[VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo - unusual dissonance
Rather belatedly I feel I should warn the unwary not to take anything Craig
Russell says very seriously.
At the top of p. 155 of his article in The Cambridge Companion to the Guitar
he has set out a sequence of bizarre chords from Millioni and Monte's book
of 1678. Just one slight problem here - he has overlooked the fact that
the guitar is to be tuned differently i.e. A-c#-f#-c-e' . Once you do that
the chords work out as you would expect.
Just one of many howlers in the piece. And Cambridge University Press is
supposed to be a leading academic publisher!
A very merry Christmas or whatever to you all.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Martyn Hodgson
hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:17 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
I personally don't want to argue this point. First because I'm not
qualified, and secondly because it's not really what I was saying.
Monica, you're absolutely right that by definition it's not continuous
bass when playing derived harmonies in the alfabeto. I was only
supposing that the harmonies are derived from the bass, and informed by
practice of bajo continuo. In that sense, it's a realization of
something, at any rate. And following on what I've read by Craig
Russell, it's possible to imagine that the guitar, limits, quirks, and
all, contributed to the development of harmonic thinking in this way.
__
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:32 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
That is all perfectly clear - but has absolutely nothing to do with
playing
an alfabeto accompaniment - because the guitar is not going to try and
reproduce the bass part in any way.
You seem to be me to be confusing two unrelated sets of circumstances.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt [2]eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Lex,
A particular commonly occurring situation requiring the bass line to
be
realised on the theorbo higher than the upper melodic line is where
the
tenor sings a notated e' (ie that on the lowest line of treble clef)
but sounding an octave lower (ie the e in the bass clef) and the BC
line has a low G# 6 (ie on bottom line of bass clef). If G natural
is
also frequently required in the piece (as often found) then on
a theorbo in A (with 6 fingered courses as most usual historically)
there is no low G# and the player is obliged to take the bass an
octave
higher - ie top space of the bass clef and thus higher than the
singer's note. The situation is much the same where the tenor has a
d
and the theorbo BC is obliged to take a f# in the bass.
Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per
pieta'
where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere in
the
piece.
Chromatic notes are solved in the same way: by putting odd notes (or
even an entire passage) up an octave - see Ballard 'Methode pour
apprendre theorbe' (1660) page 10 especially which gives
examples
in staff notation and in tablature showing the necessary octave
transposition for chromatic notes.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Sat, 17/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt [4]eisenha...@planet.nl
wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt [5]eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was:
Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Martyn Hodgson
[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Saturday, 17 December, 2011, 8:58
Dear Martyn,
Is there evidence for raising the bass on the theorbo, to even above
the
other voices? I understand that chromatic notes in the bass can be a
problem, but do we know how they solved that?
Lex
ps could you please stop sending the whole thread of the discussion
together
with your newest posts?
- Original Message -
From
[VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Monica,
A similar thing occurs with the cittern parts of Richard Allison's
_Psalmes of David in Meter_ (London, 1599). They would have been derived
from the bass line, but it would have been an unfigured bass, so
major/minor and 6/3-5/3 discrepancies would have been inevitable.
Best wishes,
Stewart McCoy.
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Monica Hall
Sent: 18 December 2011 12:37
To: Chris Despopoulos
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Monica, you're absolutely right that by definition it's not
continuous
bass when playing derived harmonies in the alfabeto. I was only
supposing that the harmonies are derived from the bass, and informed
by
practice of bajo continuo. In that sense, it's a realization of
something, at any rate.
In theory the harmonies - at least in the printed books - are derived
from
the bass line but they are not informed by the practice of bajo
continuo.
In many cases whoever added the alfabeto has simply added these on the
assumption that the note in the bass part is the root of the chord
without
taking into account the voice part which clearly indicates that a 6/3
chord
is necessary rather than a 5/3. In some instances they add major chords
when there should be minor ones. And they also ignore the basic rule -
that
when the bass rises a semitone - mi-fa - the note on mi should be a
6/3.
Usually 4-3 suspensions are ignored.
And following on what I've read by Craig
Russell, it's possible to imagine that the guitar, limits, quirks,
and
all, contributed to the development of harmonic thinking in this
way.
I think it contributed in a different way. Guitarists themselves -
rather
than the editors who added the alfabeto to printed books - were aware
that
chords were derived from major and minor triads and the notes in the
triad
could be played in any order. They were also more aware of major and
minor
modality.
Regards
Monica
__
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:32 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
That is all perfectly clear - but has absolutely nothing to do with
playing
an alfabeto accompaniment - because the guitar is not going to try
and
reproduce the bass part in any way.
You seem to be me to be confusing two unrelated sets of
circumstances.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt [2]eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Lex,
A particular commonly occurring situation requiring the bass line
to
be
realised on the theorbo higher than the upper melodic line is
where
the
tenor sings a notated e' (ie that on the lowest line of treble
clef)
but sounding an octave lower (ie the e in the bass clef) and the
BC
line has a low G# 6 (ie on bottom line of bass clef). If G
natural
is
also frequently required in the piece (as often found) then on
a theorbo in A (with 6 fingered courses as most usual
historically)
there is no low G# and the player is obliged to take the bass an
octave
higher - ie top space of the bass clef and thus higher than the
singer's note. The situation is much the same where the tenor has
a
d
and the theorbo BC is obliged to take a f# in the bass.
Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per
pieta'
where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere
in
the
piece.
Chromatic notes are solved in the same way: by putting odd notes
(or
even an entire passage) up an octave - see Ballard 'Methode pour
apprendre theorbe' (1660) page 10 especially which gives
examples
in staff notation and in tablature showing the necessary octave
transposition for chromatic notes.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Sat, 17/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt [4]eisenha...@planet.nl
wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt [5]eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was:
Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Martyn Hodgson
[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
[VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Lex,
Much as I deprecate the high lervels of banging and thrashing about
produced by some guitar continuo players these days, I see no reason to
suppose that strumming should be generally eschewed ('It seems unlikely
however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of the
instrument, was intended'). For example, song accompaniments with
Alfabeto are surely nothing more than basso continuo realisations on
the guitar (as for example in the Corradi 1616) I mentioned.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Wed, 14/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 8:51
Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the chitarra
spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600.
But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really about figured
bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of the
'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style of the
guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have considered
the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the bass is not
even performed on the guitar.
I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a way.
Amongst the second group of instruments he has included the Lirone,
Cetera and the Pandora. These are all instruments which are capable
of filling in the harmony to some extent. There is no reason to
suppose that they played nothing but a single lin - what would the
point be - and the same is true of the chitarrina. It could be
strumming away in there!
Agazzari (in Strunk) says: 'Like ornaments are those which, in a
playful and _contrapuntal_ fashion, make the harmony more agreeable and
sonorous.'
The instruments with 'imperfect harmony [of the parts] such as the
cetera, lirone, chitarrina, etc.' could indeed have played more than
one voice at a time, although single line should also be considered
possible. But I assume that Agazzari would have expected that also this
was done 'in a contrapuntal fashion.' And yes, on the cetera and
chitarrina that could possibly mean strumming. It seems unlikely
however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of the
instrument, was intended
Lex
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