[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3
Dear Monica, I very much agree about Kozena's singing: there's a fashion for well known sopranos to try their hand at small scale 'early music' but few seem to be able to make the transition succesfully (somewhat like similar rather wincing attempts at Broadway musicals). In addition to problems evident in her rendition of 'Si dolce tormento', what I found particularly disturbing was a frequent inability to get the pitch quite right - whether this was because she was trying to control her (pitch) vibrato or because she was unused to being accompanied by a relatively small band (with relatively soft instruments - bear in mind we're not hearing the performance but the performance tweaked by sound engineers so don't really know what the actual balance was). Perhaps she's happier with orchestral accompaniment - I understand her Handel and Gluck opera roles have gone down well in the past. I ought to say this doesn't just apply to Kozena: I recently heard Blow's Venus and Adonis with Venus sung by the operatic soprano Rosemary Joshua which had similar pitching problems - not just me, acquintances also remarked on it. Presumably producers judge that the fame of the name will ensure recording sales. M PS I also agree about the kitchen sink - but again I largely blame the producers and sound engineers who I suspect encourage bands in this manner of delivery, thinking it will be more 'exciting' and the novelty will thus generate more listening/sales. --- On Thu, 26/8/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 26 August, 2010, 19:42 Thank you for that!I was listening to the concert on the Radio 3 website but I couldn't recognise it at all. It sounded a bit like Piccinini's Chiaccona Cappona alla vera Spagnola. Maybe it's just something they have made up themselves and attributed to Foscarini. His book does include a different Chiaccona of Piccinini's. I dont really like these arrangements with everything but the kitchen sink in them. That's one of the few things I agree with Lex about. Baroque guitar music is meant to be played on the baroque guitar. I didn't particularly like Magdalena Kozuna's singing either - what I heard of it. I think she completely spoiled Monteverdi's Si dolce tormento. Maybe I will find time to listen to the rest of the concert before they wipe it off. Meanwhile - leave it on you website. If I listen to it a few more times I might trace it. Cheers Monica --- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:41 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Foscarini on Radio 3 The whole concert by Private Musicke (and brief description of it) can be heard here. The songs and pieces were played uninterrupted in each half. This, presumably, is the Foscarini: [3]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Ff.mp3 Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Ff.mp3 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3
Dear Martyn Yes - I agree with everything you say. I haven't listened to the whole concert yet - I got as far as the Foscarini piece and gave up. Maybe I will have time for the rest this weekend. I am quite often sent CDs to review of this early Italian repertoire and the unsuitabilty of the singers in general is a problem especially we are not encouraged to say what we think! I suppose the tin-pan alley approach is adopted to try and make the music appeal to a broader audience. In the end musicians have to earn a living. Just performing the songs with a single plucked string accompaniment, which may have been the norm, is just not going to attract many to the cause. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 8:06 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 Dear Monica, I very much agree about Kozena's singing: there's a fashion for well known sopranos to try their hand at small scale 'early music' but few seem to be able to make the transition succesfully (somewhat like similar rather wincing attempts at Broadway musicals). In addition to problems evident in her rendition of 'Si dolce tormento', what I found particularly disturbing was a frequent inability to get the pitch quite right - whether this was because she was trying to control her (pitch) vibrato or because she was unused to being accompanied by a relatively small band (with relatively soft instruments - bear in mind we're not hearing the performance but the performance tweaked by sound engineers so don't really know what the actual balance was). Perhaps she's happier with orchestral accompaniment - I understand her Handel and Gluck opera roles have gone down well in the past. I ought to say this doesn't just apply to Kozena: I recently heard Blow's Venus and Adonis with Venus sung by the operatic soprano Rosemary Joshua which had similar pitching problems - not just me, acquintances also remarked on it. Presumably producers judge that the fame of the name will ensure recording sales. M PS I also agree about the kitchen sink - but again I largely blame the producers and sound engineers who I suspect encourage bands in this manner of delivery, thinking it will be more 'exciting' and the novelty will thus generate more listening/sales. --- On Thu, 26/8/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 26 August, 2010, 19:42 Thank you for that!I was listening to the concert on the Radio 3 website but I couldn't recognise it at all. It sounded a bit like Piccinini's Chiaccona Cappona alla vera Spagnola. Maybe it's just something they have made up themselves and attributed to Foscarini. His book does include a different Chiaccona of Piccinini's. I dont really like these arrangements with everything but the kitchen sink in them. That's one of the few things I agree with Lex about. Baroque guitar music is meant to be played on the baroque guitar. I didn't particularly like Magdalena Kozuna's singing either - what I heard of it. I think she completely spoiled Monteverdi's Si dolce tormento. Maybe I will find time to listen to the rest of the concert before they wipe it off. Meanwhile - leave it on you website. If I listen to it a few more times I might trace it. Cheers Monica --- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:41 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Foscarini on Radio 3 The whole concert by Private Musicke (and brief description of it) can be heard here. The songs and pieces were played uninterrupted in each half. This, presumably, is the Foscarini: [3]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Ff.mp3 Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Ff.mp3 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3
Interesting... To my unschooled ears, I didn't find anything objectionable in the Foscarini. I'll admit that I'm getting tired of the ciaconna rhythm and its ilk... It's getting very popular I think because it's so approachable. Sort of like los Tangos are popular in Flamenco because anybody can locate himself in that rhythm... unlike Bularias, for example which are far more complex. Likewise the ciaconna, where I can imagine hordes of listeners swaying along gently with the tiorbo player... Very easy listening. But as to kitchen sinks and all... Well, no doubt there was some sort of control over acceptable performances and arrangements of this music. So a kitchen sink virtuoso might find it difficult to get a gig playing for the local nobility. But I find it hard to accept that there were no impromptu sessions where players of any instrument handy (sink included) might join in to play along with some of the favorites, greatest hits, etc. I think there *is* an urge to popularize early music these days. Groups mount performances that they hope look and feel like these popular impromptu sessions they imagine. That is one way to popularize the music... recreate the music's popularity. (Have I used that word root sufficiently?) The only evidence I can personally site for impromptu playing is this... I play a mandore. As far as I know, there are two manuscripts for this instrument -- F. de Chancy, and Skene. Yet there are records among luthiers and violeros showing htey made many, many examples of this instrument. Who played it, and where? What music was played on it? Surely, hundreds and hundreds of people didn't commission these instruments so they could play pieces from two manuscripts. I can only believe that people worked out their old favorites in their spare time. And I further conjecture that they joined in the fun when friends got together to play. The playing of music was the only way you were going to hear it, after all. And indeed, I have been fortunate enough to be included in some arrangements as a mandore player, although no such part was written. Historically accurate? Who knows. Musically enjoyable? For me it was. I'm sure there are other reasons to believe people joined together, with what instruments they had, to play a tune as best as they could. And so I've noticed that larger ensemble performances are ever more in vogue. It doesn't bother me all that much. I can still play solo music, I can still find smaller arrangements to listen to. I just see a different angle on the music when I hear a larger ensemble. But I am no kind of historian. Maybe I'm an example of exactly why you don't like these sorts of arrangements. But there it is... cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, August 27, 2010 7:00:18 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 Dear Martyn Yes - I agree with everything you say. I haven't listened to the whole concert yet - I got as far as the Foscarini piece and gave up. Maybe I will have time for the rest this weekend. I am quite often sent CDs to review of this early Italian repertoire and the unsuitabilty of the singers in general is a problem especially we are not encouraged to say what we think! I suppose the tin-pan alley approach is adopted to try and make the music appeal to a broader audience. In the end musicians have to earn a living. Just performing the songs with a single plucked string accompaniment, which may have been the norm, is just not going to attract many to the cause. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com; Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 8:06 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 Dear Monica, I very much agree about Kozena's singing: there's a fashion for well known sopranos to try their hand at small scale 'early music' but few seem to be able to make the transition succesfully (somewhat like similar rather wincing attempts at Broadway musicals). In addition to problems evident in her rendition of 'Si dolce tormento', what I found particularly disturbing was a frequent inability to get the pitch quite right - whether this was because she was trying to control her (pitch) vibrato or because she was unused to being accompanied by a relatively small band (with relatively soft instruments - bear in mind we're not hearing the performance but the performance tweaked
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3
On 27 August 2010 14:14, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Interesting... To my unschooled ears, I didn't find anything objectionable in the Foscarini. Indeed it would be hard to find it objectionable. It's pleasing and very well played. But Monica has spent a lot of time ploughing through the Foscarini tablatures and it's a bit odd if she doesn't recognise it as actually by Foscarini. Anway, I don't think there is anything as straightforward and clear as this anywhere in Foscarini! Any performance of Foscarini will be a reconstruction job. And this performance by Private Musicke is an arrangement of some sort of reconstruction of a solo guitar piece. Likewise the ciaconna, where I can imagine hordes of listeners swaying along gently with the tiorbo player... Very easy listening. I play a mandore. As far as I know, there are two manuscripts for this instrument -- F. de Chancy, and Skene. Chris, I thought I had emailed you - and had referred to Jean-Marie Poirier's site which has just about everything there is to know about mandores. [2]http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/ There are lots of pieces for mandore in MS in Ulm. And there are some pieces in the Gallot guitar MS (on the site) Yet there are records among luthiers and violeros showing htey made many, many examples of this instrument. Who played it, and where? What music was played on it? Surely, hundreds and hundreds of people didn't commission these instruments so they could play pieces from two manuscripts. I can only believe that people worked out their old favorites in their spare time. That's exactly what John Skene seems to have been doing. And I further conjecture that they joined in the fun when friends got together to play. The playing of music was the only way you were going to hear it, after all. And indeed, I have been fortunate enough to be included in some arrangements as a mandore player, although no such part was written. Historically accurate? Who knows. Musically enjoyable? For me it was. Jean-Marie Poirier's group with a mandore player [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZR-3jFRNhc __ From: Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, August 27, 2010 7:00:18 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 Dear Martyn Yes - I agree with everything you say. I haven't listened to the whole concert yet - I got as far as the Foscarini piece and gave up. Maybe I will have time for the rest this weekend. I am quite often sent CDs to review of this early Italian repertoire and the unsuitabilty of the singers in general is a problem especially we are not encouraged to say what we think! I suppose the tin-pan alley approach is adopted to try and make the music appeal to a broader audience. In the end musicians have to earn a living. Just performing the songs with a single plucked string accompaniment, which may have been the norm, is just not going to attract many to the cause. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Stuart Walsh [2][8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com; Monica Hall [3][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4][10]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 8:06 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 Dear Monica, I very much agree about Kozena's singing: there's a fashion for well known sopranos to try their hand at small scale 'early music' but few seem to be able to make the transition succesfully (somewhat like similar rather wincing attempts at Broadway musicals). In addition to problems evident in her rendition of 'Si dolce tormento', what I found particularly disturbing was a frequent inability to get the pitch quite right - whether this was because she was trying to control her (pitch) vibrato or because she was unused to being accompanied by a relatively small band (with relatively soft instruments - bear in mind we're not hearing the performance but the performance tweaked by sound engineers so don't really know what the actual balance was). Perhaps she's happier with orchestral accompaniment - I understand her Handel and Gluck opera roles have gone down well in the past. I ought to say this doesn't just apply to Kozena: I recently heard Blow's Venus and Adonis
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3
I am also a fan of Private Musicke and have several of their CDs. Magdalena Kozuna is not one of their regular singers as far as I am aware. I suspect that she was co-opted for commercial considerations - in order to sell more tickets. She is well know whereas Raquel and Stephan van Dyck and Marco Beasley are not - at least over here. All them are very accomplished singers in this repertoire. So is Kozuna in the right repertoire - but the announcer did make the point that she is better know for doing other things. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]jean-michel Catherinot To: [2]Martyn Hodgson ; [3]Monica Hall Cc: [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 12:39 PM Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 I'm quite surpised by this, because that is not at all usually their stuff: and that's one of the reason why I like this band so much. Is that Magdalena Kozena's choice? They played this type of programm few weeks ago near my house with Raquel Andueza, and it was a quite wonderful concert, with both very elegant swing and dignity. Pierre Pitzl is really a preeminent baroque guitar performer on my opinion, who makes with his incredible sound easy to understand why the guitar seduced so much people during the 17th. --- En date de : Ven 27.8.10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk a ecrit : De: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Objet: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 A: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Vendredi 27 aout 2010, 11h00 Dear Martyn Yes - I agree with everything you say. I haven't listened to the whole concert yet - I got as far as the Foscarini piece and gave up. Maybe I will have time for the rest this weekend. I am quite often sent CDs to review of this early Italian repertoire and the unsuitabilty of the singers in general is a problem especially we are not encouraged to say what we think! I suppose the tin-pan alley approach is adopted to try and make the music appeal to a broader audience. In the end musicians have to earn a living. Just performing the songs with a single plucked string accompaniment, which may have been the norm, is just not going to attract many to the cause. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Stuart Walsh [6]s.wa...@ntlworld.com; Monica Hall [7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [8]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 8:06 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 Dear Monica, I very much agree about Kozena's singing: there's a fashion for well known sopranos to try their hand at small scale 'early music' but few seem to be able to make the transition succesfully (somewhat like similar rather wincing attempts at Broadway musicals). In addition to problems evident in her rendition of 'Si dolce tormento', what I found particularly disturbing was a frequent inability to get the pitch quite right - whether this was because she was trying to control her (pitch) vibrato or because she was unused to being accompanied by a relatively small band (with relatively soft instruments - bear in mind we're not hearing the performance but the performance tweaked by sound engineers so don't really know what the actual balance was). Perhaps she's happier with orchestral accompaniment - I understand her Handel and Gluck opera roles have gone down well in the past. I ought to say this doesn't just apply to Kozena: I recently heard Blow's Venus and Adonis with Venus sung by the operatic soprano Rosemary Joshua which had similar pitching problems - not just me, acquintances also remarked on it. Presumably producers judge that the fame of the name will ensure recording sales. M PS I also agree about the kitchen sink - but again I largely blame the producers and sound engineers who I suspect encourage bands in this manner of delivery, thinking it will be more 'exciting' and the novelty will thus generate more listening/sales. --- On Thu, 26/8/10, Monica Hall [9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 To: Stuart Walsh [11]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [12]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 26 August, 2010, 19:42 Thank you for that!I was listening to the concert on the Radio 3 website but I couldn't recognise it at all. It sounded a bit like Piccinini's Chiaccona Cappona alla vera Spagnola. Maybe it's just something they have made up
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3
Well - I think a lot of it has more to do with bums on seats as we say over here than musical taste. I thought the pecussion in the Foscarini overdone by any standards. In England classical music is very much a minority interest and I get the impression that producers think that every thing has to be dumbed down to try and sell it to the masses. I am quite put out that tonight's prom is devoted to the jazz singer Jamie Cullen. The Proms are supposed to be about classical music. There was also an evening of Stephen Sondheim. There are plenty of opportunities for people to hear these things anyway. The West End is awash with musicals. But perhaps I am just getting old and stuck in the mud. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 2:14 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 Interesting... To my unschooled ears, I didn't find anything objectionable in the Foscarini. I'll admit that I'm getting tired of the ciaconna rhythm and its ilk... It's getting very popular I think because it's so approachable. Sort of like los Tangos are popular in Flamenco because anybody can locate himself in that rhythm... unlike Bularias, for example which are far more complex. Likewise the ciaconna, where I can imagine hordes of listeners swaying along gently with the tiorbo player... Very easy listening. But as to kitchen sinks and all... Well, no doubt there was some sort of control over acceptable performances and arrangements of this music. So a kitchen sink virtuoso might find it difficult to get a gig playing for the local nobility. But I find it hard to accept that there were no impromptu sessions where players of any instrument handy (sink included) might join in to play along with some of the favorites, greatest hits, etc. I think there *is* an urge to popularize early music these days. Groups mount performances that they hope look and feel like these popular impromptu sessions they imagine. That is one way to popularize the music... recreate the music's popularity. (Have I used that word root sufficiently?) The only evidence I can personally site for impromptu playing is this... I play a mandore. As far as I know, there are two manuscripts for this instrument -- F. de Chancy, and Skene. Yet there are records among luthiers and violeros showing htey made many, many examples of this instrument. Who played it, and where? What music was played on it? Surely, hundreds and hundreds of people didn't commission these instruments so they could play pieces from two manuscripts. I can only believe that people worked out their old favorites in their spare time. And I further conjecture that they joined in the fun when friends got together to play. The playing of music was the only way you were going to hear it, after all. And indeed, I have been fortunate enough to be included in some arrangements as a mandore player, although no such part was written. Historically accurate? Who knows. Musically enjoyable? For me it was. I'm sure there are other reasons to believe people joined together, with what instruments they had, to play a tune as best as they could. And so I've noticed that larger ensemble performances are ever more in vogue. It doesn't bother me all that much. I can still play solo music, I can still find smaller arrangements to listen to. I just see a different angle on the music when I hear a larger ensemble. But I am no kind of historian. Maybe I'm an example of exactly why you don't like these sorts of arrangements. But there it is... cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, August 27, 2010 7:00:18 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 Dear Martyn Yes - I agree with everything you say. I haven't listened to the whole concert yet - I got as far as the Foscarini piece and gave up. Maybe I will have time for the rest this weekend. I am quite often sent CDs to review of this early Italian repertoire and the unsuitabilty of the singers in general is a problem especially we are not encouraged to say what we think! I suppose the tin-pan alley approach is adopted to try and make the music appeal to a broader audience. In the end musicians have to earn a living. Just performing the songs with a single plucked string accompaniment, which may have been the norm, is just not going to attract many to the cause. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com; Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3
Thank you for that!I was listening to the concert on the Radio 3 website but I couldn't recognise it at all. It sounded a bit like Piccinini's Chiaccona Cappona alla vera Spagnola. Maybe it's just something they have made up themselves and attributed to Foscarini. His book does include a different Chiaccona of Piccinini's. I dont really like these arrangements with everything but the kitchen sink in them. That's one of the few things I agree with Lex about. Baroque guitar music is meant to be played on the baroque guitar. I didn't particularly like Magdalena Kozuna's singing either - what I heard of it. I think she completely spoiled Monteverdi's Si dolce tormento. Maybe I will find time to listen to the rest of the concert before they wipe it off. Meanwhile - leave it on you website. If I listen to it a few more times I might trace it. Cheers Monica --- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:41 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Foscarini on Radio 3 The whole concert by Private Musicke (and brief description of it) can be heard here. The songs and pieces were played uninterrupted in each half. This, presumably, is the Foscarini: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Ff.mp3 Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
