Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
Aside, there are private fabrication houses that make short runs of obsolete chips in order to keep mission critical electronics running, such as in aerospace and military applications. I'm not sure what Keysight would actually do, but I would presume not only do they stockpile key parts, both active and passives, as well as full boards for board level swaps, but periodic re-checking their inventory for functional integrity can be a never ending task as components age beyond their expected operational life. If parts truly were to become obsolete even beyond private fabrication, their management should design replacements boards and field test them way in advance of parts becoming extinct, until they decided the product was not worth maintaining. http://www.lansdale.com/ ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] Transmille 8081
Some points of interest: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/8-5-digit-dmm/msg527708/#msg527708 http://bbs.38hot.net/thread-719-1-1.html http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/8-5-digit-dmm/?action=dlattach;attach=56377;image Beyond specs, another consideration is total ownership cost: calibration repair. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] The Art of Electronics
When AoE was released in 1980, the intended audience was electronics for a non-EE major. How this morphed into an engineering text shows how what is 'core' has changed. It had a friendly style, akin to having a instructor with you. AoE was best read in chapter sequence through the fundamentals, and higher chapters expect readers to know material from previous chapters without reference to it. On occasion it used concepts a jump forward but could be figured out by cross referencing its index. It was a semester course for us back in early 1980s. AoE v2 updated more in the digital domain with many corrected errata and typos from V1. I'd wait for V3 2nd printing or later, as typos from 1st printing are being reported as well as I read references to unpublished chapter Xs not in this printing. TS is an excellent text, if you already know the material and just need a refresher. It gets to the point quickly. Only 2 TS editions were translated to English; German has ?10+ editions. The only edition I ever looked at in print was v1, and it was $180+ in 1990s, compared to $50 for AoE new, or $20+ used. TS used in the USA is harder to find, and few V1 I've seen sell near $100+. Student or someone with a cursory interest, cost, writing style and similar breadth could be a tie breaker, AoE V3 sells for ~$100 delivered, and V2 $20-30 used. TS V2 from 2008 is ~$US260 delivered. At 04:33 AM 4/17/2015, Attila Kinali wrote: On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 08:24:38 + Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: How does it compare to the gold standard of the TietzeSchenk? No idea. If you know a bit of german, get yourself a copy of it. You will love the in-depth explanations of the various electronics compontents. Also you can use it to knock out any burglar, should the need arise ;-) You have to remember that not everybody here are professional electronics people, I'm a software person who knows enough electronics to be useful without being dangerous, and I've certainly learned a lot from AOE3 over breakfast this past week. True that. The AoE gives at least a nice overview of quite a few electronics techniques. And probably not the worst thing you can start with, when you are new to electronics. That said, I kind of miss the amateur radio/electronics literature that was so abundant in the 80s. They really did a good job of introducing various circuits and how successfully build them if you don't have any professional equipment. Attila Kinali ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] The Art of Electronics
Orin, that's a great resource, thanks a bunch. I forgot all about Abe's Books. AoE 2nd Edition Int'l version new in $10-15 range. At 05:15 PM 4/18/2015, Orin Eman wrote: Try searching for the TS V2 ISBN, 3540004297 on www.abebooks.com $40 for the International Edition from a somewhat reputable seller. Since this is an international list, I have no qualms about passing this on. Whether you can stand the almost transparent paper and smudgy ink is a different matter. Orin. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] Multimeter input terminal wear
I have some 30+ year old devices still in operation and over time, dirt and less so, oxidation of the contact surfaces, are more problems than the integrity of the jack's connection by friction. Manufacturers and counterfeiter can make very poor jacks, but the good ones have been trouble free. When specified, the spec sheet entry for jack 'wear' is called mating durability cycles or variations in those words. The typical brand name banana jack is rated to 10,000 mating cycles, i.e, connect-disconnect. Thus, is would imply the less you un/mate it, the longer it last. At 06:37 AM 8/16/2014, Andrea Baldoni wrote: Hello! When the multimeter is not in use for some time (say, a day), do you think it's better to leave the banana plugs inserted, or to take them out? There is a certain wear in plugging and unplugging, but letting always in could enlarge the input jacks as well. Best regards, Andrea Baldoni ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] Datron 1082
Just a side comment, if this battery is the same as the one made by the company Tenergy in Fremont, CA, they are just shy of 10 years old, so it looks like this Datron 1082 has had its battery changed once in recent memory. At 12:25 AM 4/23/2014, Randy Evans wrote: I just took out the battery and it is a Tenergy 3.6 VDC 1200mAH ER14250 with tabs welded on. Randy ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] What is Transfer Accuracy?
I think its fuzzy but most all good DMM have it specified using some term. Its a term I see HP or Agilent use mostly. Fluke 5808a uses the term 'Transfer Uncertainty', which is inline with metrology replacing the term 'accuracy' with 'uncertainty' _and_ a confidence interval [ which was undefined by the term 'accuracy']. A common understanding of 'transfer accuracy' presumes it could be used as a transfer reference in a pinch. Transfer references in general are secondary references used to transfer the primary reference value to other devices; a Fluke 732b is a transfer reference, its portable and has defined accuracy to 30 days, while the primary reference, say a Josephson Junction, cannot be moved from its location. Per manual, the 3458a 'transfer accuracy' are specified for 10 minutes to a primary reference and requires the original calibration temperature +/- specified limits [ this is vital to control for ppm drift/temp]. For 10V scale, 10 minute accuracy is 0.05ppm, its 24h spec: 0.5 ppm + 0.05 ppm of scale. The other quoted accuracy is the 1 hr accuracy of 0.1ppm. As Dr. Frank points out very well the great value of this spec is making ratio measurements. However, its not implied by the stated manual specification. OTAH 10 minutes or even 1hr is barely enough time to run from the primary standard to your lab, so it must be used in other ways. Ratio measurements are independent of DMM drift since calibration: its most dependent on the shortest term accuracy, aka 'transfer accuracy', ambient temperature, linearity of the device and naturally, the accuracy of your reference. Based on the manual specs, the longer you delay making the ratio measurement the more likely the 3458a will drift, so keeping it under 10 min give you the best results; beyond it you're then at the 1 hour accuracy, and beyond 1 hr, you'd use the 24 hr accuracy. At 12:44 PM 5/4/2014, Jan Fredriksson wrote: Is there a common understanding about what transfer accuracy means or is it more of a fuzzy term? ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] VS330
Finally got to see it, thanks for making it available, its now online via K04BB's site. Its very similar to its other voltage references such as the MV106 but the best thing is its impressive voltage range at ~30ppm/yr worse case accuracy. At 12:32 AM 9/12/2013, Joseph Gray wrote: I did finally get a manual for the EDC VS330 DC Voltage Standard from Khron-Hite. I asked them if it was OK to upload it the the KO4BB site. After two weeks and no reply, I figured they didn't care, so I uploaded it. It should appear for download sometime soon. Joe Gray W5JG ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] Calibration and Certification - Trust and detail
Its one reason to obtain a 3456a and keep as a reference DMM, you can take the modern meter as a workhorse and give it wear and tear. Now a choice between the 3456a and 3457a I leave to the owner's need for the trade offs between them. At 02:17 AM 8/13/2013, Robert Atkinson wrote: Hi , Newer does not mean better. It's not nuts level, but my Fluke 8060A 4.5 digit handhelds are more accurate and stable than my newer 89 IV. However most engineers would pick up the 89. I agree with Dave on UK engineers For many years I've been a member of the very few groups of engineer in the UK who need a licence to do their job - aircraft, but even that has been diluted since EU regulations came into force. I'm also a Chartered Engineer similar to PE in the USA. As I understand it most US States require you to be a PE before you can do business as an Engineer. In the UK it's a bloke with an oily rag and big hammer :-( Robert CEng MRAeS G8RPI ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] Calibration Device
As digits rise, applications are less 'general', but these meters at the outset were mostly for labs, not for servicing. Work in instrumentation: sensors, transducers etc., can use uV precision foremost, accuracy preferred. A diff DVM is ideal but not necessary, a sensitive DMM is a cheaper substitute. http://www.sensorland.com/HowPage078.html At 12:09 PM 8/12/2013, J. Forster wrote: My main interest is as a 'sanity check'. I use DMMs for engineering purposes. Shields up: IMO, there are very few applications, other than fundamental physics research, that really NEED 5,6,7, or 8+ digits. I would no more use a multi digit DVM to do what can be done with a differential voltmeter than use a carrier phase tracking GPS to measure for a living room carpet. Shields down. -John Sincerely, Marv Philadelphia, PA ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] Leave it on?
If its likely still in cal after being in storage for ? years, it likely doesn't matter. In general, its best never to turn off high accuracy devices once they are in a stable state. Aging of references is more reliable [ i.e., reduced uncertainty] when the device is kept under power. Its a bigger issue with 7.5 digit DMM and more. The EDC calibrators were made to be portable, however in the specs the shortest term accuracy rating, ~ 1 hr of 5ppm suggests to me the unit performs best if left powered on, if used as a reference. If may not hold at 5ppm to a year, but it likely may be better than its 30ppm or so, worse case. With the unit on, the quiescent operating temp of the device plus stable lab temperatures eliminates thermal shock as one factor to destabilize your reference's setting. At 01:27 AM 8/9/2013, Joseph Gray wrote: Since the VS330 is designed to be a portable voltage standard, is it better to leave it on all the time or not? The manuals for other models don't say, but they do talk about the short power up time to achieve rated accuracy. So far, I have left it on. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 510A
A 6.5 or better will find a good home and be appreciated in your lab, Joe. Many orphans need homes always appear on eBay, particularly the top line of its day HPs: 3455a, 3456a, and 3457a. There is a lot of discussion on the pros and cons of each throughout the archives, but any will be an order of magnitude better than the 5.5 digit. At 02:33 PM 8/10/2013, Joseph Gray wrote: Oops. It was getting late and I guess my fingers typed the wrong digit :-). Yes, I was thinking about getting a better DMM. Joe Gray W5JG Sincerely, Marv Philadelphia, PA ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration
I don't know what logo cal is, but between Z540 and 17025 is a question of procedures and how they are done. In metrology the procedures, and how strict they are, reduce the risk of uncertainty in the final measurement. For example, some procedures in Z540 can be 'interpreted' where in 17025 is explicit, thus there is more room in Z540 for one lab to be worse than another, or vice versa, which defeats the purpose of standardization. This 'intepretation' is fairly reduced when the device is cal'd by an autocalibrator such for close case calibration DMMs, but becomes a big issue with any manual cal. If these do not mean anything to you and you do not need the data for long term drift calculations, ISO 9001 is good to go. IMHO the difference between all 3 is insignificant for 5.5 digit DMMs, except for one's need for data. http://us.flukecal.com/literature/articles-and-education/temperature-calibration/papers-articles/comparison-ansincsl-z540-1?geoip=1 At 12:30 PM 8/7/2013, Joseph Gray wrote: I just got the following quote for getting my HP 3478A calibrated. 35.00 for ISO 9001 no data 87.50 for Z540 with data and uncertainties 275.00 for 17025 with data, uncertainties and logo calibration. I still didn't get any explaination as to exactly what the lab does for each of these price points. When I asked about the Level 4 listed next to the meter, I was told that it is the difficulty level. Still not telling me much. I have read the procedure in the HP service manual and it is very easy. You set some volt, amp, ohm values on the standard, then push some buttons on the meter. I understand about getting data or not, it is the other aspects that I don't understand. What is Z540, 17025 and logo calibration? Joe Gray W5JG Sincerely, Marv Philadelphia, PA ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] EDC VS330 Voltage Standard
I've seen many EDC/KH calibrator models but your VSS 330 is novel; most of EDC's popular calibrators were precision low voltage types; VS330 has such a wide dynamic range, 100nV to 300VDC, 30 ppm. The variants of the 100 were popular i.e., 103, 106, 106J etc., IIRC the manual for those models are almost identical except for the added functions that were linked to the key reference board. Additional specs: http://www.ebay.com/itm/EDC-VS330-/141017199834?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item20d547b4da EDC made a good number of products with variations and judging from KH selection, not all of the documentation was salvaged when KH bought EDC. At 09:08 PM 8/5/2013, Joseph Gray wrote: I got another response from K-H. They also won't calibrate this model. So far, the only place that I have found a manual is Surplus Sales. They list a copy of the manual for $20. I'll think about it while I keep looking for a free one. Joe Gray W5JG Sincerely, Marv Philadelphia, PA ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
