[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Hello Franz, but some quite odd with melodylines suddenly jumping an octave up or down. So I suspected that these were not written for re-entrant tuning, or only the upper string being re-entrant, but to take it like this seems also not convincing either. I find that many of these jumps would disappear if a high octave string were used on the third course, as Chris also mentioned. I remember one place in Sanz (the EspaA+-oleta in the very easy pieces for beginners in the foirst book) where both re-entrant and bourdon tuning would create either a seventh or a ninth jump, whereas re-entrant with upper ocatve g would not. Sanz however never mentions a high octave on thirds, and if I remember correctly there has been some discussion in the past as to the feasability of having a gut string tuned to g' without it breaking. IIRC Hopkinson Smith recorded his Sanz disc with high octave g, arguing that the tablature as written by Sanz calls for it. Regards Peter -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
To clarify, I do not use an octave on the G course. What I do is finger an octave G on the E course on a very few instances in one piece by Sanz (the 1st fugue), and for perhaps a couple of others (not necessarily Sanz) I'm considering a similar approach. I honestly find that fugue to be the only Sanz piece that really needs it -- otherwise full re-entrance works for me (so far). For me, thinking is the key to doing away with the so-called octave jumps. It's how you think about it. Consider the modern guitar. When playing a modal piece you will use a bass string as a drone. When playing modal passages in a more harmonic piece you will often do the same. Consider modern transcriptions of Sanz's Canarios -- the low E is tuned to a D, and you drone on that quite a lot. Well, what if that drone is notated at a place where a higher D makes sense with the melodic line? Would you call that an octave jump? I believe most modern guitarists would not, because our ears are accustomed. For me the trick with re-entrant tuning is to realize that the bass is grounded in the 3rd course. And so the music often leans on that grounding course in ways that are not unlike modern guitar music leaning on an A or E. That means your phrasing can make all the difference. Of course, you have to hear it that way... and then one must hope others hear it that way when you play it! One simple technique I've found is to let any note played on the 3rd course ring as long as humanly possible. Doing just that eliminates the sensation of jumping in very many cases. Or so I claim. The problem with the first fugue is that it's, well... it's a fugue. And so it has linear passages that really seem to fall down when they land on that lower G. Also, with full bordones the separation of the voices is more explicit because it falls on different registers, and the lines cross at the G. Without the bordones you have to think of two voices in the same register -- not so explicit as what we're used to in a fugue. cud __ From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com To: Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 4:55:11 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hello Franz, but some quite odd with melodylines suddenly jumping an octave up or down. So I suspected that these were not written for re-entrant tuning, or only the upper string being re-entrant, but to take it like this seems also not convincing either. I find that many of these jumps would disappear if a high octave string were used on the third course, as Chris also mentioned. I remember one place in Sanz (the Espanoleta in the very easy pieces for beginners in the foirst book) where both re-entrant and bourdon tuning would create either a seventh or a ninth jump, whereas re-entrant with upper ocatve g would not. Sanz however never mentions a high octave on thirds, and if I remember correctly there has been some discussion in the past as to the feasability of having a gut string tuned to g' without it breaking. IIRC Hopkinson Smith recorded his Sanz disc with high octave g, arguing that the tablature as written by Sanz calls for it. Regards Peter -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
One last clarification... I'm not suggesting any one method will solve all problems. Fate fore fend! I'm only relating my own experience as I've done my best to make sense out of one method of stringing. For me the bottom line is that it's loads of fun and it opens up musical possibilities. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 5:32:29 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Dear Everyone I think everything which Chris has said in his long message is very helpful and I agree with what he says. However I would not start out with the idea that most of the music is intended to be played with one method of stringing rather than another and that somehow you can eliminate all the anomalies which Franz has mentioned in his message with any particular method. As far as having a high octave string on the 3rd course is concerned - there is no documentary evidence that this method of tuning was ever used. The two manuscript sources which some people have claimed do show this method of stringing are not sufficiently clear to support such an idea. You can see the relevant pages in the essay about stringing on my webpage - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk Although this method of stringing is very popular at the moment IMHO it creates as many problems as it solves. And with gut strings you might have a problem. Aside from that I think you could play all the music in Corbetta's books of 1643 and 1648 and in Bartolotti's 1640 book with a re-entrant tuning. Quite a lot of Foscarini, Santiago de Murcia, Valdambrini if you can get a copy of it and can decipher it. James Tyler's tutor is now available and I guess it has quite a few pieces from different parts of the repertoire suitable for re-entrant tuning. I was amused by Chris's comment on Libro de Diferentes Cifras (m/811, 1705), edited by Francisco Alfonso Valdivia -- Monica is credited as a collaborator (sounds subversive). Francisco and I are friends but I am not sure that he would think the re-entrant tuning appropriate for the music in this manuscript. The choice is really yours. Hope that helped. Monica - Original Message - From: Peter Kooiman To: Franz Mechsner Cc: Vihuelalist ; Chris Despopoulos ; Harlan Glotzer ; Monica Hall Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 9:55 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hello Franz, but some quite odd with melodylines suddenly jumping an octave up or down. So I suspected that these were not written for re-entrant tuning, or only the upper string being re-entrant, but to take it like this seems also not convincing either. I find that many of these jumps would disappear if a high octave string were used on the third course, as Chris also mentioned. I remember one place in Sanz (the Espanoleta in the very easy pieces for beginners in the foirst book) where both re-entrant and bourdon tuning would create either a seventh or a ninth jump, whereas re-entrant with upper ocatve g would not. Sanz however never mentions a high octave on thirds, and if I remember correctly there has been some discussion in the past as to the feasability of having a gut string tuned to g' without it breaking. IIRC Hopkinson Smith recorded his Sanz disc with high octave g, arguing that the tablature as written by Sanz calls for it. Regards Peter To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
-Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:48 AM To: Harlan Glotzer; Monica Hall Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? My personal hypothesis is that the 6-string guitar would not have developed without the benefit of bordones. Indeed, the 6-course guitar (double-strung) seems to have a short life in the period, and gives way to single courses very quickly. I beg forgiveness and correction if I'm wrong on that. In my opinion, there's no logical reason to have a fully re-entrant 6-course guitar. You end up repeating a note on one course or the other. [Eugene C. Braig IV] Indeed, at least relatively speaking. However, the 6-course instrument was largely a quirk of Spanish-speaking places. The rest of Europe seems to have gone to five single strings first (using the low octave at d and A, and probably often simply leaving their 5-course guitars single strung), then later adding the sixth at E. A fine example of 5-string guitar music and on of the earliest known concerti for guitar is Lhoyer's, published in Germany in the very early 19th c. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
- Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:45 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:48 AM To: Harlan Glotzer; Monica Hall Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? My personal hypothesis is that the 6-string guitar would not have developed without the benefit of bordones. Indeed, the 6-course guitar (double-strung) seems to have a short life in the period, and gives way to single courses very quickly. I beg forgiveness and correction if I'm wrong on that. In my opinion, there's no logical reason to have a fully re-entrant 6-course guitar. You end up repeating a note on one course or the other. [Eugene C. Braig IV] Indeed, at least relatively speaking. However, the 6-course instrument was largely a quirk of Spanish-speaking places. The rest of Europe seems to have gone to five single strings first (using the low octave at d and A, and probably often simply leaving their 5-course guitars single strung), then later adding the sixth at E. A fine example of 5-string guitar music and on of the earliest known concerti for guitar is Lhoyer's, published in Germany in the very early 19th c. Best, Eugene That's very interesting. Does Lloyer actually specify that his music is for a single strung 5-course guitar? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
I don't think he ever did (the music just doesn't go lower than the open A string) but I suppose there is a presumption that it was most likely for a 5-string (i.e. single strung) guitar. 5-string guitars did certainly exist at the time. Also, some original 5-course guitars were converted to 5-string ones by changing their original bridges. Alexander PS: If I remember it correctly there are also a few arrangements of his music for the seven string Russian guitar (supposedly from his period in Russia between 1804 - 14). On 03/02/2011 15:49, Monica Hall wrote: [Eugene C. Braig IV] Indeed, at least relatively speaking. However, the 6-course instrument was largely a quirk of Spanish-speaking places. The rest of Europe seems to have gone to five single strings first (using the low octave at d and A, and probably often simply leaving their 5-course guitars single strung), then later adding the sixth at E. A fine example of 5-string guitar music and on of the earliest known concerti for guitar is Lhoyer's, published in Germany in the very early 19th c. Best, Eugene That's very interesting. Does Lloyer actually specify that his music is for a single strung 5-course guitar? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
5 course/string guitars survived into the 19th century in Ukraine: http://polyhymnion.org/images/bandurka.jpg ! RT - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I don't think he ever did (the music just doesn't go lower than the open A string) but I suppose there is a presumption that it was most likely for a 5-string (i.e. single strung) guitar. 5-string guitars did certainly exist at the time. Also, some original 5-course guitars were converted to 5-string ones by changing their original bridges. Alexander PS: If I remember it correctly there are also a few arrangements of his music for the seven string Russian guitar (supposedly from his period in Russia between 1804 - 14). On 03/02/2011 15:49, Monica Hall wrote: [Eugene C. Braig IV] Indeed, at least relatively speaking. However, the 6-course instrument was largely a quirk of Spanish-speaking places. The rest of Europe seems to have gone to five single strings first (using the low octave at d and A, and probably often simply leaving their 5-course guitars single strung), then later adding the sixth at E. A fine example of 5-string guitar music and on of the earliest known concerti for guitar is Lhoyer's, published in Germany in the very early 19th c. Best, Eugene That's very interesting. Does Lloyer actually specify that his music is for a single strung 5-course guitar? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Also, Lhoyer's early music never extends below a low A where his later music does. There is an evident transition to six strings as that format became increasingly popular. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Batov Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:00 PM Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I don't think he ever did (the music just doesn't go lower than the open A string) but I suppose there is a presumption that it was most likely for a 5-string (i.e. single strung) guitar. 5-string guitars did certainly exist at the time. Also, some original 5-course guitars were converted to 5-string ones by changing their original bridges. Alexander PS: If I remember it correctly there are also a few arrangements of his music for the seven string Russian guitar (supposedly from his period in Russia between 1804 - 14). On 03/02/2011 15:49, Monica Hall wrote: [Eugene C. Braig IV] Indeed, at least relatively speaking. However, the 6-course instrument was largely a quirk of Spanish-speaking places. The rest of Europe seems to have gone to five single strings first (using the low octave at d and A, and probably often simply leaving their 5-course guitars single strung), then later adding the sixth at E. A fine example of 5-string guitar music and on of the earliest known concerti for guitar is Lhoyer's, published in Germany in the very early 19th c. Best, Eugene That's very interesting. Does Lloyer actually specify that his music is for a single strung 5-course guitar? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
..And not to mention into the present in some Latin American folk traditions. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Roman Turovsky Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:04 PM To: Alexander Batov Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? 5 course/string guitars survived into the 19th century in Ukraine: http://polyhymnion.org/images/bandurka.jpg ! RT - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I don't think he ever did (the music just doesn't go lower than the open A string) but I suppose there is a presumption that it was most likely for a 5-string (i.e. single strung) guitar. 5-string guitars did certainly exist at the time. Also, some original 5-course guitars were converted to 5-string ones by changing their original bridges. Alexander PS: If I remember it correctly there are also a few arrangements of his music for the seven string Russian guitar (supposedly from his period in Russia between 1804 - 14). On 03/02/2011 15:49, Monica Hall wrote: [Eugene C. Braig IV] Indeed, at least relatively speaking. However, the 6-course instrument was largely a quirk of Spanish-speaking places. The rest of Europe seems to have gone to five single strings first (using the low octave at d and A, and probably often simply leaving their 5- course guitars single strung), then later adding the sixth at E. A fine example of 5-string guitar music and on of the earliest known concerti for guitar is Lhoyer's, published in Germany in the very early 19th c. Best, Eugene That's very interesting. Does Lloyer actually specify that his music is for a single strung 5-course guitar? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
They've been around in Russia too. There are two original 19th century 5-string bandurkas in the St-Petersburg collection; shallow-bodied, fairly small in size (the one on your link looks like a re-construction to me). By the way, I've never heard about 5-course bandurkas ... Also, I'm not sure they are in any way related (i.e. music wise) to the guitar tradition. Alexander On 03/02/2011 18:04, Roman Turovsky wrote: 5 course/string guitars survived into the 19th century in Ukraine: http://polyhymnion.org/images/bandurka.jpg ! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
I have just been reading part of the introduction to Alejandro Vera's edition of this new Murcia manuscript. In the passage dealing with the perenniel problem of which stringing to use he mentions that Neil Pennington thought Murcia's music was intended for the re-entrant tuning, Craig Russell and I (in 1984)opted for the French tuning, Richard Savino thinks you need octave stringing on the 4th and 5th courses, Michael Lorimer thinks Murcia had octave strings on the 3rd and 4th courses and Frank Koonce thinks Murcia would have had several guitars and used different ones for different pieces. In some instances you would need to change instruments in mid-stream. Vera gives some interesting examples e.g. notes on the 1st course which belong in the lower octave and notes on the 5th course which even with a high octave string will be an octave too low. The point is (I think) that Murcia's music, and for that matter most other baroque guitar music, isn't intended for one method of stringing rather than another. It is arranged in such a way that it can be conveniently played on a 5-course instrument and in a way that makes the best use of the limitations which having only 5 courses imposes. It relies on the ambiguous tone quality of the instrument to create the desired effect. I am sure that re-entrant tunings were an integral feature of the instrument for this reason. I remember Chris pointing out that they have very obvious advantages when it comes to arrranging the music conveniently. This is certainly the case on the cittern which always had a re-entrant tuning. Arguments about whether the music conforms to the rules of music theory, and the idea that you can leave out one string of a course or strike it in such a way the emphasis falls on one or other string are futile. That's not what it is all about. Food for thought Monica - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Roman Turovsky' r.turov...@verizon.net; 'Alexander Batov' alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 6:19 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? ..And not to mention into the present in some Latin American folk traditions. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Roman Turovsky Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:04 PM To: Alexander Batov Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? 5 course/string guitars survived into the 19th century in Ukraine: http://polyhymnion.org/images/bandurka.jpg ! RT - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I don't think he ever did (the music just doesn't go lower than the open A string) but I suppose there is a presumption that it was most likely for a 5-string (i.e. single strung) guitar. 5-string guitars did certainly exist at the time. Also, some original 5-course guitars were converted to 5-string ones by changing their original bridges. Alexander PS: If I remember it correctly there are also a few arrangements of his music for the seven string Russian guitar (supposedly from his period in Russia between 1804 - 14). On 03/02/2011 15:49, Monica Hall wrote: [Eugene C. Braig IV] Indeed, at least relatively speaking. However, the 6-course instrument was largely a quirk of Spanish-speaking places. The rest of Europe seems to have gone to five single strings first (using the low octave at d and A, and probably often simply leaving their 5- course guitars single strung), then later adding the sixth at E. A fine example of 5-string guitar music and on of the earliest known concerti for guitar is Lhoyer's, published in Germany in the very early 19th c. Best, Eugene That's very interesting. Does Lloyer actually specify that his music is for a single strung 5-course guitar? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Well - yes. A lot of the pieces in Murcia's Passacalles y obras are actually his arrangements of pieces by other people and vary quite a lot. But stringing isn't obviously an issue. For example he has rearranged quite a few pieces by Campion which use different scordature in the original. He has re-intabulated them for the standard tuning. In some place there are note inegales written out. The variants are usually to the musical content rather than an attempt to adapt them to different stringing. I haven't had time to compare the same pieces in the different Murcia manuscripts yet. Some things are obvious. The strummed openings in the Saldivar codex are not included in the versions in Cifras selectas. In Marsellas - the strummed chords in some places which are in Resumen de acompanar have been eliminated. But a lot of the variations seem to be different. I have also compared some of the Corbetta pieces in the Gallot manuscript. Where these have apparently been copied from the printed books they don't vary very much but other pieces which may have been passed from one player to another aurally do vary. And so on. Quite an interesting topic. Monica - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:18 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I like this thesis. Also, the music of these composers tends to exist both in publication and widely scattered manuscripts compiled by different individuals in different places. I wouldn't be surprised if different players transcribed it differently in their own manuscript versions to best suit their own personal stringing tastes. Where they occur, has anybody endeavored to compare the settings of single pieces across different sources, especially different manuscript sources of disparate origins? Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 3:11 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I have just been reading part of the introduction to Alejandro Vera's edition of this new Murcia manuscript. In the passage dealing with the perenniel problem of which stringing to use he mentions that Neil Pennington thought Murcia's music was intended for the re-entrant tuning, Craig Russell and I (in 1984)opted for the French tuning, Richard Savino thinks you need octave stringing on the 4th and 5th courses, Michael Lorimer thinks Murcia had octave strings on the 3rd and 4th courses and Frank Koonce thinks Murcia would have had several guitars and used different ones for different pieces. In some instances you would need to change instruments in mid-stream. Vera gives some interesting examples e.g. notes on the 1st course which belong in the lower octave and notes on the 5th course which even with a high octave string will be an octave too low. The point is (I think) that Murcia's music, and for that matter most other baroque guitar music, isn't intended for one method of stringing rather than another. It is arranged in such a way that it can be conveniently played on a 5-course instrument and in a way that makes the best use of the limitations which having only 5 courses imposes. It relies on the ambiguous tone quality of the instrument to create the desired effect. I am sure that re-entrant tunings were an integral feature of the instrument for this reason. I remember Chris pointing out that they have very obvious advantages when it comes to arrranging the music conveniently. This is certainly the case on the cittern which always had a re-entrant tuning. Arguments about whether the music conforms to the rules of music theory, and the idea that you can leave out one string of a course or strike it in such a way the emphasis falls on one or other string are futile. That's not what it is all about. Food for thought Monica - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Roman Turovsky' r.turov...@verizon.net; 'Alexander Batov' alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 6:19 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? ..And not to mention into the present in some Latin American folk traditions. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Roman Turovsky Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:04 PM To: Alexander Batov Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? 5 course/string guitars survived into the 19th century in Ukraine: http://polyhymnion.org/images/bandurka.jpg ! RT - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: Vihuelalist
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Thanks for your thoughts, Monica. Eugene -Original Message- From: Monica Hall [mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 3:45 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well - yes. A lot of the pieces in Murcia's Passacalles y obras are actually his arrangements of pieces by other people and vary quite a lot. But stringing isn't obviously an issue. For example he has rearranged quite a few pieces by Campion which use different scordature in the original. He has re-intabulated them for the standard tuning. In some place there are note inegales written out. The variants are usually to the musical content rather than an attempt to adapt them to different stringing. I haven't had time to compare the same pieces in the different Murcia manuscripts yet. Some things are obvious. The strummed openings in the Saldivar codex are not included in the versions in Cifras selectas. In Marsellas - the strummed chords in some places which are in Resumen de acompanar have been eliminated. But a lot of the variations seem to be different. I have also compared some of the Corbetta pieces in the Gallot manuscript. Where these have apparently been copied from the printed books they don't vary very much but other pieces which may have been passed from one player to another aurally do vary. And so on. Quite an interesting topic. Monica - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:18 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I like this thesis. Also, the music of these composers tends to exist both in publication and widely scattered manuscripts compiled by different individuals in different places. I wouldn't be surprised if different players transcribed it differently in their own manuscript versions to best suit their own personal stringing tastes. Where they occur, has anybody endeavored to compare the settings of single pieces across different sources, especially different manuscript sources of disparate origins? Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 3:11 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I have just been reading part of the introduction to Alejandro Vera's edition of this new Murcia manuscript. In the passage dealing with the perenniel problem of which stringing to use he mentions that Neil Pennington thought Murcia's music was intended for the re-entrant tuning, Craig Russell and I (in 1984)opted for the French tuning, Richard Savino thinks you need octave stringing on the 4th and 5th courses, Michael Lorimer thinks Murcia had octave strings on the 3rd and 4th courses and Frank Koonce thinks Murcia would have had several guitars and used different ones for different pieces. In some instances you would need to change instruments in mid-stream. Vera gives some interesting examples e.g. notes on the 1st course which belong in the lower octave and notes on the 5th course which even with a high octave string will be an octave too low. The point is (I think) that Murcia's music, and for that matter most other baroque guitar music, isn't intended for one method of stringing rather than another. It is arranged in such a way that it can be conveniently played on a 5-course instrument and in a way that makes the best use of the limitations which having only 5 courses imposes. It relies on the ambiguous tone quality of the instrument to create the desired effect. I am sure that re-entrant tunings were an integral feature of the instrument for this reason. I remember Chris pointing out that they have very obvious advantages when it comes to arrranging the music conveniently. This is certainly the case on the cittern which always had a re-entrant tuning. Arguments about whether the music conforms to the rules of music theory, and the idea that you can leave out one string of a course or strike it in such a way the emphasis falls on one or other string are futile. That's not what it is all about. Food for thought Monica - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Roman Turovsky' r.turov...@verizon.net; 'Alexander Batov' alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 6:19 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? ..And not to mention into the present in some Latin American folk traditions. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From:
