[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Stewart, As you'll have seen from recent (and indeed earlier) postings, my view is also that most contemporary strumming indications (ie first decades of 17th century) only give a rough indication of some of the more sophisticated patterns I believe were employed - perhaps first even on the humble 4 course instrument. Certainly Valdambrini's patterns (see the example mentioned earlier) indicates a degree of technical expertise allowing such complex patterns. However, I don't think this is quite the same as saying, as I think Lex does, that players (even the amateurs at which the tablatures are often aimed) would have routinely (perhaps even always) sought to avoid inversions by selective strumming. Strumming is more to do with the texture and rhetoric of the music: strummed chords in solo music and song accompaniment are more platonic models of chords than thorough bass realisations (with strict voice leading etc) - see earlier postings. rgds Martyn --- On Fri, 19/11/10, Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 1:03 Dear Monica, The changes you describe came much earlier. Adding contrapuntal parts to a tenor was the sort of thing musicians were doing at the end of the 15th and early part of the 16th century. The most popular tenor at that time seems to have been La Spagna. It is significant that Diego Ortiz treats this old tenor as a bass line in 1553. Triads were not new in the 17th century. They had certainly been around a lot earlier than that, and were pretty well established by the 15th century. Composers like Dufay made much use of them. You have only to look at 15th-century pieces played on the lute with a plectrum to see how a polyphonic texture was filled out here and there with triadic chords. Some of the dance pieces in Dalza's collection of lute music (1508) are based on simple grounds or chord sequences, and we have strumming of sorts on the lute with Newsidler's Durchstreicher in 1536. -o-O-o- As far as strumming on the guitar is concerned, the actual notes played cannot always be notated accurately, because a skilled strummer will not strike all the strings of a chord every time. He may, for example, choose to strike all the strings for a strong down-stroke, but catch just the first few strings with a lighter strum on the up-stroke. The limitations of notating strumming: 1) It is possible to say what the chord is, by giving an alfabeto symbol (e.g. A, B, C), or a chord name (G, C, D7), or tablature of various kinds, or staff notation, or chord shapes like this: | | | | | | |__|__|__|__|__| | | | | | | |__|__|__x__|__x | | | | | | |__|__|__|__x__| | | | | | | | | | | | | 2) It is possible to notate the direction of strums (up and down), and, as you know, there were different ways of doing this in the 17th century. 3) It is impossible to say exactly how many strings are actually struck at any one time. This is what all the various notations fail to convey accurately. Anyone writing about strumming would find it difficult to describe what is, by its very nature, a fluid, variable technique. To strum all the strings all the time would be dreadfully dull. I can happily accept Lex's view that a player would have been selective in which strings he chose to strum at any particular time, and that he would have been aware (to a greater or lesser extent) of the effect his bourdons, assuming he had them, may have had in the course of a piece, irrespective of whether or not he could read the notes in staff notation printed under his alfabeto. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 17 November 2010 17:14 To: Lex Eisenhardt Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence Our ready ear is very much influenced/spoiled by functional harmony, I'm afraid. I suppose it went wrong so often (then) because the trick of finding the appropriate harmonies was to add 'middle voices' to a bass and soprano. I think you are mistaken here because throughout the 16th century general practice was to add contrapuntal parts to a tenor voice. The shift to working from the bass took place at the beginning of the 17th century. The practice of basso continuo was new and not well established at the time many of these songs were composed. It started off as a way of creating a keyboard accompaniment to mainly polyphonic works. Underlying this discussion is the idea that it is somehow
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Lex,
Well, it just goes to show how such a protracted exchange can become as
Chinese whispers. I had gained the impression that this (ie
principally avoidance of inversions in alfabeto) was the issue -
including of course non-BC bourdon use with which it is inextricably
entwined. I can therefore see little practical difference between any
of these vigorously defended positions. If there is any significant
difference after all that has been said, would you and Monica kindly
(in a sentence) summarise the res as they see it.
Martyn
--- On Fri, 19/11/10, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 9:49
Dear Martyn,
you wrote:
However, I don't think this is quite the same as saying, as I
think Lex
does, that players (even the amateurs at which the tablatures are
often
aimed) would have routinely (perhaps even always) sought to avoid
inversions by selective strumming.
What makes you think that I believe that??
I have no idea what was done routinely ('even [by] the amateurs'),
and
do not pretend to know what was (perhaps) always done. Nor what was
_
never_ done, for that matter.
best wishes, Lex
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[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
The shift had taken place by then. I don't know if you have seen the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book but it includes six songs with what are in effect written out guitar accompaniments. It gives you a clear idea of how he expected the songs to be accompanied. Sanseverino's six (dance-) songs are accompaniments to well-known melodies. The songs of Marini, Berti and so many others were new compositions, provided with the harmony of a basso continuo. The alfabeto could well have been inscribed by the composer himself, as we assume of Biagio Marini, for example. I get the impression that Alex Dean thinks it was a two way process. But perhaps I have not understood what he is saying, Do you? Several people have assumed that the guitar was 'at the forefront of the revolution from the horizontal to the vertical' (Craig Russell). We could discuss Alex Dean's thesis here, which perhaps not many will have read. It is a very complexe issue, and my point of view (for now) would be that the guitar was deeply involved in a genre (of little songs) in which we can recognise very specific compositional strategies. Dean gives good examples of a modular compositional style, based on small, sequenced melodic and rhythmic motives. For me the question remains where it all began. Is the way the alfabeto accompaniment is shaped a reaction on an broader autonomous development or should it be seen as a driving force? [could we please have this discussion in Dutch ?:~) ] It seems to me that the simplicity of clear-cut standard progressions of the dance-like accompaniment of the omnipresent guitar could well have influenced the developments in some ways. After all, the idea behind the genre of villanella, scherzo or arietta is a sincere simplicity, to which plain strummed accompaniment suits so well. I have more doubts about the role of the guitar in the transition to tonal thinking. It could be that alfabeto harmony (whatever that is) merely reflects what was going on in the outside musical world. The experienced theorbist-guitarist could use lute tablature for this purpose. And a performer? Surely they are one and the same? No they are not. We cannot tell how someone like Foscarini, of whom we have no songs, would have shaped his accompaniment to a song by Marini or Landi. But we are so fortunate to have his BC instructions, even if they are late. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Chris, I have in mind pieces like this Calata ala spagnola from Dalza's collection printed in 1508: [1]http://www.gerbode.net/ft2/sources/dalza_intabulatura_v4_1508/50v.pn g The piece is constructed on a simple, repeated bass line giving root-position chords. In fact, there are slight discrepancies as you go through the piece, which suggest either a bar or two missing or a free attitude to the chord sequence, but the piece is certainly not polyphonic, and one could be excused for imagining it had been written 100 years later. An example of Newsidler's Durchstreicher - downward strums with the thumb - can be seen at [2]http://www.gerbode.net/ft2/sources/hnewsidler/1536_1/x2.jpg Again, the texture is not a strictly polyphonic one. Filling out chords for lute music played with a plectrum may be seen in the Pesaro manuscipt kept at the Biblioteca Oliveriana. I'm afraid I don't know if any of the music is available on the internet. There is a facsimile in print, but unfortunately I don't have a copy. You can see some of the music in facsimile in the booklet which accompanies Andrea Dammiani's CD of music from that manuscript, CD EL962305. The music in this manuscript dates from the latter part of the 15th century. The trouble with plectrums (as with bows on a viol) is that you are forced into playing chords involving notes on adjacent strings. For example, one piece ends as follows: |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ | |\ |\ |\ | | | | | | | | | | | _1___1___ _1___5___1___ _4___2___1___2___1___2___ _3___3___ _3___3___ _1___ That was in Neapolitan tablature. It would look like this in French tablature: |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ | |\ |\ |\ | | | | | | | | | | | _a___a___ _a___e___a___ _d___b___a___b___a___b___ _c___c___ _c___c___ _a___ A strictly polyphonic version playable with fingers may have been something like: |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ | |\ |\ |\ | | | | | | | | | | | _a___a___ _e___ _d___b___a___b___a___ _c___c___ _c___ _a___ There are so many examples of chord progressions throughout the 16th century, it is difficult to know where to start. Paccaloni's lute trios is a happy hunting ground, as is Diego Ortiz's book of improvisation on the viol. As I understand it, during the 15th century temperament changed from one which had favoured perfect fifths to one which favoured major thirds. Composers like Machaut in the 14th century had tended to avoid major triads, whereas composers like Dufay in the 15th century made great use of them. Instrumentalists filling out a polyphonic texture with triads soon followed. I regard this fundamental change in temperament a far more significant milestone in the history of music than the transition from renaissance to baroque. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Chris Despopoulos [mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com] Sent: 19 November 2010 07:30 To: Stewart McCoy Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence Dear Stewart... You say: Some of the dance pieces in Dalza's collection of lute music (1508) are based on simple grounds or chord sequences, and we have strumming of sorts on the lute with Newsidler's Durchstreicher in 1536. I find this interesting. In my reading of 2nd- and probably 3rd-hand sources (or even further removed), I'm led to believe that grounding musical structure on chordal progression was an innovation of the Baroque... if not THE innovation. Of course, drawing distinct lines between phases of musical development is no easier than drawing distinct lines between species. But for the unwashed that's a helpful distinction. I wonder if you can amplify a little on the above to shed light on the transition... For example, was there a gradual build-up that led away from voice textures to chord textures? Or was this a punctuated transition -- an explosion of forms and variations, if you will? The dance pieces you mention, being simple and probably repeated cycles (I'm guessing), make sense as examples where musicians would recognize that voice textures yield repeated patterns (chords or triads), and can be simplified. Also, I wonder if there's any hope of accessing popular music of the time -- was it all modal, or were there chord progressions (shifting of modes within the piece, if you will)? Or have
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Thanks much... In practice, I'm moving slowly back in time. I will have to come to grips with the Renaissance sooner or later, in terms of understanding and practice. Well, that's the goal, at any rate. You open great areas to explore. In fact, I'm confronted with choosing which instrument to explore... given a limited budget. R. Guitar, Lute, or Vihuela? So much beauty, so little time (and money). Cheers cud __ From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, November 19, 2010 7:30:48 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence Dear Chris, I have in mind pieces like this Calata ala spagnola from Dalza's collection printed in 1508: [1][1]http://www.gerbode.net/ft2/sources/dalza_intabulatura_v4_1508/50v .pn g The piece is constructed on a simple, repeated bass line giving root-position chords. In fact, there are slight discrepancies as you go through the piece, which suggest either a bar or two missing or a free attitude to the chord sequence, but the piece is certainly not polyphonic, and one could be excused for imagining it had been written 100 years later. An example of Newsidler's Durchstreicher - downward strums with the thumb - can be seen at [2][2]http://www.gerbode.net/ft2/sources/hnewsidler/1536_1/x2.jpg Again, the texture is not a strictly polyphonic one. Filling out chords for lute music played with a plectrum may be seen in the Pesaro manuscipt kept at the Biblioteca Oliveriana. I'm afraid I don't know if any of the music is available on the internet. There is a facsimile in print, but unfortunately I don't have a copy. You can see some of the music in facsimile in the booklet which accompanies Andrea Dammiani's CD of music from that manuscript, CD EL962305. The music in this manuscript dates from the latter part of the 15th century. The trouble with plectrums (as with bows on a viol) is that you are forced into playing chords involving notes on adjacent strings. For example, one piece ends as follows: |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ | |\ |\ |\ | | | | | | | | | | | _1___1___ _1___5___1___ _4___2___1___2___1___2___ _3___3___ _3___3___ _1___ That was in Neapolitan tablature. It would look like this in French tablature: |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ | |\ |\ |\ | | | | | | | | | | | _a___a___ _a___e___a___ _d___b___a___b___a___b___ _c___c___ _c___c___ _a___ A strictly polyphonic version playable with fingers may have been something like: |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ | |\ |\ |\ | | | | | | | | | | | _a___a___ _e___ _d___b___a___b___a___ _c___c___ _c___ _a___ There are so many examples of chord progressions throughout the 16th century, it is difficult to know where to start. Paccaloni's lute trios is a happy hunting ground, as is Diego Ortiz's book of improvisation on the viol. As I understand it, during the 15th century temperament changed from one which had favoured perfect fifths to one which favoured major thirds. Composers like Machaut in the 14th century had tended to avoid major triads, whereas composers like Dufay in the 15th century made great use of them. Instrumentalists filling out a polyphonic texture with triads soon followed. I regard this fundamental change in temperament a far more significant milestone in the history of music than the transition from renaissance to baroque. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Chris Despopoulos [mailto:[3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com] Sent: 19 November 2010 07:30 To: Stewart McCoy Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence Dear Stewart... You say: Some of the dance pieces in Dalza's collection of lute music (1508) are based on simple grounds or chord sequences, and we have strumming of sorts on the lute with Newsidler's Durchstreicher in 1536. I find this interesting. In my reading of 2nd- and probably 3rd-hand sources (or even further removed), I'm led to believe that grounding musical structure on chordal progression was an innovation of the Baroque... if not THE innovation. Of course, drawing distinct lines between phases of musical
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Sanseverino's six (dance-) songs are accompaniments to well-known melodies. Obviously you haven't seen them. (They are not the same songs included in the 1620 edition). They are songs which were currently in the repertoire at the time - Rontani's Caldi sospiri to name but one. This had apppeared with basso continuo in a song book printed in Florence in 1614 without alfabeto and was reprinted in Rome with alfabeto in 1623. The songs of Marini, Berti and so many others were new compositions, provided with the harmony of a basso continuo. The alfabeto could well have been inscribed by the composer himself, as we assume of Biagio Marini, for example. I am sure that it was and if you read what Marini has said and study how he has added the alfabeto to the songs you can see that he had in mind something quite different from what you seem to think [could we please have this discussion in Dutch ?:~) ] Double Dutch perhaps. What you are saying sounds like pedantry to me. what was going on in Surely they are one and the same? No they are not. I think you are mistaken. Most of these song books are not intended for amateurs (although amateurs may have performed cf. Schubert lieder). This is clear from the voice part. They are intended for accomplished singers - of whom there would have been a large number in Italy where every church and cathedral had a body of professional singers. We cannot tell how someone like Foscarini, of whom we have no songs, would have shaped his accompaniment to a song by Marini or Landi. But we are so fortunate to have his BC instructions, even if they are late. That is the point isn't it. They are included in the latest (surviving) edition of his work - 1640 - not the earlier one. But sources from the 1620s tell a different story. We don't even know if he would ever have accompanied these songs - which according to you were going out of style by 1640. But some of the pieces in his 1629 book and that of Colonna are clearly intended to be accompaniments to songs in fashion at the time. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Them's my sentiments too!!! Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:42 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence Dear Stewart, As you'll have seen from recent (and indeed earlier) postings, my view is also that most contemporary strumming indications (ie first decades of 17th century) only give a rough indication of some of the more sophisticated patterns I believe were employed - perhaps first even on the humble 4 course instrument. Certainly Valdambrini's patterns (see the example mentioned earlier) indicates a degree of technical expertise allowing such complex patterns. However, I don't think this is quite the same as saying, as I think Lex does, that players (even the amateurs at which the tablatures are often aimed) would have routinely (perhaps even always) sought to avoid inversions by selective strumming. Strumming is more to do with the texture and rhetoric of the music: strummed chords in solo music and song accompaniment are more platonic models of chords than thorough bass realisations (with strict voice leading etc) - see earlier postings. rgds Martyn --- On Fri, 19/11/10, Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 1:03 Dear Monica, The changes you describe came much earlier. Adding contrapuntal parts to a tenor was the sort of thing musicians were doing at the end of the 15th and early part of the 16th century. The most popular tenor at that time seems to have been La Spagna. It is significant that Diego Ortiz treats this old tenor as a bass line in 1553. Triads were not new in the 17th century. They had certainly been around a lot earlier than that, and were pretty well established by the 15th century. Composers like Dufay made much use of them. You have only to look at 15th-century pieces played on the lute with a plectrum to see how a polyphonic texture was filled out here and there with triadic chords. Some of the dance pieces in Dalza's collection of lute music (1508) are based on simple grounds or chord sequences, and we have strumming of sorts on the lute with Newsidler's Durchstreicher in 1536. -o-O-o- As far as strumming on the guitar is concerned, the actual notes played cannot always be notated accurately, because a skilled strummer will not strike all the strings of a chord every time. He may, for example, choose to strike all the strings for a strong down-stroke, but catch just the first few strings with a lighter strum on the up-stroke. The limitations of notating strumming: 1) It is possible to say what the chord is, by giving an alfabeto symbol (e.g. A, B, C), or a chord name (G, C, D7), or tablature of various kinds, or staff notation, or chord shapes like this: | | | | | | |__|__|__|__|__| | | | | | | |__|__|__x__|__x | | | | | | |__|__|__|__x__| | | | | | | | | | | | | 2) It is possible to notate the direction of strums (up and down), and, as you know, there were different ways of doing this in the 17th century. 3) It is impossible to say exactly how many strings are actually struck at any one time. This is what all the various notations fail to convey accurately. Anyone writing about strumming would find it difficult to describe what is, by its very nature, a fluid, variable technique. To strum all the strings all the time would be dreadfully dull. I can happily accept Lex's view that a player would have been selective in which strings he chose to strum at any particular time, and that he would have been aware (to a greater or lesser extent) of the effect his bourdons, assuming he had them, may have had in the course of a piece, irrespective of whether or not he could read the notes in staff notation printed under his alfabeto. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 17 November 2010 17:14 To: Lex Eisenhardt Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence Our ready ear is very much influenced/spoiled by functional harmony, I'm afraid. I suppose it went wrong so often (then) because the trick of finding the appropriate harmonies was to add 'middle voices' to a bass and soprano. I think you are mistaken here because throughout the 16th century general practice was to add contrapuntal parts to a tenor voice. The shift to working from the bass took place at the beginning of the 17th century. The practice of basso continuo was new and not well established at the time many of
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
I'll let Lex do that first.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: [1]Martyn Hodgson
To: [2]Vihuelalist ; [3]Lex Eisenhardt ; [4]Monica Hall
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Lex,
Well, it just goes to show how such a protracted exchange can become as
Chinese whispers. I had gained the impression that this (ie
principally avoidance of inversions in alfabeto) was the issue -
including of course non-BC bourdon use with which it is inextricably
entwined. I can therefore see little practical difference between any
of these vigorously defended positions. If there is any significant
difference after all that has been said, would you and Monica kindly
(in a sentence) summarise the res as they see it.
Martyn
--- On Fri, 19/11/10, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 9:49
Dear Martyn,
you wrote:
However, I don't think this is quite the same as saying, as I
think Lex
does, that players (even the amateurs at which the tablatures are
often
aimed) would have routinely (perhaps even always) sought to avoid
inversions by selective strumming.
What makes you think that I believe that??
I have no idea what was done routinely ('even [by] the amateurs'),
and
do not pretend to know what was (perhaps) always done. Nor what was
_
never_ done, for that matter.
best wishes, Lex
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[VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Monica, Many thanks for your reply to my email about strumming. We agree that a good guitarist wouldn't always feel obliged to strum every available string of a chord all the time. We also agree that guitarists had long been happy with the wrong inversion of a chord - in particular, second inversions. Where we differ, I think, is whether someone strumming a guitar with bourdons may have chosen to avoid some of the lower notes of a chord, where they would otherwise interfere with a bass line, like the bass notes played on a spinet for that song by Stefano Landi. To this I would ask, why is that guitarists in the 17th century chose to string their guitars without bourdons? By doing that, they drastically reduce the overall range of the instrument, and different courses end up duplicating each other by sounding notes at the same pitch. It seems a very strange thing to want to do, yet so many guitarists chose to string their guitars that way. Having a re-entrant tuning enables one to play lots of fancy campanellas, of course, but I suspect that this was not why the bourdons were removed in the first place. My guess, (and it would be lovely if you could confirm it to be right), is that the bourdons were removed for the sake of strumming. Second inversions were not such a problem per se, especially if there was another instrument supplying the true bass, but a second inversion involving a wrong note sounding below the bass, or one which was particularly low in pitch, was not satisfactory. Assuming that to be the case, the guitarist has two ways of avoiding those low, unwanted notes. Either he avoids playing them, as Lex has maintained was a possibility, or he gets rid of the bourdons altogether, so that he can strum to his heart's content without having to worry about having to miss out the odd unfelicitous low note. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 19 November 2010 12:18 To: Stewart McCoy Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence Triads were not new in the 17th century. They had certainly been around a lot earlier than that, and were pretty well established by the 15th century. Composers like Dufay made much use of them. You have only to look at 15th-century pieces played on the lute with a plectrum to see how a polyphonic texture was filled out here and there with triadic chords. I think you are taking everything I have said literally and out of context. There is a difference between consonances made up of the notes of a triad and a recognization of the relationship between them. It is not that these things are new in the sense that no-one had ever thought them before. Rather there is a shift of emphasis with the emmergence of the seconda prattica. It is obvious in the 4-course repertoire that there are the same chords which are found in the 5-course repertoire but without the fifth course and these may have been strummed. These are on the margins so to speak. As far as strumming on the guitar is concerned, the actual notes played cannot always be notated accurately, because a skilled strummer will not strike all the strings of a chord every time. He may, for example, choose to strike all the strings for a strong down-stroke, but catch just the first few strings with a lighter strum on the up-stroke. I have no problem at all with the idea that there would be different strumming patterns to create a contrast in texture but I do not agree with you or Lex that ensuring that the chords were in the correct inversions was an issue. It is an entirely modern obsession. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
To answer Martyn's question I can only summarize my position:
I think that it is possible that players ('amateurs' or not) have left out
the fifth course in certain occasions.
No more no less
To which I should add however:
that I suppose there have individually different approaches and different
repertoires, at different times (such as sung dances and basso continuo
songs), in which players could have done differently.
Then to Monica's remarks:
Sanseverino's six (dance-) songs are accompaniments to well-known
melodies.
Obviously you haven't seen them.
Actually, I checked them this morning. Leading Musicologists nowadays treat
such repertoire as dance-songs.
I am sure that it was and if you read what Marini has said and study how
he
has added the alfabeto to the songs you can see that he had in mind
something quite different from what you seem to think
There's the Chinese whispering again.
[could we please have
this discussion in Dutch ?:~) ]
Double Dutch perhaps. What you are saying sounds like pedantry to me.
You asked me what I thought of Alexander Dean's views, to which I answered
quite seriously.
If you don't agree, please be so kind to explain.
I think you are mistaken. Most of these song books are not intended for
amateurs
Which I didn't say. But even if they were, what is your problem?
About Foscarini:
we are so fortunate to have his BC instructions, even if they are late.
That is the point isn't it. They are included in the latest (surviving)
edition of his work - 1640 - not the earlier one. But sources from the
1620s tell a different
story.
And songs from the 1630s?
Should we really suppose that Foscarini's instructions don't apply for
anything from before 1640?
Lex
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[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Indeed, the Platonic chord.. --- On Fri, 19/11/10, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence To: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk, Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 14:01 Another point of re-entrant tuning that any self-respecting ukulele player would understand, is that of chord voicing. It's notoriously difficult to voice close intervals on the guitar... hence difficult to directly transcribe piano music to the guitar, for example. With re-entrant tuning that difficulty goes away. It could be that the resulting voicings sounded better to players at the time. For me it's a revelation... voicings that once were restricted to possibilities inherent in open strings can now be had anywhere on the neck. Of course, I give up a lower range... It's a very different instrument without the bass, but no less valid or interesting. Intuitively, I also suspect that keeping the number of courses at 5 indicates at least some tendancy to think and hear in terms of the higher register, bordones or no. As long as you think that way, then a 6th course for the E string is strictly redundant. Only when you use it to extend the bass range does it shed that redundancy. I'm sure there was a period during which guitars had 5 courses but players thought in terms of extending into the bass. Then the 6-course guitar arrived, but as I understand it, it was short-lived and quickly replaced with the stringing we use in the modern 6-string guitar. But after the fact, to me the period of time devoted to 5 courses indicates re-entrant thinking, and not the opposite. Strictly intuition, but there it is. cud __ From: Stewart McCoy [1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuela List [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, November 19, 2010 8:16:36 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence Dear Monica, Many thanks for your reply to my email about strumming. We agree that a good guitarist wouldn't always feel obliged to strum every available string of a chord all the time. We also agree that guitarists had long been happy with the wrong inversion of a chord - in particular, second inversions. Where we differ, I think, is whether someone strumming a guitar with bourdons may have chosen to avoid some of the lower notes of a chord, where they would otherwise interfere with a bass line, like the bass notes played on a spinet for that song by Stefano Landi. To this I would ask, why is that guitarists in the 17th century chose to string their guitars without bourdons? By doing that, they drastically reduce the overall range of the instrument, and different courses end up duplicating each other by sounding notes at the same pitch. It seems a very strange thing to want to do, yet so many guitarists chose to string their guitars that way. Having a re-entrant tuning enables one to play lots of fancy campanellas, of course, but I suspect that this was not why the bourdons were removed in the first place. My guess, (and it would be lovely if you could confirm it to be right), is that the bourdons were removed for the sake of strumming. Second inversions were not such a problem per se, especially if there was another instrument supplying the true bass, but a second inversion involving a wrong note sounding below the bass, or one which was particularly low in pitch, was not satisfactory. Assuming that to be the case, the guitarist has two ways of avoiding those low, unwanted notes. Either he avoids playing them, as Lex has maintained was a possibility, or he gets rid of the bourdons altogether, so that he can strum to his heart's content without having to worry about having to miss out the odd unfelicitous low note. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: [1][3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2][4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 19 November 2010 12:18 To: Stewart McCoy Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence Triads were not new in the 17th century. They had certainly been around a lot earlier than that, and were pretty well established by the 15th century. Composers like Dufay made much use of them. You have only to look at 15th-century pieces played on the lute with a plectrum to see how a polyphonic texture was
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
My understanding was that inversions were against the rules until the Middle Baroque. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 9:21 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence Dear Stewart, You write: 'My guess, (and it would be lovely if you could confirm it to be right), is that the bourdons were removed for the sake of strumming. Second inversions were not such a problem per se, especially if there was another instrument supplying the true bass, but a second inversion involving a wrong note sounding below the bass, or one which was particularly low in pitch, was not satisfactory.' As you'll have seen from my previous postings I really do not consider these inversions problematical (neither I think does Monica but she can, and will, speak for herself) and indeed even the earlier generation of 4 course guitarists generally didn't either. As pointed out recently and many other times over the past year or so during this discussion thread (how time flies) these guitar alfabeto chords are a sort of platonic form of a particular harmony. Just as Plato invents the concept of a form of a chair (his example) but without relating it to any particular chair to explain how we identify such an object, so the chord produced by guitar strumming is a harmony. Such is even the practice today - for example in popular music I really don't think most guitar strummers are over bothered about the fine progression of the bass line. This is particularly the case if the treble of the bass pair is placed so as to be struck first by the thumb/downwards strum so that there is a further imprecision in the auditor's ear as to the precise pitch of the lowest notes in the chord. Indeed, I can well imagine an entirely different scenario to you whereby the re-entrant nature of octave basses became an attraction in itself by allowing various idiomatic styles (such as campanellas) to be developed without drastically changing the platonic chord ability. I'm afraid a further problem with suggesting that the avoidance of bourdons on the 4th and 5th avoids inversions is that it doesn't. Play almost any common chord other than G, A and maybe B and Bb and you have an inversion with the third course as the lowest. rgds Martyn --- On Fri, 19/11/10, Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 13:16 Dear Monica, Many thanks for your reply to my email about strumming. We agree that a good guitarist wouldn't always feel obliged to strum every available string of a chord all the time. We also agree that guitarists had long been happy with the wrong inversion of a chord - in particular, second inversions. Where we differ, I think, is whether someone strumming a guitar with bourdons may have chosen to avoid some of the lower notes of a chord, where they would otherwise interfere with a bass line, like the bass notes played on a spinet for that song by Stefano Landi. To this I would ask, why is that guitarists in the 17th century chose to string their guitars without bourdons? By doing that, they drastically reduce the overall range of the instrument, and different courses end up duplicating each other by sounding notes at the same pitch. It seems a very strange thing to want to do, yet so many guitarists chose to string their guitars that way. Having a re-entrant tuning enables one to play lots of fancy campanellas, of course, but I suspect that this was not why the bourdons were removed in the first place. My guess, (and it would be lovely if you could confirm it to be right), is that the bourdons were removed for the sake of strumming. Second inversions were not such a problem per se, especially if there was another instrument supplying the true bass, but a second inversion involving a wrong note sounding below the bass, or one which was particularly low in pitch, was not satisfactory. Assuming that to be the case, the guitarist has two ways of avoiding those low, unwanted notes. Either he avoids playing them, as Lex has maintained was a possibility, or he gets rid of the bourdons altogether, so that he can strum to his heart's content without having to worry about having to miss out the odd unfelicitous low note. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 19 November 2010 12:18 To: Stewart McCoy Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence Triads were not new in the 17th century. They had certainly been around a lot
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say. I think Chris has gone into more detail about this in a later message. There are definite advantages to a re-entrant tuning when it comes to placing music on the fingerboard of a 5-course instrument - even when accompanying a bass line. Without bourdons the 6/4 chords are less intrusive. Most players seem to recognise this. Monica Where we differ, I think, is whether someone strumming a guitar with bourdons may have chosen to avoid some of the lower notes of a chord, where they would otherwise interfere with a bass line, like the bass notes played on a spinet for that song by Stefano Landi. To this I would ask, why is that guitarists in the 17th century chose to string their guitars without bourdons? By doing that, they drastically reduce the overall range of the instrument, and different courses end up duplicating each other by sounding notes at the same pitch. It seems a very strange thing to want to do, yet so many guitarists chose to string their guitars that way. Having a re-entrant tuning enables one to play lots of fancy campanellas, of course, but I suspect that this was not why the bourdons were removed in the first place. My guess, (and it would be lovely if you could confirm it to be right), is that the bourdons were removed for the sake of strumming. Second inversions were not such a problem per se, especially if there was another instrument supplying the true bass, but a second inversion involving a wrong note sounding below the bass, or one which was particularly low in pitch, was not satisfactory. Assuming that to be the case, the guitarist has two ways of avoiding those low, unwanted notes. Either he avoids playing them, as Lex has maintained was a possibility, or he gets rid of the bourdons altogether, so that he can strum to his heart's content without having to worry about having to miss out the odd unfelicitous low note. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 19 November 2010 12:18 To: Stewart McCoy Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence Triads were not new in the 17th century. They had certainly been around a lot earlier than that, and were pretty well established by the 15th century. Composers like Dufay made much use of them. You have only to look at 15th-century pieces played on the lute with a plectrum to see how a polyphonic texture was filled out here and there with triadic chords. I think you are taking everything I have said literally and out of context. There is a difference between consonances made up of the notes of a triad and a recognization of the relationship between them. It is not that these things are new in the sense that no-one had ever thought them before. Rather there is a shift of emphasis with the emmergence of the seconda prattica. It is obvious in the 4-course repertoire that there are the same chords which are found in the 5-course repertoire but without the fifth course and these may have been strummed. These are on the margins so to speak. As far as strumming on the guitar is concerned, the actual notes played cannot always be notated accurately, because a skilled strummer will not strike all the strings of a chord every time. He may, for example, choose to strike all the strings for a strong down-stroke, but catch just the first few strings with a lighter strum on the up-stroke. I have no problem at all with the idea that there would be different strumming patterns to create a contrast in texture but I do not agree with you or Lex that ensuring that the chords were in the correct inversions was an issue. It is an entirely modern obsession. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Sanseverino's six (dance-) songs are accompaniments to well-known melodies. Actually, I checked them this morning. Leading Musicologists nowadays treat such repertoire as dance-songs. Which Leading Musicologists? Even songs by Rontani connected with the Florentine school? How could you dance to Caldi sospiri? Which songs are you referring to? I have even found a version of Caccini's Amaryllis with alfabeto. Is that a dance song? I am sure that it was and if you read what Marini has said and study how he has added the alfabeto to the songs you can see that he had in mind something quite different from what you seem to think There's the Chinese whispering again. Well this is what you said ... The songs of Marini, Berti and so many others were new compositions, provided with the harmony of a basso continuo. The alfabeto could well have been inscribed by the composer himself, as we assume of Biagio Marini, for example. which seems imply that because the alfabeto was included by the composers themselves it was intended to be interpreted differently. [could we please have this discussion in Dutch ?:~) ] Double Dutch perhaps. What you are saying sounds like pedantry to me. You asked me what I thought of Alexander Dean's views, to which I answered quite seriously. I think you could have explained it using simpler, more direct language rather than using wordy acaemicspeak.. And songs from the 1630s? Should we really suppose that Foscarini's instructions don't apply for anything from before 1640? Probably. There is a very marked change in style in the solo pieces in book five from the earlier books. The whole of Foscarini's book reflects quite rapid changes taking place between 1629 and 1640. A microcosm of what was happening then. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Stewart To this I would ask, why is that guitarists in the 17th century chose to string their guitars without bourdons? By doing that, they drastically reduce the overall range of the instrument, and different courses end up duplicating each other by sounding notes at the same pitch. It seems a very strange thing to want to do, yet so many guitarists chose to string their guitars that way. It is indeed an intriguing question. You suppose that many guitarists strung their instruments in that way, but we really don't know much about numbers, do we? Assuming that to be the case, the guitarist has two ways of avoiding those low, unwanted notes. Either he avoids playing them, as Lex has maintained was a possibility, or he gets rid of the bourdons altogether, so that he can strum to his heart's content without having to worry about having to miss out the odd unfelicitous low note. Inversion free strumming could indeed have been a reason to prefer re-entrant stringing. Only the idea that a guitarist would have removed the low basses of a guitar in bourdon tuning does not completely convince me. It could well be that re-entrant tuning had spread before the rise of basso continuo, and would initially have little to do with avoiding a conflict with a bass line (or a bass line instrument). We encounter more sources referring to re-entrant in France. Basso continuo seems to have arrived there rather later. best wishes, Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
You asked me what I thought of Alexander Dean's views, to which I answered quite seriously. I think you could have explained it using simpler, more direct language rather than using wordy acaemicspeak.. My goodness. Apparently you have not understood a word of it. As you seem to have missed most of what Alexander Dean has said in his (400 pages indeed) dissertation this doesn't surprise me. There is a very marked change in style in the solo pieces in book five from the earlier books. The whole of Foscarini's book reflects quite rapid changes taking place between 1629 and 1640. A microcosm of what was happening then. So for alfabeto songs from the 1630s then? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
You haven't anwered my questions. I will repeat them. Which Leading Musicologists nowadays treat which songs as dance-repertoire? Even songs by Rontani connected with the Florentine school? How could you dance to Caldi sospiri? Which songs are you referring to? I have even found a version of Caccini's Amaryllis with alfabeto. Is that a dance song? But perhaps you don't know the anwer. I think you could have explained it using simpler, more direct language rather than using wordy acaemicspeak.. My goodness. Apparently you have not understood a word of it. I wonder if you have either as you seem unable to summarize what he has said coherently for the benefit of those on this list who might not have read it. There is a very marked change in style in the solo pieces in book five from the earlier books. The whole of Foscarini's book reflects quite rapid changes taking place between 1629 and 1640. A microcosm of what was happening then. So for alfabeto songs from the 1630s then? They were certainly being printed then. Landi's book was printed in 1637. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
I can't summarize it in a single sentence but I hope I can explain briefly.
I think the reason for including alfabeto in these song books is because
they were
not intended to be
accompanied in the same way as they would be on the theorbo or keyboard.
There is no point in doing something which other instruments could do
better. And if performers could or wanted to do so they would use the bass
line provided.
A different style of accompaniment is intended - one which is entirely
strummed which can in its way be very effective. Later perhaps taste
changed leading to a mixed or more varied style of accompaniment but I
don't think that strumming ever went out of fashion.
I responded cautiously to Lex's original message about the Landi songs
because it was an interesting subject and I thought I might be able to shed
some light on the problem. I am grateful to him to drawing my attention to
the facsimile as I was familiar with some of the songs but had not
previously seen the orignal score.
However we have discussed all the rest of this previously and what happens
is that we end up going round and round in circles. We obviously have very
different ideas on the subject. The only reason for my continuing to take
part in it is because I don't think that only one point of view should be
put forward. But my time is limited.
I think that it is a pity that we cannot find anything more worthwhile to
discuss than the stringing of the 5-course guitar which is where it always
ends up.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 10:51 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Lex,
Well, it just goes to show how such a protracted exchange can become as
Chinese whispers. I had gained the impression that this (ie
principally avoidance of inversions in alfabeto) was the issue -
including of course non-BC bourdon use with which it is inextricably
entwined. I can therefore see little practical difference between any
of these vigorously defended positions. If there is any significant
difference after all that has been said, would you and Monica kindly
(in a sentence) summarise the res as they see it.
Martyn
--- On Fri, 19/11/10, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 9:49
Dear Martyn,
you wrote:
However, I don't think this is quite the same as saying, as I
think Lex
does, that players (even the amateurs at which the tablatures are
often
aimed) would have routinely (perhaps even always) sought to avoid
inversions by selective strumming.
What makes you think that I believe that??
I have no idea what was done routinely ('even [by] the amateurs'),
and
do not pretend to know what was (perhaps) always done. Nor what was
_
never_ done, for that matter.
best wishes, Lex
--
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[VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Monica,
I agree that it is probably best to move on now, but please don't think
the thread has not been worthwhile. I have learned a lot about the
baroque guitar and its music, in particular about Landi's songs, and I
value what you, Lex, Martyn and others have had to say on the subject.
In a couple of minutes I'll be off to The Plough for a couple of pints.
Pity the three of you can't join me there.
Best wishes,
Stewart.
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Monica Hall
Sent: 19 November 2010 19:35
To: Martyn Hodgson
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
I can't summarize it in a single sentence but I hope I can explain
briefly.
I think the reason for including alfabeto in these song books is
because
they were
not intended to be
accompanied in the same way as they would be on the theorbo or keyboard.
There is no point in doing something which other instruments could do
better. And if performers could or wanted to do so they would use the
bass
line provided.
A different style of accompaniment is intended - one which is entirely
strummed which can in its way be very effective. Later perhaps taste
changed leading to a mixed or more varied style of accompaniment but I
don't think that strumming ever went out of fashion.
I responded cautiously to Lex's original message about the Landi songs
because it was an interesting subject and I thought I might be able to
shed
some light on the problem. I am grateful to him to drawing my
attention to
the facsimile as I was familiar with some of the songs but had not
previously seen the orignal score.
However we have discussed all the rest of this previously and what
happens
is that we end up going round and round in circles. We obviously have
very
different ideas on the subject. The only reason for my continuing to
take
part in it is because I don't think that only one point of view should
be
put forward. But my time is limited.
I think that it is a pity that we cannot find anything more worthwhile
to
discuss than the stringing of the 5-course guitar which is where it
always
ends up.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 10:51 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Lex,
Well, it just goes to show how such a protracted exchange can become
as
Chinese whispers. I had gained the impression that this (ie
principally avoidance of inversions in alfabeto) was the issue -
including of course non-BC bourdon use with which it is
inextricably
entwined. I can therefore see little practical difference between
any
of these vigorously defended positions. If there is any significant
difference after all that has been said, would you and Monica kindly
(in a sentence) summarise the res as they see it.
Martyn
--- On Fri, 19/11/10, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 9:49
Dear Martyn,
you wrote:
However, I don't think this is quite the same as saying, as
I
think Lex
does, that players (even the amateurs at which the tablatures
are
often
aimed) would have routinely (perhaps even always) sought to
avoid
inversions by selective strumming.
What makes you think that I believe that??
I have no idea what was done routinely ('even [by] the
amateurs'),
and
do not pretend to know what was (perhaps) always done. Nor what
was
_
never_ done, for that matter.
best wishes, Lex
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
