[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Monica, The F major chord against the note d is simply a 65 chord on a bass F (as I mentioned earlier in this thread): this chord is extremely common at the time (and indeed many other times) as leading up to a cadential 43 chord. It is the body of contextural experience (and the estimable rule of the octave) which allows us to realise the bass without figures. And yes - certainly I would (and do) automatically think of playing 65 chords in such contexts. However on the guitar, where common alfabeto has no discrete symbols for such chords, the arranger is obliged to use what is available: since there is already a 6th in the upper part, a chord supplying the 5th was inserted in the guitar (ie an F major chord). As an added bonus, as we have been discussing ad naseum in this thread, in this case Marini (or whoever) has also simply extended the harmony over a G in the bass in anticipation of the 43 to provide a bit more harmonic frisson. As said previously, we ought not to think such passing dissonances are so very unusual and there are, of course, numerous other short harmonic sequences which provide similar effects which the Old Ones (especially in this period) seemed to like. So coming full circle to our original discussion, I point you in the direction of Granata's 1674 collection: page 10 second half of bar 13: note the nice chord tablature 022 (ie D with sharp 7th). The vital C# (sharp 7th) is neither in the violin part nor, of course, in the very basic figures of the basso part. Incidentally, you asked for an example of where the guitar was accompanied by a bowed bass and, of course, it is in these very pieces for 'Chitarra Spagnola, Violino, e Viola' as mentioned much earlier in this thread. Since the form was known, why Marini (or whoever) didn't therefore add alfabeto to the instrumental ritornelli in his 1622 collection is beyond me - except to say that he only mentions theorbo (not a bowed bass) as an option and perhaps he felt too much plucking (ie guitar as well as theorbo) was excessive in the context of a simple ritornello (as also suggested earlier in this thread). Finally, having just looked at Granata1674 again, I'm now rather more convinced the concertati pieces were not conceived as guitar sols (tho' might have been played as such): there's just to many places where the upper melodic line vanishes or goes down an octave. For example page 6, end of bar 6 and first beat of bar 7 ( - I suggest the octave shift here was to be able to play the E maj chord in the root position rather than playing M2 shape after the preceding two notes if at the upper octave - as Vn part). regards Martyn --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 18:18 Dear Martyn It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor chord held over a G which is anticipating the cadence and creating a momentary passing dissonance which is then resolved. But why would you play an F major chord there at all? The note in the voice part is D - a 6th above the bass - implying a 1st inversion of a D minor chord - F A D.If you are going to play F A C, the voice part is still singing D. Therefore the complete chord is a minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - D F A C. The fact that the guitar has an F major chord is irrelevant surely - in fact it is a bit of a red herring although Marini may have chosen it rather than a D minor chord because it does create the appropriate harmony with the voice part. If there was no alfabeto would you even think of playing an F major chord there? The point I was making is that the C and the F in the first chord can also belong to the second, but including A in the second chord seems to me inappropriate. You still get a nice dissonance without it which conforms to all the rules of counterpoint. Marini's basses are completely un-figured so how do you decide? This is part of the problem. I'm slowly losing the will to live ... It is very difficult to discuss these things without musical example and an instrument to hand. Regards Monica --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date:
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Incidentally, I'm not suggesting bowed bass for the songs if the theorbo is present - only if the guitar is used without the theorbo. And if the guitar and theorbo were both present then the theorbo need only play the bass line - a mode which is documented. Indeed to avoid too much plucking I would certainly favour a single line plucked bass if the guitar was present It seems you prefer ensemble performance with a separate bass, if a guitar would be involved. There is a wealth of information from pre 1600 to c 1650 time testifying of singing to the guitar. And where can we read (see) about singing to the guitar + bowed bass or guitar + theorbo? (Please note that I don't say 'never' or 'impossible'.) As I understand from reading what others have said about the use of bowed string in basso continuo, for example Borgir, O'Dette + Ashworth, Sayce, I have the impression that they have not found much either, regarding combinations with the guitar. It seems bowed bass was mainly used in certain other genres. best, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Lex, My observations were withing the context of songs with an independent basso part in addition to the guitar alfabeto, such as the Marini 1622 collection. Clearly, if only the alfabeto were present then I'd generally expect only the guitar. I'd be very grateful if you'd read my postings with more care - it might save us both a lot of time! And yes, I do think that where an independent basso part is present and the guitar is strumming chords then the bass line is best played by another instrument: bowed bass, theorbo (just solo line?) or other. The alternative which you appear to be suggesting is that we dispense with the written bass line altogether if the guitar strums chords. Are you really sure this is what the various other people you mention really believe? - I very much doubt it. And. more to the point - is it really what you believe? regards Martyn --- On Tue, 26/4/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 11:23 Incidentally, I'm not suggesting bowed bass for the songs if the theorbo is present - only if the guitar is used without the theorbo. And if the guitar and theorbo were both present then the theorbo need only play the bass line - a mode which is documented. Indeed to avoid too much plucking I would certainly favour a single line plucked bass if the guitar was present It seems you prefer ensemble performance with a separate bass, if a guitar would be involved. There is a wealth of information from pre 1600 to c 1650 time testifying of singing to the guitar. And where can we read (see) about singing to the guitar + bowed bass or guitar + theorbo? (Please note that I don't say 'never' or 'impossible'.) As I understand from reading what others have said about the use of bowed string in basso continuo, for example Borgir, O'Dette + Ashworth, Sayce, I have the impression that they have not found much either, regarding combinations with the guitar. It seems bowed bass was mainly used in certain other genres. best, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Martyn, The F major chord against the note d is simply a 65 chord on a bass F That is exactly what I said. It is the first inversion of a minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale and as you say it is very common in this repertoire. The notes which the chord includes are D F A C. C is the 7th and F is the 3rd and is in the bass. What you call it is immaterial. The voice part is D E F C. The E is a passing note (and it is not clear whether it should be E flat or E natural). The other three notes define the chord. However on the guitar, where common alfabeto has no discrete symbols for such chords, the arranger is obliged to use what is available: since there is already a 6th in the upper part, a chord supplying the 5th was inserted in the guitar (ie an F major chord). Again this is exactly what I said. There is no problem as far as I am concerned with the guitar alfabeto here. in this case Marini (or whoever) has also simply extended the harmony over a G in the bass in anticipation of the 43 to provide a bit more harmonic frisson. I think you are confusing the alfabeto with the continuo part. Repeating the F major chord is Ok if there is no G in the bass. You seemed to be saying that you would repeat the F major chord - omitting the D - which is no longer present in the voice part. What I would do is repeat Dminor7 over the G in the bass. I was at first inclined to omit the A - but it is in fact the 9th of the chord - so no problem. It is a dominant 9th chord with a suspended 4th. So coming full circle to our original discussion, I point you in the direction of Granata's 1674 collection: page 10 second half of bar 13: But this is a different progression altogether. It's a major 7th chord on the 4th degree of the scale or really just a passing 6/4 with combined with a lower auxiliary note in the bass. Incidentally, you asked for an example of where the guitar was accompanied by a bowed bass and, of course, it is in these very pieces for 'Chitarra Spagnola, Violino, e Viola' as mentioned much earlier in this thread. Since the form was known, why Marini (or whoever) didn't therefore add alfabeto to the instrumental ritornelli in his 1622 collection is beyond me I think you are jumping the gun here - in 1622 the guitar only played alfabeto. Granata's pieces are in lute style with only occasional alfabeto chords. Finally, having just looked at Granata1674 again, I'm now rather more convinced the concertati pieces were not conceived as guitar sols (tho' might have been played as such): Well - yes I agree with that. Rgds Monica --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 18:18 Dear Martyn It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor chord held over a G which is anticipating the cadence and creating a momentary passing dissonance which is then resolved. But why would you play an F major chord there at all? The note in the voice part is D - a 6th above the bass - implying a 1st inversion of a D minor chord - F A D.If you are going to play F A C, the voice part is still singing D. Therefore the complete chord is a minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - D F A C. The fact that the guitar has an F major chord is irrelevant surely - in fact it is a bit of a red herring although Marini may have chosen it rather than a D minor chord because it does create the appropriate harmony with the voice part. If there was no alfabeto would you even think of playing an F major chord there? The point I was making is that the C and the F in the first chord can also belong to the second, but including A in the second chord seems to me inappropriate. You still get a nice dissonance without it which conforms to all the rules of counterpoint. Marini's basses are completely un-figured so how do you decide? This is part of the problem. I'm slowly losing the will to live ... It is very difficult to discuss these things without musical example and an instrument to hand. Regards Monica --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 15:40 Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're wrong and are imposing a retrospective modern
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Martyn My observations were withing the context of songs with an independent basso part in addition to the guitar alfabeto, such as the Marini 1622 collection. Clearly, if only the alfabeto were present then I'd generally expect only the guitar. I'd be very grateful if you'd read my postings with more care - it might save us both a lot of time! The present discussion was indeed about Marini 1622, and I had that book in mind, not other collections with just text and alfabeto. And yes, I do think that where an independent basso part is present and the guitar is strumming chords then the bass line is best played by another instrument: bowed bass, theorbo (just solo line?) or other. The alternative which you appear to be suggesting is that we dispense with the written bass line altogether if the guitar strums chords. That seems a reasonable assumption, yes. As remarked earlier, there are very many collections with alfabeto + continuo. Many more than there are books with alfabeto without continuo bass. As I asked in my last message, where would the references be to voice + guitar + other bass line instruments? To not waste your time again: of course it can be argued that the many existing references would all apply to singing to the guitar a repertoire which had no continuo line. This doesn't completely convince me. Now you say that having a bass in counterpoint to the melody is to be preferred. I think 'they' did not care much, while singing to the guitar was very much a matter of fashion/image. Are you really sure this is what the various other people you mention really believe? I have no idea what they believe, but in their (and others') writings I see no word about having found references to the guitar + bowed string, and I suppose anyone would have told so if he/she had read that somewhere. best, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Dear Monica, O death, where is thy sting? These emails, between Lex, you and me are increasingly suffering from failure to read (or to digest) exactly what is being said: I don't blame anyone of us in particular. Most recently you have written that I said something when I thought I'd gone out of the way to say quite the opposite! I precisely did not say, vis a vis the example of Granata's harmony, that it was the same as Marini's (as you've now taken it!): merely that it was a similar type of passing dissonance that was used at the time. Indeed, I particularly wanted to give a similar but not identical example of such harmony to illustrate the more widespread use of such. This is what I actually wrote: 'we ought not to think such passing dissonances are so very unusual and there are, of course, numerous other short harmonic sequences which provide similar effects which the Old Ones (especially in this period) seemed to like' - I then went on to give this new example. And yes, yet again, I would hold (repeat if necessary) the Fmaj chord over the passing dissonant g in the bass to then resolve through the 43 cadence. Sigh.. nevertheless, kind regards yrs thfo Martyn --- On Tue, 26/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 13:17 Dear Martyn, The F major chord against the note d is simply a 65 chord on a bass F That is exactly what I said. It is the first inversion of a minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale and as you say it is very common in this repertoire. The notes which the chord includes are D F A C. C is the 7th and F is the 3rd and is in the bass. What you call it is immaterial. The voice part is D E F C. The E is a passing note (and it is not clear whether it should be E flat or E natural). The other three notes define the chord. However on the guitar, where common alfabeto has no discrete symbols for such chords, the arranger is obliged to use what is available: since there is already a 6th in the upper part, a chord supplying the 5th was inserted in the guitar (ie an F major chord). Again this is exactly what I said. There is no problem as far as I am concerned with the guitar alfabeto here. in this case Marini (or whoever) has also simply extended the harmony over a G in the bass in anticipation of the 43 to provide a bit more harmonic frisson. I think you are confusing the alfabeto with the continuo part. Repeating the F major chord is Ok if there is no G in the bass. You seemed to be saying that you would repeat the F major chord - omitting the D - which is no longer present in the voice part. What I would do is repeat Dminor7 over the G in the bass. I was at first inclined to omit the A - but it is in fact the 9th of the chord - so no problem. It is a dominant 9th chord with a suspended 4th. So coming full circle to our original discussion, I point you in the direction of Granata's 1674 collection: page 10 second half of bar 13: But this is a different progression altogether. It's a major 7th chord on the 4th degree of the scale or really just a passing 6/4 with combined with a lower auxiliary note in the bass. Incidentally, you asked for an example of where the guitar was accompanied by a bowed bass and, of course, it is in these very pieces for 'Chitarra Spagnola, Violino, e Viola' as mentioned much earlier in this thread. Since the form was known, why Marini (or whoever) didn't therefore add alfabeto to the instrumental ritornelli in his 1622 collection is beyond me I think you are jumping the gun here - in 1622 the guitar only played alfabeto. Granata's pieces are in lute style with only occasional alfabeto chords. Finally, having just looked at Granata1674 again, I'm now rather more convinced the concertati pieces were not conceived as guitar sols (tho' might have been played as such): Well - yes I agree with that. Rgds Monica --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 18:18 Dear Martyn It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin Dear Both of You I have no idea what they believe, but in their (and others') writings I see no word about having found references to the guitar + bowed string, and I suppose anyone would have told so if he/she had read that somewhere. I think I have to say that I agree with Lex. I thought the whole point about this early 17th century Italian song repertoire was that the singer accompanied themselves (if they could) supposedly in imitation of what the ancient Greeks did. Surely this is received wisdom. An over simplification perhaps but still. They are not often performed in this way today and they may not always have been performed in that way in the 17th century. But the current fashion for having a large continuo group is probably inappropriate. The fact that the alfabeto rarely matches the bass part correctly rules out possibility of the guitarist playing along with the bass line in most of this repertoire - at least as it is written. The songs work perfectly well accompanied only by theorbo and also with a simple strummed guitar accompaniment as Lex has demonstrated on his recording of the Obizzi etc. songs. I think this thread has got a bit mixed up - because we started with Granata - and then went on to Grenerin. In this later repertoire the guitar is realizing the written bass part - reproducing it as far as is practical - in the same way as any other instrument. Lex and I disagree as to whether in this set of circumstances the bass line would be doubled by another instrument. I can se no reason why it shouldn't be and depending on what is being accompanied a larger continuo group would be work better. Best Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Lex, I've just posted to Monica about our continuing efforts to misunderstand each other by not very carefully reading what is being written and am sorry to say this is happening yet again: incidentally I point the finger at all three of us. So yet again - sigh. I did not say ' that having a bass in counterpoint to the melody is to be preferred.' ! What I actually said was that in (the relatively few) cases like the 1622 Marini where there is an independent bass line as well as alfabeto to accompany the song then the bass is best played (either on a theorbo, bowed bass or other). But to move on: I'm intrigued that you refer to a 'continuo bass' whereas in the context of Marini's songs I speak of an 'independent bass' line. In view of this, it may be that what actually seperates us is that you see all Marini's bass lines as providing just the framework for the harmony whereas, in some of the pieces, I see a more independent line which not only indicates the harmony but provides additional melodic interest to the top line. In Il Verno, which is the specific example I focussed on earlier, you'll see that there are passages in the bass which respond directly to the vocal line (eg bar 4 and 5 ) even tho' the harmony in each bar (eg the guitar alfabeto) remains static. I see an indepedent bass instrument (theorbo, bowed bass, etc) as being essential in such circumstances in fully realising the composer's intentions. regards Martyn --- On Tue, 26/4/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 13:35 Dear Martyn My observations were withing the context of songs with an independent basso part in addition to the guitar alfabeto, such as the Marini 1622 collection. Clearly, if only the alfabeto were present then I'd generally expect only the guitar. I'd be very grateful if you'd read my postings with more care - it might save us both a lot of time! The present discussion was indeed about Marini 1622, and I had that book in mind, not other collections with just text and alfabeto. And yes, I do think that where an independent basso part is present and the guitar is strumming chords then the bass line is best played by another instrument: bowed bass, theorbo (just solo line?) or other. The alternative which you appear to be suggesting is that we dispense with the written bass line altogether if the guitar strums chords. That seems a reasonable assumption, yes. As remarked earlier, there are very many collections with alfabeto + continuo. Many more than there are books with alfabeto without continuo bass. As I asked in my last message, where would the references be to voice + guitar + other bass line instruments? To not waste your time again: of course it can be argued that the many existing references would all apply to singing to the guitar a repertoire which had no continuo line. This doesn't completely convince me. I think 'they' did not care much, while singing to the guitar was very much a matter of fashion/image. Are you really sure this is what the various other people you mention really believe? I have no idea what they believe, but in their (and others') writings I see no word about having found references to the guitar + bowed string, and I suppose anyone would have told so if he/she had read that somewhere. best, Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
But dear Monica, I'm specifically NOT saying requiring an additional bass instrument (such as theorbo or bowed bass) was general practice - merely that I think it best for Marini's songs with an indepedent bass line (like Il Verno). rgds to both of you Martyn Where's the revolver?. --- On Tue, 26/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 14:25 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin Dear Both of You I have no idea what they believe, but in their (and others') writings I see no word about having found references to the guitar + bowed string, and I suppose anyone would have told so if he/she had read that somewhere. I think I have to say that I agree with Lex. I thought the whole point about this early 17th century Italian song repertoire was that the singer accompanied themselves (if they could) supposedly in imitation of what the ancient Greeks did. Surely this is received wisdom. An over simplification perhaps but still. They are not often performed in this way today and they may not always have been performed in that way in the 17th century. But the current fashion for having a large continuo group is probably inappropriate. The fact that the alfabeto rarely matches the bass part correctly rules out possibility of the guitarist playing along with the bass line in most of this repertoire - at least as it is written. The songs work perfectly well accompanied only by theorbo and also with a simple strummed guitar accompaniment as Lex has demonstrated on his recording of the Obizzi etc. songs. I think this thread has got a bit mixed up - because we started with Granata - and then went on to Grenerin. In this later repertoire the guitar is realizing the written bass part - reproducing it as far as is practical - in the same way as any other instrument. Lex and I disagree as to whether in this set of circumstances the bass line would be doubled by another instrument. I can se no reason why it shouldn't be and depending on what is being accompanied a larger continuo group would be work better. Best Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Dear Martyn And yes, yet again, I would hold (repeat if necessary) the Fmaj chord over the passing dissonant g in the bass to then resolve through the 43 cadence. I don't understand why would you play an F major chord at all. If I were playing the theorbo or keyboard (I have tried in on the keyboard) I would play a D7 minor 1st inversion chord on the bass note F - which is what the voice and bass parts imply - and repeat it on the bass note G. If I were playing the guitar I would not have a separate bass player at all because as I have said I don't think that is what is intended. But there is also another point which I think is important - with the guitar playing a plain F major chord the music moves into the major mode sooner - creating a different effect - there is no dissonance in the guitar part aside from the 4-3 suspension. The problem is that it all time Regards with a smile Monica --- On Tue, 26/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 13:17 Dear Martyn, The F major chord against the note d is simply a 65 chord on a bass F That is exactly what I said. It is the first inversion of a minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale and as you say it is very common in this repertoire. The notes which the chord includes are D F A C. C is the 7th and F is the 3rd and is in the bass. What you call it is immaterial. The voice part is D E F C. The E is a passing note (and it is not clear whether it should be E flat or E natural). The other three notes define the chord. However on the guitar, where common alfabeto has no discrete symbols for such chords, the arranger is obliged to use what is available: since there is already a 6th in the upper part, a chord supplying the 5th was inserted in the guitar (ie an F major chord). Again this is exactly what I said. There is no problem as far as I am concerned with the guitar alfabeto here. in this case Marini (or whoever) has also simply extended the harmony over a G in the bass in anticipation of the 43 to provide a bit more harmonic frisson. I think you are confusing the alfabeto with the continuo part. Repeating the F major chord is Ok if there is no G in the bass. You seemed to be saying that you would repeat the F major chord - omitting the D - which is no longer present in the voice part. What I would do is repeat Dminor7 over the G in the bass. I was at first inclined to omit the A - but it is in fact the 9th of the chord - so no problem. It is a dominant 9th chord with a suspended 4th. So coming full circle to our original discussion, I point you in the direction of Granata's 1674 collection: page 10 second half of bar 13: But this is a different progression altogether. It's a major 7th chord on the 4th degree of the scale or really just a passing 6/4 with combined with a lower auxiliary note in the bass. Incidentally, you asked for an example of where the guitar was accompanied by a bowed bass and, of course, it is in these very pieces for 'Chitarra Spagnola, Violino, e Viola' as mentioned much earlier in this thread. Since the form was known, why Marini (or whoever) didn't therefore add alfabeto to the instrumental ritornelli in his 1622 collection is beyond me I think you are jumping the gun here - in 1622 the guitar only played alfabeto. Granata's pieces are in lute style with only occasional alfabeto chords. Finally, having just looked at Granata1674 again, I'm now rather more convinced the concertati pieces were not conceived as guitar sols (tho' might have been played as such): Well - yes I agree with that. Rgds Monica --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 18:18 Dear Martyn It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor chord held over a G which is anticipating the cadence and creating a momentary passing dissonance which is then resolved. But why would you play an F major chord there at all? The note in the voice part is D - a 6th above the bass - implying a 1st inversion of a D minor chord - F A D.If you are going to play F A C, the voice part is still singing
