Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[mixent]

In reply to  Eric Walker's message of Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:27:54 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>In this case, it seems like the release of energy of the alpha emitter is
>efficiently transmitted into mechanical energy by way of the expanding
>ionized gas.  Any increase in temperature as the gas recondenses will be
>smaller than the initial energy released by the alpha emitter when the
>decay was induced, as some of it will go to heating the motor.  It is here
>that Robin's question becomes interesting (assuming I've understood it).
>If we work backwards from the work needed to move the piston through a
>cycle, we can ask, how much induced alpha activity is needed in order to
>provide the work for a full cycle, and how much alpha emitter would that
>imply?  Is the scenario even realistic?
>
>Eric

Suppose that the spark current speeded up the alpha decay. For the duration of
the spark there would be intense alpha emission producing significant ionization
of the compressed gasses in the cylinder. As soon as the spark stopped, so would
the alpha decay (almost). At that point the plasma is rapidly recombining, and
no new ions are being created. The plasma that was already expanding due to the
increase in number of particles, now continues to expand despite the
recombination, due to the thermal energy release of the recombination.
This is the "work" stroke of the engine. After the work stroke is complete the
gas is conveyed into an adjacent chamber where it is recompressed.

If the engine is cooled, then the recompression won't be completely adiabatic
because some of the heat will be removed by the cooling system during
compression. This helps achieve a high compression, without expending too much
energy, because the temperature doesn't run up so much.

BTW, as you might have guessed, I have a different view on the energy source. ;)

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[mixent]

In reply to  Eric Walker's message of Tue, 13 Oct 2015 20:47:08 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:42 PM,  wrote:
>
>..so Feynman pulled the plug on a non-existent engine, that then can't
>> possibly
>> have exploded (because it didn't exist), and hence there was no ensuing
>> court
>> case? ;)
>>
>
>I think the question that history will be the judge of is whether it was a
>/noble gas/ engine.
>
>Eric

I think the answer to that is obvious. There would have been no point in even
introducing the concept of noble gasses if it were an ordinary engine.

There have been lots of people who invented new gas engines. None went out of
their way to claim they were anything other than what they were, that I am aware
of.

Note also that noble gasses have a distinct advantage if the energy source is
other than the gas itself. They are chemically inert.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Axil Axil]

http://www.google.com/patents/US3977191

The AIROPS engine is a noble gas engine like the Papp engine. This uses UV
to produce plasma expansion just like Holmlid does.

The heart of the Papp engine was the production of excess electrons that
was used to drive the spark that moved the other piston. Controlling that
current(called feedback) was how the Papp engine was regulated. When R.
Feynman took the controls away from Papp in that demo, he forced that
current to grow out of control.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 10:12 PM,  wrote:

> In reply to  Eric Walker's message of Tue, 13 Oct 2015 20:47:08 -0500:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:42 PM,  wrote:
> >
> >..so Feynman pulled the plug on a non-existent engine, that then can't
> >> possibly
> >> have exploded (because it didn't exist), and hence there was no ensuing
> >> court
> >> case? ;)
> >>
> >
> >I think the question that history will be the judge of is whether it was a
> >/noble gas/ engine.
> >
> >Eric
>
> I think the answer to that is obvious. There would have been no point in
> even
> introducing the concept of noble gasses if it were an ordinary engine.
>
> There have been lots of people who invented new gas engines. None went out
> of
> their way to claim they were anything other than what they were, that I am
> aware
> of.
>
> Note also that noble gasses have a distinct advantage if the energy source
> is
> other than the gas itself. They are chemically inert.
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
>
>

RE: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Jones Beene]

-Original Message-
From: mix...@bigpond.com 

> You seem to be conflating Holmlid with CQM, Robin. 

Actually I was conflating it with IRH. Regardless, if one wants to get
energy from somewhere, then an explanation of the source of that energy
needs to be found.

If 50 eV UV is released from the "ash", then 50 eV must have gone into it's
creation.

Robin,

There are any number of way this can happen, including a dynamical Casimir
effect (after all, we are dealing with geometries which are clearly within
the Casimir range) ... but the most provocative possibility comes from a
"hybrid" viewpoint. 

Mills suggests that about 54.4 eV can be derived from the loss of angular
momentum of electron at the second level of redundancy. Perhaps Holmlid has
shown us (by improving on Mills theory)  that when this level is reached,
the UV energy becomes internalized much of the time, no radiation occurs,
and the species shrinks all the way to "ultradense" with no further emission
of any kind.

... which kinda negates the prior conclusion that "both cannot be correct." 

Maybe Holmlid and Mills are both partly correct in a way which goes a long
way towards explaining everything in LENR.

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Eric Walker]

I wrote:

If he knew our trick, one of these naturally occurring isotopes might
> have done the trick:
>

Since tungsten is in the list, and in our day to day experience it does not
decay under alpha decay when we excited it with electrons, I'm guessing the
Q value has to be above a certain threshold in order for the effect to be
obvious (if such an effect exists).  Here is a shorter version of the
previous list, with tungsten left at the end as an impractical lower bound:

e- + 234U => e- + 4He + 230Th + 4858 keV
e- + 235U => e- + 4He + 231Th + 4678 keV
e- + 238U => e- + 4He + 234Th + 4270 keV
e- + 232Th => e- + 4He + 228Ra + 4082 keV
e- + 190Pt => e- + 4He + 186Os + 3252 keV
e- + 209Bi => e- + 4He + 205Tl + 3137 keV
e- + 184Os => e- + 4He + 180W + 2957 keV
e- + 186Os => e- + 4He + 182W + 2820 keV
e- + 187Os => e- + 4He + 183W + 2721 keV
e- + 180W => e- + 4He + 176Hf + 2515 keV

Of these, only 190Pt was in the earlier list of impurities found in
palladium.

Eric

RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Roarty, Francis X]

Guys,
Did the Papp engine need to be cranked like an ICE? If so I am thinking 
mechanical energy is the bootstrap source of energy. The noble gases forming 
menisci around other, plasma forming gases,  that collapse rapidly as the 
engine is cranked like bubbles in sonoluminesce. The alpha emitter might 
synchronize local energy release of plasma bubbles nearing their threshold. 
Fran

-Original Message-
From: mix...@bigpond.com [mailto:mix...@bigpond.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 11:30 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable 
isotopes

In reply to  Eric Walker's message of Mon, 12 Oct 2015 21:17:34 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:03 PM,   wrote:
>
>> The real question is where did the energy come from to create the plasma?
>
>In the scenario we're considering here, the energy came from the
>induced decay of an alpha emitter that was introduced into the Papp
>engine.
>
>Eric

I doubt there was enough of it (but I'm just guessing).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Bob Higgins]

It seems like a reciprocating Papp engine would need to have a cyclic
pressurization, not something the continually increases pressure as you are
describing.  I thought the reported mechanism had a way to catalyze
pressure increase electrically and then the pressure returned to the prior
lower pressure state.  From this cyclic pressure, mechanical energy was
extracted.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:31 AM, Eric Walker  wrote:

> I wrote:
>
> If he knew our trick, one of these naturally occurring isotopes might
>> have done the trick:
>>
>
> Since tungsten is in the list, and in our day to day experience it does
> not decay under alpha decay when we excited it with electrons, I'm guessing
> the Q value has to be above a certain threshold in order for the effect to
> be obvious (if such an effect exists).  Here is a shorter version of the
> previous list, with tungsten left at the end as an impractical lower bound:
>
> e- + 234U => e- + 4He + 230Th + 4858 keV
> e- + 235U => e- + 4He + 231Th + 4678 keV
> e- + 238U => e- + 4He + 234Th + 4270 keV
> e- + 232Th => e- + 4He + 228Ra + 4082 keV
> e- + 190Pt => e- + 4He + 186Os + 3252 keV
> e- + 209Bi => e- + 4He + 205Tl + 3137 keV
> e- + 184Os => e- + 4He + 180W + 2957 keV
> e- + 186Os => e- + 4He + 182W + 2820 keV
> e- + 187Os => e- + 4He + 183W + 2721 keV
> e- + 180W => e- + 4He + 176Hf + 2515 keV
>
> Of these, only 190Pt was in the earlier list of impurities found in
> palladium.
>
> Eric
>
>

RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Roarty, Francis X]

I think the energy source is zero point , the down stoke compressing the noble 
gases into layers of flat menisci surrounding other exotic gases that react to 
the collapsing menisci like moving Casimir plates. Effectively changing their 
inertial frame via vacuum engineering. … IMHO :_)
Fran

From: Bob Higgins [mailto:rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:14 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable 
isotopes

It seems like a reciprocating Papp engine would need to have a cyclic 
pressurization, not something the continually increases pressure as you are 
describing.  I thought the reported mechanism had a way to catalyze pressure 
increase electrically and then the pressure returned to the prior lower 
pressure state.  From this cyclic pressure, mechanical energy was extracted.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:31 AM, Eric Walker 
> wrote:
I wrote:

If he knew our trick, one of these naturally occurring isotopes might
have done the trick:

Since tungsten is in the list, and in our day to day experience it does not 
decay under alpha decay when we excited it with electrons, I'm guessing the Q 
value has to be above a certain threshold in order for the effect to be obvious 
(if such an effect exists).  Here is a shorter version of the previous list, 
with tungsten left at the end as an impractical lower bound:

e- + 234U => e- + 4He + 230Th + 4858 keV
e- + 235U => e- + 4He + 231Th + 4678 keV
e- + 238U => e- + 4He + 234Th + 4270 keV
e- + 232Th => e- + 4He + 228Ra + 4082 keV
e- + 190Pt => e- + 4He + 186Os + 3252 keV
e- + 209Bi => e- + 4He + 205Tl + 3137 keV
e- + 184Os => e- + 4He + 180W + 2957 keV
e- + 186Os => e- + 4He + 182W + 2820 keV
e- + 187Os => e- + 4He + 183W + 2721 keV
e- + 180W => e- + 4He + 176Hf + 2515 keV

Of these, only 190Pt was in the earlier list of impurities found in palladium.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Eric Walker]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Bob Higgins 
wrote:

It seems like a reciprocating Papp engine would need to have a cyclic
> pressurization, not something the continually increases pressure as you are
> describing.  I thought the reported mechanism had a way to catalyze
> pressure increase electrically and then the pressure returned to the prior
> lower pressure state.  From this cyclic pressure, mechanical energy was
> extracted.
>

Your understanding is the same as mine.  My hope was that the induced alpha
decay would only ionize the noble gas and not increase the temperature of
the system significantly.  If the temperature of the system did increase
beyond a certain point, I assume you'd get problems.  Regardless, I imagine
that there would be a gradual buildup of heat and that you'd have to manage
it.

Interesting speculation:  when Feynman pulled the power chord on the engine
and it continued to run, what he disabled was a coolant system.

Eric

[Vo]:LENR - who needs it?

[Jones Beene]

Most of this came out in 2004, but somehow has been ignored by LENR proponents, 
not to mention the mainstream of physics. Maybe that oversight is because of 
one implication, which can be interpreted as this: 

LENR –who needs it? :-)

Which is to say: LENR is nice, but if one can manufacture ultradense hydrogen 
(IRH) in bulk for a reasonable cost, then we really do not need LENR per se. 
The the chemical energy of ultradense hydrogen is sufficient by itself to 
change the world, without the need for e-cats, hot-cats, Rossi, or anything 
nuclear.

According to Holmlid: since the bonding distance of this species is known, the 
theoretical value for the chemical energy of that bonding distance (150 pm) is 
163 kJ mol-1 (175 MJ kg-1). This is a factor of almost 10 times more than 
burning hydrogen in oxygen. 

Thus, IRH may become an important future energy carrier regardless of whether 
nuclear energy can be extracted or not, since the chemical energy alone is 
adequate for a paradigm shift. Caveat: a reliable value of the atomic binding 
energy of ultra-dense hydrogen in bulk is not known, since it has never been 
produced in bulk (unless in a military or “black R program). The cost of 
producing it is not known either. OTOH, according to Randell Mills, even the 
less dense hydrino has this high level of chemical energy.

Moreover, according to Holmlid, ultradense hydrogen can be made using low 
pressure contact with a common petrochemical catalyst at low temperature. How 
costly could it be? 

Ya’ gotta think, if our military industrial complex is not completely asleep at 
the wheel, then somewhere, in some secret facility in some god-forsaken desert, 
there are hundreds of little reactors managed by robots making IRH by the ton.

Ok, ok. Maybe that is the plot of the sequel to “Chain Reaction” …

Re: [Vo]:Cross section reduction at lower energies

[Eric Walker]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 3:12 AM, Stefan Israelsson Tampe <
stefan.ita...@gmail.com> wrote:

>In the model of infinitesimally thin orbitspheres with a charge
> distribution >described by spherical harmonics, how does Mills account for
> electron >degeneracy levels?  Are they explained by having several
> orbitspheres >coexisting simultaneously at the same radius?  If the radius
> of each >orbitsphere is distinct, how are degeneracy levels explained?
>
> I do believe that the orthogonallity is behind Mills approach as well, the
> traped photons Is of the nature jl Ylm exp(iwt). then at the radius r, the
> bessel jl is zero and the outside has zero electrical potential due to a
> boundary condition of the form C*Ylm*exp(iwt) on  the sphere.
>

I understand you to be saying that in Mills there are degenerate
orbitspheres to account for the degenerate electron energy levels known in
mainstream chemistry.  I also understand the above to mean that, in your
understanding, several orbitspheres sometimes coexist at the same radius
but are orthogonal to one another (in a purely mathematical sense) to allow
this degeneracy.

A followup question: are there similarly degenerate electron levels below
the ground state, where there are several orbitspheres at the same radius?
If not, why not?

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Eric Walker]

I wrote:

Interesting speculation:  when Feynman pulled the power chord on the engine
> and it continued to run, what he disabled was a coolant system.
>

I suppose he might have both pulled a power cord and a power chord.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:OT: Interesting interactive graphics depicting who is buying the 2016 presidential race

[Lennart Thornros]

Mark and Steven,
I think you both miss the point. 'You think the dollars spent on election
campaigns are a non-issue.
I think it is terrible to spend money to be informed of two candidates with
almost the same agenda. Yes we spend money - if nothing else we talk about
tax free contributions.
More important. Back in times when the candidates had to travel by train
and speak to small groups from the last cars platform there was no other
way to bring the message out. Today we have the internet and we have ways
to communicate like Youtube, GoToMeeting etc. We would be better off having
a group of highly qualified experts providing us the information and then
we could take our positions as a person. I know you are going to say that
there are too many new laws and we would all be sitting there trying to
decide what to say or the votes would be poorly based (just like today). I
think that by bringing most decision to a local level and limit the number
of new laws (having limited number of experts), would make it work.
Steven at least has said that he does have reservations with some
democratic ideas. I think you Mark have to ( sorry for assuming but . . ).
I cannot imagine there is anyone person who would identify his believes
with either party.
As an example on my ballot locally it gives me expert analysis saying how
it will impact cost and how it will impact future security, health care or
 . . .. Even if I am not so well informed about the details I can make up
my mind about what I think would be better.
In my opinion you are on the same side Mark and Steven. On the easy side:)
Or go with the flow.

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 9:05 AM, Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson <
orionwo...@charter.net> wrote:

> Mark,
>
>
>
> I'm impressed by your earnestness in wanting to get clarification. I’ll
> just focus on one exchange. What motivated me to go on the offensive, so to
> speak, was the first comment you made, which was:
>
>
>
> > The NYT article is so blatantly one-sided, but of course, you know
> that...
>
> > at least, I hope you do.
>
>
>
> As the old say'in goes: First impressions count.
>
>
>
> Granted, it may not have been your intention to do so but that was a
> patronizing thing to say to anyone. So what if it’s a one-sided article. So
> what if I posted that “one-side” article out to Vort Land. The world if
> full of one-sided POVs, and inevitably someone’s one-sided POV (or article)
> is not going to align with one’s personal stash of approved POVs. That
> doesn’t make that so-called one-sided POV any less informative.
>
>
>
> As for the rest, to be honest I’m just no longer motivated enuf to go back
> and explain myself. Based on other comments you made I get the impression
> much of anything else I might say pertaining to the political arena would
> be interpreted as yet another leftist “rant” coming from me. You did call
> some of my prior comments “rants”. But, enuf of interpreting my POVs. Let
> me put it another way… maybe you were more accurate than I was on some of
> the points you were trying to make, and perhaps I was more accurate on some
> of the other points. As for me, I would prefer to find common ground on
> what we can agree on rather than what we disagree on. Energy tends to be
> expended more efficiently when we work in a sand box of common ground.
>
>
>
> So, c u back in the Vort Sand box. Perhaps the next time we connect will
> end up on the same side.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Steven Vincent Johnson
>
> OrionWorks.com
>
> zazzle.com/orionworks
>
>
>

RE: [Vo]:OT: Interesting interactive graphics depicting who is buying the 2016 presidential race

[Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson]

Mark,

 

I'm impressed by your earnestness in wanting to get clarification. I'll just
focus on one exchange. What motivated me to go on the offensive, so to
speak, was the first comment you made, which was:

 

> The NYT article is so blatantly one-sided, but of course, you know that...

> at least, I hope you do.

 

As the old say'in goes: First impressions count.

 

Granted, it may not have been your intention to do so but that was a
patronizing thing to say to anyone. So what if it's a one-sided article. So
what if I posted that "one-side" article out to Vort Land. The world if full
of one-sided POVs, and inevitably someone's one-sided POV (or article) is
not going to align with one's personal stash of approved POVs. That doesn't
make that so-called one-sided POV any less informative.

 

As for the rest, to be honest I'm just no longer motivated enuf to go back
and explain myself. Based on other comments you made I get the impression
much of anything else I might say pertaining to the political arena would be
interpreted as yet another leftist "rant" coming from me. You did call some
of my prior comments "rants". But, enuf of interpreting my POVs. Let me put
it another way. maybe you were more accurate than I was on some of the
points you were trying to make, and perhaps I was more accurate on some of
the other points. As for me, I would prefer to find common ground on what we
can agree on rather than what we disagree on. Energy tends to be expended
more efficiently when we work in a sand box of common ground.

 

So, c u back in the Vort Sand box. Perhaps the next time we connect will end
up on the same side.

 

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson

OrionWorks.com

zazzle.com/orionworks

 

[Vo]:tomorrow PdD event, today surprisingly poor Info crop

[Peter Gluck]

http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2015/10/oct-13-2015-lenr-history-cat-in-cradle.html

best wishes,

Peter

-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[mixent]

In reply to  Eric Walker's message of Tue, 13 Oct 2015 00:43:45 -0500:
Hi Eric,

I meant, "I doubt there was enough of it in the engine". One of his patents
might tell you how much was used.

>On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:30 PM,   wrote:
>
>> I doubt there was enough of it (but I'm just guessing).
>
>If he knew our trick, one of these naturally occurring isotopes might
>have done the trick:
>
>142Ce   143Nd   144Nd   145Nd   146Nd   147Sm
>148Nd   148Sm   149Sm   150Sm   152Gd   152Sm
>154Gd   156Dy   158Dy   160Dy   161Dy   162Dy
>162Er   164Er   165Ho   166Er   167Er   168Er
>168Yb   169Tm   170Er   170Yb   171Yb   172Yb
>174Hf   174Yb   176Hf   177Hf   178Hf   179Hf
>180Hf   180Ta   180W181Ta   182W183W
>184Os   184W185Re   186Os   186W187Os
>187Re   188Os   189Os   190Os   190Pt   191Ir
>192Os   192Pt   193Ir   194Pt   195Pt   196Hg
>196Pt   197Au   198Hg   198Pt   199Hg   200Hg
>201Hg   202Hg   203Tl   204Pb   205Tl   206Pb
>207Pb   208Pb   209Bi   232Th   234U235U
>238U
>
>In this list I see tungsten, mercury, lead, platinum, gold and
>depleted uranium.  There's an interesting cost/benefit analysis that
>could be done of the cost of the bulk element versus the fraction of
>relevant isotope.
>
>Eric
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[mixent]

In reply to  Eric Walker's message of Tue, 13 Oct 2015 01:31:18 -0500:
Hi,

Generally speaking the fission barrier gets lower as the element gets heavier,
which is why 235U can  be split with a single neutron.

>I wrote:
>
>If he knew our trick, one of these naturally occurring isotopes might
>> have done the trick:
>>
>
>Since tungsten is in the list, and in our day to day experience it does not
>decay under alpha decay when we excited it with electrons, I'm guessing the
>Q value has to be above a certain threshold in order for the effect to be
>obvious (if such an effect exists).  Here is a shorter version of the
>previous list, with tungsten left at the end as an impractical lower bound:
>
>e- + 234U => e- + 4He + 230Th + 4858 keV
>e- + 235U => e- + 4He + 231Th + 4678 keV
>e- + 238U => e- + 4He + 234Th + 4270 keV
>e- + 232Th => e- + 4He + 228Ra + 4082 keV
>e- + 190Pt => e- + 4He + 186Os + 3252 keV
>e- + 209Bi => e- + 4He + 205Tl + 3137 keV
>e- + 184Os => e- + 4He + 180W + 2957 keV
>e- + 186Os => e- + 4He + 182W + 2820 keV
>e- + 187Os => e- + 4He + 183W + 2721 keV
>e- + 180W => e- + 4He + 176Hf + 2515 keV
>
>Of these, only 190Pt was in the earlier list of impurities found in
>palladium.
>
>Eric
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Bob Higgins]

It would be interesting to consider, the use of a Holmlid condensation of
hydrogen in conjunction with a mechanical engine.  Suppose we had initially
an empty piston and cylinder with the piston at top dead center and having
a surface designed to support a Holmlid dense hydrogen film.  The intake
port opens and the port has a Holmlid catalyst.  As the piston falls,
hydrogen is drawn through the intake port and through the hydrogen catalyst
to draw hydrogen prepared to form an ultra-dense layer into the cylinder.
The ultra-dense hydrogen layer forms on the piston top while it cycles down
and back up.  As the piston reaches TDC, an electrical discharge occurs
causing the condensate to fail and be released as H1 and H2 gas - at a much
larger volume.  The sudden high pressure forces the piston down and the the
flywheel keeps it headed back up.  The exhaust port opens up and the H2 gas
is pushed out easily (perhaps into a reservoir).  At TDC, the exhaust port
closes and the intake port opens to admit more catalyzed hydrogen to form a
new ultra-dense hydrogen layer on the piston.

The cycle is making the ultra-dense hydrogen layer and then triggering its
expansion into ordinary hydrogen gas - a huge expansion.

Bob Higgins

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:58 PM, David Roberson  wrote:

> I agree with what you guys are saying about some form of cyclic pressure
> function.   Of course I can imagine that a significant temperature pulse
> might be present when the piston is near its maximum compression point.
> The following expansion inside the cylinder should allow the gas
> temperature to fall as the piston extracts mechanical energy during the
> time that the volume of gas increases.
>
> For a thought experiment lets assume that we have a long cylinder with a
> piston driving a mechanical load.  Inside the cylinder is a certain volume
> of gas particles at atmospheric temperature and pressure.  If we were to
> push the piston inwards the gas would compress and get hotter as mechanical
> work is delivered to it.  I believe that this is a reversible process
> provided that no heat is allowed to escape from the compressed gas.  So, if
> we allowed the piston to pass through top dead center, it would then
> perform mechanical work on its load equal to what we inputted as it returns
> to the original location.  Is it safe to assume that the gas would return
> to its original state where it is at room temperature and pressure and
> occupies the same volume?
>
> With this cycle in mind, Papp's process might work if it somehow causes a
> rapid increase in the number of gas particles present when the piston
> is near the top dead center point.  The temperature of the gas would likely
> rise at that time due to the increased compression.  But, if good
> insulation is present to keep the heat loss to a low value, the gas would
> certainly apply additional force to the piston rod as it expands outwards.
> Additional mechanical work beyond that required to complete the original
> cycle without the Papp process would be generated.  As before, expansion
> would cause the gas temperature to fall significantly as the piston
> continues its outward motion.
>
> If the timing were fortunate, the gas would return to its original number
> of particles.  In that case the gas could nearly recover to its initial
> state to begin another cycle.  The input energy pulse would effectively be
> converted into mechanical work at a high efficiency.  I have a suspicion
> that this cycle would violate at least one of the thermodynamic laws.
>
> Does my thought cycle match what you guys are thinking?  It is quite
> similar to the normal gasoline engine in operation except that the number
> of particles of the working gas increase instead of just their temperature
> when external energy is added.  Could this occur in a real world engine?
> If so, Papp might actually have produced a working device.
>
> We need a better understanding of exactly what happens to a gas which
> undergoes a rapid increased to particle numbers followed by a return to it
> initial composition in this type of environment.
>
> Dave
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Eric Walker 
> To: vortex-l 
> Sent: Tue, Oct 13, 2015 10:38 am
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Bob Higgins 
> wrote:
>
> It seems like a reciprocating Papp engine would need to have a cyclic
>> pressurization, not something the continually increases pressure as you are
>> describing.  I thought the reported mechanism had a way to catalyze
>> pressure increase electrically and then the pressure returned to the prior
>> lower pressure state.  From this cyclic pressure, mechanical energy was
>> extracted.
>>
>
> Your understanding is the same as mine.  My hope was that the induced
> alpha decay would only ionize the noble gas and not increase the

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[David Roberson]

I agree with what you guys are saying about some form of cyclic pressure 
function.   Of course I can imagine that a significant temperature pulse might 
be present when the piston is near its maximum compression point.  The 
following expansion inside the cylinder should allow the gas temperature to 
fall as the piston extracts mechanical energy during the time that the volume 
of gas increases.

For a thought experiment lets assume that we have a long cylinder with a piston 
driving a mechanical load.  Inside the cylinder is a certain volume of gas 
particles at atmospheric temperature and pressure.  If we were to push the 
piston inwards the gas would compress and get hotter as mechanical work is 
delivered to it.  I believe that this is a reversible process provided that no 
heat is allowed to escape from the compressed gas.  So, if we allowed the 
piston to pass through top dead center, it would then perform mechanical work 
on its load equal to what we inputted as it returns to the original location.  
Is it safe to assume that the gas would return to its original state where it 
is at room temperature and pressure and occupies the same volume?

With this cycle in mind, Papp's process might work if it somehow causes a rapid 
increase in the number of gas particles present when the piston is near the top 
dead center point.  The temperature of the gas would likely rise at that time 
due to the increased compression.  But, if good insulation is present to keep 
the heat loss to a low value, the gas would certainly apply additional force to 
the piston rod as it expands outwards.  Additional mechanical work beyond that 
required to complete the original cycle without the Papp process would be 
generated.  As before, expansion would cause the gas temperature to fall 
significantly as the piston continues its outward motion.

If the timing were fortunate, the gas would return to its original number of 
particles.  In that case the gas could nearly recover to its initial state to 
begin another cycle.  The input energy pulse would effectively be converted 
into mechanical work at a high efficiency.  I have a suspicion that this cycle 
would violate at least one of the thermodynamic laws.

Does my thought cycle match what you guys are thinking?  It is quite similar to 
the normal gasoline engine in operation except that the number of particles of 
the working gas increase instead of just their temperature when external energy 
is added.  Could this occur in a real world engine?  If so, Papp might actually 
have produced a working device.

We need a better understanding of exactly what happens to a gas which undergoes 
a rapid increased to particle numbers followed by a return to it initial 
composition in this type of environment.

Dave
 
 
-Original Message-
From: Eric Walker 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Tue, Oct 13, 2015 10:38 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes




On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Bob Higgins  wrote:


It seems like a reciprocating Papp engine would need to have a cyclic 
pressurization, not something the continually increases pressure as you are 
describing.  I thought the reported mechanism had a way to catalyze pressure 
increase electrically and then the pressure returned to the prior lower 
pressure state.  From this cyclic pressure, mechanical energy was extracted.




Your understanding is the same as mine.  My hope was that the induced alpha 
decay would only ionize the noble gas and not increase the temperature of the 
system significantly.  If the temperature of the system did increase beyond a 
certain point, I assume you'd get problems.  Regardless, I imagine that there 
would be a gradual buildup of heat and that you'd have to manage it.


Interesting speculation:  when Feynman pulled the power chord on the engine and 
it continued to run, what he disabled was a coolant system.


Eric

Re: [Vo]:LENR - who needs it?

[mixent]

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Tue, 13 Oct 2015 08:42:43 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>Most of this came out in 2004, but somehow has been ignored by LENR 
>proponents, not to mention the mainstream of physics. Maybe that oversight is 
>because of one implication, which can be interpreted as this: 
>
>LENR –who needs it? :-)

Well that is certainly Mills' credo. :)
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[mixent]

In reply to  David Roberson's message of Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:58:14 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>
>I agree with what you guys are saying about some form of cyclic pressure 
>function.   Of course I can imagine that a significant temperature pulse might 
>be present when the piston is near its maximum compression point.  The 
>following expansion inside the cylinder should allow the gas temperature to 
>fall as the piston extracts mechanical energy during the time that the volume 
>of gas increases.
>
>For a thought experiment lets assume that we have a long cylinder with a 
>piston driving a mechanical load.  Inside the cylinder is a certain volume of 
>gas particles at atmospheric temperature and pressure.  If we were to push the 
>piston inwards the gas would compress and get hotter as mechanical work is 
>delivered to it.  I believe that this is a reversible process provided that no 
>heat is allowed to escape from the compressed gas.  So, if we allowed the 
>piston to pass through top dead center, it would then perform mechanical work 
>on its load equal to what we inputted as it returns to the original location.  
>Is it safe to assume that the gas would return to its original state where it 
>is at room temperature and pressure and occupies the same volume?
>
>With this cycle in mind, Papp's process might work if it somehow causes a 
>rapid increase in the number of gas particles present when the piston is near 
>the top dead center point.  The temperature of the gas would likely rise at 
>that time due to the increased compression.  But, if good insulation is 
>present to keep the heat loss to a low value, the gas would certainly apply 
>additional force to the piston rod as it expands outwards.  Additional 
>mechanical work beyond that required to complete the original cycle without 
>the Papp process would be generated.  As before, expansion would cause the gas 
>temperature to fall significantly as the piston continues its outward motion.
>
>If the timing were fortunate, the gas would return to its original number of 
>particles.  

Plasma recombination will release a lot of heat (multiple eV / atom - probably
several times normal chemical reaction energy on average). The pressure increase
as a consequence of this heat is likely to far outweigh the doubling of pressure
due to ionization. (I haven't run the numbers, so I could well be wrong here.)
Consequently, I would guess that the whole ionization-recombination process
happens near TDC, and is responsible for the primary pressure pulse in the
engine.

>In that case the gas could nearly recover to its initial state to begin 
>another cycle.  The input energy pulse would effectively be converted into 
>mechanical work at a high efficiency.  I have a suspicion that this cycle 
>would violate at least one of the thermodynamic laws.
>
>Does my thought cycle match what you guys are thinking?  It is quite similar 
>to the normal gasoline engine in operation except that the number of particles 
>of the working gas increase instead of just their temperature when external 
>energy is added.  

Due to breakup of medium to large hydrocarbon molecules in a gasoline engine,
the number of particles increases there too. Also, formation of water molecules
results in a single O2 molecule becoming two water molecules. 

Typical reaction:-

2C8H18 (octane) +  25O2   => 16CO2 + 18H2O

2 + 25 => 34

>Could this occur in a real world engine?  If so, Papp might actually have 
>produced a working device.

Stirling engines don't have an exhaust either do they?
>
>We need a better understanding of exactly what happens to a gas which 
>undergoes a rapid increased to particle numbers followed by a return to it 
>initial composition in this type of environment.

Agreed.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

[Vo]:Strongly recommend this video about population and energy

[Jed Rothwell]

See:

"DON'T PANIC — Hans Rosling showing the facts about population"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FACK2knC08E

This video demolishes many common misunderstandings about world population
growth, fertility, and the situation in the third world. Things are
probably better than you think.

The discussion of energy starts around minute 51, but I recommend you see
the rest of the video. This discussion of energy shows how vitally
important cold fusion will be if we can make it work.

I am adding Japanese subtitles to this video, in crowd sourced volunteer
effort.


If you do not have time to see this, here is a short similar video, which
does not mention energy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwII-dwh-bk

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[mixent]

In reply to  Bob Higgins's message of Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:18:46 -0600:
Hi,
Energy is released as the condensate forms. In order to get it to return to a
normal gas, you should need to put the same amount of energy back in again.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

[Vo]:MUONS

[Mark Goldes]

http://phys.org/news/2015-10-particle-purely-nuclear.html


Mark Goldes
Chairman, CEO, AESOP Energy LLC

707 861-9070

AESOP Institute website: www.aesopinstitute.org

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Bob Higgins]

I don't recall that Holmlid described the formation of the dense hydrogen
as an extremely exothermic process.  As I recall it described, H2 was
simply catalyzed and flowed onto the surface where the ultra-dense hydrogen
film spontaneously formed.  Also, it doesn't make sense that this extremely
compacted form of hydrogen is so stable that it takes a huge energy to
disrupt the condensate.  As you seem to be describing it, it would be so
stable you could scrape it off of the surface and make it into a ball
without changing its density; and to to get it to change from its
ultra-high-density state you would need to supply a great deal of energy.
As I see it, this is an extremely fragile condensate, on the edge of
reverting to gas.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 3:38 PM,  wrote:

> In reply to  Bob Higgins's message of Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:18:46 -0600:
> Hi,
> Energy is released as the condensate forms. In order to get it to return
> to a
> normal gas, you should need to put the same amount of energy back in again.
> [snip]
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
>
>

RE: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Jones Beene]

-Original Message-
From: mix...@bigpond.com 

In reply to  Bob Higgins's message:

> Energy is released as the condensate forms. In order to get it to return
to a normal gas, you should need to put the same amount of energy back in
again.


You seem to be conflating Holmlid with CQM, Robin. 

True - UV energy is released on shrinkage in Mills' understanding - but
Holmlid sees this differently. For Holmlid, the condensed species give up
energy on reinflation and there are no intermediate steps involved.

Since Bob was premising his idea on Holmlid, we should not conflate the two
theories - as similar as they first appear, since they are the contradictory
on several important details. For Holmlid the ultradense form occurs in one
step and its chemical binding energy is only in the range of -50 eV maximum.

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[David Roberson]

If I understand you correctly, the process you speculate upon is quite similar 
to a normal ICE without an exhaust port.  Heat is introduced into the working 
gas from the energy emitted by the alpha emitter.  That heat causes an increase 
in the gas pressure that occurs due to the normal compression of the piston 
within the cylinder.  Next, the piston is pushed outward to do mechanical work 
which is greater than the work required to compress that piston at the 
beginning of the cycle.

This type of cycle should work provided there is a cooling method that extracts 
the left over heat that is present at the end of the piston movement.  
Otherwise it seems that the system would continue to heat up.  Maybe that is 
what happened to Papp's engine during that dangerous explosion event!

It seems logical that the radiation energy required from the alpha source 
should add up to the mechanical energy extracted from the piston movement plus 
the heat absorbed by the cooling system that allows the device to operate.


Dave
 

 

-Original Message-
From: Eric Walker 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Tue, Oct 13, 2015 6:28 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes




On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:58 PM, David Roberson  wrote:


We need a better understanding of exactly what happens to a gas which undergoes 
a rapid increased to particle numbers followed by a return to it initial 
composition in this type of environment.





I was thinking in terms of an "adiabatic" system.  Imagine the system is 
completely isolated from the external environment, and that there are 
reflective walls in the containment that reflect any radiated energy back to 
the engine.  Here we have a closed system.


In this case, it seems like the release of energy of the alpha emitter is 
efficiently transmitted into mechanical energy by way of the expanding ionized 
gas.  Any increase in temperature as the gas recondenses will be smaller than 
the initial energy released by the alpha emitter when the decay was induced, as 
some of it will go to heating the motor.  It is here that Robin's question 
becomes interesting (assuming I've understood it).  If we work backwards from 
the work needed to move the piston through a cycle, we can ask, how much 
induced alpha activity is needed in order to provide the work for a full cycle, 
and how much alpha emitter would that imply?  Is the scenario even realistic?


Eric

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[David Roberson]

Jones,

I have not been following the work of Holmlid closely.  Do I understand you 
correctly that he calculates it actually takes energy to cause the hydrogen to 
become compacted?  That reminds me of a balloon where you have to squeeze it to 
make it smaller.  

Of course this is 180 degrees out of phase with what Mills seems to believe.  
Only one of these possibilities can be correct.  Actually, neither could be 
accurate since no one has proved that hydrogen can actually shrink.

Dave

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Jones Beene 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Tue, Oct 13, 2015 8:02 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes



Bob,
 
The ultradense species could be too problematic to manufacture in situ 
especially in an automobile where weight is a concern. And really, if the 
chemical energy is high, there is no need to look beyond it. 
 
Apparently the rate of production is low in terms of mass of IRH per unit of 
catalyst per unit of time. This is basically 2D chemistry.
 
For instance, if one ton of catalyst produces 10 grams of IRH per hour – this 
is not going to work for onboard automotive uses - but could still be 
economically made in a factory, since the catalyst is cheap – basically 
glorified iron ore. 
 
BTW – isn’t it true that Rossi has admitted that his fuel must be “prepared” 
ahead of time, which could mean that he too is densifying hydrogen, prior to 
loading? He may not realize it, but in the process of treating his nickel, AR 
could be loading it with IRH.
 
Anyway - here is a slight variation on what you are suggesting. If Holmlid is 
correct on the 10x chemical energy of the species, it probably makes more sense 
to manufacture it in a dedicated facility, and convert the ICE to burn it as if 
it was hydrogen – even mixing it with hydrogen, so it ignites easier. 
 
One big (HUGE) difference of Holmlid from Mills’ concept is that the excess 
energy is not seen when the species is made (Mills’ claim) – but is seen when 
the condensed hydrogen is reinflated back to hydrogen (or reacted in a nuclear 
reaction).
 
Even if far more energy is available in a nuclear pathway, that could be too 
complicated and unreliable for the highway, and especially if there are 
accumulated transmutation products. When everything is considered, it might be 
more cost effective to provide the simple and more robust chemical energy of 
IRH only.
 
Because the chemical binding energy of IRH is about 50 eV according to Holmlid, 
it would be hard to ignite but could be mixed with H2 for that purpose. 
 
From: Bob Higgins 
 

It would be interesting to consider, the use of a Holmlid condensation of 
hydrogen in conjunction with a mechanical engine.  Suppose we had initially an 
empty piston and cylinder with the piston at top dead center and having a 
surface designed to support a Holmlid dense hydrogen film.  The intake port 
opens and the port has a Holmlid catalyst.  As the piston falls, hydrogen is 
drawn through the intake port and through the hydrogen catalyst to draw 
hydrogen prepared to form an ultra-dense layer into the cylinder.  The 
ultra-dense hydrogen layer forms on the piston top while it cycles down and 
back up.  As the piston reaches TDC, an electrical discharge occurs causing the 
condensate to fail and be released as H1 and H2 gas - at a much larger volume.  
The sudden high pressure forces the piston down and the the flywheel keeps it 
headed back up.  The exhaust port opens up and the H2 gas is pushed out easily 
(perhaps into a reservoir).  At TDC, the exhaust port closes and the intake 
port opens to admit more catalyzed hydrogen to form a new ultra-dense hydrogen 
layer on the piston.

 

The cycle is making the ultra-dense hydrogen layer and then triggering its 
expansion into ordinary hydrogen gas - a huge expansion.

 

Bob Higgins


 
 

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[David Roberson]

>Due to breakup of medium to large hydrocarbon
molecules in a gasoline engine,
the number of particles increases there too.
Also, formation of water molecules
results in a single O2 molecule becoming two
water molecules. 

Typical reaction:-

2C8H18 (octane) +  25O2   => 16CO2 +
18H2O

2 + 25 => 34<


Robin thanks for posting the reaction taking place in a typical gasoline 
engine.  I realized that a small increase to the total number of molecules 
would occur, but if you consider that most of the gas molecules within the 
system are nitrogen, then that increase is not overly significant.   I 
guesstimate the total increase is less than 10% when burning the fuel.  With 
the Papp process I am suspecting more like a 100 % change...is that too 
optimistic?



>Stirling engines don't have an
exhaust either do they?<
That is a good point.   In a normal ICE a large amount of heat escapes the 
system along with the exhaust.  The Papp device does not seem to suffer that 
loss from what I understand.  But, always keep in mind that the Papp engine 
might not be real.  F9!  :-)

Dave

 

-Original Message-
From: mixent 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Tue, Oct 13, 2015 5:16 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes


...snip
Plasma recombination will release a lot of heat
(multiple eV / atom - probably
several times normal chemical reaction energy on
average). The pressure increase
as a consequence of this heat is likely to far
outweigh the doubling of pressure
due to ionization. (I haven't run the
numbers, so I could well be wrong here.)
Consequently, I would guess that the
whole ionization-recombination process
happens near TDC, and is responsible for
the primary pressure pulse in the
engine.
...snip

Interesting Dave

 Regards,

Robin van
Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html


 

RE: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Jones Beene]

Bob,

 

The ultradense species could be too problematic to manufacture in situ 
especially in an automobile where weight is a concern. And really, if the 
chemical energy is high, there is no need to look beyond it. 

 

Apparently the rate of production is low in terms of mass of IRH per unit of 
catalyst per unit of time. This is basically 2D chemistry.

 

For instance, if one ton of catalyst produces 10 grams of IRH per hour – this 
is not going to work for onboard automotive uses - but could still be 
economically made in a factory, since the catalyst is cheap – basically 
glorified iron ore. 

 

BTW – isn’t it true that Rossi has admitted that his fuel must be “prepared” 
ahead of time, which could mean that he too is densifying hydrogen, prior to 
loading? He may not realize it, but in the process of treating his nickel, AR 
could be loading it with IRH.

 

Anyway - here is a slight variation on what you are suggesting. If Holmlid is 
correct on the 10x chemical energy of the species, it probably makes more sense 
to manufacture it in a dedicated facility, and convert the ICE to burn it as if 
it was hydrogen – even mixing it with hydrogen, so it ignites easier. 

 

One big (HUGE) difference of Holmlid from Mills’ concept is that the excess 
energy is not seen when the species is made (Mills’ claim) – but is seen when 
the condensed hydrogen is reinflated back to hydrogen (or reacted in a nuclear 
reaction).

 

Even if far more energy is available in a nuclear pathway, that could be too 
complicated and unreliable for the highway, and especially if there are 
accumulated transmutation products. When everything is considered, it might be 
more cost effective to provide the simple and more robust chemical energy of 
IRH only.

 

Because the chemical binding energy of IRH is about 50 eV according to Holmlid, 
it would be hard to ignite but could be mixed with H2 for that purpose. 

 

From: Bob Higgins 

 

It would be interesting to consider, the use of a Holmlid condensation of 
hydrogen in conjunction with a mechanical engine.  Suppose we had initially an 
empty piston and cylinder with the piston at top dead center and having a 
surface designed to support a Holmlid dense hydrogen film.  The intake port 
opens and the port has a Holmlid catalyst.  As the piston falls, hydrogen is 
drawn through the intake port and through the hydrogen catalyst to draw 
hydrogen prepared to form an ultra-dense layer into the cylinder.  The 
ultra-dense hydrogen layer forms on the piston top while it cycles down and 
back up.  As the piston reaches TDC, an electrical discharge occurs causing the 
condensate to fail and be released as H1 and H2 gas - at a much larger volume.  
The sudden high pressure forces the piston down and the the flywheel keeps it 
headed back up.  The exhaust port opens up and the H2 gas is pushed out easily 
(perhaps into a reservoir).  At TDC, the exhaust port closes and the intake 
port opens to admit more catalyzed hydrogen to form a new ultra-dense hydrogen 
layer on the piston.

 

The cycle is making the ultra-dense hydrogen layer and then triggering its 
expansion into ordinary hydrogen gas - a huge expansion.

 

Bob Higgins

 

 

RE: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Jones Beene]

One more arcane point on this apparent conflict between Mills and Holmlid:

For Holmlid the ultradense species occurs in one step and its chemical
binding energy is in the range of -50 eV maximum.

If we go back 20 years to Thermacore, and some of the most convincing work
ever done in LENR, there is one test that has always troubled me. Thermacore
had nickel capillary tubes tested at Lehigh University following a very long
run with hydrogen. They were using some kind of spectral line fluorescence
testing.

What appeared was a very strong UV emission peak at 50 eV. Mills had never
been able to show strong peaks like this and he never commented on
Thermacore's finding. Plus, the UV peak showed up in what was essentially
ash - not as a product of shrinkage. Nevertheless, Thermacore said it was
proof of the 54.4 eV line, even though it clearly was over 4 eV lower and
was not a product of shrinkage but instead a product in the leftover nickel.

This is all from memory but in retrospect, what Lehigh found in the used
capillary tubes could have been evidence of Holmlid's dense hydrogen - as it
reinflated !

Jones

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Eric Walker]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:58 PM, David Roberson  wrote:

We need a better understanding of exactly what happens to a gas which
> undergoes a rapid increased to particle numbers followed by a return to it
> initial composition in this type of environment.
>

I was thinking in terms of an "adiabatic" system.  Imagine the system is
completely isolated from the external environment, and that there are
reflective walls in the containment that reflect any radiated energy back
to the engine.  Here we have a closed system.

In this case, it seems like the release of energy of the alpha emitter is
efficiently transmitted into mechanical energy by way of the expanding
ionized gas.  Any increase in temperature as the gas recondenses will be
smaller than the initial energy released by the alpha emitter when the
decay was induced, as some of it will go to heating the motor.  It is here
that Robin's question becomes interesting (assuming I've understood it).
If we work backwards from the work needed to move the piston through a
cycle, we can ask, how much induced alpha activity is needed in order to
provide the work for a full cycle, and how much alpha emitter would that
imply?  Is the scenario even realistic?

Eric

RE: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Jones Beene]

Dave,

 

I haven’t seen any calculation for the energy to densify. He does say it takes 
only pressure, time and moderate temperature. Unlike Mills, Holmlid is not 
secretive and is open to outside contact and these questions will be asked.

 

As you say, Holmlid and Mills cannot both be correct. 

 

From: David Roberson 

 

I have not been following the work of Holmlid closely.  Do I understand you 
correctly that he calculates it actually takes energy to cause the hydrogen to 
become compacted?  That reminds me of a balloon where you have to squeeze it to 
make it smaller.  

Of course this is 180 degrees out of phase with what Mills seems to believe.  
Only one of these possibilities can be correct.  Actually, neither could be 
accurate since no one has proved that hydrogen can actually shrink.

Dave

 

 

 

 

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[mixent]

In reply to  Bob Higgins's message of Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:59:50 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]
>
In that case you wouldn't get much back when it "exploded" either would you?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Strongly recommend this video about population and energy

[Lennart Thornros]

Hello Jed,
Nice accent.
Yes, I think he is right.
He obviously have not understood that Rossi now is establishing factories
(within a year) to build LENR.
Joke aside - I think that things happen because there is a demand.
The population growth is solved, the distribution is on its way - LENR
needs to knock on the door. I think it does just not so sure if it is
Rossi, Holmlid or an unknown who will get first to market.
I would bet on the unknown. Is there a bookmaker in the group?:)

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> See:
>
> "DON'T PANIC — Hans Rosling showing the facts about population"
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FACK2knC08E
>
> This video demolishes many common misunderstandings about world population
> growth, fertility, and the situation in the third world. Things are
> probably better than you think.
>
> The discussion of energy starts around minute 51, but I recommend you see
> the rest of the video. This discussion of energy shows how vitally
> important cold fusion will be if we can make it work.
>
> I am adding Japanese subtitles to this video, in crowd sourced volunteer
> effort.
>
>
> If you do not have time to see this, here is a short similar video, which
> does not mention energy:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwII-dwh-bk
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[mixent]

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:13:20 -0700:
Hi Jones,
[snip]
>-Original Message-
>From: mix...@bigpond.com 
>
>In reply to  Bob Higgins's message:
>
>> Energy is released as the condensate forms. In order to get it to return
>to a normal gas, you should need to put the same amount of energy back in
>again.
>
>
>You seem to be conflating Holmlid with CQM, Robin. 

Actually I was conflating it with IRH. Regardless, if one wants to get energy
from somewhere, then an explanation of the source of that energy needs to be
found.

If 50 eV UV is released from the "ash", then 50 eV must have gone into it's
creation.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

RE: [Vo]:Strongly recommend this video about population and energy

[Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson]

Thanks Jed,

 

Watched it all. It was worth it. It is rare to take in a lecture given by a 
statistician who is not only informative but entertaining and funny as well.

 

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson

OrionWorks.com

zazzle.com/orionworks

 

> "DON'T PANIC — Hans Rosling showing the facts about population"

> 

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FACK2knC08E

...

> If you do not have time to see this, here is a short similar video, which 
> does not mention energy:

> 

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwII-dwh-bk

 

Re: [Vo]:Strongly recommend this video about population and energy

[Jed Rothwell]

This video is relevant to this group because --

It shows why cold fusion energy is important, how much it can do, and
finally how likely it is to be used. The last question is not directly
addressed but you can interpolate. The video demonstrates that people are
not stupid and poor people are good at helping themselves and surviving.
Look at how well people world-wide have already made use of technology that
in 1963 many said they would never embrace, such as contraceptives. Look at
how much progress we have made since 1963! For example, the population
explosion is over, for the reasons described by Rosling. (Even scientists
and engineers often fail to understand these reasons, which is disgraceful.)

People who say our situation is hopeless may call themselves themselves
skeptical realists, but I say they are blinded by preconceived ideas and an
ahistoric, unrealistic, unfounded pessimism. As Rosling says:

"The problem here is not lack of knowledge, it is preconceived ideas."


None of this is new, by the way. My late mother was a researcher at the
Census Bureau. In the 1960s she described how the population explosion can
be stopped with three things: better healthcare leading to lower infant
mortality, contraceptives, and education for women. As Rosling shows, she
was exactly right.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[mixent]

In reply to  David Roberson's message of Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:38:25 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>
>>Due to breakup of medium to large hydrocarbon
>molecules in a gasoline engine,
>the number of particles increases there too.
>Also, formation of water molecules
>results in a single O2 molecule becoming two
>water molecules. 
>
>Typical reaction:-
>
>2C8H18 (octane) +  25O2   => 16CO2 +
>18H2O
>
>2 + 25 => 34<
>
>
>Robin thanks for posting the reaction taking place in a typical gasoline 
>engine.  I realized that a small increase to the total number of molecules 
>would occur, but if you consider that most of the gas molecules within the 
>system are nitrogen, then that increase is not overly significant.   

Agreed.

>I guesstimate the total increase is less than 10% when burning the fuel.  With 
>the Papp process I am suspecting more like a 100 % change...is that too 
>optimistic?

I suspect so. I doubt that all the atoms are going to be ionized at once, though
some would lose more than one electron.


>
>
>
>>Stirling engines don't have an
>exhaust either do they?<
>That is a good point.   In a normal ICE a large amount of heat escapes the 
>system along with the exhaust.  The Papp device does not seem to suffer that 
>loss from what I understand.  But, always keep in mind that the Papp engine 
>might not be real.  F9!  :-)

..so Feynman pulled the plug on a non-existent engine, that then can't possibly
have exploded (because it didn't exist), and hence there was no ensuing court
case? ;)

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Electron-mediated alpha decay in quasi-stable isotopes

[Eric Walker]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:42 PM,  wrote:

..so Feynman pulled the plug on a non-existent engine, that then can't
> possibly
> have exploded (because it didn't exist), and hence there was no ensuing
> court
> case? ;)
>

I think the question that history will be the judge of is whether it was a
/noble gas/ engine.

Eric