Re: [Vo]:first day in carbon capture
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com mounted the barricade and roared out: His actual assertion here seems to be that carbon capture is impractical and demanding it will, in practical terms, block use of the fuels for which it's required, and by so doing, cause economic damage to the United States. Solving this criticial global issue is a global problem. Not a parochial, national one. Think 'outside the box'. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkooNdEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EJbQCgykHpcJ+woyk6S286wfrJnc5W L3kAn1cUNQgmxcKScglXBjKv7O8zYQGD =PbFF -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:first day in carbon capture
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Balance? Science is not political. Reality and facts do NOT bend to political bias. Is that a troll? - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkooNwkACgkQXo3EtEYbt3ErmwCg3Uy65xBRD0ZzfPmzhci7sps3 B3sAn1PaqYs6FzBjVRqDzppt6dANgq5r =QzAP -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:first day in carbon capture
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Hum, it's almost summer here in the great northwest, why am I wearing this sweater? Oh yes, that's why they call it climate change. and here in arizona , we hit 9 days of over 100 in a row sooner than ever in recorded history. But it's a DRY heat. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkooOzIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GEZACfbl9sSrlpAzHGpwc74fhT44PY mP0An09qmB6qHDHdyFKyNTEhl8Cl/wZh =t9E8 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:biological transmutation
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, thomas malloy temall...@usfamily.net mounted the barricade and roared out: Joking aside, why is it that so many people refuse to face the fact that the main reason for our current economic problems is simple theft? The thieves managed to get the law (and the rules) changed so that they could not be prosecuted. Theft? The Arabs didn't force us to purchase their oil. If The Oligarchy did suppress viable F E technology, then they did something. Nothing they didn't do without the complete connivance of the U.S. ruling-class -- most especially the oil majors. And so *guess who* was ALSO making jillions of petrodollars, right alongside those feudal sheikh allies of -- the U.S.A...? You're simply demonstrating how easily you've been dis-directed by those who actually run the U.S. Who sure aren't 'We the People'. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoomW8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E9owCfVlQ8D29rfa/ApYqSjjRNN1WJ qhcAnR7QPVLiwIPZwTJC4DW3/7K+MG9x =0cNF -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:H. G. Wells describes our predicament in 1913
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: . . . Everywhere there were obsolete organisations seizing upon all the new fine things that science was giving to the world, nationalities, all sorts of political bodies, the churches and sects, proprietorship, seizing upon those treat powers and limitless possibilities and turning them to evil uses. And they would not suffer open speech, they would not permit of education, they would let no one be educated to the needs of the new time You who are younger cannot imagine the mixture of desperate hope and protesting despair in which we who could believe in the possibilities of science lived in those years before atomic energy came For this, Wells could be labelled communist -- as would anybody advocating, or even simply predicting, major social upheaval such as this. Which would include the inhabitants of Vortexia as well, BTW... However, Wells' actual Fabian roots show thru in his The Shape of Things to Come. Especially in the movie version (not his fault, wot). - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoiz4MACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Eq3QCg0GlzTJoLq9oJRgLPUoIxniXh PZAAn1f9kedsKghWajxdqtwYrZuctcSC =aA7D -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Zitter and ZPE
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net mounted the barricade and roared out: It seems to me also true the probability of mating itself may change due to mutations, and this is a form of of natural selection. The gradual development of an appearance change amongst a sub-population of a species could gradually isolate that group genetically, even though it is not isolated geographically. The classic example of this being an ongoing fact all at once in the Here and Now, is with ring species: http://bio.research.ucsc.edu/~barrylab/classes/animal_behavior/SPECIATE.HTM I'll bet you don't get THAT gene meme in the Bible. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoi4NYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GLVwCg7SHbxK3WAvMf7waCC8Rgs1bB 8eUAoJDAhnpDd1Qm96YgzV1yxNfnPSwK =cIdl -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Roswell Debris Confirmed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Oh, and BTW, you can't use the word collective in Vortex. That is for VortexB only. We are the Vortex. Resistance is Futile. You will be educated. Assimilate THIS. Where do I go for my implants, already..? - -- grok. a.k.a. 1 of a-kind. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkogb8AACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FFJgCgj1PDDyjuH7QHWeEH5ESc6cgR OuwAoOqNDiw0JrZaev6d5OenCKN+r1Ms =4ekf -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Superelastic metals LENR cathode material prospects?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The best diffusion rate is likely obtained using a thin film, which coincidentally is exactly what was found at Roswell. It wasn't _that_ thin, apparently. It was supposedly the _skin_ of the super-light object, no..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkogeO8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GWeACfagqYnLBssKGeGX0r2yR94a7/ FGMAoOogtwlE618kY02IfxZ7O9iFG8i+ =ZSem -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Roswell Debris Confirmed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Loox like a conspiracy to me... - -- grok. MEMORY-METAL FILES ARE MISSING: http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20090521/BLOG32/905219954?Title=Memory-metal-files-are-missing - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkofJfgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GnYACeMmQdsGs4yQSc4u65wCmdqkB0 V5cAnjH3oCM0RrU56qJBNs9MaJqbaBXY =P8/+ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Roswell Debris Confirmed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 It hadn't registered with me B4 that Mitchell is *from* Roswell NM. - -- grok. ROSWELL UFO CRASH IS TRUE CLAIMS FORMER ASTRONAUT: http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0509/roswell-true.php - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkofJ4wACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GfhwCg0P60t9x6ZFdoyg7sI45B128v PJEAn2wxoIlMhTkCHmNmt/oEU0boA+jM =/mGX -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Zitter and ZPE
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mauro Lacy ma...@lacy.com.ar mounted the barricade and roared out: The problem with so called time dimensions, is that they lack underlying physical reality. Time does not exist as such, at the physical level; that is, there's nothing inherently real in the mental construction we call time, at the physical level. 'Time', in fact, is the motion of matter in space. Whatever they are. It is an emergent phenomenon. You start there. To fixate on 'time' as some entity unto itself is to reify this relation of matter and space into something it is not. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYMlwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3F3HQCdHY4kzO+BHFNNH2VuypsRdMng 910AnRUnR/nM2ZUbjOqpXkkTbYbKdKMx =jJ5z -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Zitter and ZPE
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: There is a certain sense in which I would say the universe has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance. Some people take the view that the universe is simply there and it runs along-it's a bit as though it just sort of computes, and we happen by accident to find ourselves in this thing. I don't think that's a very fruitful or helpful way of looking at the universe, I think that there is something much deeper about it, about its existence, which we have very little inkling of at the moment. There's no need to bring gods into the picture -- thru the backdoor or otherwise, as many bourgeois scientists are wont to do these daze. The Universe -- however it began and wherever it's heading -- is an emergent pheonomenon of matter/energy in constant (perpetual?!) motion. It *self-assembles*, in other words. By successive iterations. Fractally. And then *natural* selection chooses what is to remain/be -- and thus what we are, and what we now observe. It's damned simple, really. Prove me wrong. No wonder the religious hate Darwin. (And someone else I won't name. ;) - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoW8KQACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Eo/wCfYa+GyU9ovgl7zXVtEyUSP7Wm YxsAn2aRKtrGYlkodcP3eKaapIH8rX2N =7L4v -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:China vs US
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com mounted the barricade and roared out: And please ban Croc or Groc or whoever he is: He is largely responsible for leading the boys astray. I agree, Grok contributes very little. I regret stirring up his rants when I started this thread. On the other hand, I think some issues are so important that an occasional discussion of them is important, especially when they have an influence on the kind of science that is allowed to be studied and on our personal fate. For example, the economic collapse is providing a temporary bust to research, thanks to the Obama stimulus. If this support can be sustained, we might find ways to make cheaper energy with less environmental impact. Unfortunately, duration of this support is not clear and many people who are doing unique research will not have access to this money. In addition, the economic and social changes are taking place so rapidly, it is worth being as fully aware of these changes as possible in order to make wise personal decisions. Most people who contribute to the discussions on this list add to this understanding, which is very valuable. I add to the discussion, however modestly. So it's a damned lie to say that I don't. However, the terminally delusional politix of the U.S. is not only naturally on display here with seemingly every second post (whether I'm part of that or not) -- but it is also simply *assumed*, in the usual hegemonic way of Empire. And then you people turn right around and rail against the assumptions of bourgeois science that you're all quacks and grifters... Like I said earlier: the irony of it all. Socialism AIN'T dead -- no matter how many billions 'your' masters spend, or millions they murder, forcing that false conclusion on us -- and it certainly AIN'T what certain vested interests here try to make it out to be: people who are ALWAYS quick to demand censorship, let me point out... Beware that. If youse all want to be the next lot of Nazi scientists -- be my guests. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoUV8QACgkQXo3EtEYbt3ELtgCeNbpB+KIFKsyYwikcQ7If2v0z kyUAmwfUuyi0lj8T6voUtIe/juKjqhFV =CYQV -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:OT: Manhunt in progress in Madison
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks svj.orionwo...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Obviously the style of the MPD is the former. Just so everyone knows, we survived the night. The suspect, however, didn't. http://www.channel3000.com/news/19508811/detail.html It would appear that the suspect decided to take matters into his own hands. In regards to my brief conversation with the police officer, yes, I would agree with Steve Krivit's assessment of managerial styles. The officer was also quite young. I'm sure he was simply following orders as he understood it to the letter. I hope I was able to answer Kyle's concerns. Sounds like Buffalo, NY, has a few issues of it's own as well! ;-) Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks The guy killed his ex-wife. The pigs used this as a further excuse to ramp up the ongoing U.S.-wide hysteria campaign. Next it will be worker/terrorists on a picketline... Got it? Too many of you have been sucked into this too far. Some perspective, please. This sad story had this guy blowing his brains out probably where he and his ex-ex- used to make out when they were highskool sweethearts. THE END. Go back to spinning magnets or torturing elektrodes or sumthin'. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoUWggACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E90ACfUkaQCxJkECH6eDcS4HgEtPhn ExwAoJ4CVQmUcWUK/1Qd9EduaLnbKxo4 =D6yh -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:China vs US
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mauro Lacy ma...@lacy.com.ar mounted the barricade and roared out: As I said before, the concept of class struggle, and the use that is made of it, does not promote an harmonious way to resolve conflicts. History also supports this, and I think that it is one of the main reasons Marxism is discredited today. There is no such thing as reconciling irreconcilable differences. Fella. Best re-check the facts in your history boox. What I have said, stands. And will stand. The Test of Time. Look, the United States are collapsing, politically and economically. Much in the same way as the URSS collapsed in the eighties/nineties. But a difference with the URSS seems to be that, instead to acknowledge it and make an orderly(relatively speaking) collapse, they are in denial about it, and so headed for a disorderly collapse, sooner or later. This part is true enuff. And just look at all the denial on just vortex-l, for that matter. Denial ain't just not a river in Egypt: it's downright palpable and visceral. This is a very dangerous state of affairs, both for the USA and for the rest of the world. If you, instead of promoting the consideration of a reality check, and the establishment of an orderly collapse, start promoting Marxist ideas about class struggle and idiocies like that, you're only adding to the general confussion, and making matters worst, in the end. You are getting class-struggle whether you want it or not, brother. That's the reality of the situation, which people like you systematically misread -- with a little help from the mass-[propaganda]-media. I'm just trying to HELP youse all here, believe it or not. Or not. I don't have any investments; don't have any dividends, nor employees, an enterprise, etc. I'm not a capitalist. You're simply wrong about me, grok. Besides, about other things. I was being facetious. Well, you shouldn't. While you were playing your joker card, serious and important things were said to you. And they deserve to be considered seriously. Oh please. You just didn't get it. And now we're wasting more verbiage over that. Vorticians will not be amused. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoUYMwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FABACeIQhIgL0r4SSl3UaTsWLU46oA /O4AnjW9Ce0a4DnNUJgeAlp1QhGxDAgE =NJOs -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Grok send me your pict
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, fznidar...@aol.com fznidar...@aol.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Send me your picture, Grok, and I'll put you in the middle where the Earth is. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/script.html Frank Z The secret police/military and their vigilante friends have thousands of pix of me - -- no doubt a number of them of me nekked in my apartment scratching my balls. Go ask them. Darkness at Noon, indeed. Which continent? - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoUewEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FzxwCggEYnQCCqPNGhu9/SXZlFhWmQ MfEAoJSP9PRP8Ap7JzqDCzEOGlIX3xk5 =4iPM -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:another better battery.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Chris Zell chrisrz...@yahoo.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Thank you for this update. I firmly believe that the world is facing a depression in 2 - 5 years unless someone comes up with a dramatic technological catalyst for growth. A Really Good Battery would do that and more. I also think that it is the answer to concerns about nukes in Iran and a wide range of seemingly unrelated problems. Any new 'teknologikal fix' cannot overcome the _innate_ tendency of the capitalist system to stagger from boom to ever-increasingly-severe bust -- always 'solving' its crises of overproduction with its own special prime Weapons of Mass Destruction: depression and war. As you allude to, any new teknology can only really serve as an _investment opportunity_ for the irrationality of capitalist growth -- the nature of what has been discovered/developed is truly beside the point. And this is why, of course, bourgeois science is more interested in the bottom-line - -- than in the bottom-line of true scientific praxis and discovery. Or youse guys. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoS/zcACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GziwCeJUiVa4mFSmLCXpXUl+4MGhYX 1d8AoNkA3A9RBp8/usyy5mAzk30zsgh1 =63R8 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:China vs US
quarters into the future while the Chinese are planning for decades. We seek to win isolated battles at great cost in countries that have no importance to our survival while the Chinese intend to win the economic war of the future. There's no we there. Class differences in society are objective and profound -- in spite of our lifetimes immersed in 24/7 propaganda to the contrary. You really have little-to-nothing in common with the U.S. ruling-class: the 'Murder Inc.' that they and their henchmen truly are. I don't know if any of you play GO, the great Chinese game. If you do, you can see how this game is being played out on the world stage by China. Bush played poker and lost. Now Obama is playing Chess and is also losing. Meanwhile, we have to stand back and watch our country being brought down by short-sighted ignorance. Ed Weiqi is indeed a great game. Life and History, however, are even *more* complex than that, of course. However again -- their dynamix are _knowable_ -- and thus somewhat predictable -- as all real science is. As long as we can get past all the petty distractions being thrown in our faces -- and into our solar plexii -- by our venal class enemy. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoTGfsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EPAQCfegXQOGY1yRFSqa4atXuUrASY gxUAn0kh4Vtf91N3XqBA2WFVd0fYkBpA =T0fG -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:China vs US
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mauro Lacy ma...@lacy.com.ar mounted the barricade and roared out: Hi grok, Your Marxist concept of class and class struggle, which as a good Marxist you cannot abandon, despite all its historical failures and ominous consequences, is mainly what ruins your whole picture. That may be the ongoing bourgeois Party Line, komrad -- but it's pure bunkum. And we've suffered more than 1 century of disastrous world wars to prove that definitively, all by itself. Now we're being set up for the hat-trick. Marxist class analysis has in fact stood the test of time most admirably -- which is why the bourgeoisie have amassed armies of all sorts to try and destroy all vestiges of it, in their classic totalitarian manner. Your approach here is just the latest of the usual from a usual angle, from the supporting cast. And for the record: this -- and the eventual outcome of it all -- all has very much to do with the success of OU, et al., research. It's also the main culprit of the disastrous historical consequences of Marxism. The construction of an identifiable enemy, an identifiable other, that must be fight by all means, is in the end the best service you can do to your potential adversaries. Even in strategic terms, as these adversaries are usually much more powerful and organized than you, your discourse amounts to no more and no less than a dreadful strategy in the game that you are trying to play. In fact, the working-class is the hugest class now on the planet -- both in relative AND absolute terms -- and the bourgeoisie remains a tiny, highly-organized minority which constantly moves to keep the masses disoriented and disorganized (viz. religion, for instance -- and thru its control of the mass means of communication, among other things). However, once the working-class finally reaches critical organized mass -- it did not, after 1917, for whatever reasons -- there will be no returning to capitalism, brother: which more and more bears more than passing resemblance to its feudal antecessor, in its declining and decadent phase. You are the other, grok. So, you are on the inside, in part at least, the enemy that you're trying to combat so fiercely on the outside. Regards, Mauro And this is mystical pseudo-dialectical mumbo jumbo AFAIC, Mauro. Sorry. ; So... what's up with that Mylow character anyway..?? I'm SO disappointed... - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoTN1UACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HeFACfYlomNNkx0hvEHo+pP7cLvjtE 0BIAoPGEEkaY55g4MN8BFinndb3Tps4A =ln92 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Air Bettery
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, mix...@bigpond.com mix...@bigpond.com mounted the barricade and roared out: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 19 May 2009 13:12:53 -0400: Hi, [snip] Looks like a lot of on-going research on storage technology: http://www.physorg.com/news161862319.html If I am not mistaken, this is based upon the same porous carbon, but with the Sulphur replaced by Oxygen from the air, thus it has the potential to be even more energy dense than the Li-S battery (Oxygen is a stronger oxidizer than Sulphur, and doesn't have to be carried around), and I suspect that it is also subject to the same limitation on the number of recharge cycles. A prime implication here is that this tek drives off oxygen as the batteries recharge, right..? Might be a green[wash] marketing angle in there somewhere... ;P - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoTOCoACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HDfQCeKv3hfVmUNv+ZDhEnRsPeH3QD OS8AnjbIB3N8MQmcCm/QJsc+yK05fK9w =lB1c -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:China vs US
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mauro Lacy ma...@lacy.com.ar mounted the barricade and roared out: If a significant part of that working class could, they will act and behave similarly to their burgueois enemies. And you completely fail to see this. You completely fail to see (as Marxism does) , that the problem is not the social class to which you supposedly belong, but your human nature, that trascends it. That is absolutely false. The biological nature of animals aside (the facts of which themselves being quite open to fierce ongoing debate) humans in fact have a *social* nature -- which changes according to developments in social relations at large. What you're doing here is the equivalent of looking down the wrong end of a telescope, pardner. You are the other, grok. So, you are on the inside, in part at least, the enemy that you're trying to combat so fiercely on the outside. Regards, Mauro And this is mystical pseudo-dialectical mumbo jumbo AFAIC, Mauro. It is logical and expected that you, as a Marxist, will say that. Ya, I know. We're so EVIL, after all. But that mumbo jumbo is not the one that is fostering conflict and violent confrontation. Say what..? Look to your military and police, fella. How many people have they murdered in just the past week or so? You regutgitate the propaganda -- and I'm supposed to just let it past me, huh? NOTHING is more ugly and violent than a capitalist which hasn't been fed bloodmeal and raw, dripping hamburger in the past few minutes. And Marxism has failed not because of its supposed analytical failures, but in spite of its analytical successes. Most often than not, the ones that critic and despise the current social and economic order, are not up to the task of building a better one. And that is made specially clear when they are given some power. I'm not in favour of the actual social order, at all. But certainly wouldn't be in favour of a communist one. Not one as history as showed. More mindless crap from someone who obviously doesn't have a clue. How to respond... If you foster conflict, you'll harvest tempest. You will. And it will be your responsability, that part of the violence, hate and destruction that your acts will be fostering (but this is just mystical mumbo jumbo, of course.) So, in the end, you're no better than the ones you're trying to condemn. Only less powerful. I think we'll let the working-class decide just who are the violent ones. How're your investments coming along, BTW..? I'll bet that slave-labor minepit pays out GOOD dividends... - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoTUggACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FshACghVxxoJUW2eMPgGN1oEOxsu+2 S9gAoJse9JhEWVJD+8nwLoki2KUZE592 =KkGd -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:OT: Manhunt in progress in Madison
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks svj.orionwo...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: That's awful! I hope you are okay. - Jed As of 8:11 PM I watched the police pack up their barricade material and leave. Local traffic is back to normal. Apparently, the threat level has been reduced in our immediate neighborhood. Also, as far as I can tell there are no arrest warrants out in my name for crashing the line earlier in the day. We will nevertheless keep the porch light on tonight. And you don't all the other nights..??? FORGODSSAKESMANLOCKALLTHEDOORSANDWINDOWSQUICKQUICKITELLYOUAA! ;P A small touch of over-reaction, eh? However, that is _exactly_ the intended outcome of such over-the-top over-reactions as these from the State and its goon forces. Your first instincts were the right ones: to disobey, in the face of arbitrary and (effectively) unaccountable power. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoTXtkACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Hl0gCgtIAJd6JwSi0m7pNNX/yI6s4b 1sAAniU97J0Khq0im1Z/TiK22A6UJU32 =F8iN -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:China vs US
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mauro Lacy ma...@lacy.com.ar mounted the barricade and roared out: grok wrote: So... what's up with that Mylow character anyway..?? I'm SO disappointed... Oh, C'mon. It was completely OBVIOUS to me, from the very beginning, that all that Mylow story was a complete fabrication. Just go now, and read in restrospective a few lines of the first posts and links, and you'll see the fabric of it all. Really? It's not obvious to me. Not to a lot of people. Or wasn't yesterday, anyway. It doesn't take brains or balls to be an Eternal skeptik or philistine either. Or to have 20/20 hindsight for that matter. And AFAIK many people are still wondering if Mylow isn't taking a dive here: trying to throw the hounds off his scent, out of one or a few various quite understandable and acceptable motives. But perhaps there're a few more facts I don't know about, come to light in the past 24 hours. Someone enlighten me. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoTY6kACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EVogCg0OTjP6Z0u9P7wMqNp6RjHcXU 5wkAnjsfMpTGfUm+T8SmhyMdmWvUXv0C =oKkR -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:China vs US
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mauro Lacy ma...@lacy.com.ar mounted the barricade and roared out: NOTHING is more ugly and violent than a capitalist which hasn't been fed bloodmeal and raw, dripping hamburger in the past few minutes. I'm not discussing here who is more violent, but the possible means and ways of stop being it. Violence is an abstract concept, worthy of only idealist filosofers and ideologs... but otherwise useless in practical, life terms -- at least as it stands in its (usual bourgeois) one-sided way. But in real, concrete terms, violence per se is all part of very real existence in this Universe. Animals and plants need to live for instance - -- often off the corporeal masses of other living entities. Rocks fall down and smash other rocks for that matter... The thing we're talking about here of course, is how to arrange for humans to organize themselves in such a way that they no longer are (seemingly gratuitously) violent towards at least each other. And then others still, would have us extend that courtesy to at least the 'higher' (i.e. vertibrate, or at least mammalian) animal species, etc. And of course -- this is the VERY question Karl Marx himself so famously addressed. How about that. It must be synchronicity. ; I don't have any investments; don't have any dividends, nor employees, an enterprise, etc. I'm not a capitalist. You're simply wrong about me, grok. Besides, about other things. I was being facetious. Me so bad. ; - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoTaakACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GvvgCfUOU0ViniZSX01FKZ8b41yhrq tMEAn3JZfutD4eqdYPXhFfsBP6amrn7j =WuyE -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:OT: Manhunt in progress in Madison
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks svj.orionwo...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Despite my earlier act-of-defiance of sneaking back into my house from the opposite direction I was all too happy to see the police hanging about the neighborhood. I have little interest in whatever ideology that could be constructed out of this scenario to fit the drama at hand, such as rising up to defy an unaccountable power. One must always take into account an inevitable level bureaucratic decision-making that goes into these situations meant to protect the general public at large and weigh them against the immediate concerns of securing the safety and well being of one's immediate family. They sure know which hot buttons to push, don't they. Just HOW dangerous, REALLY, was this situation..? One lone guy, running away and hiding... What kind of 'murder' was this, for that matter (no, I don't take the police's word for SQUAT)? Potential hostage situations or no, let me tell you: there'd be a lot fewer 'desperados' out there, if this society weren't actively CREATING a desperate situation for so many. Same with drugs and 'The Drug War'. And same with 'terrorism (whose, BTW?) -- and 'The War On Terror' (on us, really). Etc., etc., etc. Do you see the scam yet..? However, there're families to protect here. Right? Only over-reaction will do here! Thinking is OUT OF THE QUESTION!! Reaction is IN!! ; You'll NEVER be safe in a capitalist police state, fella. And don't tell me the U.S. isn't one. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoTcC4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E+XQCfWG6szkNuA0H4caViucwSTMc/ zPIAniIIE/oa7Fk9uUbjjKOFDrOFnDGz =/L2z -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:OT: Manhunt in progress in Madison
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Kyle Mcallister kyle_mcallis...@yahoo.com mounted the barricade and roared out: His son can join him; using his mayoral powers, and pleading against 'racial profiling,' Mayor Brown managed to get the troubled lad off damn-near scot-free of grand theft auto and leaving the scene of an accident. At least he didn't set any fires. ;P - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoTcL4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Gm9ACfbOtrTM9TcFLs0idyAgleM0NH WW4AoNROWsr2bm8z32s6OejgOrLXfacD =b/LS -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:OT: Manhunt in progress in Madison
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Steven Krivit stev...@newenergytimes.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Steven, When I was in business school we studied the matter of a top-down management which precludes localized thinking. That is, there are some corporations, and governments that issue orders, directives, instructions to their staff (drones?) and they do not empower or encourage them to think for themselves. There are a other organizations that recognize the fact that their people are in the trenches - they can see the field of battle - or the customer's situation - in front of their own eyes and the organization empowers their staff to use their own judgement. Obviously the style of the MPD is the former. Steve In fact, the socialist model of participatory democracy is based on the recognition of this fundamental divide between 'top-down' non-/pseudo-democratic organization -- as practiced (gamed is more like it) in our all-too-familiar bourgeois representative democracy -- and the preferred socialism from below one, as ideally practiced by 'direct democracy' in workplace and community committees, councils (soviets in russian) and communes, etc. And of course, stalinism is the complete antithesis of this. As is capitalism. So people who equate capitalism directly with democracy, for instance, are either liars or fools. ; - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoTd4cACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Ea5QCdHSUs4Em9naQl4aPN15JZ9Njr 0h8Ani0IhhZJXD/0z8+sSEKXIF+JfMSU =I8my -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:OT: Why Ice is Slippery
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Rick Monteverde r...@highsurf.com mounted the barricade and roared out: This is interesting, and it sounds like oriented water. Gee. Maybe it's the long-(not)-sought-after Ice-9... You mean water that carries a memory -- and hates you..? ;P The resilience may be in the vertical range, but there may be variablilty of friction in the horizontal domain, one that might be influenced with a broom (or electric charge?). Or a large, polished, rotating granite rock. It seems that there is a tendency for even surfaces/boundaries -- *especially* surfaces/boundaries -- to be chaotic/non-linear/complex: in this case, involving 'one (heretofore unsuspected) degree of freedom', apparently. Of course, such 'ideal' states IMO are likely swamped by the larger structures/forces at work around/near/ beside/in/on/under them too. So like someone here (more or less) said earlier: 'real life' is somewhat different... YMMV. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoRtk8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EQbgCgrhgxHs7CbfjFcyZCJnIIMzW4 mhcAoO8+OwQ+jC60PTBFznZORo9F+0CC =uIjQ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:OT: Why Ice is Slippery
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net mounted the barricade and roared out: As we all know ice is slippery because of melting from pressure and friction. Right? Not really... Harry http://www.exploratorium.edu/hockey/ice2.html Slippery All the Time The slippery at all temperatures notion doesn't agree with practical experience driving on ice. Here icy roads (or lake or river surfaces) are very slippery near freezing, and have a firm grip down near -40 degrees F. This is probably due to hoar frost adhering and acting like a mounted abrasive - making the ice surface similar to sand paper. The experiments were probably done on very flat ice surfaces. It's always the struggle between the Ideal -- and the material reality of it all, isn't it..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoQNaUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Er8ACgnMmupdux72AS2vQFk3C75o+A tg0AoI30L7lVN+IHQ0f9RjmDsmiLATzz =eyLz -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:OT: Why Ice is Slippery
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder hvee...@ncf.ca mounted the barricade and roared out: As we all know ice is slippery because of melting from pressure and friction. Right? Not really... Harry http://www.exploratorium.edu/hockey/ice2.html Slippery All the Time More damned lies! I can't stand it! Is nothing sacred?? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEUEARECAAYFAkoPfX4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HL1wCeKo7zkm87bxGf/eyVbsvBtuqC Rz8Al3yOXat+DZpEoJrzWU6NkyiLngM= =5sI1 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Duncan ?Cold Fusion? Video Mystery
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As the smoke cleared, Steven Krivit stev...@newenergytimes.com
mounted the barricade and roared out:
Sure there are lots of things to debate and argue about in the LENR
field, but trying to stuff Pandora back into her box is a bit pathetic.
[grok recalls the Superman movie where Pandora and her 'box' were, uh,
'fetchingly' -- and somewhat graphically ('PG' movie after all) --
portrayed...
!!]
;P
The recent behavior of people in the physics establishment is very
peculiar, and methinks they doth protest too much.
Pull up a seat folks, this is gonna get interesting.
History is in the making here -- and youse-all have ring-side seats.
I sure hope someone is keeping copious notes.
- -- grok.
- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.
TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
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Re: [Vo]:Duncan Cold Fusion Video Mystery
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: I know a few adjuncts. Most are bitter but cautious; although, they may have been on staff for many years. Terry [Try reading thru this w/o sniggering, eh?] This is simply the academic version of the capitalists' ongoing anti- union/organized worker practice of casualizing (i.e. their assault on) labor -- right back to 19th (or 15th, for that matter) Century standards: 'divide `n conquer'/'race-to-the-bottom'/'self-employed contractor'/ 'reserve army of labor'/'right to work'/'Market efficiency' crap and all that. And more and more, what could formerly/traditionally be called 'white-collar', 'intellectual' labor -- with its past preferential differentiation from mere manual labor -- is simply now being treated as the mere 'labor' which in fact, it actually is. And in fact this relentless assault on labor of all sorts is all part of the capitalists' drive to maintain expectations of past levels of 'return on investment' -- against the, in fact, *innate* tendency towards declining profit levels under capitalism: kinda like the (apocryphal) attempt of King Knute commanding the tide not to come in... It's also why the capitalists have turned more and more to the decadent practice of pure financial speculation: the results of which are spectacularly on display for all the World to see these daze... And so the bottom line here is -- of course today's academix will feel quite vulnerable in the face of 'official' disapproval: we've descended a long, long way from union solidarity -- or 'ivory tower' tenure for that matter... Which IMO, is not unrelated to the reasons how and why youse Vortik desperados have all ended up holed up here on the outer limits of the Internet badlands. ; - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoMlCYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GvzQCdGArbix3+Acd0dKDN8gBIl/FT Z2UAoOIKP+MF7PVJvTdSt5jHFD0yxyhW =Adsc -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Duncan Cold Fusion Video Removed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Steven Krivit stev...@newenergytimes.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Like you said, the idea of trying to suppress the video is myopic. These people just don't get it. Of course they don't 'get it'. They're bureaucrats: mere human-shaped cogs in the institutional machinery. But [semi-]well-paid cogs. So their job is not to think. It is to _react_ -- and thus protect their bosses/their positions. People CANNOT edit history, though some will try their best. That is the very job description of the totalitarian capitalist police-state -- and of its functionaries. Down the Memory Hole with you, then. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoMlg4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FTYwCeJ5Cbw0ckBJHm3JOWrrvbUh7i K2UAniMoC7JymJWqlpZId22B2yOrGnMK =Lh+J -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Duncan Cold Fusion Video Removed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com mounted the barricade and roared out: It is truly amazing and scary to see how much power and influences the skeptics have. Most ordinary people could not cause the suppression these people can accomplish. For example, Pons was hounded out of the Univ. of Utah, Bockris came close to losing his Distinguished Professorship position, Miley lost funding from the DOE and almost lost his job as editor of Fusion Technology, and Hagelstein was denied tenure, all because of their interest in CF . Apparently academic freedom only operates in theory at many universities. And the exact same thing can be said about [bourgeois] Democracy. (That's with a capital D, BTW.) I think an interesting study could be made of why skepticism has so much power compared to what is claimed to be good science based on an open minded evaluation of observation. Why are people who clearly violate the standards of science, rational discussion, and honesty given any influence at all? This question has an especially obvious application to politics. Ed This is because the claimed goals of bourgeois Science are not the REAL goals of bourgeois Science. It's really very simple, eh? As long as you are looking at things with clear eyes. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoMlxcACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Et8wCg2k2q1VC5cLlGaxy8Qx73nlQ3 izIAmgK01pnOAssvdP+zV+3aOj5ZPklG =dk0o -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Duncan Cold Fusion Video Removed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com mounted the barricade and roared out: On Thu, 14 May 2009, Edmund Storms wrote: It is truly amazing and scary to see how much power and influences the skeptics have. It's a Witch-hunt atmosphere, full of self-nominated witchhunters, very similar to the red scare paranoia of the 1950s.Be careful or you'll be labeled as suspected Commie and have to move to some other town. Let me tell you from personal, ongoing experience that the 1950's have never, EVER left us. I think an interesting study could be made of why skepticism has so much power compared to what is claimed to be good science based on an open minded evaluation of observation. In a word: fear. Modern witch-hunts are all about fear of banishment from the community. This explains the endless cowardice one finds in the face of this juggernaut. And the bourgeoisie understand VERY well how to manipulate the masses in this regard -- which is why they jealously guard their mass-propaganda media from all the rest of us. Praise Marx for the Internet. (For now.) Why are people who clearly violate the standards of science, rational discussion, and honesty given any influence at all? Besides the existence of witchhunters, the more fundamental problem is that no member of the community dares point out the fanatacism and corruption of the witch-hunters. If criticism of skeptics is seen as infallible evidence of crackpotism, then there are no checks and balances against skeptic corruption. The first law of the modern Skeptic seems to be Thou Shalt Only Criticise the Victim, Never Yourself.Nobody seems to care that this turns intelligent people into the worst sort of pseudoscientists. And I find the lack of self-kriticism in that exact same regard to recent 'ikonoklasm' here on vortex-l to be quite amusing -- on top of being highly, HIGHLY ironic..! ;P - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoMmkQACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HYJwCg34NG54gUCOzc/O7bFEvwTFQC i8AAnA9pbIZ+sYI/IeaD+mT9pbNrWTK9 =S+5n -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:WSJ blog: calling all cold fusion inventors
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, grok g...@resist.ca wrote: Whatever do you mean (rolls eyes. Thinx of Hitler). How would you classify Robin Hood, politically? Terry Leaving aside that he appears to be an amalgam of real people, taken over time from a general context, I'd say he was a forerunner of liberal forces (i.e. the liberal bourgeoisie from the next century or so onwards) struggling against the growing menace of a totalitarian, centralizing absolute monarchy (as opposed to the old, decentralized feudal order, which was in fact breaking down) -- which, of course, affected this nascent bourgeoisie's bottom line: i.e. basic right to do business, etc. Much the situation as we have today, in fact! ;P Seriously, tho': It's no coincidence that it was this very King John -- in whose name the Sheriff of Nottingham acted -- who was the one forced to sign the Magna Carta (and I hope we all understand the importance of that legal concession). Nor is it a coincidence, either, that our present decadent bourgeois ruling-class has just ripped up that 800 year-old declaration of human and individual rights and used it for toilet paper. And youse guys want MONEY from these people..?? GEEeeze... ;P - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoK/aQACgkQXo3EtEYbt3F3awCePUTInGT77og0L3E/hKsUkaOe qVoAn2sx6d1UqczCySjchLXmmawkCyya =EdxW -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Cyanoacrylate activator: Where did it go?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Rick Monteverde r...@highsurf.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Fellow time traveller: Went to the hardware chain store here the other day to get a bag of plaster. They didn't have any, and the clerk wasn't even really sure what it was and got suspicious - asked what I wanted it for. I should have told her I was a terrorist and I was going to jump on a subway train and plaster everybody's feet to the floor so they couldn't get off at their stops. Jeez. Stupid people are dangerous. Good thing you didn't mention Cold Fusion. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoLK8UACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E9SgCfdOpbqSuMCidhr9IUuAQH/Ip3 VE4AoOX0fuPSYCbF7rF0NEHgkn8a0wnP =Tx/0 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Cyanoacrylate activator: Where did it go?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Rick Monteverde r...@highsurf.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Plaster of paris. Sounds European and vaguely seditious, I guess. - R. And Paris is where they have all those there revolutions -- and (GASP!) them revolutionaries too..! And they hate our Freedom (Fries) there in France as well -- let's not forget that, either. Close the borders! Take my freedoms, in fact! Please!! What can we say in a world where Bull O'Really And Rash Limburger are our heroes..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoLQwcACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GZWQCfeEhNau+WypaR2YhlTUrsPmRE yi0AoPEOabkUUrNZ6oEYJZJZP5j0dD2v =C8f7 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
[Vo]:Vortices Redux
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VORTEX_projects - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoLVCcACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FRrACgsWmqFVrN6cVRYJhePEmWBY6N ufsAn2keLg5xv7KS/23Khla2oe+giMve =tzr4 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:WSJ blog: calling all cold fusion inventors
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: See: http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/05/12/secretary-chu-calling-all-cold-fusion-inventorsand-other-revolutionaries/ - Jed See: It's pays to be a revolutionary. ; - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoJ4ZcACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GcfQCg2zt+Y028zjHR+VffvsgFi8Mn p94AoItPQFWbYkGS7o+v29AS7gPWl05n =Y6gU -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:WSJ blog: calling all cold fusion inventors
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 3:52 PM, grok g...@resist.ca wrote: See: It's pays to be a revolutionary. Damn it feels good to be a gangsta Feedin' the poor and hepin out wit they bills Although I was born in Jamaica Now I'm in the US makin' deals Damn it feels good to be a gangsta Actually, while low-level hoodlums may be confused about their rôle in society (much like many of the people on this eList, actually), the truth of the matter is that gangsters are in fact the biggest supporters of the capitalist order. And the capitalists and their police functionaries are absolutely well aware of that, as well -- allowing these thugs to do services for them, for future considerations... as anyone who follows political history -- or daily life -- should know. And take that as being from someone with personal experience -- and theoretical knowledge -- on the matter. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoJ9S8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HWKgCfeNRl2IyfozA793K841I6BPPf LJEAn0SQkiQRQEOhPMg3UKlfQ7xhnRdX =/jnH -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:WSJ blog: calling all cold fusion inventors
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:16 PM, grok g...@resist.ca wrote: Actually, while low-level hoodlums may be confused about their rôle in society (much like many of the people on this eList, actually), the truth of the matter is that gangsters are in fact the biggest supporters of the capitalist order. I know that. Compare and contrast. :-) Terry Whatever do you mean (rolls eyes. Thinx of Hitler). - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoKE7kACgkQXo3EtEYbt3F9XQCfaOW7gA8UDuuXz2yLqDTfWXYL CxgAoPDKmzFwLIyrFYTP3dMbQVTRDaL6 =NnLm -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Mengoli paper
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The major achievement of this work is to have devised a temperature range in which the generation of excess power is a totally reproducible phenomenon. In fact, only a reproducible phenomenon can be investigated successfully, due to its dependence on the experimental variables. Here, the dependence of electrolysis time, current density, cathode shape, o.c. conditions, and presence of hydrogen in the electrolyte highlighted some correlations which, although they do not explain the excess power generation, may help to rationalize the phenomenon. Attention will be focused on these correlations. So would it be the case that heating the palladium alloy cathode expands the matrix to a certain critical size -- allowing the (near) optimum placement of deuterium ions in relation to each other to fuse? And/or would heating the cathode near boiling be making the alloy vibrate at a certain intensity (whatever the frequency) which aids in the fusion process (as well)? Just asking. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoDXRsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GZsQCgltG8xPryddr2PyPAxticzQYg vjkAoMufkQRhc6HzDLLivu1p7juqnvWh =lV5R -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Washington Post article triggers many anti-global warming comments
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 6:32 PM, Kyle Mcallister kyle_mcallis...@yahoo.com wrote: ...but someone would have to do work, wouldn't they? Who *is* John Galt? An imaginary fascist anti-hero and ikon. Think Ayn Rand. Or better yet: don't. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoCM8EACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HQ/wCgpEgwkyGZ5NHpvjAYcJ244g8K HNkAnj0I/TUUAHAAEC9OauoYSvMwhL6W =7UiZ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, mix...@bigpond.com mix...@bigpond.com mounted the barricade and roared out: I know nothing about your reactor, Robin. If you feel like describing it here, I wouldn't mind following along. But remember: I'm no rocket scientist, like youse all. I'm no rocket scientist either. My reactor would either use deuterium or hydrogen, according to the reactions previously described here:- D + D - He4 (with luck), otherwise D + D - T + P D + D - He3 + n or H + Al27 - Si28 (with luck), otherwise H + Al -Mg24 + He4. I would prefer the reactions with Al because it is more readily available than D, but I'll take what I can get. ;) I see nuclear equations -- but I don't see any reactor. ; - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/8bUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EiMACg2N4izbhMgtUNAySEr9PoeQZY 4a4AoL8BQsadCbWYGOrBFr4y3BOs4bk7 =QFTj -END PGP SIGNATURE-
[Vo]:Re: [LABOR-L] Time to move to Montana
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Montana Governor Sign Stunning New Gun Law http://www.rense.com/general85/mont.htm Hmmm... A showdown over states' rights... I wonder where this all leads. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoAb6sACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EbxACgt8VcG5WfG+1uFLxvXo9py04e jFcAnjh7UyawXhLMU4eoTid089JD6scV =o6f5 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Latest from Mylow
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson zeropo...@charter.net mounted the barricade and roared out: Why the different magnets? There was some mention of asymmetry involved... is it asymmetric with respect to magnet material? Did he try using neodymiums? These people seem to have the greatest trouble even finding the simplest magnets for sale. Either there isn't much of a retail market for these things, or... or... !! ;P - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoBArMACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HCMwCeIo9DmnjCyJl3fB058lb7tVXZ cF0AoLxssE0yNsLa/ZRoNPbl198YyjVB =n8is -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Latest from Mylow
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder hvee...@ncf.ca mounted the barricade and roared out: Do you think your group might be able to test this hypothesis? ... One might also trying using the plastic disk with and without a layer of aluminium foil. Harry The foil goes on your head, right..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoBEYgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FpHACcC/OoAHooOTMSp8Uij+SpSegg hYkAn2kxSEsc/NfGPnDOUNinEQRWpjQN =Kf20 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, mix...@bigpond.com mix...@bigpond.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Which is exactly why there are immediate gains for a world-wide energy grid: there are no 'off-peak' hours, there. It's always 'High Noon' _somewhere_ on the planet. While this is true, don't forget that about 70% of the surface area is water. That makes collecting solar energy there more difficult (particularly as one has to take severe storms into account). Who's talking about the oceans for solar (or the nighttime side of the Sun for that matter)? Any World energy grid would connect thru the Bering Strait between Siberia and Alaska, and between Southeast Asia into Indonesia and New Guinea and Australia, etc. Real issues, for me, would revolve around changing the ecology/climate of e.g. the Sahara or Oz, with kilometer-long arrays of solar collectors taking up vast hectareage of real-estate, etc. But again: any fundamental breakthrus like CF will completely change this equation. And IMO for the better. We really, really want to severely lessen the human footprint on the planet, I would think. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/JqEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G58gCfeiw6sE6x5L8VPJgY1I6jldiI ncwAoO8zMeMY7oLS5ahkC5EvC1mdKBLv =9LYf -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 5:22 PM, grok g...@resist.ca wrote: Surely there must be a simple teknology in the pipeline which will allow the storage of large amounts of electrical power on-site at any power generation site. There is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-sulfur_battery Terry Ya, I was actually thinking of such as exactly that (also direct heating by solar reflector of liquid sodium, etc.). But years have gone by since I first read about this stuff. So I was wondering if there was something even more efficient and 'elegant' now. Since there appears to still be so many issues involved in simply *doing* something. Anything. As evinced by all the heated discussion on the Internet and on this eList. In any case, I don't know how long the operating life of these systems would be; but they sure look being messy over the long-haul -- and an engineer's worst nightmare to service and replace, etc... - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/KR8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FoWgCgleIo4CVvLSbcEXjtvWCNjgvb J6QAoLbMn+NTPHE4SO+cMsOCWumErDl+ =+Tct -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, mix...@bigpond.com mix...@bigpond.com mounted the barricade and roared out: One might expect any chemical battery to have a cost in the same ballpark as lead-acid batteries, and molten salt has the potential to be far cheaper, particularly where large volumes are used (cost of the containment goes as the surface area, while energy stored goes as the volume). That's an important, basic relationship to keep in mind: make scaling factors work for you instead of against you. The salt itself is about 1000 times cheaper for energy storage than batteries. That much, huh? Sounds like a no-brainer. That should make it quite popular here. Note that chemical storage does get cheaper if one can store large volumes of chemical e.g. Hydrogen, or some hydrocarbon, in a single tank. Economies of scale are always the point. Same goes for teknologikal development programs and up-front infrastructure costs. However beyond some point, large facilities and devices become unmanageable in other ways -- and prone to e.g. monopolization of the network, being chokepoints, etc.; so there's really some 'optimum' size/configuaration of any installation here. And that's one reason why all nation states have been moving to 'networx' in all spheres -- instead of remaining with models based on the old centralization of facilities, which used to be the norm. But, 'hydrino' tek aside: what would be the advantages of using hydrogen vs. molten salts here..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/LMEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EcnACgmIuhHWFdCbqgFcS5KfLwohMV HhIAoIVMTUtTGFqHD+FPaHoexUpZSXxm =E943 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mike Carrell mi...@medleas.com mounted the barricade and roared out: My comment was in part to remind everyone of BLP technology. The 100 x gain in energy yield from H is real and demonstrated years ago. The potential COP boost is more than two. The benchtop appartus which demonstrated this was far from closed loop. BLP has achieved higher yields with its 'solid fuel' but a water-fueld system has not been announced. BLP reactors can use H or D from any source, and do so far better than combustion. Ideally a 'BLP' world would not rely on wind or solar to power the electrolysis, but reactors would yield so much energy that each could run its own electrolysis unit and use any convenient water for fuel. One thing I haven't understood about all this (because I only dabble in this stuff): do the 'reduced' hydrinos regain energy from the ambient environment, after having given up useful work to humans beings..? Or is this some 'black hole' sort of thing? - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/LasACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EUuACg2xNuvaF/Q1e7NoK+XdF9STMs +4cAn3iiAenOmK3Pi3edkwK0EWi0eHpU =t1gj -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, mix...@bigpond.com mix...@bigpond.com mounted the barricade and roared out: My comment was in part to remind everyone of BLP technology. The 100 x gain in energy yield from H is real and demonstrated years ago. That's fine, but it is on an atom for atom basis, not on the basis of a whole system. IOW, in practice this large gain is mostly offset by other losses, e.g. unnecessarily ionizing catalyst atoms which then *do not* go on to create Hydrinos before they reform the original atom. I think the fact that the excess is in the same ballpark as the input means that only about 1% actually create Hydrinos (but take into account that this is the time of day when my brain takes a holiday ;). It's long been my understanding that as teknology becomes more and more exact in its control of matter at smaller and smaller scales, all sorts of problems of this type will simply become irrelevant. Same goes for CF too, IMO. And in the case of CF for instance, I wouldn't be at all surprised that future science will be able to construct a confinement path for deuterium ions travelling along precise trajectories inside some e.g. palladium alloy matrix, whereby the ions are squeezed together quite matter-of-factly at the precise frequencies and geometries required -- and liberating their photons at precise trajectories to be 100% efficiently absorbed in some manner. The whole thing would resemble nothing so much as your basic Ford-ist industrial assembly-line process... Of course, you'd start the engineering design process by doing all the quantum-mechanical modelling math required, on some massively-parallel superkomputer kluster -- that nobody would allow mere scientists to use now... ;P As for hydrinos -- I don't know much about that stuff yet. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/M8AACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GsCQCbBwmiGhaD/+xgdDEI355WlxUo MOQAoK5NtOAOFtx1OiDKQh550QzFEOHh =5rmT -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mike Carrell mi...@medleas.com mounted the barricade and roared out: MC:You have a closer understanding of the experiment that most on this list. The quantity of H2 flowing thorugh the cell is accurately metered as is the 'excess heat' generated in the cell for equal power inpuit, with a non-catalytic gas as a control. These are accurate macroscopic measuremennts, not on an atom by atom basis. That comparison clearly showsl that the the reaction yield is much greated than that necessary to extract an atom of H from H2O. Yes there is wasted energy ionizing catalyst gas atoms that do not react, etc. No useful method of extracting elelctrical energyh from the plasm has been found; the only method is to let the reactor get hot and than use a thermal cycle to generate eletricity. Extracting energy directly from a plasma is certainly the key to widespread implentation of many of these developments. Using such new whiz-bang wondertek to essentially heat up tubs of water to the boiling point is decidedly under-whelming... Isn't there research on (tough!) materials which absorb hi-energy/ hi-intensity photons from across the relevant spektrum, directly into their electron structures..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/OdUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HJEgCgy7W4nvo/Ph6gKtYcBWEYJaLp MwkAoI1f3Z1nKzBNAyKiN/buHxcYdhgU =Gisx -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Park back peddles...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: He does not seem to think that cold fusion supporters have anything to be upset about. He goes out to lunch with Chubb and others and acts like a collegiate friend. You get this a lot in politix: first they stab you in the back. Then they come around a little later to see if 'there are any hard feelings' (actually a self-protection reflex: they don't really give a shit). That should be when it's your turn. ;P He sometimes acts like a psychopath: one who lacks any sense of morality, and acts for his own benefit only. It would be more accurate to use the word 'sociopath'. But I don't think this guy is quite that. He's more of a mundane, opportunist, ass-kissing schmuck from what I gather here. He just doesn't care about _your_ ass. The thing you have to understand about these people is that they are really, really stupid. That's why they jump on bandwagons -- any bandwagon -- and attack in packs. It takes brains to be truly machiavellian. It also takes brains to understand why you should admit to being wrong, whatever the cost to you, personally. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/PhwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EhdwCg5KvmCEKovQo4/hiPYg1uN0bw aLQAnRojyRuCtQojtnWBjiUYYyx2ALrq =UVFo -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink rev...@ptd.net mounted the barricade and roared out: The concept of a world wide grid is practically an oxymoron. Whereas the electrical line losses of high tension transmission lines are economically acceptable over many hundreds of miles, over many thousands of miles it is not. Besides that they have been systematically extending the range of HVAC lines, apparently -- you're ignoring the possibility of HVDC to do this job. Really: what fundamental, non-negotiable physical law limits are we talking about here? Seems to me you're only pointing to present teknologikal hurdles. Which may -- or may not -- be steep. A relative concept. Gaseous pipelines carrying the equivalent power as a typical electrical transmission line would have installed costs at least an order of magnitude higher, while having friction loss penalties that are greater. In a previous career it was my responsibility to calculate the pipe and ductwork friction losses for sizing very large pumps and fans. Although I may be a bit rusty on the calculations, I am keenly aware of the awesome amount power that would be required to move gaseous material through thousands of miles of pipe. Jeff What's the friction on that there HVDC superconductor stuff, there..? Which brings us back around to the important question: just how badly DO we really want this stuff..? WILL want this stuff? And it is not correct to assume that we don't or won't -- for any price _some_ people may find 'prohibitive' today. Remember we'te talking 'existential threat to civilization' stuff here. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/ftAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3ERUwCgrnhdXedbfBchxOqvgkO04Z76 PIQAnilnqVayFK6dlKGJ477iWvi+xalW =oDPz -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, mix...@bigpond.com mix...@bigpond.com mounted the barricade and roared out: I was thinking about the time that there is very little land mass in daylight, i.e. when the sun is over the Pacific. I see. However, nobody is talking about a perfect plan here. And for that matter: just how much renewable energy _can_ be gotten out of the Pacific ocean on a daily basis..? Real issues, for me, would revolve around changing the ecology/climate of e.g. the Sahara or Oz, with kilometer-long arrays of solar collectors taking up vast hectareage of real-estate, etc. IMO the ecology and climate of Oz could do with some changing. :) hehe. I'll tell Dorothy that. And her little dog too. But again: any fundamental breakthrus like CF will completely change this equation. And IMO for the better. We really, really want to severely lessen the human footprint on the planet, I would think. I would like to turn deserts into forests. To the extent that it would be natural. I would start with reforesting desert areas of the planet which are the result of thousands of years of human misuse. Like in the Middle East and China, etc. I would like to see the fabled cedar forests of Lebanon reconstituted to their former grandeur, for instance. And those of the rest of the Mediterranean region. All it really takes is organized human will -- part of which needs to be expressed in the smashing of vested interests who are not in the least interested in getting out of our way for our doing this. (BTW, could you remove your reply to, as this makes responding to the list easier?) I'll work on it. There's some 'hook' I have to insert in there somewhere... - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/gXsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3ENrwCdGoUUXPqaDsb/FzYP160hwXVd HisAoIyEvfUgj41PCDgiaMbpr6sLV0L2 =zWJf -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mike Carrell mi...@medleas.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Isn't there research on (tough!) materials which absorb hi-energy/ hi-intensity photons from across the relevant spektrum, directly into their electron structures..? --Mike Carrell: Mills has explored many schemes for extracting energy from the plasma, and has a patent for one which I consider unfeasible. In one experiment, two probes are inserted into the plasma. If one proble is suurouned by an axial magnetic field, a voltage drop between tbhe probes develops and current can flow. If you consider only the energy in the plasma surrounding the probe with the magnet, that energy is extracted with good efficiency -- but energy in the plasma elsewhere is not extracted. If one considers a forest of probes, the effect is not simply multiplied. Surely there has to be a method to sweep the plasma around and drink all that energy up -- good, down to the last drop. Why not place rotating magnetic fields on top of these fixed ones, eh..? I doubt they'd have to be -- or should be -- as strong as the ones in the electrodes. But what do I know. ;P Besides -- this configuration sounds sub-optimal to me, really. Does this process actually require an unstructured plasma? The reason the company is called BlackLight Power is that the energy yield is primarily extreme UV light. At the emitted wavelengths, most matrials are opaque and 'solar' cells don't operate. Indeed, there may be a way to extract the energy yet to be invented, 'an exercise to be left for the student'. Mills has enough problems getting enough energy yield to incorprate a lossy thermal generating system in his plans. Mike Carrell First things first. But state funding support is what is supposed to get us beyond these phony hobson's choices eternally plaguing 'fringe' science researchers. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/hJgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EPbwCdHi5hp430totJcLzhiiGnsFhD x3sAnjIEqBE8kt/zoJtJkstsIU6hei/R =0JPI -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mike Carrell mi...@medleas.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Hydrinos can a) form hydrino molecules, b) catalyze H atoms, c) catalyze other hydrinos, and d) revert to H, with transfer of enough energy. They do not radiate nor absorb radiation. Mills suggests that hydrinos may be the mysterious 'dark matter'. Because hydrinos may exist in many energy states, there can be complex interactions with characteristic radiation in transition between states, giving rise to complex ultraviolet speatra. What about x-rays? When is that threshhold reached..? And for that matter: the thing about humans is that we tend to regularly create physical relations that Nature only creates in an ad hoc manner, and haphazardly. It's part of what being a lifeform is all about -- as opposed to, say, just being a rock. So the thing here about hydrinos and humans is that you people would be putting many, many of these things together, regularly, in all sorts of interesting, rare configurations... hehehe. No telling what could happen, really. ; To aswer grok's question, hydrinos do not incrementally absorb energy from the environment. They will be passive and inert in most chemical reactions. However, hydrinos can form hydrides, forming a whole new branch of chemistry from which remarkable products may emerge. One of these may be a recharable battery with high cell potential and extraordinary energy storage capacity. I suspect one reason Mills developed the Millsian molecular modeling software is to explore the properties of hydrino compounds. Beam me up, Scotty. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/jGsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GpzQCfdAkFBWDas6AbqPosfO4GZ8J2 YkAAn3BDGQMjTW+WtxcrOXiNhOBxoa28 =Aucb -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mike Carrell mi...@medleas.com mounted the barricade and roared out: grok, the ideas for handling a plasma stretch over decades and I can't summarize them here. Sure you can. Or someone can. In general, Mills' experimental work began with electrolysis, where he got instant turn-on and excess heat while the LENR field required extended loading periods. Mills did not get enough reactor energyh density and moved to gas-phase reactors of several types. These were and are good research tools, but the energy density isn't high enough for commercial use. The solid fuel system now described on the website generates multi-kilowatt heat bursts and megajoule energy pulses but is clumsy to automate; research continues. There we go. I can buy that. ; Now I need to understand that process a little more. To properly understand and critique Mills' work does take study. Mike Carrell To gain widespread public support, for funding -- and thus succeeding -- at this work, takes a knack for popular exposition: itself a whole lot of study. And talent. Do try to find ways to bring others a little more effortlessly up to speed: we're not all going to be rocket scientists, eh? - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/ntEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GMZACg4Dbf7K0sKGLcPCI5S5pvkxo1 qUIAoMHFnVHYMAL82uRviJfG+slEzyhR =9DAa -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, mix...@bigpond.com mix...@bigpond.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Besides -- this configuration sounds sub-optimal to me, really. Does this process actually require an unstructured plasma? ..perhaps not. In fact it may also be what is going on in the structured plasma that exists in a CF cathode. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk Now THERE's a luverly ideer... Hold that thought. ; - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/n7YACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GRXwCfaUs2PZCAUmyREaVgZBsS412C EG0AoMQRr6RRqG9aJ/bB1ZojmlXIsOEh =DYSh -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, mix...@bigpond.com mix...@bigpond.com mounted the barricade and roared out: So at some point they give off x-rays -- before they give off gamma radiation. Loox like the possibility of 'easy' CF from another angle entirely. Easy CF from another angle indeed. It's what my reactor is based on...if I can find someone to fund it. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk I know nothing about your reactor, Robin. If you feel like describing it here, I wouldn't mind following along. But remember: I'm no rocket scientist, like youse all. ;P - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/uKcACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EuUACgpXX46NmlbdkCuL/cYqZW6nS4 QbEAoOV77w4yE5TcJRVsinZx6xcRcuWt =iot/ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, thomas malloy temall...@usfamily.net mounted the barricade and roared out: Surely there has to be a method to sweep the plasma around and drink all that energy up -- good, down to the last drop. Why not place rotating Kiril Chukanov has some novel ideas in that respect. See chukanovenergy.com Kiril's investors don't want him to talk to anyone anymore, Tom. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/zhMACgkQXo3EtEYbt3ExEwCgjwoQNHm5kzo/PShaD39riZ2B y44An1GMjbNNBy4EdzB7A9xOzC8UsZMJ =abws -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 blows strongly in the Prairie States). This is why solar makes sense, since even at $1 watt for the solar cell - the electricity costs 4-6 times more than from a coal plant. But is this the actual, real cost of coal power? Seems to me they're highly subsidized in myriad ways -- and capitalist cost-accounting notoriously sloughs off environmental/social costs, whenever they can get away with it... - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn9sk4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H/bQCg0mrUvN8R3PIQY2lRWdmeDkOx 8tMAoIbqJUoO74OsmeBYQ50bUEjJ4X+8 =+Lcw -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 .. does it make sense to design the windmill, and the wind farm - from the git-go to make only hydrogen, which is storable, even if not easily storable and transportable via pipelines (if they are designed to avoid embrittlement)? And people are laffing at ME talking about a superconducting DC backbone..?? ;P .. or do you need a higher COP than this to make the choice obvious? Of course - going the other way - from having H2 readily available at the population center, but going back electricity for the customer is lossy, even with fuel cells, but H2 can be transported for long distance with the only loss being pumping. How does that compare to line losses? Is there an offset or advantage for pipeline transport there that makes H2 more attractive if one develops a huge wind farm in say the Dakotas, where there is ample wind ? What _is_ the present efficiency of coal/hydro/nuclear power that is now being delivered by hi-tension towers, BTW..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn9tG0ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H2SACePjETZ88nPeL3w2unCF3u6hbQ KBwAn1JTAiBGeUD4Qi+NhWDQuKdkPB1r =NifM -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 10:12 AM, grok g...@resist.ca wrote: What _is_ the present efficiency of coal/hydro/nuclear power that is now being delivered by hi-tension towers, BTW..? About 92%: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission Terry Which is impressive. But that's just the transmission part -- not the generation part. That URL links to this one too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_grid And so this all begs the question, again: if transmission efficiencies are so high, and the gains and reliability, etc. such no-brainers, what real obstacles lie in the way of Buckminster Fuller's (et al.) dream of a world-wide electrical grid backbone..? Heck -- they are indeed planning to put massed banx of solar arrays in the Sahara, and ship the power to Europa. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn93mgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FDOgCgj+xoEGn9NL/Iv9pbQgfE/Acd 0AcAoMkk+5tY4WyroGdv4EF6jUccv7j/ =wCrq -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Lawrence de Bivort ldebiv...@earthlink.net mounted the barricade and roared out: Virtually ALL cost-accounting ignores secondary and tertiary effects of an operation, even though some of these might easily outweigh the cost elements of the operation itself. See, for a fuller treatment of this theme, ECOCIDE, on Russia's deadly failure to include environmental and toxic impacts of its industrial and agricultural activities. Ya, stalinism was thoroughly awful. Capitalism hardly better. And now we're all gonna die from Agribusiness swine flu. In the 70s, the US EPA sought to enlarge the scope of accounting by the introduction of Technology Assessment. Analytically, the task is non-trivial, and for that and for political reasons our society, as all other societies in the world with which I am familiar, has yet to automatically attend to the secondary and tertiary costs of an operation. As our species further evolves we may yet make this analytic, philosophical and moral leap. Lawrence We either move forward to Socialism -- or we slip backwards into savage barbarism. The U.S. ruling-class has certainly made _their_ choice. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn93+4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HQoQCgwj4tTwbScO4opSqwfO2D3tTP DdUAn0q0NSzdjpFonZFg7CeY3yDSCvMi =SOtm -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Duncan discusses the controversy; plans technical seminar
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 See: http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2009/may/03/televised-interview-stirs-pot/ Heavy Watergate... Cold Confusion... Hey -- I think I kinda like this guy! ;P - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn9764ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EeBwCglYhPTPcG++kDBOOjof3v/C6x R7UAoIEr7tdK1dcFi8hxS8sqkVrAPnvz =o0W/ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Wind energy breakthrough
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net mounted the barricade and roared out: From: Terry Blanton About 92% [transmission and distribution eff] Yes but looked at another way that is 8% loss which is on top of the thermal efficiency of the plant, correct? IOW a coal plant operating at 40% thermal efficiency would suffer another 8% loss, compared to the original energy content of the coal. A coal plant cannot be turned off at night, so there are additional losses there. Plus the pollution. Which is exactly why there are immediate gains for a world-wide energy grid: there are no 'off-peak' hours, there. It's always 'High Noon' _somewhere_ on the planet. Since we can burn hydrogen anywhere- and the pollution is nil, and since the efficiency of conversion is the same or higher - then it could possibly make lots of cent$$$ especially in the more northern parts of the country to pipe hydrogen, made from wind energy, to a small neighborhood substation sized unit, make your electricity there, at 40% efficiency and up - in a converted diesel - and use the waste heat for almost free hot water and home heating. There really must be more work done on harnessing degraded energy. Even to the extent of making the more and more ubiquitous 'urban heat island' an extinct entity of the past. Even small diesels running on hydrogen can reach over 40% thermal efficiency, do not suffer the transmission and distribution losses, can be shut off when not needed, and can provide very hot water to a local setting. Hot water represents up to 25% of the average family's energy use - not to mention winter-time heating. http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2009/03/17/h2bvplus-bmw-hydrogen-engine/ That kind of co-generation comparison makes wind-H2 look more competitive, especially in certain geographical areas, no? Surely there must be a simple teknology in the pipeline which will allow the storage of large amounts of electrical power on-site at any power generation site. I think 8% loss in transmission (whatever the loss in generation/storing/retrieving) is acceptable, if not optimal. Certainly the power utilities and governments think so too. Of course, you want to keep working on lowering that number. And using a HVDC backbone -- superconducting or otherwise -- should IMO (whatever that's worth) likely be part of that equation. Of course, the likes of CF -- or any other wondrous new tabletop tek -- would radically change that equation... (Wait. did I say radical..??? Oh no..!! MiB..!! Black helicopters.!! Gaa.. ;) - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn+GSYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GOFwCg4wuAphbylsqbovreHjF1XdUz RPgAoJeALalzDRMdhDvy+rV0Ym2dxl3n =Ox3e -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks svj.orionwo...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Two recent komments from Grok: What, like cuban boat people, or pro-U.S. terrorists? Pfft. FUCK bourgeois legality. I'd help a mexican sneak over the U.S. border ANY day. And twice on sundays. Having been an illegal alien myself, for that matter. Sounds to me like someone likes to fantasize themselves as a wannabe illegal, and a revolutionary. Isn't it exciting to think of oneself as being wanted? I'm not the one in denial here, fella. This eList is FULL of people in denial. Which ain't a river in Egypt, BTW. ...And then there's that other salient Grok komment: Actually, I'm waiting for Hugo Chávez to deliver my brand new -- autographed -- AK-103. Any day now. For references, see: http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/models/ka126.html As a famous rock group once sang out: But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_beatles/revolution.html And look what happened to the author of that piece -- who just happened to conveniently die -- violently -- before being able to fund some Leftist project... Let me rephrase that ol'Beatle's song: If you go around carrying AK-103s, while purporting to be a revolutionary You're increasing your chances of ending up incarcerated, or worse. Regardless of the legal ramifications of whether one can legally own an AK-103 - to simply say even in jest that you're waiting for a brand new AK-103 in a public forum like this, and particularly in the manner that you have done so, was IMO one of the worst cases of impulsive stupidity that I've witnessed in over 20 years. You think your Grok persona is that protected hiding under a rock of anonymity playing a wannabe revolutionary, letting everyone know that you're playing the role of a revolutionary? And now you're looking forward to owning an AK-103? Are you that stupid...Grok? Listen twit: your hypocritical picking and choosing what you want to be literal-minded about aside: let's DO talk about your criminal military and police (state). I hear there's a (bourgeois) judge in Spain (still) gunning for your Bush Gang. But no -- let's about how you people can't get funding from these criminal creeps for your pet projects. That's what we're here for, right? It's your government that should be worrying about the law, fella. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn7I1UACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FK6QCgpCd8lxBusxE6KI96uqIduCd6 BpsAnA6Mi2QYHbSl1wYAC8NvpKEd8NoA =Pu+M -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: FW: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder hvee...@ncf.ca mounted the barricade and roared out: I think what troubles many Americans on a deeper level is why some immigrants don't stay. ;-) Harry - Original Message - From: leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com Date: Friday, May 1, 2009 8:26 am Subject: Re: FW: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity WOOT! I for one think that the immigration and naturalization act was the biggest stain on the face of our constitution and declaration to ever be passed as law. My mother immigrated legally from canada, my fathers family came over before it WAS the united states, and they just, came. no legal or illegal about it. So many others came through ellis island where you told your name, drew an x, and boom, you're an American. That is how we are SUPPOSED to be. No racism, religionism, favoritism, paperwork, quotas and limits. Come be an American, chase that dream, live the good life! ALL men are created equal motherfuckers, not just the ones that got here before we decided to bar the door and man the gates. You can also approach this from the criminal illegality, in front of all Humanity, how the euro settler states simply stole this land from the peoples already living here -- and slaughtered and enslaved them to boot. And for that matter: how their (intellectual) descendants are STILL committing both heinous and petty crimes against the survivors to this very day! All this a massive crime which still must be paid for -- as must also the atomic bombing of Nippon, and the saturation strategic bombing of the european Axis cities. Etc. Etc. Since we're talking what's legal here. Pfft. Maybe you want to live in a police state. I don't. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn7JdQACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EhvQCcDkX+vOzW/YIr4KMc8pNUKHXS OtIAoKreiuYx0fSf23Yt6f0ebxL7ICrI =RO1R -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder hvee...@ncf.ca mounted the barricade and roared out: What you say is true. If you take some of R Yeshua's quotes you can make him out to be a socialist. Jim Wallis of Sojourner's magazine is great hand to do that. If you ignore that Yeshua was Torah Observant, it's just amazing what you can justify using the red letters. BTW, I regard Wallis and his ilk as a wolves in sheep's clothing. My Rabbi and I agree that a wolf which as learned to take on the affectations of a sheep is the most dangerous animal in the woods. As a sheep you spend too much time listening to wolves dressed as shepards. Harry There are other sheep here as well: people who smirk about how FREE the U.S./NATO countries are -- and yet do not see the contradiction in their fearful response to REAL free speech, when actually confronted with it, because they in fact are willingly acquiescing to the installment of a full-blown police state. Not to mention that the ruling-class is this very moment fleecing them in the most brutal, criminal manner -- and all they can do is let out the occasional pitiful 'baah'. Bah, humbug. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn7KeMACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G2OQCffJXgxE5n6OJxan56XS0PaMlI /8sAoO3oqA6yVi7kTh6feApn6BqvDT50 =55BE -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks svj.orionwo...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: You sure don't sound like a very happy person to me. Perhaps it explains why you have dodged the previous question: What makes you happy, Grok? What really IS amazing is how you people consistently dodge the very real issue of the pseudo-democracies known as the U.S.A./NATO having become pretty much full-fledge police states. The ad hominem tack you invariably resort to, instead, is really kinda pathetically ludicrous. It's a shame OU and CF et al. are all tied up in politix (and will be, for the interim). That fact makes these exchanges pretty nigh unavoidable. Anywhere there's real and honest debate, that is. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn7WqIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H2iQCgoYFAnsrVQjMgMVgk4hPI8x/l Lp8AoOYoXqaBT6FAQUH/Y55OK9VV4N9F =/AhK -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks svj.orionwo...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: From Grok: We were lucky that we lived down in El Salvador between major elections. We were told it was not safe to be out on the streets during certain political demonstrations. Fortunately, there has been some land reform since our stay. Gee, and I used to work for the FMLN. Just ask the CIA. Did you, now! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMLN Well, yes I did. Up here in el Norte. Like I said: ask the CIA. Some people on this eList are likely close enuff to them to get the straight dope. Or the crooked dope. A shame they fucked it up -- and ARENA ran the country until just now. Still a shitty place if you're poor, from what I understand. From what I can tell, some things have improved. Some things haven't. Meanwhile, you have conveniently dodged a question I asked you previously. I'll state it again: Let me see if I got this right. It is your belief that you will not be truly happy until -THE- revolution comes? Let me rephrase that: What makes you happy, Grok? People ask lots of leading questions, fella. This one's right up there, AFAIC. The problem I have with the kind of people who ask such questions is their generally unexamined assumption that they themselves have done quite alright by The System. Of course, they seldom ask themselves just what sort of system it is they are profiting from... I live for a future *communist* society, Jack. This one's pretty shot. And has been for over 100 years. 150.000.000+ massacred human beings in the past century -- not to mention the enslavement of many more than that -- are testament enuff to that. It's sure nice to be one of the ones on the top of the heap, isn't it..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn5xBEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GMfgCgiU5/5w6fRo0vfQMq0fATnbjQ lz4An1YqA8jy6fyDfD7KzzUsz+9Y190d =vdJ/ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink rev...@ptd.net mounted the barricade and roared out: -Original Message- From: grok [mailto:g...@resist.ca] Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:56 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity Fact is, socialism is about Fairness AND Freedom -- because for one thing: being fair is all about being free. Think about it. I just got finished thinking about it. There is no freedom in socialism. So you claim to be a scientist or sumthin' huh..? Fancy that. Freedom and equality are mutually exclusive concepts unless you limit the definition of equality to equal opportunity rather than equal result. Equal opportunity allows us the freedom to prosper from hard work or suffer the consequences of laziness. With real freedom, some people will get ahead of others. Some call this unfair. They want equality of result without the effort. They want the results of someone else's effort to flow into their pockets, and that is what I call wealth redistribution, and that is what I call unfair. This is real highschool stuff, Jeffie... I deal in concretes, eh? This is the kind of pap they feed you at the JayCees or the Young Republican club. Or you get every day off Fox Nooze. Too many people are riding on the wagon, leaving fewer and fewer to pull the wagon. Many of us in the harness, who are straining and sweating under the load, are beginning to look over our shoulder and see the huge crowd lounging and partying in the wagon, and they are saying, Why am I doing all this work. This is unfair. If we can't ride in the wagon perhaps we should at least have a tea party. Jeff I'll bet you've got a huge GUN collection, right..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn5xUcACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GH1gCgzDvqVZ0SFgWD9Y2p6Sd9fg7n AYQAoLcwwtLb0Mngfvk+4TZUneuB4ICj =lj+P -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Video of Dr. Robert Duncan at The Missouri Energy Summit
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com mounted the barricade and roared out: This is a breath of fresh air that can make an old cynic have faith that science is not completely dead. I don't think guts are involved. Duncan simply had to take the time to explore the data. Any rational person who does this comes to the same conclusion. We pay entirely too much attention to the skeptics who have no understanding of science even though they were educated in that subject. After all: in this system, it's not so much 'what you know' as really 'who you blow'. Same goes for all politix -- and for my beloved scientific socialism... - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn6L64ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HtDwCeN3/tt2DDDOrEc1A+iVDhnb6c 9UUAn1bKPLIo1sUlf2834bKp5F4VoxFs =P44J -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Video of Dr. Robert Duncan at The Missouri Energy Summit
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Edmund Storms wrote: This is a breath of fresh air that can make an old cynic have faith that science is not completely dead. Amen! I don't think guts are involved. I meant the part where he describes how upset the APS is with him, and the phone call from a highly prominent Ivy League prof who was really angry with me for having done the [60 Minutes] piece. Hilarious! Quote starting at 40:42 in the video: The point was, I laid out the scientific case [to the prof on the phone] but he flatly wouldn't consider it. And when I said, 'come on, why don't you just work with me here, through the data,' he said essentially, 'well, you know, us high caliber physicists have done that before, and there has never been anything there. So you charlatans just can go on and do whatever you like.' Okay. Well. It is interesting: my scientific reputation -- I guess, at least to him -- had been stronger before I did the piece. But now, the point is, real science, possibly with outstanding engineering consequences, suddenly becomes a pariah science. A science where no one can go . . . Wow! - Jed Something to be said for having a sense of timing. As opposed to being a(n often dead) hero. Frankly, I still prefer heroes -- the people who do it, regardless of timing -- because it's right, at any time. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn6MJsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HcwQCcCPa6pBQ1xmrIRxNmX4X+m8rH IK0AnRwfUpg7vyvZjku0grZOL29MkjCB =esld -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: FW: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink rev...@ptd.net mounted the barricade and roared out: I have a friend Jozef from Slovakia back when it was Czechoslovakia. He was in med school intending to be a doctor. He ran afoul of the communist government on faith issues, was removed from med school and assigned to be an X-ray technician (no freedom of choice here). That may not sound too bad to some people on this forum, but what you don't know is that, at that time, eastern European facilities used no shielding: X-ray technician was a death sentence. (Isn't communism wonderful?) Soon after, he escaped to freedom in the US where he could be what he wanted. First thing: this was not communism, or even socialism. It was what we call _stalinism_, for want of a better word. Second thing: I think your friend is a liar. By the way, he immigrated legally. Jeff What, like cuban boat people, or pro-U.S. terrorists? Pfft. FUCK bourgeois legality. I'd help a mexican sneak over the U.S. border ANY day. And twice on sundays. Having been an illegal alien myself, for that matter. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn6MqIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GQ3ACgqBVSySa4uBjEBMxbQP2oJBZH Bo0AoJAZ3NN/pBgA3JdQhOf8N+VjPqyF =uEHB -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder hvee...@ncf.ca mounted the barricade and roared out: In a great display of wisdom our Canadian PM, Steven Harper, has called it the Mexican flu. Harry I repudiate this necon/fascist thug and all he and his stand for. What's different from the `30s is that fascists don't have to worry about fighting the working-class these days. Until now, anyway. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn6O4EACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FqpACfXhg2mW4uj+V9ZN/nj+lcDY5f F2UAoNGCzsXXMVlTr6EDJGvL7M5rCJT1 =OCfe -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink rev...@ptd.net mounted the barricade and roared out: Harry, Take note of what you wrote here. Money is not the root of all evil. It is the LOVE of money that is the problem. Jeff Money is essentially just a way to keep track of material things; to keep the relative magnitude of the concrete worth of these things in perspective, as to the resources required to produce them. Which is always changing, of course. Under socialist ekonomix of course, money will become increasingly irrelevant over time -- but not immediately so, mind you. And of course -- basic science will get all the resources its little heart desires, bless it. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn6QHcACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HqmQCg7/vq2qQkmdjrti3aRJaE5dgj u3EAoKY52R6s/MEGNSlBOBKbBPCmkAVm =Rhrv -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson zeropo...@charter.net mounted the barricade and roared out: I think I figured it out... Grok is not a real person. Its a mediocre computer sci student's implementation of the Turing Test! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test Barely passing grade if you ask me. But it'd probably keep the shrinks busy for a few hours. ;-) -Mark Barely passed the Turing Test, huh? Does that mean my virtual knuckles are dragging along the Cyberspace as I simulate walking..? Nota Bene that these people always retreat into irrelevant ad hominem past a certain point. Really: I wonder just who'd come off looking like the human in a showdown between them and any real contender? My money is on Hal 9000. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn6QxgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GlHgCgkFHle2fVu8CiZqTvrqvT0kW1 LyQAnAmRw6c9w9gF+MJPpsoo8fKun7rf =SMiE -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink rev...@ptd.net mounted the barricade and roared out: I'm at a loss to figure what aspect of human nature would cause a person to write a response like the one you wrote here. Something tells me you're not a trained sociologist, then... (grok sniggers) I'll bet you've got a huge GUN collection, right..? You write as someone who does not own a gun, and I believe that we are all grateful to hear that. Jeff Actually, I'm waiting for Hugo Chávez to deliver my brand new -- autographed -- AK-103. Any day now. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn6XuAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FZ/gCfVz2rD0KIR9u0vpfy6C4LLMvP V8oAnA65N6Dio0hiTeEqfWh1xpQBk2Ii =MX3q -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, thomas malloy temall...@usfamily.net mounted the barricade and roared out: The return of the king is imminent, but not upon us. IOW, you still have time to repent, or you can burn. Which way to the ovens, O Angel of Death..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn6fmEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G8xQCfXj6Y0bLxgS6wqkI2l9IwahXL AsQAoIR08U+IRa7quw3v+rFX1Aob+X39 =W/Gk -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks svj.orionwo...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: ... Grok sez to Terry: On the contrary -- capitalism very much DOES relate to fascism. NOST directly so. And of COURSE socialism relates to communism! However I doubt very much if you understand the first thing about that. Ah, I see another informative political lecture is about to ramp up for our viewing pleasure... or perhaps not. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks Ya, I doubt it too. However the fact remains that the main stumbling block to the advance of society today -- and certainly to OU 'fringe science' and tek -- remains the present social order, with its rather brutal and short-sighted focus on short-term profit return. We really require that vision thing, you know..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn4ZDMACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FOTwCeJdrgKtq61RmrpAZ3zpv/F2/p PooAnjjDss66zhBwYF/5TLqt9OfVCp12 =VO5T -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:What's New Friday Apr, 24, 2009
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: OrionWorks wrote: At this point I'm more curious about the recent behavior of 60 Minutes in removing APS's implied approval/endorsement of Garwin's analysis. Garwin? Don't you mean Duncan? The APS surely support's Garwin's attack during 60 Minutes, and they would be upset to read Garwin's trip report to SRI at Steve's site. The APS has also refused to give a nanometer. The last 20 years of research simply does not exist as far as they are concerned -- and as far as Park is concerned. These people are not stubborn skeptics, they are mindless. Totally clueless. - Jed That would only be partly true. Primarily however -- they have an agenda. That much is plain. And speaking of truth: that precious commodity would not be part of this agenda. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn4r5oACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G2MgCeJQ9IgdGeXQTxp87aPsD3iEku e48An3aPEqwYLOc3Zg8DVSc+DXiDlBrW =x+3I -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: An interactive article on the current outbreak of H1N1 and the virus' impact in 1918: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/interactive/2008/jan/03/flu And for the conspiricist minded: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Sykes Also for the konspiracy-minded: 1 hr Taking Aim radio show on the Swine Flu: http://archive.wbai.org/files/mp3/090428_170001taim.MP3 [10MB] - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn4xtsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HRwQCg3EmqUMkuCzVDjhBWnvqGOUJP vgMAoI4H+N4ZXWx+2vU2s4JWFvupZM6O =f2cw -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks svj.orionwo...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: From Grok: As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks svj.orionwo...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Grok sez to Terry: On the contrary -- capitalism very much DOES relate to fascism. NOST directly so. And of COURSE socialism relates to communism! However I doubt very much if you understand the first thing about that. Ah, I see another informative political lecture is about to ramp up for our viewing pleasure... or perhaps not. Ya, I doubt it too. However the fact remains that the main stumbling block to the advance of society today -- and certainly to OU 'fringe science' and tek -- remains the present social order, with its rather brutal and short-sighted focus on short-term profit return. We really require that vision thing, you know..? Interesting speculation, Grok. FWIW: I don't claim to be a Political Science expert. Speaking specifically of socialism, and looking through rosy spectacles, Scandinavian countries come to mind. Teknikally speaking (tho' their bourgeois and other politikal forces would certainly prefer to obscure the distinction) these countries have operated under the control of *social-democrat* governments/parties; not actually _socialist_ ones, per se. And that's actually quite a big distinction. Even many so-called socialist parties are in fact anything but. Most of these European countries tend to tax the hell out of their citizens. And this is a problem..? Despite the on-going indignity of having one's wallet continuously raped, They must sit around at Fox News and the Cato Institute, et al., dreaming this stuff up full-time... Apparently it pays. Well. I get the impression that most of its citizens do not appear to be revolting against a tax bracket that is often in excess of 50%. The only logical conclusion that makes any sense to me is that most must feel that they are getting what they are paying for. They must feel they are receiving adequate returns on their investments. While the neo-liberals/neo-con-fascists in these countries have (until recently, anyway) been systematikally attempting to dismantle the social-democratic welfare state in each of them according to the World-wide plan of the financial bourgeoisie, it's still generally the case that most citizens in these societies understand the superiority of a system of pooling collective resources for the good of society. Not like in the 'beggar-thy-neighbor' U.S.A. or Britain, et al., where neo-liberal ideologs and their neo-con/fascist running dogs have been savaging the body politik one way or another since well before WWII -- including the ongoing mass brainwashing of the populace to support policies which are completely against their interests. And today the results of these trajectories show more than ever. However, we're in a new situation now, where these arch criminals feel they can use the present crisis to get away with even MORE than before. But the night is still young, eh? Yet, there remains a constant struggle to define what makes one truly happy. For example, let's take Sweden in more detail: See: http://www.essortment.com/all/governmentswede_rbfh.htm Exerpt: --- It is hard to argue that Sweden's all-encompassing health care hasn't benefited the average Swede in some ways: infant mortality is low (3.9 deaths per 1,000 live births) and life expectancy high (79.08 years). Paid parental leave is available to all Swedes, female and male. Yet many Swedes complain that their health care system is a bureaucratic nightmare, with long waits for doctors' appointments and even surgeries, and little choice for patients when it comes to things like choice of doctor. Every time Swedes have voted in a nonsocialist prime minister, they seem [to] regret it, and in only a few years revert to the socialist system that most have been raised in. This is typical for social-democratic régimes (like Canada in many ways, for instance), where capitalist ideology -- and ekonomik logic -- are supposed to reign over the social sphere, as the final arbiter. The essential problem with this, however, is that there is little democratic control by the citizenry over the decisions being made democratically in their name. It's a kind of 'schizoid', hypokritikal, self-serving politikal setup -- and has only lasted this long, because of the privileged position of e.g. the scandinavian countries under the previous imperialist system which held sway during and after the 'Cold War'. But all this is now finished with, of course. The Brave New World beckons us. Meanwhile, I've spent most of my adult life living and working within a capitalist system. I neither love capitalism, nor do I hate it, nor do I perceive
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 We were lucky that we lived down in El Salvador between major elections. We were told it was not safe to be out on the streets during certain political demonstrations. Fortunately, there has been some land reform since our stay. Gee, and I used to work for the FMLN. Just ask the CIA. A shame they fucked it up -- and ARENA ran the country until just now. Still a shitty place if you're poor, from what I understand. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn5DJ4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GsDACghp5DNOE3HMOKRJw09gHBXeSK WH4AnRW+y9CbSzGSJ2whx1l5CscmTwXp =bQaH -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, mix...@bigpond.com mix...@bigpond.com mounted the barricade and roared out: I think salient question is What makes people feel frightened and insecure? It is indeed a salient question. Nevertheless, I think I would prefer to explore what makes us happy. ... People are happy when they get what they want, and they want to have their cake and eat it too. :) Pure socialism epitomizes fairness. Pure capitalism epitomizes freedom. That's a completely false juxtaposition. 'License' is not Freedom -- even tho' the capitalists make it their business to see to it that people do not make the distinction. Fact is, socialism is about Fairness AND Freedom -- because for one thing: being fair is all about being free. Think about it. To wit: What people really want is both fairness and freedom. They need not be totally mutually exclusive, but they must be to some extent. The point has been well-made that true freedom comes with understanding the real and concrete limits imposed by necessity -- i.e. it is only a false, ideal image we have of any 'Freedom' that doesn't have much, if anything, to do with real life. Understanding real limits allows us to understand just how we are _actually_ free in any meaningful sense. IOW we will never be totally happy. The problem with idealist thinking is that it deals in abstract absolutes - -- which have not much to do with Reality. People will be as happy as any animal can be, under communism (never for long, if ever, under capitalism). And who could want more. ; - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn5E0QACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HDiwCdF2lI24TyVZEvovifVwjPu3Ot MzIAnRJ2wy2josDnxurvxwbpH4xvG2P6 =tPgF -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Not what Algore wanted to hear
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mike Carrell mi...@medleas.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Superconductivity is achieved only at low temperatures, produced by refigeration systems. The power necessary to maintain the refrigeration would be greater than the advantage of supercondutivity. Room temperature superconductivity remains a goal, not a reality. Sorry, grok. Hey, I'm sorry too, Carrell. For all those deluded engineers out there, and all those other deluded people footing their bills. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn3FZUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FYPgCgjo7YK6QcGKHuS/l/KNhKo8P3 cD4An0dpQmAjmT2PPBf73vN6zX7bRnyS =uYDV -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Terry You must admit, it would solve the unemployment problem. ... can you spell Machiavelli? Sure: C-H-E-N-E-Y Actually, Niccolò Machiaveli was a political liberal whose work has been purposefully misunderstood, and his legacy turned into a simplistic, misleading clichÃ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niccolò_Machiavelli Good thing such things don't happen anymore. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn3Z5IACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EA9gCgrWEnlFKas7J80711bHaJzBlW m0EAoPLx1yxnWsDHsYbcUQqtXlOlzNvZ =4suz -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Kill them all, God knows his own. -Caesar of Heisterbach, a papal representative, to Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Citeaux and military leader of the Cathar Crusade, during the abbot's sack of Beziers in southern France. The totalitarian feudal order may have slaughtered the albigensians and ravaged the Languedoc, turning it into a permanently depressed backwater; but the Truth _will_ out, in any case... and it wasn't all that long before pandora's box had Luther's 95 Theses nailed to its lid. And of course I'm not making the slightest allusions to anything here. ;P - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn3ndUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GVFACfYlVOOHhT53lqLPnpuhnwzj87 2FUAoLH92HcfN3mYvKEUElCxyS2TobZW =crbG -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Neither did I allude to Stalin. Nor I to Hitler. ; - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn3uNMACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GqrgCg00n5f7JpQsicbKldohgK/8bP VIQAn2Hqe+CFHuZrAPoWrJf/qyQgccyh =RuOz -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:[OT] H1N1 Synchronicity
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 9:17 PM, grok g...@resist.ca wrote: Nor I to Hitler. Fascism does not relate to capitalism. Socialism *does* relate to communism. On the contrary -- capitalism very much DOES relate to fascism. NOST directly so. And of COURSE socialism relates to communism! However I doubt very much if you understand the first thing about that. Initiative resides in only capitalism. Not true. Not at all. Eat a frog, grok. Bite me, Blanton. ;P - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn30e0ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H8sgCfUp+85jm/pzybWeD5mogOduuh EmIAoIxfKSKvMxv6CREAjs00Npp6cg5U =NHMq -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Not what Algore wanted to hear
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 If you want a reliable and continuous supply of power, solar and wind will not give you that unless you can figure out how to store the generated power cost effectively. Harry Same deal as regards to ekonomies of skale, as I alluded to -- and most certainly with such an important projekt as getting Humanity weened off karbon fuels. For that matter, all these resources should be taken away from the present building of a military police state, and ploughed into exactly this program. And Buckminster Fuller realized one part of this goal decades ago: that part of the storage/efficiency problem was obviated by the fact that a World-wide energy grid would be making use of off-peak generation on one side of the Planet to direct it to the other side of the Planet -- where it happened to be needed at just that time. And a World-wide infrastrukture projekt like that is reason enuff for Socialism. ; Of course, the reality of cold-fusion-in-a-can would change that dynamik considerably. ;P - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn1vpQACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H69wCgiNuR101cIIrHypn1PCiO6nDX OZEAoIiaMeLrl2hsRVv4KLV9icsenPc0 =+Ca+ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:WSJ blog notes 60 Minutes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com mounted the barricade and roared out: Here's something nobody ever mentions, and which I never noticed until Scott Little pointed it out long ago: it requires weeks to initially load a Pd electrode (essentially converting the whole thing into palladium hydride.) Yet those famous first damning failures to replicate were announced in that time, or less. Doesn't this prove that MIT (etc.) only made a *single* replication attempt? Wouldn't an honest lab have given several tries before giving up? Perhaps it even suggests that they performed the experiment entirely wrong, and didn't load their electrodes near 100% before suddenly announcing that the experiment didn't work. A person suspecting dishonest actions might even wonder if they started to become frightned that it *would* work, so they turned it off early and hoped nobody would ever check their announcement dates and figure it out. Anyway, in addition to the mysteriously altered baseline, bringing up this date discrepancy might make a nice little nail in the coffin when discussing the shennanigans surrounding the sudden debunker attacks first mounted against PF. A main reason I never became a scientist myself (my orginal life goal) is for the same reason I am not awed by the power of the bourgeois state: at an early age I learned a certain contempt for the reality of what scientists by-and-large actually are (in the present social setup), as people and as professionals. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn10RcACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FFDgCgrabOZdMZ/AGOUDmLuVmYATGt 5qEAn0ruuJGaIOcmohcsVfxl9RZmeZzJ =nw73 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Not what Algore wanted to hear
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink rev...@ptd.net mounted the barricade and roared out: Solar electric, I read, uses indium which is in short supply and isn't even mineable. The production process releases some kind of hexafluoride chemical that causes an atmospheric problem. The panels use more electricity to produce than they save over a lifetime. They deteriorate over time. There are overwhelming transmission losses in any grid that could get the power from the day side of the planet to the night side. Need I go on? These are certainly serious issues. Perhaps even insurmountable ones. However -- I don't believe they are. The pollution issue, for instance is almost certainly only one tied to profit motive. And certainly as well: economies of scale would cut down production costs. And is it even really true solar cells never produce as much electricity as their manufacture consumes? Frankly, I find that hard to believe. Besides too -- not all solar tek uses rare elements, etc. Cheap, replaceable ones are a real possibility. These are technical problems that could some day be overcome. My point is: They are here and now serious problems, and afaik their solutions are not on the horizon. The point is, again: to develop ekonomies of skale. And be serious about this. You're not really focusing on that. The horizon is here. The time is now. Some day is today. The matter is no longer hypothetical, even if capitalist governments still have their collective selfish heads up their fat asses... I'm a slow typist. Let me know if I must respond to solar thermal and wind power to. What -- they have problems too..?? ;P These alternatives cannot compete economically with present generating methods unless they are heavily subsidized by the government. So we have a choice. We can pay $1.00 per kwh to the power company or pay some portion of it to the tax man. Which do you prefer? History is replete with examples of necessary government subsidization of teknologikal research. Indeed: much of capitalist tek business would not today exist if Big Government hadn't footed the bill with *public money* for research up front, first. Free Market shills going on about let the Market decide, yadda, are just that. What we require in fact is the equivalent of an energy Manhattan Project. Controlled energy, that is. ;P - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn2YVkACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FxPwCfWGKIrC5fEeADjBknfgFGGyGB /ZYAnRsJvKZPIQz/Lj39xQ3r4QezIXsA =BFnw -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Not what Algore wanted to hear
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink rev...@ptd.net mounted the barricade and roared out: Again, the losses involved with transmitting power halfway around the world are overwhelming. Only Tesla or a sci fi writer can do it. Jeff I thought massive superconducting DC cables were the way to go there. Seriously. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn2YgwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GDJgCgwEozgMMEs0RuZKCMeQMCSo1X RpMAoIPJfJ8BDpzaTCK+j+Bo434TlOyL =7GI2 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Not what Algore wanted to hear
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink rev...@ptd.net mounted the barricade and roared out: That's a whole lot of expensive cooling (huge operating costs). If we can do all of these things for a buck a KWH, I'd say we were doing good. My electric bill is already over $100 /mo. I can't afford to pay a thousand! Can you? Jeff Ekonomies of skale, fella -- ekonomis of skale (not to mention socialist cost-accounting...) But for that matter: they apparently have working systems already operational in California and Chicago (and maybe elsewhere); so I wonder what the real-world costs of superconducting DC actually are now? In any case: cost/benefit analyses have to be done. And AFAIC, I don't see why transmission of energy that wouldn't otherwise be utilized can't be done as an interim, stop-gap measure -- and the system progressively made more efficient, as teknology advances and resources are made available. And that's only part of the equation, of course. But I wonder what the numbers actually are/would be. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn2jCAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HcMQCgl7YDE4Y2GjWTtwcIltE9QHUN ryUAoONdtj35e9fSwtW5S1VcUsq2ntG2 =Kq09 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Not what Algore wanted to hear
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, mix...@bigpond.com mix...@bigpond.com mounted the barricade and roared out: I thought massive superconducting DC cables were the way to go there. Seriously. That could work, but I think we would first need another breakthrough in high temperature superconductivity to significantly reduce the cost. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk That's the ideal. But even nitrogen cooling is way cheaper than helium. 'Regular' refrigeration even moreso. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn2jTsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GWmgCfVC7BP7KgA1/Wk0hYQDYM0cy+ 51AAoNtoGWt8fyY9OE5gA92NLeknDgIg =yKCY -END PGP SIGNATURE-
