[VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Friday, 1 June, 2012, 8:08 Dear Monica, Just to test the envelope a little, a couple of observations arising from this: 1. The high octave on the 4th may, as you say, be a problem (for us) where a higher course note is indicated as not to be played in a chord (eg e' on the first course). Perhaps it tells us something about the tension of the high octave on the 4th - maybe significantly lower than the majority of other strings so as not to be too obtrusive when strummed? 2. And whilst we all(?), me included, generally place our high octaves where the thumb (and downwards index finger) strum touches the high octave first, as you have pointed out explicit primary evidence for this disposition is pretty skimpy (only Ribayez 1677 and the later Strad theorboed guitar stringing instructions). If the disposition is reversed so that the low bass is struck first, the high octave is again less obtrusive. Martyn --- On Thu, 31/5/12, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 31 May, 2012, 15:16 Yes - indeed. This is the age old question - Open courses - to include or not to include? For example - Bartolotti with his wonderful system has still not made it clear whether the 1st or 2nd courses should be included in chords which start on the 4th and 5th courses. In some cases it is obvious(?) because the note(s) are dissonant but there are a lot of ambiguities. It may have been left to the player to use their discretion. There is another ambiguity - and that is De Visee sometimes indicates that the 1st course should be omitted from a chord. But the note will still sound on the 4th course in the upper octave. E.g. in the Courante on p. 16 in Book 1, the 3rd stave down - in the two chords in the first bar which are E major and A major chords he has indicated that the 1st course should be omitted but the E will sound on the 4th course anyway. It is suggested in the introduction to the Eds. Transatlantique ed. that the high octave string should be suppressed there which seems a bit ott to me. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums Indeed, I only mentioned this particular chord as an example: the source I mentioned also has many other partially strummed chords with other courses not to be struck. I wonder how much this was an unwritten practice which we ought to apply more widely in other tablature sources which are not so precise in marking unstrummed strings... Martyn --- On Thu, 31/5/12, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 31 May, 2012, 13:39 To my knowledge none of the sources go into such detail about R-hand technique. De Visee is one of the people who does put dots on the 1st course but as far as I can see all he says is.. When there are dots on some of the lines as you may see here (ex.) you should not strike the strings which they indicate so as to avoid dissonances and to render the melody more distinct. I would imagine it was more a matter of precision and practice. It is not only a problem when you have to leave out the first course. There are sometimes 3-part passages on the lowest three courses or on the middle 3 courses which are just as difficult to play cleanly. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuela Dmth [7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:57 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums Various 5 course guitar tablature sources ask for partial strums in which only some of the courses are to be strummed; unstrummed courses being indicated by dots (although the practice may, of course, be more widespread than suggested only by the tablatures with these dots). A typical example is a G major chord (stopped on the 2nd and 5th courses) but with a dot on the first course indicating a strum of the lower 4 courses but without the first course strummed (eg Lobkowicz Ms OLIM Prague II Ms Kk77 fol 82v - Minuet). Is there any evidence that
[VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums
Yes indeed. In fact the relevant section in the Eds. Transatlantique edition was written by Rafael Andia and on his recording of the complete works of De Visee he does have the bourdon on the 4th course on the thumb side. It doesn't seem to make a lot of difference to the music. As you say there is very little evidence for having it the other way round - and as I have pointed out before it may not be mentioned because re-entrant tunings were standard amd therefore the situation rarely arose. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Monica Hall Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums Dear Monica, Just to test the envelope a little, a couple of observations arising from this: 1. The high octave on the 4th may, as you say, be a problem (for us) where a higher course note is indicated as not to be played in a chord (eg e' on the first course). Perhaps it tells us something about the tension of the high octave on the 4th - maybe significantly lower than the majority of other strings so as not to be too obtrusive when strummed? 2. And whilst we all (?), me included, generally place our high octaves where the thumb (and downwards index finger) strum touches the high octave first, as you have pointed out explicit primary evidence for this disposition is pretty skimpy (only Ribayez 1677 and the later Strad theorboed guitar stringing instructions). If the disposition is reversed so that the low bass is struck first, the high octave is again less obtrusive. Martyn --- On Thu, 31/5/12, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 31 May, 2012, 15:16 Yes - indeed. This is the age old question - Open courses - to include or not to include? For example - Bartolotti with his wonderful system has still not made it clear whether the 1st or 2nd courses should be included in chords which start on the 4th and 5th courses. In some cases it is obvious(?) because the note(s) are dissonant but there are a lot of ambiguities. It may have been left to the player to use their discretion. There is another ambiguity - and that is De Visee sometimes indicates that the 1st course should be omitted from a chord. But the note will still sound on the 4th course in the upper octave. E.g. in the Courante on p. 16 in Book 1, the 3rd stave down - in the two chords in the first bar which are E major and A major chords he has indicated that the 1st course should be omitted but the E will sound on the 4th course anyway. It is suggested in the introduction to the Eds. Transatlantique ed. that the high octave string should be suppressed there which seems a bit ott to me. Monica - Original Message - From: [3]Martyn Hodgson To: [4]Monica Hall Cc: [5]Vihuelalist Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums Indeed, I only mentioned this particular chord as an example: the source I mentioned also has many other partially strummed chords with other courses not to be struck. I wonder how much this was an unwritten practice which we ought to apply more widely in other tablature sources which are not so precise in marking unstrummed strings... Martyn --- On Thu, 31/5/12, Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 31 May, 2012, 13:39 To my knowledge none of the sources go into such detail about R-hand technique. De Visee is one of the people who does put dots on the 1st course but as far as I can see all he says is.. When there are dots on some of the lines as you may see here (ex.) you should not strike the strings which they indicate so as to avoid dissonances and to render the melody more distinct. I would imagine it was more a matter of precision and practice. It is not only a problem when you have to leave out the first course. There are sometimes 3-part passages on the lowest three courses or on the middle 3 courses which are just as difficult to play cleanly. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuela Dmth [9]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:57 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums Various 5 course guitar tablature sources ask for partial strums in which only
[VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums
I am curious if there is an answer to your question. Tangentally, I have a theory that so many strummed chords didn't include the 5th course, that they didn't even bother to put a dot there if it would make a dissonance, they just assumed you wouldn't include it in the strum. On May 31, 2012, at 6:57 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Various 5 course guitar tablature sources ask for partial strums in which only some of the courses are to be strummed; unstrummed courses being indicated by dots (although the practice may, of course, be more widespread than suggested only by the tablatures with these dots). A typical example is a G major chord (stopped on the 2nd and 5th courses) but with a dot on the first course indicating a strum of the lower 4 courses but without the first course strummed (eg Lobkowicz Ms OLIM Prague II Ms Kk77 fol 82v - Minuet). Is there any evidence that these were ever performed by using, say, the middle finger of the right hand (or even a spare left hand finger) to damp the unplayed course or is it simply a matter of precision in execution of the strum with the index finger? MH -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums
Dear Ed, You'll have seen by now Monica Hall's response and our subsequent discussion. Unless there's any other input, it seems there is no evidence to suggest this sort of string damping - it's probably just a question of employing great precision in strumming; but I'll keep an open mind. Your point about the 5th course is certainly well made, however, missing this course is not so tricky as avoiding playing the first course when using a downwards index strum. Indeed, I raised the matter since I'd heard quite a few players accidentally (I presume) strum a dissonance by catching the first course especially (tho', of course, the occasional unexpected dissonance might be thought to be part of the idiosyncratic charm of the instrument...). MH Martyn --- On Fri, 1/6/12, Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp wrote: From: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums To: vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 1 June, 2012, 12:30 I am curious if there is an answer to your question. Tangentally, I have a theory that so many strummed chords didn't include the 5th course, that they didn't even bother to put a dot there if it would make a dissonance, they just assumed you wouldn't include it in the strum. On May 31, 2012, at 6:57 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Various 5 course guitar tablature sources ask for partial strums in which only some of the courses are to be strummed; unstrummed courses being indicated by dots (although the practice may, of course, be more widespread than suggested only by the tablatures with these dots). A typical example is a G major chord (stopped on the 2nd and 5th courses) but with a dot on the first course indicating a strum of the lower 4 courses but without the first course strummed (eg Lobkowicz Ms OLIM Prague II Ms Kk77 fol 82v - Minuet). Is there any evidence that these were ever performed by using, say, the middle finger of the right hand (or even a spare left hand finger) to damp the unplayed course or is it simply a matter of precision in execution of the strum with the index finger? MH -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums
On Jun 1, 2012, at 9:35 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Your point about the 5th course is certainly well made, however, missing this course is not so tricky as avoiding playing the first course when using a downwards index strum. Indeed, I raised the matter since I'd heard quite a few players accidentally (I presume) strum a dissonance by catching the first course especially (tho', of course, the occasional unexpected dissonance might be thought to be part of the idiosyncratic charm of the instrument...). If damping the 1st string with the left hand produces the desired musical effect, it is hard to imagine the HIP police coming for you. It is not like that is so out of the ordinary. I figure every player had their idiosyncratic tricks and maybe withheld some explanations of their techniques in their publications so as not to give it all away. There are so many tables and instructions in so many sources that I haven't even seen, I often have an urge to ask questions about nearly everything. I just recently wrote up an email to send to this list asking about ornamentation in Corbetta, but in the end I just pretty much used his table and my instincts and decided I liked the way I was doing it and didn't want to hear contrary evidence. :-) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums
It is only in French sources that they put in dots at all. They are not used in Italian sources. The idea seems to be prevalent that they included open courses rather indiscriminately but I don't think this is so. The sources which mention that you should include the open courses - Colonna, Foscarini, Pesori are referring to the standard alfabeto chords. Monica - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To: vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 12:30 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums I am curious if there is an answer to your question. Tangentally, I have a theory that so many strummed chords didn't include the 5th course, that they didn't even bother to put a dot there if it would make a dissonance, they just assumed you wouldn't include it in the strum. On May 31, 2012, at 6:57 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Various 5 course guitar tablature sources ask for partial strums in which only some of the courses are to be strummed; unstrummed courses being indicated by dots (although the practice may, of course, be more widespread than suggested only by the tablatures with these dots). A typical example is a G major chord (stopped on the 2nd and 5th courses) but with a dot on the first course indicating a strum of the lower 4 courses but without the first course strummed (eg Lobkowicz Ms OLIM Prague II Ms Kk77 fol 82v - Minuet). Is there any evidence that these were ever performed by using, say, the middle finger of the right hand (or even a spare left hand finger) to damp the unplayed course or is it simply a matter of precision in execution of the strum with the index finger? MH -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums
To be pedantic, the Ms with dots I mentioned (a Lobkowicz Ms - OLIM Prague II Ms Kk77) is probably Austrian or Bohemian in origin. In fact the title page of the first part has ' Pieces Composee Par le Comte Logis' - though perhaps arrangements (if that) rather than original guitar compositions by Losy. Martyn --- On Fri, 1/6/12, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums To: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 1 June, 2012, 17:01 It is only in French sources that they put in dots at all. They are not used in Italian sources. The idea seems to be prevalent that they included open courses rather indiscriminately but I don't think this is so. The sources which mention that you should include the open courses - Colonna, Foscarini, Pesori are referring to the standard alfabeto chords. Monica - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To: vl [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 12:30 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums I am curious if there is an answer to your question. Tangentally, I have a theory that so many strummed chords didn't include the 5th course, that they didn't even bother to put a dot there if it would make a dissonance, they just assumed you wouldn't include it in the strum. On May 31, 2012, at 6:57 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Various 5 course guitar tablature sources ask for partial strums in which only some of the courses are to be strummed; unstrummed courses being indicated by dots (although the practice may, of course, be more widespread than suggested only by the tablatures with these dots). A typical example is a G major chord (stopped on the 2nd and 5th courses) but with a dot on the first course indicating a strum of the lower 4 courses but without the first course strummed (eg Lobkowicz Ms OLIM Prague II Ms Kk77 fol 82v - Minuet). Is there any evidence that these were ever performed by using, say, the middle finger of the right hand (or even a spare left hand finger) to damp the unplayed course or is it simply a matter of precision in execution of the strum with the index finger? MH -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%adurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums
Well - I should have said in French tablature - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 5:15 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums To be pedantic, the Ms with dots I mentioned (a Lobkowicz Ms - OLIM Prague II Ms Kk77) is probably Austrian or Bohemian in origin. In fact the title page of the first part has ' Pieces Composee Par le Comte Logis' - though perhaps arrangements (if that) rather than original guitar compositions by Losy. Martyn --- On Fri, 1/6/12, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums To: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 1 June, 2012, 17:01 It is only in French sources that they put in dots at all. They are not used in Italian sources. The idea seems to be prevalent that they included open courses rather indiscriminately but I don't think this is so. The sources which mention that you should include the open courses - Colonna, Foscarini, Pesori are referring to the standard alfabeto chords. Monica - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To: vl [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 12:30 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums I am curious if there is an answer to your question. Tangentally, I have a theory that so many strummed chords didn't include the 5th course, that they didn't even bother to put a dot there if it would make a dissonance, they just assumed you wouldn't include it in the strum. On May 31, 2012, at 6:57 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Various 5 course guitar tablature sources ask for partial strums in which only some of the courses are to be strummed; unstrummed courses being indicated by dots (although the practice may, of course, be more widespread than suggested only by the tablatures with these dots). A typical example is a G major chord (stopped on the 2nd and 5th courses) but with a dot on the first course indicating a strum of the lower 4 courses but without the first course strummed (eg Lobkowicz Ms OLIM Prague II Ms Kk77 fol 82v - Minuet). Is there any evidence that these were ever performed by using, say, the middle finger of the right hand (or even a spare left hand finger) to damp the unplayed course or is it simply a matter of precision in execution of the strum with the index finger? MH -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%adurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
