Re: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users.
I use NVDA most of the time, and not having these so called jaws issues. I recommend a mac for certain things mainly music production. Everyday stuff that I need not so much. It's a good tool in the tool box but as a voice over user I don't want to make it my only computer. On 10/17/23, Devin Prater wrote: > It’s nice, but if you’re using Google Docs, or Salesforce at work, you may > want to go to an Apple Store and check it out for yourself. > Devin Prater > r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com > > Https://devinprater.micro.blog > >> On Oct 16, 2023, at 9:20 PM, Dennis Long wrote: >> >> I have given some thought to getting a mac when I can afford it. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of >> Kliph >> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2023 1:24 PM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: Re: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a >> Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users. >> >> I second that, I have to use windows for work, and you wouldn’t believe >> how many trouble tickets I have to submit a week for jaws issues. >> >> >>> On Oct 15, 2023, at 9:39 PM, Ed Worrell wrote: >>> >>> This article is very, very, very late to the game. I have not had this >>> issue with Safari freezing on my Mac computers in a very long time. >>> Probably in over 3 years. I really don’t understand the hatred from the >>> post on AppleVis. The AppleVis site has become very negative in the last >>> few years. I’m not saying Apple is perfect by any means, but this goes a >>> bit far. I have had more issues with my Windows 11 machine with JAWS >>> installed, over the last year. >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> >>>> On Oct 8, 2023, at 8:43 PM, Mike Arrigo wrote: >>>> >>>> Chrome and Firefox both work really well. >>>> >>>>> On Oct 8, 2023, at 7:40 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Group, >>>>> >>>>> Since this editorial involves primarily Safari browser and since there >>>>> are other browsers such as Firefox that can be used on the Mac, has >>>>> anyone tried Firefox on a Mac or perhaps any other browser? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 10/8/2023 7:35 PM, Sieghard Weitzel wrote: >>>>>> I love my iPhone and even my Apple TV, but while I tried Voiceover on >>>>>> a MAC a little, it is not a system I would want to deal with on a >>>>>> day-to-day bases. >>>>>> Maybe that is because I have been using Jaws at first with DOS in 1989 >>>>>> and since the mid 90’s with Windows, but I can’t even imagine what >>>>>> such a bug would do to me now when my retail business runs on a >>>>>> web-based point of fsale and accounting platform and I virtually use >>>>>> Chrome (or sometimes Edge) along with Excel and Outlook literally all >>>>>> day long. >>>>>> Of course I don’t claim that Windows 11 with the latest version of a >>>>>> Chromium-based web browser or Firefox and Jaws 2023 and for a while >>>>>> now Jaws 2024 in Beta is perfect, but it’s very rare that Windows, >>>>>> Chrome or Jaws crashes when I use our point of sale, Lightspeed Retail >>>>>> and I often go the entire week without having to reboot my computer. >>>>>> On Saturday evenings we usually turn all the computers at my store off >>>>>> since we are closed Sundays, but once they get turned on Monday >>>>>> morning they stay on until Saturday evening. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> Sieghard >>>>>> >>>>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of >>>>>> janet gross >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2023 4:27 PM >>>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>>> Subject: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a >>>>>> Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello Everyone, >>>>>> Here is an interesting article I just thought some of you might like >>>>>> to read. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.applevis.com/blog/we-deserve-better-apple-why-i-can-no-longer-recommend-mac-fellow-blind-computer-users >>>>>> We Deserve Better from Apple: Why I Can No Longer Recommend a
Re: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users.
It’s nice, but if you’re using Google Docs, or Salesforce at work, you may want to go to an Apple Store and check it out for yourself. Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com Https://devinprater.micro.blog > On Oct 16, 2023, at 9:20 PM, Dennis Long wrote: > > I have given some thought to getting a mac when I can afford it. > > -Original Message- > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of Kliph > Sent: Monday, October 16, 2023 1:24 PM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac > to Fellow Blind Computer Users. > > I second that, I have to use windows for work, and you wouldn’t believe how > many trouble tickets I have to submit a week for jaws issues. > > >> On Oct 15, 2023, at 9:39 PM, Ed Worrell wrote: >> >> This article is very, very, very late to the game. I have not had this issue >> with Safari freezing on my Mac computers in a very long time. Probably in >> over 3 years. I really don’t understand the hatred from the post on >> AppleVis. The AppleVis site has become very negative in the last few years. >> I’m not saying Apple is perfect by any means, but this goes a bit far. I >> have had more issues with my Windows 11 machine with JAWS installed, over >> the last year. >> >> Ed >> >> >>> On Oct 8, 2023, at 8:43 PM, Mike Arrigo wrote: >>> >>> Chrome and Firefox both work really well. >>> >>>> On Oct 8, 2023, at 7:40 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Group, >>>> >>>> Since this editorial involves primarily Safari browser and since there are >>>> other browsers such as Firefox that can be used on the Mac, has anyone >>>> tried Firefox on a Mac or perhaps any other browser? >>>> >>>> >>>> On 10/8/2023 7:35 PM, Sieghard Weitzel wrote: >>>>> I love my iPhone and even my Apple TV, but while I tried Voiceover on a >>>>> MAC a little, it is not a system I would want to deal with on a >>>>> day-to-day bases. >>>>> Maybe that is because I have been using Jaws at first with DOS in 1989 >>>>> and since the mid 90’s with Windows, but I can’t even imagine what such a >>>>> bug would do to me now when my retail business runs on a web-based point >>>>> of fsale and accounting platform and I virtually use Chrome (or sometimes >>>>> Edge) along with Excel and Outlook literally all day long. >>>>> Of course I don’t claim that Windows 11 with the latest version of a >>>>> Chromium-based web browser or Firefox and Jaws 2023 and for a while now >>>>> Jaws 2024 in Beta is perfect, but it’s very rare that Windows, Chrome or >>>>> Jaws crashes when I use our point of sale, Lightspeed Retail and I often >>>>> go the entire week without having to reboot my computer. On Saturday >>>>> evenings we usually turn all the computers at my store off since we are >>>>> closed Sundays, but once they get turned on Monday morning they stay on >>>>> until Saturday evening. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Sieghard >>>>> >>>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of >>>>> janet gross >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2023 4:27 PM >>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>> Subject: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac >>>>> to Fellow Blind Computer Users. >>>>> >>>>> Hello Everyone, >>>>> Here is an interesting article I just thought some of you might like to >>>>> read. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://www.applevis.com/blog/we-deserve-better-apple-why-i-can-no-longer-recommend-mac-fellow-blind-computer-users >>>>> We Deserve Better from Apple: Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to >>>>> Fellow Blind Computer Users >>>>> As many of you will know from personal experience, there is a >>>>> longstanding issue with VoiceOver on Mac where Safari will frequently >>>>> become unresponsive with VoiceOver repeatedly announcing the message >>>>> “Safari not responding.” When this issue occurs, the user's Mac may >>>>> become unusable for up to several minutes at a time. Sometimes it can be >>>>> resolved by switching away from Safari. Sometimes restarting VoiceOver >>>>> can resolve the issue. How
RE: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users.
I have given some thought to getting a mac when I can afford it. -Original Message- From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of Kliph Sent: Monday, October 16, 2023 1:24 PM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users. I second that, I have to use windows for work, and you wouldn’t believe how many trouble tickets I have to submit a week for jaws issues. > On Oct 15, 2023, at 9:39 PM, Ed Worrell wrote: > > This article is very, very, very late to the game. I have not had this issue > with Safari freezing on my Mac computers in a very long time. Probably in > over 3 years. I really don’t understand the hatred from the post on AppleVis. > The AppleVis site has become very negative in the last few years. I’m not > saying Apple is perfect by any means, but this goes a bit far. I have had > more issues with my Windows 11 machine with JAWS installed, over the last > year. > > Ed > > >> On Oct 8, 2023, at 8:43 PM, Mike Arrigo wrote: >> >> Chrome and Firefox both work really well. >> >>> On Oct 8, 2023, at 7:40 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote: >>> >>> Hi Group, >>> >>> Since this editorial involves primarily Safari browser and since there are >>> other browsers such as Firefox that can be used on the Mac, has anyone >>> tried Firefox on a Mac or perhaps any other browser? >>> >>> >>> On 10/8/2023 7:35 PM, Sieghard Weitzel wrote: >>>> I love my iPhone and even my Apple TV, but while I tried Voiceover on a >>>> MAC a little, it is not a system I would want to deal with on a day-to-day >>>> bases. >>>> Maybe that is because I have been using Jaws at first with DOS in 1989 and >>>> since the mid 90’s with Windows, but I can’t even imagine what such a bug >>>> would do to me now when my retail business runs on a web-based point of >>>> fsale and accounting platform and I virtually use Chrome (or sometimes >>>> Edge) along with Excel and Outlook literally all day long. >>>> Of course I don’t claim that Windows 11 with the latest version of a >>>> Chromium-based web browser or Firefox and Jaws 2023 and for a while now >>>> Jaws 2024 in Beta is perfect, but it’s very rare that Windows, Chrome or >>>> Jaws crashes when I use our point of sale, Lightspeed Retail and I often >>>> go the entire week without having to reboot my computer. On Saturday >>>> evenings we usually turn all the computers at my store off since we are >>>> closed Sundays, but once they get turned on Monday morning they stay on >>>> until Saturday evening. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Sieghard >>>> >>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of >>>> janet gross >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2023 4:27 PM >>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >>>> Subject: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac >>>> to Fellow Blind Computer Users. >>>> >>>> Hello Everyone, >>>> Here is an interesting article I just thought some of you might like to >>>> read. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.applevis.com/blog/we-deserve-better-apple-why-i-can-no-longer-recommend-mac-fellow-blind-computer-users >>>> We Deserve Better from Apple: Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to >>>> Fellow Blind Computer Users >>>> As many of you will know from personal experience, there is a longstanding >>>> issue with VoiceOver on Mac where Safari will frequently become >>>> unresponsive with VoiceOver repeatedly announcing the message “Safari not >>>> responding.” When this issue occurs, the user's Mac may become unusable >>>> for up to several minutes at a time. Sometimes it can be resolved by >>>> switching away from Safari. Sometimes restarting VoiceOver can resolve the >>>> issue. However, far too often, the user is unable to switch away from >>>> Safari or turn VoiceOver off, instead having to simply wait for their Mac >>>> to become responsive again. >>>> This “Safari not responding” behaviour when using VoiceOver dramatically >>>> impacts productivity and overall usability of Macs for blind and low >>>> vision users. Furthermore, it appears that the issue extends beyond just >>>> Safari - many other common applications that utilise Apple's WebKit >>>> browser engine can also
Re: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users.
I second that, I have to use windows for work, and you wouldn’t believe how many trouble tickets I have to submit a week for jaws issues. > On Oct 15, 2023, at 9:39 PM, Ed Worrell wrote: > > This article is very, very, very late to the game. I have not had this issue > with Safari freezing on my Mac computers in a very long time. Probably in > over 3 years. I really don’t understand the hatred from the post on AppleVis. > The AppleVis site has become very negative in the last few years. I’m not > saying Apple is perfect by any means, but this goes a bit far. I have had > more issues with my Windows 11 machine with JAWS installed, over the last > year. > > Ed > > >> On Oct 8, 2023, at 8:43 PM, Mike Arrigo wrote: >> >> Chrome and Firefox both work really well. >> >>> On Oct 8, 2023, at 7:40 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote: >>> >>> Hi Group, >>> >>> Since this editorial involves primarily Safari browser and since there are >>> other browsers such as Firefox that can be used on the Mac, has anyone >>> tried Firefox on a Mac or perhaps any other browser? >>> >>> >>> On 10/8/2023 7:35 PM, Sieghard Weitzel wrote: >>>> I love my iPhone and even my Apple TV, but while I tried Voiceover on a >>>> MAC a little, it is not a system I would want to deal with on a day-to-day >>>> bases. >>>> Maybe that is because I have been using Jaws at first with DOS in 1989 and >>>> since the mid 90’s with Windows, but I can’t even imagine what such a bug >>>> would do to me now when my retail business runs on a web-based point of >>>> fsale and accounting platform and I virtually use Chrome (or sometimes >>>> Edge) along with Excel and Outlook literally all day long. >>>> Of course I don’t claim that Windows 11 with the latest version of a >>>> Chromium-based web browser or Firefox and Jaws 2023 and for a while now >>>> Jaws 2024 in Beta is perfect, but it’s very rare that Windows, Chrome or >>>> Jaws crashes when I use our point of sale, Lightspeed Retail and I often >>>> go the entire week without having to reboot my computer. On Saturday >>>> evenings we usually turn all the computers at my store off since we are >>>> closed Sundays, but once they get turned on Monday morning they stay on >>>> until Saturday evening. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Sieghard >>>> >>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of >>>> janet gross >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2023 4:27 PM >>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >>>> Subject: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac >>>> to Fellow Blind Computer Users. >>>> >>>> Hello Everyone, >>>> Here is an interesting article I just thought some of you might like to >>>> read. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.applevis.com/blog/we-deserve-better-apple-why-i-can-no-longer-recommend-mac-fellow-blind-computer-users >>>> We Deserve Better from Apple: Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to >>>> Fellow Blind Computer Users >>>> As many of you will know from personal experience, there is a longstanding >>>> issue with VoiceOver on Mac where Safari will frequently become >>>> unresponsive with VoiceOver repeatedly announcing the message “Safari not >>>> responding.” When this issue occurs, the user's Mac may become unusable >>>> for up to several minutes at a time. Sometimes it can be resolved by >>>> switching away from Safari. Sometimes restarting VoiceOver can resolve the >>>> issue. However, far too often, the user is unable to switch away from >>>> Safari or turn VoiceOver off, instead having to simply wait for their Mac >>>> to become responsive again. >>>> This “Safari not responding” behaviour when using VoiceOver dramatically >>>> impacts productivity and overall usability of Macs for blind and low >>>> vision users. Furthermore, it appears that the issue extends beyond just >>>> Safari - many other common applications that utilise Apple's WebKit >>>> browser engine can also be affected by the “not responding” problem. >>>> It is also important to point out this issue occurs regardless of the >>>> specification level of the Mac - it has been widely experienced on the >>>> latest Apple silicon-equipped Macs with 16GB or more of RAM, so even >>>> owner
Re: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users.
This article is very, very, very late to the game. I have not had this issue with Safari freezing on my Mac computers in a very long time. Probably in over 3 years. I really don’t understand the hatred from the post on AppleVis. The AppleVis site has become very negative in the last few years. I’m not saying Apple is perfect by any means, but this goes a bit far. I have had more issues with my Windows 11 machine with JAWS installed, over the last year. Ed > On Oct 8, 2023, at 8:43 PM, Mike Arrigo wrote: > > Chrome and Firefox both work really well. > >> On Oct 8, 2023, at 7:40 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote: >> >> Hi Group, >> >> Since this editorial involves primarily Safari browser and since there are >> other browsers such as Firefox that can be used on the Mac, has anyone tried >> Firefox on a Mac or perhaps any other browser? >> >> >> On 10/8/2023 7:35 PM, Sieghard Weitzel wrote: >>> I love my iPhone and even my Apple TV, but while I tried Voiceover on a MAC >>> a little, it is not a system I would want to deal with on a day-to-day >>> bases. >>> Maybe that is because I have been using Jaws at first with DOS in 1989 and >>> since the mid 90’s with Windows, but I can’t even imagine what such a bug >>> would do to me now when my retail business runs on a web-based point of >>> fsale and accounting platform and I virtually use Chrome (or sometimes >>> Edge) along with Excel and Outlook literally all day long. >>> Of course I don’t claim that Windows 11 with the latest version of a >>> Chromium-based web browser or Firefox and Jaws 2023 and for a while now >>> Jaws 2024 in Beta is perfect, but it’s very rare that Windows, Chrome or >>> Jaws crashes when I use our point of sale, Lightspeed Retail and I often go >>> the entire week without having to reboot my computer. On Saturday evenings >>> we usually turn all the computers at my store off since we are closed >>> Sundays, but once they get turned on Monday morning they stay on until >>> Saturday evening. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Sieghard >>> >>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of >>> janet gross >>> Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2023 4:27 PM >>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >>> Subject: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac >>> to Fellow Blind Computer Users. >>> >>> Hello Everyone, >>> Here is an interesting article I just thought some of you might like to >>> read. >>> >>> >>> https://www.applevis.com/blog/we-deserve-better-apple-why-i-can-no-longer-recommend-mac-fellow-blind-computer-users >>> We Deserve Better from Apple: Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow >>> Blind Computer Users >>> As many of you will know from personal experience, there is a longstanding >>> issue with VoiceOver on Mac where Safari will frequently become >>> unresponsive with VoiceOver repeatedly announcing the message “Safari not >>> responding.” When this issue occurs, the user's Mac may become unusable for >>> up to several minutes at a time. Sometimes it can be resolved by switching >>> away from Safari. Sometimes restarting VoiceOver can resolve the issue. >>> However, far too often, the user is unable to switch away from Safari or >>> turn VoiceOver off, instead having to simply wait for their Mac to become >>> responsive again. >>> This “Safari not responding” behaviour when using VoiceOver dramatically >>> impacts productivity and overall usability of Macs for blind and low vision >>> users. Furthermore, it appears that the issue extends beyond just Safari - >>> many other common applications that utilise Apple's WebKit browser engine >>> can also be affected by the “not responding” problem. >>> It is also important to point out this issue occurs regardless of the >>> specification level of the Mac - it has been widely experienced on the >>> latest Apple silicon-equipped Macs with 16GB or more of RAM, so even owners >>> of top-tier new Mac hardware still face this crippling VoiceOver bug. >>> This critical problem has persisted for years across multiple MacOS >>> versions without a permanent fix from Apple. Given the longevity and level >>> of disruption caused by this bug across Safari and other applications, I >>> can unfortunately no longer in good faith recommend Macs to anyone who >>> relies on using VoiceOver. The impact of this bug when performing routine, >>>
Re: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users.
Chrome and Firefox both work really well. > On Oct 8, 2023, at 7:40 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote: > > Hi Group, > > Since this editorial involves primarily Safari browser and since there are > other browsers such as Firefox that can be used on the Mac, has anyone tried > Firefox on a Mac or perhaps any other browser? > > > On 10/8/2023 7:35 PM, Sieghard Weitzel wrote: >> I love my iPhone and even my Apple TV, but while I tried Voiceover on a MAC >> a little, it is not a system I would want to deal with on a day-to-day bases. >> Maybe that is because I have been using Jaws at first with DOS in 1989 and >> since the mid 90’s with Windows, but I can’t even imagine what such a bug >> would do to me now when my retail business runs on a web-based point of >> fsale and accounting platform and I virtually use Chrome (or sometimes Edge) >> along with Excel and Outlook literally all day long. >> Of course I don’t claim that Windows 11 with the latest version of a >> Chromium-based web browser or Firefox and Jaws 2023 and for a while now Jaws >> 2024 in Beta is perfect, but it’s very rare that Windows, Chrome or Jaws >> crashes when I use our point of sale, Lightspeed Retail and I often go the >> entire week without having to reboot my computer. On Saturday evenings we >> usually turn all the computers at my store off since we are closed Sundays, >> but once they get turned on Monday morning they stay on until Saturday >> evening. >> >> Best regards, >> Sieghard >> >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of janet >> gross >> Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2023 4:27 PM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to >> Fellow Blind Computer Users. >> >> Hello Everyone, >> Here is an interesting article I just thought some of you might like to >> read. >> >> >> https://www.applevis.com/blog/we-deserve-better-apple-why-i-can-no-longer-recommend-mac-fellow-blind-computer-users >> We Deserve Better from Apple: Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow >> Blind Computer Users >> As many of you will know from personal experience, there is a longstanding >> issue with VoiceOver on Mac where Safari will frequently become unresponsive >> with VoiceOver repeatedly announcing the message “Safari not responding.” >> When this issue occurs, the user's Mac may become unusable for up to several >> minutes at a time. Sometimes it can be resolved by switching away from >> Safari. Sometimes restarting VoiceOver can resolve the issue. However, far >> too often, the user is unable to switch away from Safari or turn VoiceOver >> off, instead having to simply wait for their Mac to become responsive again. >> This “Safari not responding” behaviour when using VoiceOver dramatically >> impacts productivity and overall usability of Macs for blind and low vision >> users. Furthermore, it appears that the issue extends beyond just Safari - >> many other common applications that utilise Apple's WebKit browser engine >> can also be affected by the “not responding” problem. >> It is also important to point out this issue occurs regardless of the >> specification level of the Mac - it has been widely experienced on the >> latest Apple silicon-equipped Macs with 16GB or more of RAM, so even owners >> of top-tier new Mac hardware still face this crippling VoiceOver bug. >> This critical problem has persisted for years across multiple MacOS versions >> without a permanent fix from Apple. Given the longevity and level of >> disruption caused by this bug across Safari and other applications, I can >> unfortunately no longer in good faith recommend Macs to anyone who relies on >> using VoiceOver. The impact of this bug when performing routine, and often >> critical, tasks in Safari and other applications simply makes macOS an >> unreliable and frustrating platform. >> Macs have traditionally been popular within the blind community, and they >> offer some great accessibility features. However, frankly, Apple should be >> utterly ashamed that they have let this issue persist for so long without a >> permanent fix. It's a failing that raises serious questions about the >> company's frequently stated commitment to accessibility. There can be no >> doubt that if sighted users were to experience something similar, that it >> would receive significant media coverage and that Apple's response would be >> fast. >> I believe we need to escalate out urging of Apple to prioritise and >>
Re: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users.
I have the issue sometimes, but I’ve always been able to resolve it, and, Chrome and Firefox are also accessible on the mac, so you don’t even need to use safari if you are having these problems. > On Oct 8, 2023, at 7:02 PM, Brandon Olivares wrote: > > I think this is a bit overblown. Sure I sometimes get the issue but really > not that often. I used to get it far worse before the M1 chip. Every so often > it happens now, but restarting VoiceOver always does the trick. > > I certainly remember how often Windows used to freeze up and sometimes I > couldn’t get jaws working again so I had to do a total restart. > >> On Oct 8, 2023, at 7:27 PM, janet gross wrote: >> >> Hello Everyone, Here is an interesting article I just thought some of you >> might like to read. >> >> https://www.applevis.com/blog/we-deserve-better-apple-why-i-can-no-longer-recommend-mac-fellow-blind-computer-users >> We Deserve Better from Apple: Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow >> Blind Computer Users >> As many of you will know from personal experience, there is a longstanding >> issue with VoiceOver on Mac where Safari will frequently become unresponsive >> with VoiceOver repeatedly announcing the message “Safari not responding.” >> When this issue occurs, the user's Mac may become unusable for up to several >> minutes at a time. Sometimes it can be resolved by switching away from >> Safari. Sometimes restarting VoiceOver can resolve the issue. However, far >> too often, the user is unable to switch away from Safari or turn VoiceOver >> off, instead having to simply wait for their Mac to become responsive again. >> This “Safari not responding” behaviour when using VoiceOver dramatically >> impacts productivity and overall usability of Macs for blind and low vision >> users. Furthermore, it appears that the issue extends beyond just Safari - >> many other common applications that utilise Apple's WebKit browser engine >> can also be affected by the “not responding” problem. >> It is also important to point out this issue occurs regardless of the >> specification level of the Mac - it has been widely experienced on the >> latest Apple silicon-equipped Macs with 16GB or more of RAM, so even owners >> of top-tier new Mac hardware still face this crippling VoiceOver bug. >> This critical problem has persisted for years across multiple MacOS versions >> without a permanent fix from Apple. Given the longevity and level of >> disruption caused by this bug across Safari and other applications, I can >> unfortunately no longer in good faith recommend Macs to anyone who relies on >> using VoiceOver. The impact of this bug when performing routine, and often >> critical, tasks in Safari and other applications simply makes macOS an >> unreliable and frustrating platform. >> Macs have traditionally been popular within the blind community, and they >> offer some great accessibility features. However, frankly, Apple should be >> utterly ashamed that they have let this issue persist for so long without a >> permanent fix. It's a failing that raises serious questions about the >> company's frequently stated commitment to accessibility. There can be no >> doubt that if sighted users were to experience something similar, that it >> would receive significant media coverage and that Apple's response would be >> fast. >> I believe we need to escalate out urging of Apple to prioritise and >> permanently solve the “Safari not responding” bug that has plagued VoiceOver >> users for far too long. To this end, I encourage those of you who use >> VoiceOver on Mac to directly contact Apple's accessibility team at >> accessibil...@apple.com to share your own personal experiences with and >> frustrations about the “Safari not responding” issue. It is important we >> continue putting direct, polite pressure on Apple to prioritise resolving >> this problem. Please be constructive in expressing your concerns. Consider >> also copying Apple CEO Tim Cook on your email by using his publicly shared >> email address tc...@apple.com to ensure he sees the direct impact this >> ongoing bug is having on Apple's blind and low vision customers. >> I want to emphasise that the “Safari not responding” bug is far from the >> only issue effecting VoiceOver users on Mac. As our recent post on problems >> in macOS Sonoma and the replies outline, there are numerous other VoiceOver >> frustrations and failures impacting users. However, it has become a >> yardstick by which Apple's overall performance on and commitment to &g
Re: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users.
I haven't updated to the latest version of mac Os just because I was kind of worried if there were any issues. I don't really use my mac for everyday browsing, it's just for checking email and production work. I haven't been working in logic all that much lately so it's been sitting there looking pretty for a bit. On 10/8/23, John Panarese wrote: > Google Chrome, Brave and Firefox are alternative browsers to Safari on > the Mac. In addition Safari in Sonoma seems to work with better results on > two different machines of mine compared to Ventura. > > There is an old expression about people and opinions that I’m sure some > folks are familiar with. In thirty or so years in this industry, I wish I > had a dollar for every negative review and voiced criticism of a piece of > software, hardware, operating system etc. I’d have retired by now … > > > Take Care > > John D. Panarese > Director > Mac for the Blind > Tel, (631) 724-4479 > Email, j...@macfortheblind.com > Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com > > APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer > > AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE > > MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT > > > > >> On Oct 8, 2023, at 8:40 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote: >> >> Hi Group, >> >> Since this editorial involves primarily Safari browser and since there are >> other browsers such as Firefox that can be used on the Mac, has anyone >> tried Firefox on a Mac or perhaps any other browser? >> >> >> On 10/8/2023 7:35 PM, Sieghard Weitzel wrote: >>> I love my iPhone and even my Apple TV, but while I tried Voiceover on a >>> MAC a little, it is not a system I would want to deal with on a >>> day-to-day bases. >>> >>> Maybe that is because I have been using Jaws at first with DOS in 1989 >>> and since the mid 90’s with Windows, but I can’t even imagine what such a >>> bug would do to me now when my retail business runs on a web-based point >>> of fsale and accounting platform and I virtually use Chrome (or sometimes >>> Edge) along with Excel and Outlook literally all day long. >>> >>> Of course I don’t claim that Windows 11 with the latest version of a >>> Chromium-based web browser or Firefox and Jaws 2023 and for a while now >>> Jaws 2024 in Beta is perfect, but it’s very rare that Windows, Chrome or >>> Jaws crashes when I use our point of sale, Lightspeed Retail and I often >>> go the entire week without having to reboot my computer. On Saturday >>> evenings we usually turn all the computers at my store off since we are >>> closed Sundays, but once they get turned on Monday morning they stay on >>> until Saturday evening. >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Sieghard >>> >>> >>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of >>> janet gross >>> Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2023 4:27 PM >>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>> Subject: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac >>> to Fellow Blind Computer Users. >>> >>> >>> Hello Everyone, >>> >>> Here is an interesting article I just thought some of you might like to >>> read. >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.applevis.com/blog/we-deserve-better-apple-why-i-can-no-longer-recommend-mac-fellow-blind-computer-users >>> >>> We Deserve Better from Apple: Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to >>> Fellow Blind Computer Users >>> >>> As many of you will know from personal experience, there is a >>> longstanding issue with VoiceOver on Mac where Safari will frequently >>> become unresponsive with VoiceOver repeatedly announcing the message >>> “Safari not responding.” When this issue occurs, the user's Mac may >>> become unusable for up to several minutes at a time. Sometimes it can be >>> resolved by switching away from Safari. Sometimes restarting VoiceOver >>> can resolve the issue. However, far too often, the user is unable to >>> switch away from Safari or turn VoiceOver off, instead having to simply >>> wait for their Mac to become responsive again. >>> >>> This “Safari not responding” behaviour when using VoiceOver dramatically >>> impacts productivity and overall usability of Macs for blind and low >>> vision users. Furthermore, it appears that the issue extends beyond just >>> Safari
Re: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users.
Google Chrome, Brave and Firefox are alternative browsers to Safari on the Mac. In addition Safari in Sonoma seems to work with better results on two different machines of mine compared to Ventura. There is an old expression about people and opinions that I’m sure some folks are familiar with. In thirty or so years in this industry, I wish I had a dollar for every negative review and voiced criticism of a piece of software, hardware, operating system etc. I’d have retired by now … Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, j...@macfortheblind.com Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT > On Oct 8, 2023, at 8:40 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote: > > Hi Group, > > Since this editorial involves primarily Safari browser and since there are > other browsers such as Firefox that can be used on the Mac, has anyone tried > Firefox on a Mac or perhaps any other browser? > > > On 10/8/2023 7:35 PM, Sieghard Weitzel wrote: >> I love my iPhone and even my Apple TV, but while I tried Voiceover on a MAC >> a little, it is not a system I would want to deal with on a day-to-day bases. >> >> Maybe that is because I have been using Jaws at first with DOS in 1989 and >> since the mid 90’s with Windows, but I can’t even imagine what such a bug >> would do to me now when my retail business runs on a web-based point of >> fsale and accounting platform and I virtually use Chrome (or sometimes Edge) >> along with Excel and Outlook literally all day long. >> >> Of course I don’t claim that Windows 11 with the latest version of a >> Chromium-based web browser or Firefox and Jaws 2023 and for a while now Jaws >> 2024 in Beta is perfect, but it’s very rare that Windows, Chrome or Jaws >> crashes when I use our point of sale, Lightspeed Retail and I often go the >> entire week without having to reboot my computer. On Saturday evenings we >> usually turn all the computers at my store off since we are closed Sundays, >> but once they get turned on Monday morning they stay on until Saturday >> evening. >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Sieghard >> >> >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of >> janet gross >> Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2023 4:27 PM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >> Subject: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to >> Fellow Blind Computer Users. >> >> >> Hello Everyone, >> >> Here is an interesting article I just thought some of you might like to read. >> >> >> >> https://www.applevis.com/blog/we-deserve-better-apple-why-i-can-no-longer-recommend-mac-fellow-blind-computer-users >> >> We Deserve Better from Apple: Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow >> Blind Computer Users >> >> As many of you will know from personal experience, there is a longstanding >> issue with VoiceOver on Mac where Safari will frequently become unresponsive >> with VoiceOver repeatedly announcing the message “Safari not responding.” >> When this issue occurs, the user's Mac may become unusable for up to several >> minutes at a time. Sometimes it can be resolved by switching away from >> Safari. Sometimes restarting VoiceOver can resolve the issue. However, far >> too often, the user is unable to switch away from Safari or turn VoiceOver >> off, instead having to simply wait for their Mac to become responsive again. >> >> This “Safari not responding” behaviour when using VoiceOver dramatically >> impacts productivity and overall usability of Macs for blind and low vision >> users. Furthermore, it appears that the issue extends beyond just Safari - >> many other common applications that utilise Apple's WebKit browser engine >> can also be affected by the “not responding” problem. >> >> It is also important to point out this issue occurs regardless of the >> specification level of the Mac - it has been widely experienced on the >> latest Apple silicon-equipped Macs with 16GB or more of RAM, so even owners >> of top-tier new Mac hardware still face this crippling VoiceOver bug. >> >> This critical problem has persisted for years across multiple MacOS versions >> without a permanent fix from Apple. Given the longevity and level of >> disruption caused by this bug across Safari and other applications, I can >> unfo
Re: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users.
Hi Group, Since this editorial involves primarily Safari browser and since there are other browsers such as Firefox that can be used on the Mac, has anyone tried Firefox on a Mac or perhaps any other browser? On 10/8/2023 7:35 PM, Sieghard Weitzel wrote: I love my iPhone and even my Apple TV, but while I tried Voiceover on a MAC a little, it is not a system I would want to deal with on a day-to-day bases. Maybe that is because I have been using Jaws at first with DOS in 1989 and since the mid 90’s with Windows, but I can’t even imagine what such a bug would do to me now when my retail business runs on a web-based point of fsale and accounting platform and I virtually use Chrome (or sometimes Edge) along with Excel and Outlook literally all day long. Of course I don’t claim that Windows 11 with the latest version of a Chromium-based web browser or Firefox and Jaws 2023 and for a while now Jaws 2024 in Beta is perfect, but it’s very rare that Windows, Chrome or Jaws crashes when I use our point of sale, Lightspeed Retail and I often go the entire week without having to reboot my computer. On Saturday evenings we usually turn all the computers at my store off since we are closed Sundays, but once they get turned on Monday morning they stay on until Saturday evening. Best regards, Sieghard *From:*viphone@googlegroups.com *On Behalf Of *janet gross *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2023 4:27 PM *To:* viphone@googlegroups.com *Subject:* We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users. Hello Everyone, Here is an interesting article I just thought some of you might like to read. https://www.applevis.com/blog/we-deserve-better-apple-why-i-can-no-longer-recommend-mac-fellow-blind-computer-users We Deserve Better from Apple: Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users As many of you will know from personal experience, there is a longstanding issue with VoiceOver on Mac where Safari will frequently become unresponsive with VoiceOver repeatedly announcing the message “Safari not responding.” When this issue occurs, the user's Mac may become unusable for up to several minutes at a time. Sometimes it can be resolved by switching away from Safari. Sometimes restarting VoiceOver can resolve the issue. However, far too often, the user is unable to switch away from Safari or turn VoiceOver off, instead having to simply wait for their Mac to become responsive again. This “Safari not responding” behaviour when using VoiceOver dramatically impacts productivity and overall usability of Macs for blind and low vision users. Furthermore, it appears that the issue extends beyond just Safari - many other common applications that utilise Apple's WebKit browser engine can also be affected by the “not responding” problem. It is also important to point out this issue occurs regardless of the specification level of the Mac - it has been widely experienced on the latest Apple silicon-equipped Macs with 16GB or more of RAM, so even owners of top-tier new Mac hardware still face this crippling VoiceOver bug. This critical problem has persisted for years across multiple MacOS versions without a permanent fix from Apple. Given the longevity and level of disruption caused by this bug across Safari and other applications, I can unfortunately no longer in good faith recommend Macs to anyone who relies on using VoiceOver. The impact of this bug when performing routine, and often critical, tasks in Safari and other applications simply makes macOS an unreliable and frustrating platform. Macs have traditionally been popular within the blind community, and they offer some great accessibility features. However, frankly, Apple should be utterly ashamed that they have let this issue persist for so long without a permanent fix. It's a failing that raises serious questions about the company's frequently stated commitment to accessibility. There can be no doubt that if sighted users were to experience something similar, that it would receive significant media coverage and that Apple's response would be fast. I believe we need to escalate out urging of Apple to prioritise and permanently solve the “Safari not responding” bug that has plagued VoiceOver users for far too long. To this end, I encourage those of you who use VoiceOver on Mac to directly contact Apple's accessibility team at accessibil...@apple.com <mailto:accessibil...@apple.com> to share your own personal experiences with and frustrations about the “Safari not responding” issue. It is important we continue putting direct, polite pressure on Apple to prioritise resolving this problem. Please be constructive in expressing your concerns. Consider also copying Apple CEO Tim Cook on your email by using his publicly shared email address tc...@apple.com <mailto:tc...@apple.com> to ensure he sees th
Re: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users.
I think this is a bit overblown. Sure I sometimes get the issue but really not that often. I used to get it far worse before the M1 chip. Every so often it happens now, but restarting VoiceOver always does the trick. I certainly remember how often Windows used to freeze up and sometimes I couldn’t get jaws working again so I had to do a total restart. > On Oct 8, 2023, at 7:27 PM, janet gross wrote: > > Hello Everyone, > Here is an interesting article I just thought some of you might like to read. > > > https://www.applevis.com/blog/we-deserve-better-apple-why-i-can-no-longer-recommend-mac-fellow-blind-computer-users > > We Deserve Better from Apple: Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow > Blind Computer Users > As many of you will know from personal experience, there is a longstanding > issue with VoiceOver on Mac where Safari will frequently become unresponsive > with VoiceOver repeatedly announcing the message “Safari not responding.” > When this issue occurs, the user's Mac may become unusable for up to several > minutes at a time. Sometimes it can be resolved by switching away from > Safari. Sometimes restarting VoiceOver can resolve the issue. However, far > too often, the user is unable to switch away from Safari or turn VoiceOver > off, instead having to simply wait for their Mac to become responsive again. > > This “Safari not responding” behaviour when using VoiceOver dramatically > impacts productivity and overall usability of Macs for blind and low vision > users. Furthermore, it appears that the issue extends beyond just Safari - > many other common applications that utilise Apple's WebKit browser engine can > also be affected by the “not responding” problem. > > It is also important to point out this issue occurs regardless of the > specification level of the Mac - it has been widely experienced on the latest > Apple silicon-equipped Macs with 16GB or more of RAM, so even owners of > top-tier new Mac hardware still face this crippling VoiceOver bug. > > This critical problem has persisted for years across multiple MacOS versions > without a permanent fix from Apple. Given the longevity and level of > disruption caused by this bug across Safari and other applications, I can > unfortunately no longer in good faith recommend Macs to anyone who relies on > using VoiceOver. The impact of this bug when performing routine, and often > critical, tasks in Safari and other applications simply makes macOS an > unreliable and frustrating platform. > > Macs have traditionally been popular within the blind community, and they > offer some great accessibility features. However, frankly, Apple should be > utterly ashamed that they have let this issue persist for so long without a > permanent fix. It's a failing that raises serious questions about the > company's frequently stated commitment to accessibility. There can be no > doubt that if sighted users were to experience something similar, that it > would receive significant media coverage and that Apple's response would be > fast. > > I believe we need to escalate out urging of Apple to prioritise and > permanently solve the “Safari not responding” bug that has plagued VoiceOver > users for far too long. To this end, I encourage those of you who use > VoiceOver on Mac to directly contact Apple's accessibility team at > accessibil...@apple.com <mailto:accessibil...@apple.com> to share your own > personal experiences with and frustrations about the “Safari not responding” > issue. It is important we continue putting direct, polite pressure on Apple > to prioritise resolving this problem. Please be constructive in expressing > your concerns. Consider also copying Apple CEO Tim Cook on your email by > using his publicly shared email address tc...@apple.com > <mailto:tc...@apple.com> to ensure he sees the direct impact this ongoing bug > is having on Apple's blind and low vision customers. > > I want to emphasise that the “Safari not responding” bug is far from the only > issue effecting VoiceOver users on Mac. As our recent post on problems in > macOS Sonoma and the replies outline, > <https://www.applevis.com/blog/macos-sonoma-new-features-changes-improvements-bugs-blind-low-vision-users> > there are numerous other VoiceOver frustrations and failures impacting > users. However, it has become a yardstick by which Apple's overall > performance on and commitment to accessibility is being judged. It is a > yardstick against which Apple has failed for some considerable time. > > I know many of you share my frustration. I welcome your perspectives and > discussion in the comments. Collectively, we need to apply consumer pre
RE: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users.
I love my iPhone and even my Apple TV, but while I tried Voiceover on a MAC a little, it is not a system I would want to deal with on a day-to-day bases. Maybe that is because I have been using Jaws at first with DOS in 1989 and since the mid 90’s with Windows, but I can’t even imagine what such a bug would do to me now when my retail business runs on a web-based point of fsale and accounting platform and I virtually use Chrome (or sometimes Edge) along with Excel and Outlook literally all day long. Of course I don’t claim that Windows 11 with the latest version of a Chromium-based web browser or Firefox and Jaws 2023 and for a while now Jaws 2024 in Beta is perfect, but it’s very rare that Windows, Chrome or Jaws crashes when I use our point of sale, Lightspeed Retail and I often go the entire week without having to reboot my computer. On Saturday evenings we usually turn all the computers at my store off since we are closed Sundays, but once they get turned on Monday morning they stay on until Saturday evening. Best regards, Sieghard From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of janet gross Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2023 4:27 PM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: We Deserve Better from Apple Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users. Hello Everyone, Here is an interesting article I just thought some of you might like to read. https://www.applevis.com/blog/we-deserve-better-apple-why-i-can-no-longer-recommend-mac-fellow-blind-computer-users We Deserve Better from Apple: Why I Can No Longer Recommend a Mac to Fellow Blind Computer Users As many of you will know from personal experience, there is a longstanding issue with VoiceOver on Mac where Safari will frequently become unresponsive with VoiceOver repeatedly announcing the message “Safari not responding.” When this issue occurs, the user's Mac may become unusable for up to several minutes at a time. Sometimes it can be resolved by switching away from Safari. Sometimes restarting VoiceOver can resolve the issue. However, far too often, the user is unable to switch away from Safari or turn VoiceOver off, instead having to simply wait for their Mac to become responsive again. This “Safari not responding” behaviour when using VoiceOver dramatically impacts productivity and overall usability of Macs for blind and low vision users. Furthermore, it appears that the issue extends beyond just Safari - many other common applications that utilise Apple's WebKit browser engine can also be affected by the “not responding” problem. It is also important to point out this issue occurs regardless of the specification level of the Mac - it has been widely experienced on the latest Apple silicon-equipped Macs with 16GB or more of RAM, so even owners of top-tier new Mac hardware still face this crippling VoiceOver bug. This critical problem has persisted for years across multiple MacOS versions without a permanent fix from Apple. Given the longevity and level of disruption caused by this bug across Safari and other applications, I can unfortunately no longer in good faith recommend Macs to anyone who relies on using VoiceOver. The impact of this bug when performing routine, and often critical, tasks in Safari and other applications simply makes macOS an unreliable and frustrating platform. Macs have traditionally been popular within the blind community, and they offer some great accessibility features. However, frankly, Apple should be utterly ashamed that they have let this issue persist for so long without a permanent fix. It's a failing that raises serious questions about the company's frequently stated commitment to accessibility. There can be no doubt that if sighted users were to experience something similar, that it would receive significant media coverage and that Apple's response would be fast. I believe we need to escalate out urging of Apple to prioritise and permanently solve the “Safari not responding” bug that has plagued VoiceOver users for far too long. To this end, I encourage those of you who use VoiceOver on Mac to directly contact Apple's accessibility team at accessibil...@apple.com<mailto:accessibil...@apple.com> to share your own personal experiences with and frustrations about the “Safari not responding” issue. It is important we continue putting direct, polite pressure on Apple to prioritise resolving this problem. Please be constructive in expressing your concerns. Consider also copying Apple CEO Tim Cook on your email by using his publicly shared email address tc...@apple.com<mailto:tc...@apple.com> to ensure he sees the direct impact this ongoing bug is having on Apple's blind and low vision customers. I want to emphasise that the “Safari not responding” bug is far from the only issue effecting VoiceOver users on Mac. As our recent post on problems in macOS Sonoma and the replies outline,<https://www.a
