[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata

2009-08-29 Thread Monica Hall

Well - I would like to agree with you wholeheartedly.

The reason why I have been pursuing this is because there is this simplistic 
argument - first put forward by Gary Boye and seized on with alacrity by at 
least one other person - that because Granata has included these pieces for 
an instrument which they believe had an extended bass range Granata intended 
all his guitar music to be played with octave stringing on both the fourth 
and fifth courses.


At one point one point one person seemed about to claim that because the 
Gallot ms. includes music for guitarre theorbe all the music in that source 
was intended for double octave stringing too.


To me this is totally illogical - and I think that Gary has had second 
thoughts himself on this.   However these instruments were strung they are 
different instruments and have nothing whatever to do with the 5-course 
guitar.


This is the point which I am most anxious to make.

Unfortunately, because ideas like this appear in books supposedly of 
scholarly status everyone repeats them parrot fashion.


The same is true of Bartolotti and his lettere tagliate.  It is as if the 
Pope had spoken ex-cathedra.


Having said that I am cautious (I hope) about suggesting that Granata's 
instrument is just some weirdo instrument of his own because I don't want to 
be accused of putting forward counter arguments which aren't well supported.


In suggesting that Granata's instrument was tuned to a higher pitch than the 
5-course I hoped I had achieved a procrustean balence.


But perhaps not.

Moica



- Original Message - 
From: "Martyn Hodgson" 

To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:00 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata





  I think the point is this: my speculation (and this is all it is - as
  is the low tuning) that Granata's basses were at the higher octave
  (like Gallot's) is that the instrument shouldn't be automatically
  thought of as a sort of archlute or theorbo playing BC and thus
  requiring a full range of normally occuring bass notes but that it was
  (like the re-entrant guitar itself I suppose) a sort of special effect
  instrument. Upper octave basses gives the basses the same level of
  brightness as an upper octave (part or full) 5th course; it allows
  basses to ring; and (as with much 18th century lute writing) it frees
  the left hand to exploit the higher reaches of the fingerboard whilst
  still providing a bass (allbeit in a high register) -  Granata exploits
  this possibility in a few places such as 1659 pages 111, 113.

   I think the thought that since all the notes are available on an
  ordinary 5 course guitar (provided of course the 5th course has at
  least one lower octave string) then why have another instrument is
  similar to suggesting that since all the notes of an 11 course
  'baroque' lute in, say, the Dm tuning can be played on a 10 course lute
  in the old tuning, why bother having such an instrument? It is, of
  course, to do with different sonorities and other playing
  possibilities. Many similar examples are possible...

  As I've said before Monica, to be quite frank I simply don't know, but
  I do think there's at least as good a case for high basses as low in
  Granata's music for this instrument even without considering the sort
  of sound from a gut low ,A of short string length and I think we need
  to face such choices. From what you say I think this is largely your
  position as well

  Martyn

  --- On Sat, 29/8/09, Monica Hall  wrote:

From: Monica Hall 
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra
atiorbata
To: "Martyn Hodgson" 
Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
Date: Saturday, 29 August, 2009, 12:19 PM

  Well - there are a whole range of unknown factors with Granata's music
  and
  for this reason I am inclined to be  cautious.
  We don't know for certain whether the 4th and 5th courses on the
  instrument
  were octave strung - or whether the 4th course was octave strung but
  not the
  5th or even if they were re-entrant and it is not easy to judge this
  from
  the music.   Each method of stringing creates problems.
  Also we need to be able to judge how competant Granata was both as a
  player
  and an arranger of music for the instrument.
  One thing that I would query.  If the basses are high they overlap
  completely with the courses on the fingerboard.   Surely this would
  mean
  that they didn't need to be any longer than the  stopped courses?
  Also it seems a bit pointless to have an instrument which is not
  capable of
  doing anything which you can't do on an ordinary guitar.
  Monica
  - Original Message -
  From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
  To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co..uk>
  Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:42 AM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atior

[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata

2009-08-29 Thread Martyn Hodgson


   I think the point is this: my speculation (and this is all it is - as
   is the low tuning) that Granata's basses were at the higher octave
   (like Gallot's) is that the instrument shouldn't be automatically
   thought of as a sort of archlute or theorbo playing BC and thus
   requiring a full range of normally occuring bass notes but that it was
   (like the re-entrant guitar itself I suppose) a sort of special effect
   instrument. Upper octave basses gives the basses the same level of
   brightness as an upper octave (part or full) 5th course; it allows
   basses to ring; and (as with much 18th century lute writing) it frees
   the left hand to exploit the higher reaches of the fingerboard whilst
   still providing a bass (allbeit in a high register) -  Granata exploits
   this possibility in a few places such as 1659 pages 111, 113.

I think the thought that since all the notes are available on an
   ordinary 5 course guitar (provided of course the 5th course has at
   least one lower octave string) then why have another instrument is
   similar to suggesting that since all the notes of an 11 course
   'baroque' lute in, say, the Dm tuning can be played on a 10 course lute
   in the old tuning, why bother having such an instrument? It is, of
   course, to do with different sonorities and other playing
   possibilities. Many similar examples are possible...

   As I've said before Monica, to be quite frank I simply don't know, but
   I do think there's at least as good a case for high basses as low in
   Granata's music for this instrument even without considering the sort
   of sound from a gut low ,A of short string length and I think we need
   to face such choices. From what you say I think this is largely your
   position as well

   Martyn

   --- On Sat, 29/8/09, Monica Hall  wrote:

 From: Monica Hall 
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra
 atiorbata
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" 
 Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
 Date: Saturday, 29 August, 2009, 12:19 PM

   Well - there are a whole range of unknown factors with Granata's music
   and
   for this reason I am inclined to be  cautious.
   We don't know for certain whether the 4th and 5th courses on the
   instrument
   were octave strung - or whether the 4th course was octave strung but
   not the
   5th or even if they were re-entrant and it is not easy to judge this
   from
   the music.   Each method of stringing creates problems.
   Also we need to be able to judge how competant Granata was both as a
   player
   and an arranger of music for the instrument.
   One thing that I would query.  If the basses are high they overlap
   completely with the courses on the fingerboard.   Surely this would
   mean
   that they didn't need to be any longer than the  stopped courses?
   Also it seems a bit pointless to have an instrument which is not
   capable of
   doing anything which you can't do on an ordinary guitar.
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co..uk>
   Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:42 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
   >
   >
   >   Presumably even if one string of the 5th course was at the lower
   octave
   >   (and I don't think we know that - do we?) the other (and that
   struck
   >   first by the thumb - as the lower basses) would be at the upper so
   that
   >   with basses at the upper octave the opening of the Preludio would
   make
   >   perfect sense and with the chord in bar two being led by an
   ambiguous
   >   aA. Of course if both of the 5th at the upper octave it forces a
   >   conclusion that the basses leading up to it are also at the uipper
   >   octave.
   >
   >   I also think we need to think more of idiomatic guitar writing
   >   (something we have both discussed and agreed) rather than a
   continuo
   >   bass lines as for a theorbo or similar.
   >
   >   Martyn
   >   --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
   >
   > From: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
   > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra
   > atiorbata
   > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   > Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 5:45 PM
   >
   >   Well I must apologise first for a very silly mistake that I have
   >   made.   In Granata's Tuning B I have not included the low octave
   >   strings on the 4th and 5th courses.  These gives a clearer and
   rather
   >   dramatic picture of the way the courses overlap.
   >
   >   I have temporarily put the corrected tuning on my
   >   [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com page.
   >
   >   I am in the process of correcting this and will then get long
   suffering
   >   Rob to swop the files.
   >
   >   No excuse r

[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata

2009-08-29 Thread Monica Hall
Well - there are a whole range of unknown factors with Granata's music and 
for this reason I am inclined to be  cautious.


We don't know for certain whether the 4th and 5th courses on the instrument 
were octave strung - or whether the 4th course was octave strung but not the 
5th or even if they were re-entrant and it is not easy to judge this from 
the music.   Each method of stringing creates problems.


Also we need to be able to judge how competant Granata was both as a player 
and an arranger of music for the instrument.


One thing that I would query.  If the basses are high they overlap 
completely with the courses on the fingerboard.   Surely this would mean 
that they didn't need to be any longer than the  stopped courses?


Also it seems a bit pointless to have an instrument which is not capable of 
doing anything which you can't do on an ordinary guitar.


Monica





- Original Message - 
From: "Martyn Hodgson" 

To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:42 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata





  Presumably even if one string of the 5th course was at the lower octave
  (and I don't think we know that - do we?) the other (and that struck
  first by the thumb - as the lower basses) would be at the upper so that
  with basses at the upper octave the opening of the Preludio would make
  perfect sense and with the chord in bar two being led by an ambiguous
  aA. Of course if both of the 5th at the upper octave it forces a
  conclusion that the basses leading up to it are also at the uipper
  octave.

  I also think we need to think more of idiomatic guitar writing
  (something we have both discussed and agreed) rather than a continuo
  bass lines as for a theorbo or similar.

  Martyn
  --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall  wrote:

From: Monica Hall 
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra
atiorbata
To: "Martyn Hodgson" 
Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 5:45 PM

  Well I must apologise first for a very silly mistake that I have
  made.   In Granata's Tuning B I have not included the low octave
  strings on the 4th and 5th courses.  These gives a clearer and rather
  dramatic picture of the way the courses overlap.

  I have temporarily put the corrected tuning on my
  [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com page.

  I am in the process of correcting this and will then get long suffering
  Rob to swop the files.

  No excuse really but at one point I was considering whether the 4th and
  5th courses were re-entrant.

  In the opening bars of the preludio there will be a drop of a 7th at
  the switch over from bass strings to 5th course if this has a low
  octave string.

  I must get the correct version sorted..

  Monica


  - Original Message -

  From: [2]Martyn Hodgson

  To: [3]Monica Hall

  Cc: [4]Vihuelalist

  Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 3:01 PM

  Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata


  Did Gary Boye explain why he had thought the basses were low? Or was it
  just on the basis of Pinnell's old Early Music article which had also
  assumed this with no explanation (as discussed in our previous
  communications) thus perpetuating a the myth.

  Regarding the representations, they may not be photographic quality but
  I would have thought the general sizing of the instrument (particularly
  the one Granata himself is shown playing) would have been roughly
  accurate.

  Martyn
  --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall  wrote:

From: Monica Hall 
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra
atiorbata
To: "Martyn Hodgson" 
Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 12:00 PM

  Well - I feel I am between the devil and the deep blue sea here.

  Gary Boye has transcribed all the music into staff notation and I
  looked through this.   I also discussed it with him and he was
  surprised at the idea that the basses might be high.

  I didn't want to commit myself too much with Granata until I have had
  time to make my own transcriptions - which is very time consuming.  I
  was more concerned to sort out Gallot first and I may make some
  revisions later.

  I do think that we need to be cautious about the way we interpret
  illustrations.   They are not intended to show the instruments in
  accurate detail.   The Rabel drawings in particular don't seem to me to
  be very reliable.

  Monica


  - Original Message -

  From: [5]Martyn Hodgson

  To: [6]Vihuelalist ; [7]Monica Hall

  Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:15 AM

  Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata


  Thank you Monica.

  As you'll know from our earlier exchanges, I agree with the conclusions
  about the guitarre theorbee. However there are a couple of significant
  points about the chitarra atiorbata which you seem to have overlooked
  or ignored and which point to a rather differen