Re: [Vo]:Dense hydrogen may facilitate water splitting

[Jürg Wyttenbach]

UDH/Hydrino!

There is only one nature and thus one physics. Mills created the 
name/concept Hydrino to circumvent the Santilli Patent. The precision of 
any Hydrino calculation is at best 1% as in all standard model guesses 
that are potential only models.


The SO(4) version of H*/D* is in very good agreement (495.8eV e bond as 
measured ) with hihly reliable Mills measurement of H*-H*. Holmlids UDH 
measurements are not precise and may be off by more than 30% due to 
cluster effects.


Further the SO(4) model explains the electron potential measured in:

Emission of highly excited electronic states of potassium from 
cryptomelane nanorods


P. Stelmachowski,a P. Legutko T. Jakubek P. Indyk a Z. Sojk a L. Holmlid 
b and A. Kotarb a, PHYSICAL CHEMISTRY CHEMICAL PHYSICS · SEPTEMBER 2015



This paper shows exactly how SO(4) spin matter behaves. The current name 
is Rydberg matter but effectively there are two forms. Normal Rydberg 
matter is just based on SO(4) electron-electron spin coupling - an SC 
effect, where as the induction of H*-H* leads to a change in the p-e 
potential that even can be seen at 500C. This is the best proof why LENR 
also at T > 500C works as it is based on the the only deep orbit 
Hydrogen that has a sound physical model.


Holmlid still references the Winterberg model for UDH, which is based on 
2 fringe assumptions .. but still fewer than SM...


J.W.


Am 23.12.19 um 18:14 schrieb bobcook39...@hotmail.com:


Jones—

An environment with lots of neutrino and positrons may be required for 
nucleon production, since these primary entities are apparently 
 needed in nucleons for stability.  I think their magnetic dipoles are 
key attractive forces to facilitate the necessary stability.


Bob Cook

Bob Cook

*From: *Andrew Meulenberg 
*Sent: *Monday, December 23, 2019 7:21 AM
*To: *VORTEX 
*Subject: *Re: [Vo]:Dense hydrogen may facilitate water splitting

Jones,

You have raised an interesting point. In comparing the sub-atom-sized 
hydrino with the nuclear-sized femto-H, we might see growth (to a 
steady-state) of "compact" molecules and of heavier nuclei (via 
nucleo-synthesis) in a non-stellar environment. I think that there is 
room for both species to exist and to "hide" in the terrestrial 
environment.


Andrew

On Mon, Dec 23, 2019 at 9:32 AM JonesBeene > wrote:


Sent from Mail 
for Windows 10

*From: *Andrew Meulenberg 

  * I am presently writing a paper on the transition from a
femto-H atom to a neutron (as a proton with an occupied
deeper-electron orbit), so my responding to your comments has
been useful in my thinking. Thank you.

Andrew

Another related topic to this is the ubiquitous nature of
hydronium, and whether dense hydrogen can be a natural component
of our oceans..

At any given moment in all the worlds oceans, water is technically
not H2O but instead  consists of a known percentage of hydronium,
even though the pH of the ocean itself is alkaline. This should
not be possible in theory since the alkalinity should cancel out
the positive charge immediately.

One wonders if Mills conception of “hydrino hydride” or a version
of it - would explain this situation since hydronium in the form
of a stable anion would be both dense and charged with greater
than expected lifetime as an ion in solution. This also offers and
explanation of where all the hydrinos (which are made in the solar
corona and transported to earth via the solar wind) accumulate.

Jones



--
Jürg Wyttenbach
Bifangstr.22
8910 Affoltern a.A.
044 760 14 18
079 246 36 06

Re: [Vo]:Dense hydrogen may facilitate water splitting

[Jones Beene]

 The possibility of harvesting dense solar hydrogen - formed in the corona of 
the sun and carried to earth by solar wind - in significant quantities, and 
then deposited in the oceans - would be worth a closer look. 

Even if the concentration in the oceans was was parts per billion - magnetic 
harvesting could possibly be used to collect dense hydrogen as a cheap and 
renewable option for a transportation fuel. 

Sounds like science fiction, no doubt, but not ruled out by experiment AFAIK ,..


Andrew Meulenberg wrote:  

> In comparing the sub-atom-sized hydrino with the nuclear-sized femto-H, we 
> might see growth (to a steady-state) of "compact" molecules and of heavier 
> nuclei (via nucleo-synthesis) in a non-stellar environment. I think that 
> there is room for both species to exist and to "hide" in the terrestrial 
> environment.

  

RE: [Vo]:Dense hydrogen may facilitate water splitting

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

Jones—

An environment with lots of neutrino and positrons may be required for nucleon 
production, since these primary entities are apparently  needed in nucleons for 
stability.  I think their magnetic dipoles are key attractive forces to 
facilitate the necessary stability.

Bob Cook

Bob Cook


From: Andrew Meulenberg
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2019 7:21 AM
To: VORTEX
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Dense hydrogen may facilitate water splitting

Jones,

You have raised an interesting point. In comparing the sub-atom-sized hydrino 
with the nuclear-sized femto-H, we might see growth (to a steady-state) of 
"compact" molecules and of heavier nuclei (via nucleo-synthesis) in a 
non-stellar environment. I think that there is room for both species to exist 
and to "hide" in the terrestrial environment.

Andrew

On Mon, Dec 23, 2019 at 9:32 AM JonesBeene 
mailto:jone...@pacbell.net>> wrote:


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Andrew Meulenberg


  *   I am presently writing a paper on the transition from a femto-H atom to a 
neutron (as a proton with an occupied deeper-electron orbit), so my responding 
to your comments has been useful in my thinking. Thank you.

Andrew

Another related topic to this is the ubiquitous nature of hydronium, and 
whether dense hydrogen can be a natural component of our oceans..

At any given moment in all the worlds oceans, water is technically not H2O but 
instead  consists of a known percentage of hydronium, even though the pH of the 
ocean itself is alkaline. This should not be possible in theory since the 
alkalinity should cancel out the positive charge immediately.

One wonders if Mills conception of “hydrino hydride” or a version of it - would 
explain this situation since hydronium in the form of a stable anion would be 
both dense and charged with greater than expected lifetime as an ion in 
solution. This also offers and explanation of where all the hydrinos (which are 
made in the solar corona and transported to earth via the solar wind) 
accumulate.

Jones

RE: [Vo]:Dense hydrogen may facilitate water splitting

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

Andrew—

Thanks for that update on the ICCF-21 paper you and Jean-Luc prepared.

Several thoughts are renewed by my review of that paper—some physics, and some 
intellectual process:


  1.  Artificial intelligence (AI)  is like the rapid evaluation of ideas 
collected  form a large group of individuals and checked with respect to 
available physical models and their mathematical description for validation.  
The data base of available physical models (particularly the non-popular ones) 
is the key to good AI.

The “IQ” of group intelligence depends upon this same process as AI uses, 
TURTLE—slow but sure.  (Democracy applies the IQ of the society to desirable  
LAWS for social modeling.)

  1.  If one relativistic electron can happen, why cannot more exist, ea., 2 or 
all  atomic electrons? (It may take some additional positrons and neutrinos to 
keep that many electrons together, as in a nucleon.)
  2.  Do we need math model that does not predict a singularity at zero.  I.e., 
one that allows time and space to be quantized dimensions or maybe a function 
of volume of 3 space dimensions?  I discussed this question with an old 
mathematician at a recent party (still within my memory) and he suggested the 
Dirac delta function was close to this suggestion; for reasons he did not 
understand, the math community did not pickup on Dirac’s idea. I WONDER WHY?

Bob Cook





From: Andrew Meulenberg
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2019 5:47 AM
To: VORTEX
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Dense hydrogen may facilitate water splitting

Bob,

Since I have been working on the deep-electron orbit model and its consequences 
(e.g., femto-H and femto-molecules) for the last decade, most of your questions 
have already been answered (see the links below - from ICCF-21- and the 
references therein).
http://coldfusioncommunity.net/pdf/jcmns/v29/353_JCMNS-Vol29.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6zQXb-L7L8=136s

Your suggestion about dense water is clearly an interesting extension of this 
work. However, the dense water would be only marginally denser since the 
molecule formed with femto-H and 16O could act as a 18O halo nuclide (not yet 
found, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_nucleus). The fact that 17O and 
18O are stable nuclei means that either halo nucleus (femto-molecules) is less 
stable than the heavier isotopes.

A study of the individual halo nuclides and their decay modes (e.g., 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_boron#Boron-19 vs 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_boron#Boron-8) can give information 
about the nature of the femto-molecular bond formed between the femto-H and a 
heavier nucleus.

I am presently writing a paper on the transition from a femto-H atom to a 
neutron (as a proton with an occupied deeper-electron orbit), so my responding 
to your comments has been useful in my thinking. Thank you.

Andrew

On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 8:11 PM 
bobcook39...@hotmail.com 
mailto:bobcook39...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
Dense hydrogen may react with some other elements to form useful dense 
compounds—maybe dense water.  That may be a problem for biological systems, 
however.  However it may be a good heat transfer medium with a high boiling 
point and a high triple point above that for light water.

In the mid 60’s I remember an incident of the identification of dense 
water—that was the term used by the physics folks I worked with then-- and I 
didn’t think it was fake news.  The subject went dark shortly thereafter.

If dense H can be accelerated by its magnetic moment—I assume it has one—then 
it may act more like a neutron at some energy and fuse at relatively low 
energies.  Dense D or T may even work to fuse at lower temperatures.

I wonder if Mills has done the calculations for a D-heavy—D-heavy fusion?  
T-heavy may not have a decay mode with the close valence electron keeping the 
extra nuclear electrons in tact.  (This assumes the structure of the T isotope 
includes many electrons and positrons as proposed by P. Hatt and validated by 
high energy electron scattering experiments, analyzed by W. Stubbs.

I assume he would call this duetrino fusion.  I would hope the temperature of a 
deutrino plasma would be high enough to avoid a run-away fusion reaction.

Bob Cook

From: Jones Beene
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2019 6:42 AM
To: vortex
Subject: [Vo]:Dense hydrogen may facilitate water splitting

This water fuel development and another one similar to it - does not mention 
"dense hydrogen" - only efficient water splitting.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-13415-8

This technique is claimed to be the most efficient electrolysis/ 
water-splitting cell yet discovered.

The catalyst used - a mix of iron oxide and nickel are both associated with 
dense hydrogen - either the Mills effect of the Holmlid effect.

Thus, there is a decent chance that in addition 

Re: [Vo]:Dense hydrogen may facilitate water splitting

[Andrew Meulenberg]

Jones,

You have raised an interesting point. In comparing the sub-atom-sized
hydrino with the nuclear-sized femto-H, we might see growth (to a
steady-state) of "compact" molecules and of heavier nuclei (via
nucleo-synthesis) in a non-stellar environment. I think that there is room
for both species to exist and to "hide" in the terrestrial environment.

Andrew

On Mon, Dec 23, 2019 at 9:32 AM JonesBeene  wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail  for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Andrew Meulenberg 
>
>
>
>- I am presently writing a paper on the transition from a femto-H atom
>to a neutron (as a proton with an occupied deeper-electron orbit), so my
>responding to your comments has been useful in my thinking. Thank you.
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> Another related topic to this is the ubiquitous nature of hydronium, and
> whether dense hydrogen can be a natural component of our oceans..
>
>
>
> At any given moment in all the worlds oceans, water is technically not H2O
> but instead  consists of a known percentage of hydronium, even though the
> pH of the ocean itself is alkaline. This should not be possible in theory
> since the alkalinity should cancel out the positive charge immediately.
>
>
>
> One wonders if Mills conception of “hydrino hydride” or a version of it -
> would explain this situation since hydronium in the form of a stable anion
> would be both dense and charged with greater than expected lifetime as an
> ion in solution. This also offers and explanation of where all the hydrinos
> (which are made in the solar corona and transported to earth via the solar
> wind) accumulate.
>
>
>
> Jones
>

RE: [Vo]:Dense hydrogen may facilitate water splitting

[JonesBeene]

Oops – a bit of dyslexia there – the hydrino  hydride would be negatively 
charged from the start -  and thus appearing alkaline while stable.

Heck…  maybe that explains the alkalinity of the oceans…

IOW – the negatively charged dense hydrogen from the solar corona causes large 
scale alkalinity as it reaches earth and collects in the ocean.

From: Andrew Meulenberg

➢ I am presently writing a paper on the transition from a femto-H atom to a 
neutron (as a proton with an occupied deeper-electron orbit), so my responding 
to your comments has been useful in my thinking. Thank you.

Andrew

Another related topic to this is the ubiquitous nature of hydronium, and 
whether dense hydrogen can be a natural component of our oceans.. 

At any given moment in all the worlds oceans, water is technically not H2O but 
instead  consists of a known percentage of hydronium, even though the pH of the 
ocean itself is alkaline. This should not be possible in theory since the 
alkalinity should cancel out the positive charge immediately.

One wonders if Mills conception of “hydrino hydride” or a version of it - would 
explain this situation since hydronium in the form of a stable anion would be 
both dense and charged with greater than expected lifetime as an ion in 
solution. This also offers and explanation of where all the hydrinos (which are 
made in the solar corona and transported to earth via the solar wind) 
accumulate.

Jones

RE: [Vo]:Dense hydrogen may facilitate water splitting

[JonesBeene]

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Andrew Meulenberg

➢ I am presently writing a paper on the transition from a femto-H atom to a 
neutron (as a proton with an occupied deeper-electron orbit), so my responding 
to your comments has been useful in my thinking. Thank you.

Andrew

Another related topic to this is the ubiquitous nature of hydronium, and 
whether dense hydrogen can be a natural component of our oceans.. 

At any given moment in all the worlds oceans, water is technically not H2O but 
instead  consists of a known percentage of hydronium, even though the pH of the 
ocean itself is alkaline. This should not be possible in theory since the 
alkalinity should cancel out the positive charge immediately.

One wonders if Mills conception of “hydrino hydride” or a version of it - would 
explain this situation since hydronium in the form of a stable anion would be 
both dense and charged with greater than expected lifetime as an ion in 
solution. This also offers and explanation of where all the hydrinos (which are 
made in the solar corona and transported to earth via the solar wind) 
accumulate.

Jones

Re: [Vo]:Dense hydrogen may facilitate water splitting

[Andrew Meulenberg]

 Bob,

Since I have been working on the deep-electron orbit model and its
consequences (e.g., femto-H and femto-molecules) for the last decade, most
of your questions have already been answered (see the links below - from
ICCF-21- and the references therein).
http://coldfusioncommunity.net/pdf/jcmns/v29/353_JCMNS-Vol29.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6zQXb-L7L8=136s

Your suggestion about dense water is clearly an interesting extension of
this work. However, the dense water would be only marginally denser since
the molecule formed with femto-H and 16O could act as a 18O halo nuclide
(not yet found, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_nucleus). The fact
that 17O and 18O are stable nuclei means that either halo nucleus
(femto-molecules) is less stable than the heavier isotopes.

A study of the individual halo nuclides and their decay modes (e.g.,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_boron#Boron-19 vs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_boron#Boron-8) can give
information about the nature of the femto-molecular bond formed between the
femto-H and a heavier nucleus.

I am presently writing a paper on the transition from a femto-H atom to a
neutron (as a proton with an occupied deeper-electron orbit), so my
responding to your comments has been useful in my thinking. Thank you.

Andrew

On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 8:11 PM bobcook39...@hotmail.com <
bobcook39...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Dense hydrogen may react with some other elements to form useful dense
> compounds—maybe dense water.  That may be a problem for biological systems,
> however.  However it may be a good heat transfer medium with a high boiling
> point and a high triple point above that for light water.
>
>
>
> In the mid 60’s I remember an incident of the identification of dense
> water—that was the term used by the physics folks I worked with then-- and
> I didn’t think it was fake news.  The subject went dark shortly
> thereafter.
>
>
>
> If dense H can be accelerated by its magnetic moment—I assume it has
> one—then it may act more like a neutron at some energy and fuse at
> relatively low energies.  Dense D or T may even work to fuse at lower
> temperatures.
>
>
>
> I wonder if Mills has done the calculations for a D-heavy—D-heavy fusion?
> T-heavy may not have a decay mode with the close valence electron keeping
> the extra nuclear electrons in tact.  (This assumes the structure of the T
> isotope includes many electrons and positrons as proposed by P. Hatt and
> validated by high energy electron scattering experiments, analyzed by W.
> Stubbs.
>
>
>
> I assume he would call this duetrino fusion.  I would hope the temperature
> of a deutrino plasma would be high enough to avoid a run-away fusion
> reaction.
>
>
>
> Bob Cook
>
>
>
> *From: *Jones Beene 
> *Sent: *Sunday, December 22, 2019 6:42 AM
> *To: *vortex 
> *Subject: *[Vo]:Dense hydrogen may facilitate water splitting
>
>
>
> This water fuel development and another one similar to it - does not
> mention "dense hydrogen" - only efficient water splitting.
>
>
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-13415-8
>
>
>
> This technique is claimed to be the most efficient electrolysis/
> water-splitting cell yet discovered.
>
>
>
> The catalyst used - a mix of iron oxide and nickel are both associated
> with dense hydrogen - either the Mills effect of the Holmlid effect.
>
>
>
> Thus, there is a decent chance that in addition to normal splitting water
> - this technique involves the densification of some of the H2 gas as it
> evolves. No attempt is made to collect it, of course, since the mainstream
> does not accept the findings of Mills or Holmlid, so using the output gas
> itself as secondary catalyst  or excess energy source - was not considered.
>
>
>
> Given the future importance of hydrogen - even migrating to a possible
> "hydrogen economy" in the future - additional catalysis or energy derived
> from utilizing dense hydrogen should be looked at closer (under the
> assumption that UDH is now only an incidental or unplanned part of the
> process and not optimized).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>