[VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern
I think it's just an oversight. Chris has so much to do he can be excused this time. But it is just the type of detail for which an editor must watch. CCC (etc.) may be a system Peter Holman uses. But the consequences can be confusing and misleading, as we discovered in this thread. The New HDM also uses the c' = middle c. And that surely is the system most of us are accustomed to using. Chris should have "translated" Peter's system into the standard one. A lesson learned. - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "A. J. Ness" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 9:34 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern The system which Grove On Line uses has a lower case c' for middle c and c for the octave below - which as far as I know is standard and known as Helmholtz notation. It is the one which I have always used myself. I can't imagine why Lute News chose to do something different. I must tell the editor off! Monica - Original Message - From: "A. J. Ness" To: "Monica Hall" Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern It's so unusual that if you ever see the notation F#F#F# - CC - BbBbBb you'll remember it. I remembered it, but not where I saw it. Iteresting that it's so old. The editors of Lute News should use a common system, such as that used in New Grove. Andrew Hartig sent me a link to Doc's article on he cittern in America. I've often wanted to know more about the use of the instrument in Boston. http://www.cetrapublishing.com/artists/rossi/colonial_paper.pdf It's bitterly cold here today, and the boiler for the apartment house is not working. Regards, Arthur. - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "A. J. Ness" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 12:35 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern Thank-your - there do seem to be different schemes to confuse the unwary! Monica ----- Original Message - From: "A. J. Ness" To: "Monica Hall" ; ""Vihuelalist"" Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern Dear Monica, There are many schemes for designating the various octaves of musical pitch. See _New_HDM_, page 640, bottom of the first column. CC indicates the C with two ledger lines below the bass clef, C the C in the bass clef and c as middle C, octave above that c', then c" etc. It is a system of indicating pitch used by English organ builders and dates back to 1519. (See _New_Grove_, "pitch nomenclature," Example 1/2.) Sounds like a system that the Galpin Society would use in their publications. Lute News hasn't reached me yet, so you've piqued my curiosity. Arthur. - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: "Vihuelalist" <[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 6:52 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Arch-cittern > Those of you who belong to the Lute Society will have received the > latest number of Lute News. (Apologies to those of you who aren't > members). This has a reproduction of the portrait of the actress > Dorothy Jordan playing an arch-cittern - which looks a bit > like an English guitar with additional diapasons. There is a > commentary by Peter Holman. > > > > There are one or two things which I think experts on these instruments > might be able to clarify for me. > > > > The first of these is where he mentions the possibility that the colour > coded strings are harp strings and then says "this would mean that > Jordan tuned them in a diatonic sequence rising from CC. > > > > According to both the Oxford Concise and Harvard Dictionaries there is > no such thing as CC. C alone would indicate that the lowest diapason > was tuned to the note C below the bass clef - i.e. with 2 leger > lines. C1 is an octave below that which seems a bit unlikely. > > > > So what is the lowest note? Is "CC" a misprint for "C". > > > > The other question is about the music on p.7. I'm assuming that both > parts are supposed to be played on a single instrument. If so the > notes on the lower stave will occasionally overlap with those on the > upper stave. Are we supposed to read the lower stave an octave lower? > > > > Hope I have made myself clear. > > > > Monica > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern
The system which Grove On Line uses has a lower case c' for middle c and c for the octave below - which as far as I know is standard and known as Helmholtz notation. It is the one which I have always used myself. I can't imagine why Lute News chose to do something different. I must tell the editor off! Monica - Original Message - From: "A. J. Ness" To: "Monica Hall" Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern It's so unusual that if you ever see the notation F#F#F# - CC - BbBbBb you'll remember it. I remembered it, but not where I saw it. Iteresting that it's so old. The editors of Lute News should use a common system, such as that used in New Grove. Andrew Hartig sent me a link to Doc's article on he cittern in America. I've often wanted to know more about the use of the instrument in Boston. http://www.cetrapublishing.com/artists/rossi/colonial_paper.pdf It's bitterly cold here today, and the boiler for the apartment house is not working. Regards, Arthur. - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "A. J. Ness" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 12:35 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern Thank-your - there do seem to be different schemes to confuse the unwary! Monica - Original Message - From: "A. J. Ness" To: "Monica Hall" ; ""Vihuelalist"" Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern Dear Monica, There are many schemes for designating the various octaves of musical pitch. See _New_HDM_, page 640, bottom of the first column. CC indicates the C with two ledger lines below the bass clef, C the C in the bass clef and c as middle C, octave above that c', then c" etc. It is a system of indicating pitch used by English organ builders and dates back to 1519. (See _New_Grove_, "pitch nomenclature," Example 1/2.) Sounds like a system that the Galpin Society would use in their publications. Lute News hasn't reached me yet, so you've piqued my curiosity. Arthur. - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: "Vihuelalist" <[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 6:52 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Arch-cittern > Those of you who belong to the Lute Society will have received the > latest number of Lute News. (Apologies to those of you who aren't > members). This has a reproduction of the portrait of the actress > Dorothy Jordan playing an arch-cittern - which looks a bit > like an English guitar with additional diapasons. There is a > commentary by Peter Holman. > > > > There are one or two things which I think experts on these instruments > might be able to clarify for me. > > > > The first of these is where he mentions the possibility that the colour > coded strings are harp strings and then says "this would mean that > Jordan tuned them in a diatonic sequence rising from CC. > > > > According to both the Oxford Concise and Harvard Dictionaries there is > no such thing as CC. C alone would indicate that the lowest diapason > was tuned to the note C below the bass clef - i.e. with 2 leger > lines. C1 is an octave below that which seems a bit unlikely. > > > > So what is the lowest note? Is "CC" a misprint for "C". > > > > The other question is about the music on p.7. I'm assuming that both > parts are supposed to be played on a single instrument. If so the > notes on the lower stave will occasionally overlap with those on the > upper stave. Are we supposed to read the lower stave an octave lower? > > > > Hope I have made myself clear. > > > > Monica > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern
The other question is about the music on p.7. I'm assuming that both parts are supposed to be played on a single instrument. If so the notes on the lower stave will occasionally overlap with those on the upper stave. Are we supposed to read the lower stave an octave lower? This looks exactly like a song arranged for TWO instruments - two English guitars (guittars) or equivalents And at the same pitch). The music for these later instruments with extra basses around 1800, or the music I've seen, is very simple and uses some of the simplest music originally arranged for the English guitar, now out of fashion. This just prompts me to ask one other question. I have just been watching the DVD of the drama series about Charles II which was on TV a few years ago. In one scene where he is having a row with Lady Castelmaine in the background there is one of these "lyre-guitars" i.e. it looks like a lyre but has a guitar fingerboard if you know what I mean. I was under the impression that these became fashionable much later. Is there any evidence that such instruments were in use at the Restoration Court - or is it just a figment of the producer's imagination? I think someone asked this question before but can't remember the answer. Monica Hope I have made myself clear. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern or rather Lute-guitar
Thank you for replying at length. It's interesting about the teeth - as they often had rather bad ones in the 18th-19th century. In "Pride and prejudice" (which I know almost off by heart) Miss Bingley says of Elizabeth Bennett "Her teeth are tolerable" when commenting on her appearance. At the ripe old age of about 20 she probably still had some. Not something we would comment on today! Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Vihuelalist" ; "Monica Hall" Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 2:43 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern or rather Lute-guitar Dear Monica, Yes - I suspect it's a misprint. C below the bass clef is quite low enough for gut strings of such modest length. I also don't think it right to call it an arch-cittern: Jordan probably called it a lute (she is described playing 'the lute' in contemporary reports as Peter's paper points out). The instrument depicted is similar to the large number of these extant theorboed type of instruments which were invented (especially in France, as well as England) during the final decades of the 18th century and continued into the first few of the 19th primarily for Drawing Room use. Many of these have the same basic characteristics: single strings, strings of gut, typically 7 fingered strings - as Jordan's, varying nos of basses from 4 to 14 eg see Baines Nos 326, 332, 334. Baines calls them by various names including arch-guitar and harp guitar. And, of course, by around 1800 the whole thing had degenerated into things like the Harp-lute-guitar (most famously in England associated with Light and Ventura - but other makers cashed in on the fad). Baines thinks the early instruments (say 1770 1800) were tuned like the English guitar with first six strings in a chord (of C) and this makes sense, but I also think we tend to underestimate the importance of these sort of instruments in continental, especially pre-revolutionary French (and Flanders), culture and they might have also tuned the highest courses in a chord but at a lower nominal pitch (say in A like the contemporary French cistre which, of course did have metal strings and double strings to each course and many also had free bases see Baines again). I think by c 1800 in France (and England) more of these were being tuned like the newly popular guitar and, indeed, much music says it is for lute or guitar. I think the best modern name for them is lute-guitar combining the early notion of 'antick' instruments and the modern style of play in a guitar fashion. For the latter see the example of 'The Blue Bells of Scotland' which employs simple and typical guitar arpeggios for a piece labelled as for 'GUITAR or LUTE'. By chance I had a communication only yesterday with someone else on the same sort of subject which is why, I guess, I'm writing at length. One thing is clear: it took someone quite outside the lute and guitar world to look at these instruments with a fresh eye - a good area for a post grad paper with v little competition. A later instrument, often called the 'bass guitar' is not really the same at all (tho superficially similar and thus a good candidate to confuse museum curators) since it developed from the 6 string guitar in the 1820s through works of people like Mertz, Coste, Dubez et al.. Finally can you spot anything about Dorothy Jordan from the painting? - she is painted with her mouth closed ( as so many people were historically). I suspect this might be because she had few upper teeth - see her upper lip line... but she was not alone rgds Martyn --- On Fri, 18/2/11, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: [VIHUELA] Arch-cittern To: "Vihuelalist" Date: Friday, 18 February, 2011, 11:52 Those of you who belong to the Lute Society will have received the latest number of Lute News. (Apologies to those of you who aren't members). This has a reproduction of the portrait of the actress Dorothy Jordan playing an arch-cittern - which looks a bit like an English guitar with additional diapasons. There is a commentary by Peter Holman. There are one or two things which I think experts on these instruments might be able to clarify for me. The first of these is where he mentions the possibility that the colour coded strings are harp strings and then says "this would mean that Jordan tuned them in a diatonic sequence rising from CC. According to both the Oxford Concise and Harvard Dictionaries there is no such thing as CC. C alone would indicate that the lowest diapason was tuned to the note C below the bass clef - i.e. with 2 leger lines. C1 is an octave b
[VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern
Thank-your - there do seem to be different schemes to confuse the unwary! Monica - Original Message - From: "A. J. Ness" To: "Monica Hall" ; ""Vihuelalist"" Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern Dear Monica, There are many schemes for designating the various octaves of musical pitch. See _New_HDM_, page 640, bottom of the first column. CC indicates the C with two ledger lines below the bass clef, C the C in the bass clef and c as middle C, octave above that c', then c" etc. It is a system of indicating pitch used by English organ builders and dates back to 1519. (See _New_Grove_, "pitch nomenclature," Example 1/2.) Sounds like a system that the Galpin Society would use in their publications. Lute News hasn't reached me yet, so you've piqued my curiosity. Arthur. - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: "Vihuelalist" <[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 6:52 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Arch-cittern > Those of you who belong to the Lute Society will have received the > latest number of Lute News. (Apologies to those of you who aren't > members). This has a reproduction of the portrait of the actress > Dorothy Jordan playing an arch-cittern - which looks a bit > like an English guitar with additional diapasons. There is a > commentary by Peter Holman. > > > > There are one or two things which I think experts on these instruments > might be able to clarify for me. > > > > The first of these is where he mentions the possibility that the colour > coded strings are harp strings and then says "this would mean that > Jordan tuned them in a diatonic sequence rising from CC. > > > > According to both the Oxford Concise and Harvard Dictionaries there is > no such thing as CC. C alone would indicate that the lowest diapason > was tuned to the note C below the bass clef - i.e. with 2 leger > lines. C1 is an octave below that which seems a bit unlikely. > > > > So what is the lowest note? Is "CC" a misprint for "C". > > > > The other question is about the music on p.7. I'm assuming that both > parts are supposed to be played on a single instrument. If so the > notes on the lower stave will occasionally overlap with those on the > upper stave. Are we supposed to read the lower stave an octave lower? > > > > Hope I have made myself clear. > > > > Monica > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern
On 18/02/2011 11:52, Monica Hall wrote: Those of you who belong to the Lute Society will have received the latest number of Lute News. (Apologies to those of you who aren't members). This has a reproduction of the portrait of the actress Dorothy Jordan playing an arch-cittern - which looks a bit like an English guitar with additional diapasons. There is a commentary by Peter Holman. It's not an arch-cittern, which would typically have four pairs of wire strings at the top and descending single basses. As the article says, 'lutes' were around at the time and would mean indicate something tuned to a major chord. There were 'lutes', harp-lutes (not to be confused with later harp-lutes!), harp-lute-guitars, but now with single gut strings, not wire. Some instruments were tuned to an E flat major chord, but the music is written in C. The other question is about the music on p.7. I'm assuming that both parts are supposed to be played on a single instrument. If so the notes on the lower stave will occasionally overlap with those on the upper stave. Are we supposed to read the lower stave an octave lower? This looks exactly like a song arranged for TWO instruments - two English guitars (guittars) or equivalents And at the same pitch). The music for these later instruments with extra basses around 1800, or the music I've seen, is very simple and uses some of the simplest music originally arranged for the English guitar, now out of fashion. Stuart Hope I have made myself clear. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern or rather Lute-guitar
Dear Monica, Yes - I suspect it's a misprint. C below the bass clef is quite low enough for gut strings of such modest length. I also don't think it right to call it an arch-cittern: Jordan probably called it a lute (she is described playing 'the lute' in contemporary reports as Peter's paper points out). The instrument depicted is similar to the large number of these extant theorboed type of instruments which were invented (especially in France, as well as England) during the final decades of the 18th century and continued into the first few of the 19th primarily for Drawing Room use. Many of these have the same basic characteristics: single strings, strings of gut, typically 7 fingered strings - as Jordan's, varying nos of basses from 4 to 14 eg see Baines Nos 326, 332, 334. Baines calls them by various names including arch-guitar and harp guitar. And, of course, by around 1800 the whole thing had degenerated into things like the Harp-lute-guitar (most famously in England associated with Light and Ventura - but other makers cashed in on the fad). Baines thinks the early instruments (say 1770 1800) were tuned like the English guitar with first six strings in a chord (of C) and this makes sense, but I also think we tend to underestimate the importance of these sort of instruments in continental, especially pre-revolutionary French (and Flanders), culture and they might have also tuned the highest courses in a chord but at a lower nominal pitch (say in A like the contemporary French cistre which, of course did have metal strings and double strings to each course and many also had free bases see Baines again). I think by c 1800 in France (and England) more of these were being tuned like the newly popular guitar and, indeed, much music says it is for lute or guitar. I think the best modern name for them is lute-guitar combining the early notion of 'antick' instruments and the modern style of play in a guitar fashion. For the latter see the example of 'The Blue Bells of Scotland' which employs simple and typical guitar arpeggios for a piece labelled as for 'GUITAR or LUTE'. By chance I had a communication only yesterday with someone else on the same sort of subject which is why, I guess, I'm writing at length. One thing is clear: it took someone quite outside the lute and guitar world to look at these instruments with a fresh eye - a good area for a post grad paper with v little competition. A later instrument, often called the 'bass guitar' is not really the same at all (tho superficially similar and thus a good candidate to confuse museum curators) since it developed from the 6 string guitar in the 1820s through works of people like Mertz, Coste, Dubez et al.. Finally can you spot anything about Dorothy Jordan from the painting? - she is painted with her mouth closed ( as so many people were historically). I suspect this might be because she had few upper teeth - see her upper lip line... but she was not alone rgds Martyn --- On Fri, 18/2/11, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: [VIHUELA] Arch-cittern To: "Vihuelalist" Date: Friday, 18 February, 2011, 11:52 Those of you who belong to the Lute Society will have received the latest number of Lute News. (Apologies to those of you who aren't members). This has a reproduction of the portrait of the actress Dorothy Jordan playing an arch-cittern - which looks a bit like an English guitar with additional diapasons. There is a commentary by Peter Holman. There are one or two things which I think experts on these instruments might be able to clarify for me. The first of these is where he mentions the possibility that the colour coded strings are harp strings and then says "this would mean that Jordan tuned them in a diatonic sequence rising from CC. According to both the Oxford Concise and Harvard Dictionaries there is no such thing as CC. C alone would indicate that the lowest diapason was tuned to the note C below the bass clef - i.e. with 2 leger lines. C1 is an octave below that which seems a bit unlikely. So what is the lowest note? Is "CC" a misprint for "C". The other question is about the music on p.7. I'm assuming that both parts are supposed to be played on a single instrument. If so the notes on the lower stave will occasionally overlap with those on the upper stave. Are we supposed to read the lower stave an octave lower? Hope I have made myself clear. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern
Dear Monica, There are many schemes for designating the various octaves of musical pitch. See _New_HDM_, page 640, bottom of the first column. CC indicates the C with two ledger lines below the bass clef, C the C in the bass clef and c as middle C, octave above that c', then c" etc. It is a system of indicating pitch used by English organ builders and dates back to 1519. (See _New_Grove_, "pitch nomenclature," Example 1/2.) Sounds like a system that the Galpin Society would use in their publications. Lute News hasn't reached me yet, so you've piqued my curiosity. Arthur. - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: "Vihuelalist" <[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 6:52 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Arch-cittern > Those of you who belong to the Lute Society will have received the > latest number of Lute News. (Apologies to those of you who aren't > members). This has a reproduction of the portrait of the actress > Dorothy Jordan playing an arch-cittern - which looks a bit > like an English guitar with additional diapasons. There is a > commentary by Peter Holman. > > > > There are one or two things which I think experts on these instruments > might be able to clarify for me. > > > > The first of these is where he mentions the possibility that the colour > coded strings are harp strings and then says "this would mean that > Jordan tuned them in a diatonic sequence rising from CC. > > > > According to both the Oxford Concise and Harvard Dictionaries there is > no such thing as CC. C alone would indicate that the lowest diapason > was tuned to the note C below the bass clef - i.e. with 2 leger > lines. C1 is an octave below that which seems a bit unlikely. > > > > So what is the lowest note? Is "CC" a misprint for "C". > > > > The other question is about the music on p.7. I'm assuming that both > parts are supposed to be played on a single instrument. If so the > notes on the lower stave will occasionally overlap with those on the > upper stave. Are we supposed to read the lower stave an octave lower? > > > > Hope I have made myself clear. > > > > Monica > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
