[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
I don't think he is talking about the earliest 16th-c. publications of guitar music (hopefully), but referring to the semi-obscure, iconography-based history of things like gittern, citole, etc. The dates he gives fall in the couple centuries before the music Jocelyn offered us. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Bruno Correia Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 10:41 PM To: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Four c. guitar I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his own instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. Also look into: Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comiença la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques Pierre Verany. Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras Para Vihuela. Auvidis/Astrée. The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter two features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty guitar solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent effort: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a little. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Laura Maschi Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM To: Bruno Correia Cc: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around 2008... Enviado desde mi iPod El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com escribió: I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his own instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Eugene, You apparently can get one in the USA for about $21. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopularfield-keywords=michael+craddockx=0y=0ih=11_2_0_1_0_2_0_0_0_1.128_229fsc=-1 I have one, and it is very nice. ed At 08:58 AM 7/30/2010, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. Also look into: Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comiença la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques Pierre Verany. Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras Para Vihuela. Auvidis/Astrée. The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter two features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty guitar solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent effort: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a little. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Laura Maschi Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM To: Bruno Correia Cc: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around 2008... Enviado desde mi iPod El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com escribió: I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his own instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Well, that is reasonable. Thanks for this word! Last I looked, Amazon vendors (not Amazon directly) were asking in the neighborhood of US$50 for Craddock's disc. I'm guessing they didn't sell many at that price. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: Edward Martin [mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com] Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 10:33 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene, You apparently can get one in the USA for about $21. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopularfield- keywords=michael+craddockx=0y=0ih=11_2_0_1_0_2_0_0_0_1.128_229fsc=-1 I have one, and it is very nice. ed At 08:58 AM 7/30/2010, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. Also look into: Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comiença la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques Pierre Verany. Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras Para Vihuela. Auvidis/Astrée. The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter two features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty guitar solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent effort: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a little. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Laura Maschi Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM To: Bruno Correia Cc: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around 2008... Enviado desde mi iPod El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com escribió: I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his own instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. Also look into: Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comiença la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of actually taking the trouble to edit them out. Stuart Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques Pierre Verany. Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras Para Vihuela. Auvidis/Astrée. The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter two features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty guitar solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent effort: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a little. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Laura Maschi Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM To: Bruno Correia Cc: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around 2008... Enviado desde mi iPod El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com escribió: I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his own instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stuart Walsh Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. Also look into: Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comiença la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of actually taking the trouble to edit them out. Stuart Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques Pierre Verany. Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras Para Vihuela. Auvidis/Astrée. The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter two features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty guitar solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent effort: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a little. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Laura Maschi Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM To: Bruno Correia Cc: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around 2008... Enviado desde mi iPod El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com escribió: I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his own instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Yes - this is a bit of a vexed question. I suspect that in the 16th/17th century players did create their own versions and elaborations - especially when many of the pieces are very short and last less than a minute. The problem today perhaps is that not all players are inspired enough to do this well. Monica - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'List LUTELIST' l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stuart Walsh Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. Also look into: Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comiença la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of actually taking the trouble to edit them out. Stuart Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques Pierre Verany. Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras Para Vihuela. Auvidis/Astrée. The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter two features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty guitar solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent effort: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a little. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Laura Maschi Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM To: Bruno Correia Cc: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around 2008... Enviado desde mi iPod El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com escribió: I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his own instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained that Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of improvisation, but a serious composition should not have such things. Then back to the improvisation class where we saw an example of Monteverdi writing a series of disminuaciones and ornamentaciones in a singer's part -- to be performed exactly as written! Ostensibly, they were to sound improvised??? And of course, there's continuo, which is essentially structured improvisation. I think the bottom line is, there were lots of cases where improvisation was appropriate, and lots where it wasn't. In other words, um... er... Well, you know... cud __ From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: List LUTELIST l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 11:39:51 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stuart Walsh Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. Also look into: Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comienc,a la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of actually taking the trouble to edit them out. Stuart Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques Pierre Verany. Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras Para Vihuela. Auvidis/Astree. The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter two features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty guitar solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent effort: [3]http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a little. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Laura Maschi Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM To: Bruno Correia Cc: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around 2008... Enviado desde mi iPod El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia [6]bruno.l...@gmail.com escribio: I think John Williams never read anything
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
I think you have hit the nail on the head. The problem with the baroque guitar is that everyone seems to treat it as fair game for anything ethnic/new agey. I am inclined to think this is a mistake! Monica - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'List LUTELIST' l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:26 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained that Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of improvisation, but a serious composition should not have such things. Then back to the improvisation class where we saw an example of Monteverdi writing a series of disminuaciones and ornamentaciones in a singer's part -- to be performed exactly as written! Ostensibly, they were to sound improvised??? And of course, there's continuo, which is essentially structured improvisation. I think the bottom line is, there were lots of cases where improvisation was appropriate, and lots where it wasn't. In other words, um... er... Well, you know... cud __ From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: List LUTELIST l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 11:39:51 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stuart Walsh Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. Also look into: Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comienc,a la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of actually taking the trouble to edit them out. Stuart Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques Pierre Verany. Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Dear List, Thank you for the kind words and encouragement for my CD and videos! Yes, I agree improvised embellishment has to do with the genre and function of the music, and only makes sense in historically well-informed contexts. For instance, I wouldn't feel comfortable embellishing most fantasies, other than an occasional cadential emphasis or strummed flourish. But in regard to those scalar diminutions in many of Le Roy's dances that we discussed on this list some months back: I hear those as suggested embellishments; the player has many options in those passages. As for accompaniment: I arranged much of my accompaniment to the songs on my CD. I did most of them both as written and also arranged, in different verses. In fact, I was still arranging when we recorded, in short 10-minute breaks for instance with my pencil and tab, and sometimes I even tried new things as we recorded. (Very exciting when your singer only has a few hours to record with you before her flight home.) The written 4-course guitar parts in the songbooks published in mid-16th century France have been the subject of some discussion: were they meant to be played as written with the singer even though the guitar parts have the entire melody? Or was the guitar part only for guitar solo and if the singer takes the melody, should the guitarist let the singer have it and do something else? I discuss this in my CD notes. Best, Jocelyn -- Jocelyn Nelson, DMA Teaching Assistant Professor Early Guitar, Music History 336 Fletcher Music Center School of Music East Carolina University 252.328.1255 office 252.328.6258 fax [1]nels...@ecu.edu ___ From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:50:48 -0400 To: Eugene C. Braig IV [3]brai...@osu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar I think you have hit the nail on the head. The problem with the baroque guitar is that everyone seems to treat it as fair game for anything ethnic/new agey. I am inclined to think this is a mistake! Monica - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [5]brai...@osu.edu To: 'List LUTELIST' [6]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; 'Vihuelalist' [7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:26 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: [8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[9]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained that Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of improvisation, but a serious composition should not have such things. Then back to the improvisation class where we saw an
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Well... I for one am very much for autenticity, but by Jove, there should also be room for experimentation. Lets not get fundamentalist here. There is too much fundamentalism in this world already unfortunately! Live and let live, to each its own and all that. I quite like the New Agey stuff, I must say. And the authenticity is not going to disappear because of experimentation or do you really think so? There should be room for all IMO... Best G. - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 6:50 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar I think you have hit the nail on the head. The problem with the baroque guitar is that everyone seems to treat it as fair game for anything ethnic/new agey. I am inclined to think this is a mistake! Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Believe it or not, I agree. A musician should perform what s/he would like. If I don't like it, I won't buy it. If you do, there is no shame in your taste differing from mine. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of G. Crona Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 1:06 PM To: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Well... I for one am very much for autenticity, but by Jove, there should also be room for experimentation. Lets not get fundamentalist here. There is too much fundamentalism in this world already unfortunately! Live and let live, to each its own and all that. I quite like the New Agey stuff, I must say. And the authenticity is not going to disappear because of experimentation or do you really think so? There should be room for all IMO... Best G. - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 6:50 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar I think you have hit the nail on the head. The problem with the baroque guitar is that everyone seems to treat it as fair game for anything ethnic/new agey. I am inclined to think this is a mistake! Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene I hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays very beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the original but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some strange inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as a musician, hears the music. (And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all over the place) What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the little vamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the vamp figure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a very attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it into something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out 'plus diminueé') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just play it twice. opening (Ex1) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex1.mp3 middle Ex2) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex2.mp3 Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained that Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of improvisation, but a serious composition should not have such things. Then back to the improvisation class where we saw an example of Monteverdi writing a series of disminuaciones and ornamentaciones in a singer's part -- to be performed exactly as written! Ostensibly, they were to sound improvised??? And of course, there's continuo, which is essentially structured improvisation. I think the bottom line is, there were lots of cases where improvisation was appropriate, and lots where it wasn't. In other words, um... er... Well, you know... cud __ From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: List LUTELIST l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 11:39:51 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stuart Walsh Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down at
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Chris Despopoulos wrote: Interesting... I didn't find this to be so much out of character. If anything, I would want to hear it played a little bolder perhaps. A branle is a dance, and the same tune was probably repeated many times. It had to be embellished. What if the crowd needed a moment to get back to the starting position before commencing again? THrow in a little vamp. Yes, but...probably the little four-course guitar was not providing dance music for a crowd. And the four-course guitar dance arrangements were probably not intended to provide music for any dancers (though it's possible). The LeRoy guitar books have a selection of dances, chanson settings and fantasias, they're not dance books per se, like the Gervaise publications (though some tunes in Gervaise are in LeRoy). And Massimo Lonardi isn't a live recording from a dance event, trying to adjust to errant dancers. Stuart Well, all this is speculation. Really, period musicians should study dances of the time just to get a better sense of the situation. I'm hoping for a chance to do that some day. But this year I think my big lesson is that much of the music was functional. And so the chore in front of me now is to learn more about those functions. cud *From:* Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com *To:* Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu *Cc:* List LUTELIST l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu *Sent:* Fri, July 30, 2010 2:03:31 PM *Subject:* [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene I hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays very beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the original but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some strange inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as a musician, hears the music. (And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all over the place) What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the little vamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the vamp figure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a very attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it into something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out 'plus diminueé') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just play it twice. opening (Ex1) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex1.mp3 middle Ex2) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex2.mp3 Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained that
