[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
--- En date de : Mar 31.8.10, Martyn Hodgson
a ecrit :
De: Martyn Hodgson
Objet: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
performed by Lex Eisenhardt
A: "Vihuelalist" , "Lute List"
, "Martin Shepherd" ,
"jean-michel Catherinot"
Date: Mardi 31 aout 2010, 14h51
Dear Jean-michel,
Put a colon after 'octaves' as '...strung in octaves: outside
Italy' - I think you'll see what I meant I didn't
think
the meaning wasn't obvious but I'm sorry if you were momentarily
misled. As you'll see I do, of course, allow the earlier Italian
lute
in octave tuning.
But, interestingly and to extend this thread a little, for the later
16th century Italian repertoire do we really know how the lute was
expected to be strung? I'm not sure that octaves on 4th and 5th as
well as the 6th (and lower) courses were still general by, say the
1570s. Do you? Certainly the 17th century lute doesn't generally
seem
to have had octaves on the 4th and 5th
Which sources or which evidences say that? In my opinion, Laurencini,
reported by Besard, would have had at least octaves on 6 and 5. That's
a very good question to make clear: I tried some time ago Molinaro with
octave stringing, and was not very much convinced, but who knows?
Gabrieli says he is against octave stringing...so octave stringing
exists. In fact, I've the feeling that stringing depends on string
length, but with no historical proof. The most problematic is indeed
period between 1570 and 1620.
(people like Piccinnini, Melli
and Santino Garsi), so when did the change take place? [Martin,
have
you done anything on this?]
MH
--- On Tue, 31/8/10, jean-michel Catherinot
<[1]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: jean-michel Catherinot <[2]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
performed by Lex Eisenhardt
To: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lute List"
<[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Martin Shepherd"
<[5]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>,
"Martyn Hodgson" <[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 15:03
Except le Roy 's information about neapolitan school (with no
octaves), I'm not aware of an italian general habit of stringing
without octaves on the lute!
And most of lutenists today play high Renaissance lute music
with
plain octave stringing (6 to 4) as far as I know. On the vihuela,
no
octave stringing began with Emilio Pujol, based only on an
ambiguous
tuning chart in Pisador. So...
--- En date de : Mar 31.8.10, Martyn Hodgson
<[1][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> a ecrit :
De: Martyn Hodgson <[2][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Objet: [VIHUELA] Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
performed by Lex Eisenhardt
A: "Vihuelalist" <[3][9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lute List"
<[4][10]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Martin Shepherd"
<[5][11]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Date: Mardi 31 aout 2010, 12h34
And, of course, in the heyday of the 5 course guitar, the lute
was
always strung in octaves outside Italy the 'baroque' lute
(generally
in Dm tuning); in Italy in the old tuning but still octaves
on
the
basses. But, interestingly and with relevance, we know that
some
of
the
French 'Old Ones' removed the lower string from the lowest
octave
pair
as being too intrusive (Burwell, c1670 'That eleventh string
being
alone .. The Lute-masters have taken away that great
string
because
the sound of it is too big.). In short they sacrificied
the
lower
rather than the upper octave of the pair - once again evidence
that
we
need to be very careful about assuming that a 'complete' and,
to
some
modern thinking, a more logical specification was always what
they
aimed for.
As said before, much of the reason for introducing the added
basses
was
not simply (or just) to 'improve' the bass register but was
also
to
free the left hand for work higher up the fingerboard.
Mace(1676)
certainly makes a great deal of this in his essay on 'The LUTE
made
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Dear Jean-michel,
Put a colon after 'octaves' as '...strung in octaves: outside
Italy' - I think you'll see what I meant I didn't think
the meaning wasn't obvious but I'm sorry if you were momentarily
misled. As you'll see I do, of course, allow the earlier Italian lute
in octave tuning.
But, interestingly and to extend this thread a little, for the later
16th century Italian repertoire do we really know how the lute was
expected to be strung? I'm not sure that octaves on 4th and 5th as
well as the 6th (and lower) courses were still general by, say the
1570s. Do you? Certainly the 17th century lute doesn't generally seem
to have had octaves on the 4th and 5th (people like Piccinnini, Melli
and Santino Garsi), so when did the change take place? [Martin, have
you done anything on this?]
MH
--- On Tue, 31/8/10, jean-michel Catherinot
wrote:
From: jean-michel Catherinot
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
performed by Lex Eisenhardt
To: "Vihuelalist" , "Lute List"
, "Martin Shepherd" ,
"Martyn Hodgson"
Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 15:03
Except le Roy 's information about neapolitan school (with no
octaves), I'm not aware of an italian general habit of stringing
without octaves on the lute!
And most of lutenists today play high Renaissance lute music with
plain octave stringing (6 to 4) as far as I know. On the vihuela, no
octave stringing began with Emilio Pujol, based only on an ambiguous
tuning chart in Pisador. So...
--- En date de : Mar 31.8.10, Martyn Hodgson
<[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> a ecrit :
De: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Objet: [VIHUELA] Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
performed by Lex Eisenhardt
A: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lute List"
<[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Martin Shepherd"
<[5]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Date: Mardi 31 aout 2010, 12h34
And, of course, in the heyday of the 5 course guitar, the lute
was
always strung in octaves outside Italy the 'baroque' lute
(generally
in Dm tuning); in Italy in the old tuning but still octaves on
the
basses. But, interestingly and with relevance, we know that some
of
the
French 'Old Ones' removed the lower string from the lowest octave
pair
as being too intrusive (Burwell, c1670 'That eleventh string
being
alone .. The Lute-masters have taken away that great string
because
the sound of it is too big.). In short they sacrificied the
lower
rather than the upper octave of the pair - once again evidence
that
we
need to be very careful about assuming that a 'complete' and, to
some
modern thinking, a more logical specification was always what
they
aimed for.
As said before, much of the reason for introducing the added
basses
was
not simply (or just) to 'improve' the bass register but was also
to
free the left hand for work higher up the fingerboard.
Mace(1676)
certainly makes a great deal of this in his essay on 'The LUTE
made
Easie' as making playing 'become Easie' (no need for such
difficult
left hand fingerings) and, of course, the technique became very
widely
used later and indeed was common practice by Weiss and other 18th
century lutenists.
MH
--- On Tue, 31/8/10, Martin Shepherd
<[1][6]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
wrote:
From: Martin Shepherd <[2][7]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex
Eisenhardt
To: "Vihuelalist" <[3][8]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lute List"
<[4][9]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 9:46
Hi All,
Just to give a lutenist's perspective (and copying to the lute
list
as
it might be of interest there):
For much of the 16th century lutes were routinely strung with
octaves
on courses 4-6. Almost equally routinely, the upper octaves are
ignored as far as the counterpoint is concerned - lutenists
making
intabulations (with a few notable exceptions) just intabulated
the
voice parts literally. The degree to which the upper octave can
be
heard depends on many things, but perhaps most of all the skill
of
the
player - mostly, you want the
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Except le Roy 's information about neapolitan school (with no octaves), I'm not aware of an italian general habit of stringing without octaves on the lute! And most of lutenists today play high Renaissance lute music with plain octave stringing (6 to 4) as far as I know. On the vihuela, no octave stringing began with Emilio Pujol, based only on an ambiguous tuning chart in Pisador. So... --- En date de : Mar 31.8.10, Martyn Hodgson a ecrit : De: Martyn Hodgson Objet: [VIHUELA] Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt A: "Vihuelalist" , "Lute List" , "Martin Shepherd" Date: Mardi 31 aout 2010, 12h34 And, of course, in the heyday of the 5 course guitar, the lute was always strung in octaves outside Italy the 'baroque' lute (generally in Dm tuning); in Italy in the old tuning but still octaves on the basses. But, interestingly and with relevance, we know that some of the French 'Old Ones' removed the lower string from the lowest octave pair as being too intrusive (Burwell, c1670 'That eleventh string being alone .. The Lute-masters have taken away that great string because the sound of it is too big.). In short they sacrificied the lower rather than the upper octave of the pair - once again evidence that we need to be very careful about assuming that a 'complete' and, to some modern thinking, a more logical specification was always what they aimed for. As said before, much of the reason for introducing the added basses was not simply (or just) to 'improve' the bass register but was also to free the left hand for work higher up the fingerboard. Mace(1676) certainly makes a great deal of this in his essay on 'The LUTE made Easie' as making playing 'become Easie' (no need for such difficult left hand fingerings) and, of course, the technique became very widely used later and indeed was common practice by Weiss and other 18th century lutenists. MH --- On Tue, 31/8/10, Martin Shepherd <[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote: From: Martin Shepherd <[2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt To: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lute List" <[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 9:46 Hi All, Just to give a lutenist's perspective (and copying to the lute list as it might be of interest there): For much of the 16th century lutes were routinely strung with octaves on courses 4-6. Almost equally routinely, the upper octaves are ignored as far as the counterpoint is concerned - lutenists making intabulations (with a few notable exceptions) just intabulated the voice parts literally. The degree to which the upper octave can be heard depends on many things, but perhaps most of all the skill of the player - mostly, you want the octave to be audible but not too strong as it is really there to "colour" the sound, adding some upper partials to the sound of the gut basses. The re-entrant tuning of the guitar is another kettle of fish Just as an aside, Dowland's remarks on octaves in Varietie of Lute Lessons (1610) have been widely misunderstood, even though what he writes is perfectly clear. He says that octaves were used more in England than elsewhere, so there is some justification (and quite a bit of evidence from the music itself) for using octaves even up to the 4th course in the music of Cutting, John Johnson, Holborne, and anyone else active in the 1580s and 90s (except possibly Ferrabosco, since he probably brought his Italian habits with him!). Oh and of course Barley's book of 1597 specifies octaves on courses 4-6, and although he borrowed much of his material from Le Roy (1568) he obviously thought it was still common practice. Best wishes, Martin Monica Hall wrote: > Yes - that is certainly the case. However with baroque guitar music the octaves are intermittent rather than continuous. The other point is that because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to hear the upper notes rather than the lower ones and because the instrument has a small compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap with the notes on the upper courses. You get the same effect with octave stringing on the third course. It is not that one voice in the counterpoint is being duplicated. This is rather different from playing passages in octaves on the piano or harpsichord - where there wont be the same overlapping. On the organ it is possible to play different
