Re: [Vo]: Orbo power packs

[Vibrator !]

A potential 2LoT violation would also seem fairly consistent - McCarthy's
mentioned the similarity to a piezo effect, and we can presume that the
entropy change between charged and discharged states involves similar
phonon exchanges per the magnetcaloric effect.  Plus a piezo effect implies
a magnetostriction-type effect - polarisation density of the electret
modulates the physical dimensions of the cell; its aspect ratio shrinks as
it discharges, albeit microscopically. This too would imply thermal
cycling; but whether that's adiabatic or isothermal depends on details we
don't yet have.. very speculative stuff..

In looking for energy sources to recharge the cell, ambient phonons tick a
lot of boxes.  And it'd still be revolutionary. But it just wouldn't be
"Orbo".  Their core principle is passive time-dependent variations in
force, so my guess is, that's what's recharging their cell..

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:

> *From:* Vibrator
>
>
>
> Ø  My expectation is that they're applying anomolous voltage, since all
> previous versions of Orbo depended upon tricking magnetic force into
> performing free work, and they're claiming that the current tech works in
> fundamentally the same way.
>
> Does anyone recall hearing anything about a temperature drop in the Orbo
> when it is charging? Even a small drop from ambient could be an important
> detail.
>

Re: [Vo]: Orbo power packs

[Eric Walker]

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 6:30 AM, Vibrator !  wrote:

So while i've considered interpretations that would invoke free electrons
> from nowhere, i think free EMF of some kind is the more consistent
> likelihood.


If surplus electrons would explain the anomaly, another possibility is that
the Orbo charges contain a beta emitter, either with a high activity or
induced to high activity by something else in the setup (e.g., the 9 V
batteries).

I hesitate to propose this, as I'm not sure we have clear evidence yet of
an anomaly in the latest Orbos.

Eric

RE: [Vo]: Orbo power packs

[Jones Beene]

From: Vibrator 

 

Ø  My expectation is that they're applying anomolous voltage, since all 
previous versions of Orbo depended upon tricking magnetic force into performing 
free work, and they're claiming that the current tech works in fundamentally 
the same way.



Does anyone recall hearing anything about a temperature drop in the Orbo when 
it is charging? Even a small drop from ambient could be an important detail.

Re: [Vo]: Orbo power packs

[Vibrator !]

My expectation is that they're applying anomolous voltage, since all
previous versions of Orbo depended upon tricking magnetic force into
performing free work, and they're claiming that the current tech works in
fundamentally the same way.


I've had no contact with them since the SKDB closed, but have personally
validated their permanent magnet and solenoid-based systems (along with
multiple more qualified experts).  In both cases, the input workload is
either substantially or wholly attenuated, while harnessing a full and
uncompromised output workload - analogous to dropping a mass when it's
heavy and picking it up when it's light.  The permanent magnet tech
exploited slow rise times of induced B for a given H, akin to climbing the
stairs on a kid's slide while gravity's still getting its act together,
then sliding down under its full influence.  The e-Orbo is an effective N3
violation, causing concurrent equal and opposite back EMFs to mutually
self-cancel, resulting in a Lenzless motor - the rotor attracts to the
deactivated stator solenoid driven only by the rotor-mounted passive
permanent magnets, then coasts away from the active stator solenoid under
zero force (ie. not interacting with it at all).  Hence the input workload
is resistance heating, which is inherently decoupled from and incidental to
the entirely passive output workload of accelerating the rotor.  As such,
rotor KE evolves following the usual half-square of angular inertia times
angular velocity, while input energy sums linearly per cycle, hence there's
a threshold RPM beyond which output < input.

So while i've considered interpretations that would invoke free electrons
from nowhere, i think free EMF of some kind is the more consistent
likelihood.


On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Bob Higgins 
wrote:

> It appears from the Steorn video description pointed to by Jones below
> that the the "power packs" behave as an unusual capacitor.  The device
> appears to have separate charge and discharge modes.  In charge mode the
> capacitor-like "power-packs" are "charged" from a high voltage source (2x9V
> battery with series 1Mohm resistor).  While charging, the capacitance
> appears to be very low, call it Cc, and it doesn't take much Coulombic
> charge (not many electrons) to reach a voltage of, say 5V.  Then the
> capacitor-like "power pack" is switched to a load.  In discharge, the
> capacitance, Cd, appears to be much higher than Cc, allowing more Coulombic
> charge (more electrons) to be taken out before the device reaches its
> minimum discharge voltage.  This is a quite unusual [classically impossible
> over-unity] device, which still may be related to an electret.  It appears
> that the capacitor-like "power pack" elements are of "jelly roll"
> construction due to their cylindrical form factor.
>
> If the "power pack" devices truly work in this fashion, I can easily see
> how over-unity energy is delivered.
>
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 8:39 AM, Jones Beene  wrote:
>
>> Prototypes have been shown. Not sure of current status as there were
>> legal disputes involved. Eye witnesses under NDA have seen it producing
>> electrical power. There is a chance that “something like this” is
>> involved in the Steorn device (to the extent that either device actually
>> works over an extended period) but I doubt it - since Steorn doesn’t seem
>> to work, firstly - and secondly doesn’t have a magnetic field. Here is
>> an update:
>>
>>
>> *http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2016/02/new-video-reveals-ocube-components-describes-problems/*
>> 
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]: Orbo power packs

[Bob Higgins]

I read through the Burgener patent and must admit that I don't quite get
where he is saying that he gets the anomalous power and how much he gets.
The described ferroelectric materials he lists are all ceramics.  Most of
these are both piezoelectric and pyroelectric.  He calls for specific donor
and acceptor metal electrodes, so it seems like he is trying to make a
diode at the same time.  It could well be that the electricity seen from
his devices is related to rectified piezoelectricly produced waveforms.

OTOH, Steorn's devices are cylindrical with radial leads.  The power pack
element seems to be limited to about 5.5V like 2 supercaps in series.  My
first questions is, "could this be an effect that he discovered that is a
characteristic of common supercaps?"  As I mentioned previously, the
cylindrical packaging suggests that it was made as a flat structure that is
rolled up to form the cylinder.  That type of forming process would not be
applicable to ceramics.

It seemed pretty clear to me that his video was demonstrating energy coming
from somewhere, and not the 9V batteries.  Obviously there could have been
some smoke and mirrors preventing the video watcher from observing the true
source of the energy.  However, if we take the demo as what it appears to
be, the blue cylindrical power pack element seems to be showing more energy
taken out than put in.  Of course, batteries come in cylindrical cells and
there was no demonstration of more power out than a conventional
cylindrical battery cell could have provided.

If it were me, I would be interested in additional data.  I am *not*
inclined to write this technology off as scam without further details.  Nor
am I ready to say it is an over-unity device.

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Jones Beene  wrote:

> Bob,
>
>
>
> Do you have any comment on the Burgener patent in the context of Orbo?
>
>
>
> There are anomalies in circuits which seem to turn up whenever batteries,
> supercaps and electrets are combined. This is a lure, and Steorn bit - but
> no one has pulled it off before in a long term device. I have a feeling
> that Steorn saw a real anomaly but jumped the gun on bringing it to market
> too soon.
>
>
>
> It goes back to having both types of charge carriers (electron and ionic)
> and both types of current (conduction current and displacement current),
> combined with a constant source of phantom voltage from the electret, and
> in the case of Burgener – both a ferroelectric and ferromagnetic
> juxtaposition.
>
>
>
> Even with the problems which have turned up, I am less skeptical than
> before that there is a real energy anomaly here. This does not mean that
> Steorn is capable of harnessing it, since they have demonstrated no level
> of high skill or acumen (other than in fundraising) so the door is still
> open for others with the proper skills.
>
>
>
> *From:* Bob Higgins
>
>
>
> It appears from the Steorn video description pointed to by Jones below
> that the the "power packs" behave as an unusual capacitor.  The device
> appears to have separate charge and discharge modes.  In charge mode the
> capacitor-like "power-packs" are "charged" from a high voltage source (2x9V
> battery with series 1Mohm resistor).  While charging, the capacitance
> appears to be very low, call it Cc, and it doesn't take much Coulombic
> charge (not many electrons) to reach a voltage of, say 5V.  Then the
> capacitor-like "power pack" is switched to a load.  In discharge, the
> capacitance, Cd, appears to be much higher than Cc, allowing more Coulombic
> charge (more electrons) to be taken out before the device reaches its
> minimum discharge voltage.  This is a quite unusual [classically impossible
> over-unity] device, which still may be related to an electret.  It appears
> that the capacitor-like "power pack" elements are of "jelly roll"
> construction due to their cylindrical form factor.
>
> If the "power pack" devices truly work in this fashion, I can easily see
> how over-unity energy is delivered.
>
>
>
> Jones Beene wrote:
>
> Prototypes have been shown. Not sure of current status as there were legal
> disputes involved. Eye witnesses under NDA have seen it producing
> electrical power. There is a chance that “something like this” is
> involved in the Steorn device (to the extent that either device actually
> works over an extended period) but I doubt it - since Steorn doesn’t seem
> to work, firstly - and secondly doesn’t have a magnetic field. Here is an
> update:
>
>
> http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2016/02/new-video-reveals-ocube-components-describes-problems/
>
>
>

RE: [Vo]: Orbo power packs

[Jones Beene]

Bob,

 

Do you have any comment on the Burgener patent in the context of Orbo?

 

There are anomalies in circuits which seem to turn up whenever batteries, 
supercaps and electrets are combined. This is a lure, and Steorn bit - but no 
one has pulled it off before in a long term device. I have a feeling that 
Steorn saw a real anomaly but jumped the gun on bringing it to market too soon. 

 

It goes back to having both types of charge carriers (electron and ionic) and 
both types of current (conduction current and displacement current), combined 
with a constant source of phantom voltage from the electret, and in the case of 
Burgener – both a ferroelectric and ferromagnetic juxtaposition.

 

Even with the problems which have turned up, I am less skeptical than before 
that there is a real energy anomaly here. This does not mean that Steorn is 
capable of harnessing it, since they have demonstrated no level of high skill 
or acumen (other than in fundraising) so the door is still open for others with 
the proper skills.

 

From: Bob Higgins 

 

It appears from the Steorn video description pointed to by Jones below that the 
the "power packs" behave as an unusual capacitor.  The device appears to have 
separate charge and discharge modes.  In charge mode the capacitor-like 
"power-packs" are "charged" from a high voltage source (2x9V battery with 
series 1Mohm resistor).  While charging, the capacitance appears to be very 
low, call it Cc, and it doesn't take much Coulombic charge (not many electrons) 
to reach a voltage of, say 5V.  Then the capacitor-like "power pack" is 
switched to a load.  In discharge, the capacitance, Cd, appears to be much 
higher than Cc, allowing more Coulombic charge (more electrons) to be taken out 
before the device reaches its minimum discharge voltage.  This is a quite 
unusual [classically impossible over-unity] device, which still may be related 
to an electret.  It appears that the capacitor-like "power pack" elements are 
of "jelly roll" construction due to their cylindrical form factor.  

If the "power pack" devices truly work in this fashion, I can easily see how 
over-unity energy is delivered.

 

Jones Beene wrote:

Prototypes have been shown. Not sure of current status as there were legal 
disputes involved. Eye witnesses under NDA have seen it producing electrical 
power. There is a chance that “something like this” is involved in the Steorn 
device (to the extent that either device actually works over an extended 
period) but I doubt it - since Steorn doesn’t seem to work, firstly - and 
secondly doesn’t have a magnetic field. Here is an update: 

 

 
http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2016/02/new-video-reveals-ocube-components-describes-problems/

 

Re: [Vo]: Orbo power packs

[H LV]

All I want is a clock that I never need to wind.
At this stage I think Steorn is overreaching by trying to make and sell a
self-charging cell phone.

Harry

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Bob Higgins 
wrote:

> It appears from the Steorn video description pointed to by Jones below
> that the the "power packs" behave as an unusual capacitor.  The device
> appears to have separate charge and discharge modes.  In charge mode the
> capacitor-like "power-packs" are "charged" from a high voltage source (2x9V
> battery with series 1Mohm resistor).  While charging, the capacitance
> appears to be very low, call it Cc, and it doesn't take much Coulombic
> charge (not many electrons) to reach a voltage of, say 5V.  Then the
> capacitor-like "power pack" is switched to a load.  In discharge, the
> capacitance, Cd, appears to be much higher than Cc, allowing more Coulombic
> charge (more electrons) to be taken out before the device reaches its
> minimum discharge voltage.  This is a quite unusual [classically impossible
> over-unity] device, which still may be related to an electret.  It appears
> that the capacitor-like "power pack" elements are of "jelly roll"
> construction due to their cylindrical form factor.
>
> If the "power pack" devices truly work in this fashion, I can easily see
> how over-unity energy is delivered.
>
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 8:39 AM, Jones Beene  wrote:
>
>> Prototypes have been shown. Not sure of current status as there were
>> legal disputes involved. Eye witnesses under NDA have seen it producing
>> electrical power. There is a chance that “something like this” is
>> involved in the Steorn device (to the extent that either device actually
>> works over an extended period) but I doubt it - since Steorn doesn’t seem
>> to work, firstly - and secondly doesn’t have a magnetic field. Here is
>> an update:
>>
>>
>> *http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2016/02/new-video-reveals-ocube-components-describes-problems/*
>> 
>>
>>
>

[Vo]: Orbo power packs

[Bob Higgins]

It appears from the Steorn video description pointed to by Jones below that
the the "power packs" behave as an unusual capacitor.  The device appears
to have separate charge and discharge modes.  In charge mode the
capacitor-like "power-packs" are "charged" from a high voltage source (2x9V
battery with series 1Mohm resistor).  While charging, the capacitance
appears to be very low, call it Cc, and it doesn't take much Coulombic
charge (not many electrons) to reach a voltage of, say 5V.  Then the
capacitor-like "power pack" is switched to a load.  In discharge, the
capacitance, Cd, appears to be much higher than Cc, allowing more Coulombic
charge (more electrons) to be taken out before the device reaches its
minimum discharge voltage.  This is a quite unusual [classically impossible
over-unity] device, which still may be related to an electret.  It appears
that the capacitor-like "power pack" elements are of "jelly roll"
construction due to their cylindrical form factor.

If the "power pack" devices truly work in this fashion, I can easily see
how over-unity energy is delivered.

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 8:39 AM, Jones Beene  wrote:

> Prototypes have been shown. Not sure of current status as there were
> legal disputes involved. Eye witnesses under NDA have seen it producing
> electrical power. There is a chance that “something like this” is
> involved in the Steorn device (to the extent that either device actually
> works over an extended period) but I doubt it - since Steorn doesn’t seem
> to work, firstly - and secondly doesn’t have a magnetic field. Here is an
> update:
>
>
> *http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2016/02/new-video-reveals-ocube-components-describes-problems/*
> 
>
>