Well - I would like to agree with you wholeheartedly.
The reason why I have been pursuing this is because there is this simplistic
argument - first put forward by Gary Boye and seized on with alacrity by at
least one other person - that because Granata has included these pieces for
an instrument which they believe had an extended bass range Granata intended
all his guitar music to be played with octave stringing on both the fourth
and fifth courses.
At one point one point one person seemed about to claim that because the
Gallot ms. includes music for guitarre theorbe all the music in that source
was intended for double octave stringing too.
To me this is totally illogical - and I think that Gary has had second
thoughts himself on this. However these instruments were strung they are
different instruments and have nothing whatever to do with the 5-course
guitar.
This is the point which I am most anxious to make.
Unfortunately, because ideas like this appear in books supposedly of
scholarly status everyone repeats them parrot fashion.
The same is true of Bartolotti and his lettere tagliate. It is as if the
Pope had spoken ex-cathedra.
Having said that I am cautious (I hope) about suggesting that Granata's
instrument is just some weirdo instrument of his own because I don't want to
be accused of putting forward counter arguments which aren't well supported.
In suggesting that Granata's instrument was tuned to a higher pitch than the
5-course I hoped I had achieved a procrustean balence.
But perhaps not.
Moica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:00 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
I think the point is this: my speculation (and this is all it is - as
is the low tuning) that Granata's basses were at the higher octave
(like Gallot's) is that the instrument shouldn't be automatically
thought of as a sort of archlute or theorbo playing BC and thus
requiring a full range of normally occuring bass notes but that it was
(like the re-entrant guitar itself I suppose) a sort of special effect
instrument. Upper octave basses gives the basses the same level of
brightness as an upper octave (part or full) 5th course; it allows
basses to ring; and (as with much 18th century lute writing) it frees
the left hand to exploit the higher reaches of the fingerboard whilst
still providing a bass (allbeit in a high register) - Granata exploits
this possibility in a few places such as 1659 pages 111, 113.
I think the thought that since all the notes are available on an
ordinary 5 course guitar (provided of course the 5th course has at
least one lower octave string) then why have another instrument is
similar to suggesting that since all the notes of an 11 course
'baroque' lute in, say, the Dm tuning can be played on a 10 course lute
in the old tuning, why bother having such an instrument? It is, of
course, to do with different sonorities and other playing
possibilities. Many similar examples are possible.......
As I've said before Monica, to be quite frank I simply don't know, but
I do think there's at least as good a case for high basses as low in
Granata's music for this instrument even without considering the sort
of sound from a gut low ,A of short string length and I think we need
to face such choices. From what you say I think this is largely your
position as well
Martyn
--- On Sat, 29/8/09, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra
atiorbata
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Saturday, 29 August, 2009, 12:19 PM
Well - there are a whole range of unknown factors with Granata's music
and
for this reason I am inclined to be cautious.
We don't know for certain whether the 4th and 5th courses on the
instrument
were octave strung - or whether the 4th course was octave strung but
not the
5th or even if they were re-entrant and it is not easy to judge this
from
the music. Each method of stringing creates problems.
Also we need to be able to judge how competant Granata was both as a
player
and an arranger of music for the instrument.
One thing that I would query. If the basses are high they overlap
completely with the courses on the fingerboard. Surely this would
mean
that they didn't need to be any longer than the stopped courses?
Also it seems a bit pointless to have an instrument which is not
capable of
doing anything which you can't do on an ordinary guitar.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co..uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:42 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
>
>
> Presumably even if one string of the 5th course was at the lower
octave
> (and I don't think we know that - do we?) the other (and that
struck
> first by the thumb - as the lower basses) would be at the upper so
that
> with basses at the upper octave the opening of the Preludio would
make
> perfect sense and with the chord in bar two being led by an
ambiguous
> aA. Of course if both of the 5th at the upper octave it forces a
> conclusion that the basses leading up to it are also at the uipper
> octave.
>
> I also think we need to think more of idiomatic guitar writing
> (something we have both discussed and agreed) rather than a
continuo
> bass lines as for a theorbo or similar.
>
> Martyn
> --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra
> atiorbata
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 5:45 PM
>
> Well I must apologise first for a very silly mistake that I have
> made. In Granata's Tuning B I have not included the low octave
> strings on the 4th and 5th courses. These gives a clearer and
rather
> dramatic picture of the way the courses overlap.
>
> I have temporarily put the corrected tuning on my
> [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com page.
>
> I am in the process of correcting this and will then get long
suffering
> Rob to swop the files.
>
> No excuse really but at one point I was considering whether the 4th
and
> 5th courses were re-entrant.
>
> In the opening bars of the preludio there will be a drop of a 7th
at
> the switch over from bass strings to 5th course if this has a low
> octave string.
>
> I must get the correct version sorted..
>
> Monica
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: [2]Martyn Hodgson
>
> To: [3]Monica Hall
>
> Cc: [4]Vihuelalist
>
> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 3:01 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra
atiorbata
>
>
> Did Gary Boye explain why he had thought the basses were low? Or
was it
> just on the basis of Pinnell's old Early Music article which had
also
> assumed this with no explanation (as discussed in our previous
> communications) thus perpetuating a the myth.....
>
> Regarding the representations, they may not be photographic quality
but
> I would have thought the general sizing of the instrument
(particularly
> the one Granata himself is shown playing) would have been roughly
> accurate.
>
> Martyn
> --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall <[8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra
> atiorbata
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[11]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 12:00 PM
>
> Well - I feel I am between the devil and the deep blue sea here.
>
> Gary Boye has transcribed all the music into staff notation and I
> looked through this. I also discussed it with him and he was
> surprised at the idea that the basses might be high.
>
> I didn't want to commit myself too much with Granata until I have
had
> time to make my own transcriptions - which is very time consuming.
I
> was more concerned to sort out Gallot first and I may make some
> revisions later.
>
> I do think that we need to be cautious about the way we interpret
> illustrations. They are not intended to show the instruments in
> accurate detail. The Rabel drawings in particular don't seem to
me to
> be very reliable.
>
> Monica
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: [5]Martyn Hodgson
>
> To: [6]Vihuelalist ; [7]Monica Hall
>
> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:15 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra
atiorbata
>
>
> Thank you Monica.
>
> As you'll know from our earlier exchanges, I agree with the
conclusions
> about the guitarre theorbee. However there are a couple of
significant
> points about the chitarra atiorbata which you seem to have
overlooked
> or ignored and which point to a rather different conclusion than
you
> (that these instruments had the basses at the low octave):
>
> 1. A duplicated bass G is not an objection to the high tuning of
the
> basses - Granata might have simply wished to have a continuous run
of
> free basses. For example to allow a fast run on them without having
to
> play the G away from the these basses and so interrupt the thumb's
> stroke. Indeed, a good example of this is in the opening Preludio
Bar 1
> ie 12 11 X 9 8 7 6 0.....
>
> 2. The engraved depictions do not show the bass extensions
'slightly
> less' than a theorbos - they are considerably and significantly
less! -
> this has a real bearing on the sound the basses make. Further, to
> suggest that this particular feature has been incorrectly
represented
> by the engraver and can therefore be ignored is, I think, working
> backwards from a presumed conclusion (ie that the basses were at
the
> low octave and thus needed to be longer than illustrated) rather
than
> taking the important evidence at its face value.
>
> Martyn
>
> --- On Thu, 27/8/09, Monica Hall <[12]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee
> To: "Vihuelalist" <[14]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Thursday, 27 August, 2009, 4:59 PM
>
> Just to let you all know that the final version of my thoughts
on
> the
> subject of the Guitarre theorbee is now on my own web page -
> [1]www.monicahall.co.uk
> It includes a staff notation transcription of all twelve pieces
from
> the Gallot manuscript.
> Monica
> --
> References
> 1. [8][15]http://www..monicahall.co.uk/
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [9][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. [17]http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/
> 2.
>
[18]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 3.
[19]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 4.
[20]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 5.
>
[21]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 6.
[22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 7.
[23]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 8. [24]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
> 9. [25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
10.
http://uk.mc263.mail..yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
15. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
17. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/
18.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
20. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
21.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
23. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
24. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
