RE: las sirenas
At 09:26 PM 5/15/2005, bill kilpatrick wrote: - twin mermaid sculptures holding vihuelas on the portico of the church of san lorenzo (1547 - 1744) in potosi - las sirenas petreas vihuelistas o charanguistas de la portada de la iglesia de San Lorenzo de Potosí. The latter article gives this portion of the carving to 1728-1744, comfortably beyond the designated literature for vihuela and proliferation of guitars. It also uses guitarrillas as an alternate term for charango. if charango iconography pre-dates the documented use of the word charango then what do you suppose these instruments were called? I have no idea, but I will remain skeptical without documentation. Since no 16th-c. charangos and few-to-no vihuelas (certainly none of such diminutive stature) have survived, I don't need to concern myself with naming such things, and charango will do for the modern instruments I encounter this amounts to nothing however, if you believe the spanish colonists to the new world didn't know the proper name for their instruments and you do. in which case, no amount of documentation will alter your opinion. I hope you know that I would never be so presumptuous, Bill. What I did say was that the names of instruments are highly plastic and not necessarily reflective of organology. Names of instruments are established through repetition and precedent, and in all such cases--including mandolin, charango, viola da terra, etc.--are what they are with legitimacy. Latin-American strummers of folk music are perfectly legit in naming their vihuela vihuela, but the name does not necessarily imply direct lineage. Vihuela is a Spanish derivative of viola. Nobody here is at risk of confusing the alto strings of the modern orchestra (i.e., the violas) with the 16th-c. vihuela da mano. There is still a folk guitar in use in Portugal known as viola da terra. For all the world, it looks like a ca. 1750 5-course guitar was plucked from its home and deposited in the modern day. In spite of the similar name, it is not a 16th-c. vihuela da mano. You know I am a great fan of mandolins, Bill. Most of the things in my stable that I call mandolin would be utterly unrecognizable as such to Stradivari, Vivaldi, or Scarlatti. My instruments are still mandolins and not of the same conceptual entity of the mandolini Stradivari built. At 01:09 AM 5/16/2005, bill kilpatrick wrote: at this point however, i'd be pleased if someone on the list would acknowledge the link between the charango and any one of its possible progenitors. Of course. I've done so with some frequency. The venerable Galpin, famed organologist, certainly didn't get everything exactly right, but he claimed all chordophones owe their conceptual ancestry to the musical bow, and I'd wager he's right. Of course, charango is derived from the plucked chordophones that came before, whether guitars or vihuela da mano. However, none of these things are musical bows. once that gets established it's relatively easy, i think, to quash the notion of it being somehow different than its earlier relation simply by asking what modifications were made to warrant the name change. after all, a pedal steel guitar looks nothing like the original but it's still called a guitar. This assumes that one arrives at modern charango by making direct modifications to its ancestral forms, that there is a biological-like evolution occurring. This just doesn't happen with musical instruments. Once again, working luthiers are going to be influenced by the instruments around them and can concoct chimeras at whim. Who knows what prompted a succession of luthiers to begin calling their wee, waisted chordophones charango, but when the precedent was established, charango became its own conceptual entity. Whatever one calls a thing, a thing is not its ancestor. I like guitars, and the evolution of the instruments to carry that name is pretty well documented as far as such things go. However, my modern 6-string guitar is not particularly like anything Mudarra would have recognized as a guitar. If anything, a surprise introduction of Mudarra to my modern guitar might have been confused him into speculating it to be an odd, heavy, single-strung vihuela. Still, I'm not about to claim my guitar IS a 16th-c. vihuela da mano. as for historically informed performance, i believe i would be more accurate in that regard if i call my instrument a vihuela - that's what they would have called it. You might have a case, Bill, if your charango had been built in 1548 and you had found it accompanied by a bill of sale that said vihuela, wooden bowl: qty. 1 or similar. However, whatever charangos you own were not around in the 16th c., so I have no idea what they would have called them. Whatever its ancestors, the modern charango is not a 16th-c. vihuela. Your luthier built to the concept of charango that had been established by generations of
RE: las sirenas
you're an e-gent, eugene - i couldn't take offense at anything you say. as ever, thoughtful, interesting ideas and - as ever - the cause of much consternation and gnashing of teeth (mine). i suspect the only leap of imagination you'll entertain in this or any matter is the 14 pounder that flashes over your desk from time to time, at the end of your line. regards - bill --- Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 09:26 PM 5/15/2005, bill kilpatrick wrote: - twin mermaid sculptures holding vihuelas on the portico of the church of san lorenzo (1547 - 1744) in potosi - las sirenas petreas vihuelistas o charanguistas de la portada de la iglesia de San Lorenzo de Potosí. The latter article gives this portion of the carving to 1728-1744, comfortably beyond the designated literature for vihuela and proliferation of guitars. It also uses guitarrillas as an alternate term for charango. if charango iconography pre-dates the documented use of the word charango then what do you suppose these instruments were called? I have no idea, but I will remain skeptical without documentation. Since no 16th-c. charangos and few-to-no vihuelas (certainly none of such diminutive stature) have survived, I don't need to concern myself with naming such things, and charango will do for the modern instruments I encounter this amounts to nothing however, if you believe the spanish colonists to the new world didn't know the proper name for their instruments and you do. in which case, no amount of documentation will alter your opinion. I hope you know that I would never be so presumptuous, Bill. What I did say was that the names of instruments are highly plastic and not necessarily reflective of organology. Names of instruments are established through repetition and precedent, and in all such cases--including mandolin, charango, viola da terra, etc.--are what they are with legitimacy. Latin-American strummers of folk music are perfectly legit in naming their vihuela vihuela, but the name does not necessarily imply direct lineage. Vihuela is a Spanish derivative of viola. Nobody here is at risk of confusing the alto strings of the modern orchestra (i.e., the violas) with the 16th-c. vihuela da mano. There is still a folk guitar in use in Portugal known as viola da terra. For all the world, it looks like a ca. 1750 5-course guitar was plucked from its home and deposited in the modern day. In spite of the similar name, it is not a 16th-c. vihuela da mano. You know I am a great fan of mandolins, Bill. Most of the things in my stable that I call mandolin would be utterly unrecognizable as such to Stradivari, Vivaldi, or Scarlatti. My instruments are still mandolins and not of the same conceptual entity of the mandolini Stradivari built. At 01:09 AM 5/16/2005, bill kilpatrick wrote: at this point however, i'd be pleased if someone on the list would acknowledge the link between the charango and any one of its possible progenitors. Of course. I've done so with some frequency. The venerable Galpin, famed organologist, certainly didn't get everything exactly right, but he claimed all chordophones owe their conceptual ancestry to the musical bow, and I'd wager he's right. Of course, charango is derived from the plucked chordophones that came before, whether guitars or vihuela da mano. However, none of these things are musical bows. once that gets established it's relatively easy, i think, to quash the notion of it being somehow different than its earlier relation simply by asking what modifications were made to warrant the name change. after all, a pedal steel guitar looks nothing like the original but it's still called a guitar. This assumes that one arrives at modern charango by making direct modifications to its ancestral forms, that there is a biological-like evolution occurring. This just doesn't happen with musical instruments. Once again, working luthiers are going to be influenced by the instruments around them and can concoct chimeras at whim. Who knows what prompted a succession of luthiers to begin calling their wee, waisted chordophones charango, but when the precedent was established, charango became its own conceptual entity. Whatever one calls a thing, a thing is not its ancestor. I like guitars, and the evolution of the instruments to carry that name is pretty well documented as far as such things go. However, my modern 6-string guitar is not particularly like anything Mudarra would have recognized as a guitar. If anything, a surprise introduction of Mudarra to my modern guitar might have been confused him into speculating it to be an odd, heavy, single-strung vihuela. Still, I'm not about to claim my guitar IS a 16th-c. vihuela da mano. as for historically informed performance, i believe i
RE: las sirenas (ll)
just gave your reply a good reading and in the time honored tradition of the nonplused i'll have to say we agree to disagree. you see the charango from a modern academic prospective with more knowledge than i'll ever have. i see it from an earlier prospective with what i imagine would be the reaction of an itinerant musician from the renaissance or baroque. in any case, as everyone has pointed out, there's no historic repertoire for a 5c. instrument in the present charango tuning and the list seems to be geared toward what the magnificent seven wrote and the few examples which remain of the instrument they played on. it's a shame though. as beautiful as the music is, the charango deserves more than just melodies from the andes. regards - bill --- Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 09:26 PM 5/15/2005, bill kilpatrick wrote: - twin mermaid sculptures holding vihuelas on the portico of the church of san lorenzo (1547 - 1744) in potosi - las sirenas petreas vihuelistas o charanguistas de la portada de la iglesia de San Lorenzo de Potosí. The latter article gives this portion of the carving to 1728-1744, comfortably beyond the designated literature for vihuela and proliferation of guitars. It also uses guitarrillas as an alternate term for charango. if charango iconography pre-dates the documented use of the word charango then what do you suppose these instruments were called? I have no idea, but I will remain skeptical without documentation. Since no 16th-c. charangos and few-to-no vihuelas (certainly none of such diminutive stature) have survived, I don't need to concern myself with naming such things, and charango will do for the modern instruments I encounter this amounts to nothing however, if you believe the spanish colonists to the new world didn't know the proper name for their instruments and you do. in which case, no amount of documentation will alter your opinion. I hope you know that I would never be so presumptuous, Bill. What I did say was that the names of instruments are highly plastic and not necessarily reflective of organology. Names of instruments are established through repetition and precedent, and in all such cases--including mandolin, charango, viola da terra, etc.--are what they are with legitimacy. Latin-American strummers of folk music are perfectly legit in naming their vihuela vihuela, but the name does not necessarily imply direct lineage. Vihuela is a Spanish derivative of viola. Nobody here is at risk of confusing the alto strings of the modern orchestra (i.e., the violas) with the 16th-c. vihuela da mano. There is still a folk guitar in use in Portugal known as viola da terra. For all the world, it looks like a ca. 1750 5-course guitar was plucked from its home and deposited in the modern day. In spite of the similar name, it is not a 16th-c. vihuela da mano. You know I am a great fan of mandolins, Bill. Most of the things in my stable that I call mandolin would be utterly unrecognizable as such to Stradivari, Vivaldi, or Scarlatti. My instruments are still mandolins and not of the same conceptual entity of the mandolini Stradivari built. At 01:09 AM 5/16/2005, bill kilpatrick wrote: at this point however, i'd be pleased if someone on the list would acknowledge the link between the charango and any one of its possible progenitors. Of course. I've done so with some frequency. The venerable Galpin, famed organologist, certainly didn't get everything exactly right, but he claimed all chordophones owe their conceptual ancestry to the musical bow, and I'd wager he's right. Of course, charango is derived from the plucked chordophones that came before, whether guitars or vihuela da mano. However, none of these things are musical bows. once that gets established it's relatively easy, i think, to quash the notion of it being somehow different than its earlier relation simply by asking what modifications were made to warrant the name change. after all, a pedal steel guitar looks nothing like the original but it's still called a guitar. This assumes that one arrives at modern charango by making direct modifications to its ancestral forms, that there is a biological-like evolution occurring. This just doesn't happen with musical instruments. Once again, working luthiers are going to be influenced by the instruments around them and can concoct chimeras at whim. Who knows what prompted a succession of luthiers to begin calling their wee, waisted chordophones charango, but when the precedent was established, charango became its own conceptual entity. Whatever one calls a thing, a thing is not its ancestor. I like guitars, and the evolution of the instruments to carry that name is pretty well documented as far as such things go. However, my modern 6-string
RE: las sirenas (ll)
At 01:29 PM 5/16/2005, bill kilpatrick wrote: it's a shame though. as beautiful as the music is, the charango deserves more than just melodies from the andes. I can't argue that, and I'm overjoyed that you've opted to approach atypical repertoire on your charango. I still say play whatever rep you can handle on it and enjoy. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: las sirenas
Sebastián Núñez also favors the baroque guitar as the more probable dad. at this point however, i'd be pleased if someone on the list would acknowledge the link between the charango and any one of its possible progenitors. once that gets established it's relatively easy, i think, to quash the notion of it being somehow different than its earlier relation simply by asking what modifications were made to warrant the name change. after all, a pedal steel guitar looks nothing like the original but it's still called a guitar. it seems to me that one of the major pit falls of reenactment in musical terms is the totally artificial classification that gets cast back over past events from our modern perspective. what was being played in the country during the baroque period was probably not much different than what had been played during medieval times. these critters with their ukuleles as you say represent a continuous process in music, not a fixed period. as for historically informed performance, i believe i would be more accurate in that regard if i call my instrument a vihuela - that's what they would have called it. don't you ever sleep or are you an early riser as well? kind regards - bill --- Garry Bryan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very interesting, but... While the Charango may have been a descendant of the vihuela de mano( or the guitar, or the viola de mano, or the medieval lute ), the modern Charango has 4 or 5 courses. The vihuela de mano repertoire (Narvaez, Mudarra, Milan, et al ) seems to be written for 6 course instruments. If you want to accept the suggestion that there is no true example of a vihuela de mano in existence, fine, but the instrument that the music was written for would still have 6 courses. Not 5 or 4. At any rate, a couple of stone critters holding ukuleles is not terribly compelling since The Potosi façade was begun in 1547 and completed in 1744. At what time were these mermaids carved? Were they Renaissance or Baroque? Depending on the answer to that, maybe we can now say that the Baroque guitar is a descendant of the Charango? :) Here's a link to a photo of the façade: http://www.rolandogoldman.com.ar/html/history-righ.htm , for those who are curious. -Original Message- From: bill kilpatrick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:27 PM To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: las sirenas here's something to support the idea that a charango is a vihuela: - twin mermaid sculptures holding vihuelas on the portico of the church of san lorenzo (1547 - 1744) in potosi - las sirenas petreas vihuelistas o charanguistas de la portada de la iglesia de San Lorenzo de Potosí. - taken from an article on the following site: www.charcas.com/sirenas.html - another, more detailed history of these sculptures can be found here: http://home.enter.vg/maiorg/Charanguito-18/Index.html - the earliest documentation of the word charango that i've found is mid-19th cent. if charango iconography pre-dates the documented use of the word charango then what do you suppose these instruments were called? this amounts to nothing however, if you believe the spanish colonists to the new world didn't know the proper name for their instruments and you do. in which case, no amount of documentation will alter your opinion. sincerely - bill and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly... - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), Historias de la Conquista del Mayab by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ___ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
