Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter
I remember reading the spec for the flow meter that was used. While it may have had mechanical digit readings that were that coarse, the flow meter has an available electronic option that provides a pulse for each turn of the internal rotor which corresponds to about 1 liter of flow (again recollection). It could be an upset/surprise if Penon testifies that he used electronic monitoring of the flow meter. Still it does not account for the uniform and coarse flows reported each day. On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > David Roberson wrote: > > Does your diagram show how the floating device in the system tank controls >> the intake water flowing into it? > > > Nope. I do not know why. Maybe the diagram is too abstract for this. Or it > is wrong . . . or it shows another version of the setup? > > > >> Also, does it show that the customer feed tank is located above the >> system feed tank so that water flowing into the second or system tank >> literally falls into it? > > > Nope. No such detail. But people tell me that's how it worked. > > Of course, even with a gravity return, it would be possible to ensure the > flow meter works right. But I have heard Rossi did not do this. > > Also, you can see from the specs that this is the wrong kind of flow > meter. It makes no sense to use an instrument the measures only 36 units > per day. It should measure thousands. In other words, where the flow is > supposedly 6 gallons per minute, the instrument should measure a fraction > of a gallon so that it "clicks" over the smallest unit of measurement > several times a minute, not once every 40 minutes. > > - Jed > >
Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter
David Roberson wrote: Does your diagram show how the floating device in the system tank controls > the intake water flowing into it? Nope. I do not know why. Maybe the diagram is too abstract for this. Or it is wrong . . . or it shows another version of the setup? > Also, does it show that the customer feed tank is located above the system > feed tank so that water flowing into the second or system tank literally > falls into it? Nope. No such detail. But people tell me that's how it worked. Of course, even with a gravity return, it would be possible to ensure the flow meter works right. But I have heard Rossi did not do this. Also, you can see from the specs that this is the wrong kind of flow meter. It makes no sense to use an instrument the measures only 36 units per day. It should measure thousands. In other words, where the flow is supposedly 6 gallons per minute, the instrument should measure a fraction of a gallon so that it "clicks" over the smallest unit of measurement several times a minute, not once every 40 minutes. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter
Peter Gluck wrote: > Penon simply says flowmeter between JMP plant and E-Cats and anybody > who has seen a plant knows ab ovo it MUST be immediately after the pump > water flow measured, injected in the E-Cats > No, that is not what Penon says. Here is the circuit: 1 Reservoir => 2 Pumps => 3 E-cat => 4 Customer Plant => 5 Condenser => 6 Gravity return => 7 Reservoir Penon explicitly says "flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet into the shelter. It is located along the line of return of the water. between the Plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat." That is item 6. You are saying it is located between items 2 and 3. That is before the JMP plant. Penon *specifically*, *clearly* says it is at point 6, between the "plant of the customer" and "the 1 MW E-Cat." That is also where Rossi's schematic shows it. What you say is *directly contradicted* by what Penon wrote. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter
Jed, Does your diagram show how the floating device in the system tank controls the intake water flowing into it? Also, does it show that the customer feed tank is located above the system feed tank so that water flowing into the second or system tank literally falls into it? There are a multitude of possible connections. I am attempting to visualize exactly how this occurs. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell To: Vortex Sent: Tue, Feb 21, 2017 10:07 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter Peter Gluck wrote: Question: do yu have information from Rossi or you have the piping diagram of the plant showing clearly and exactly (as position) where in the gravity return pipe was placed the flowmeter? This information is from Rossi! He uploaded these statements by Penon. I have this, and I also have a diagram showing the same thing, with the flow meter in the gravity return pipe. Are you saying you don't believe Rossi and Penon when they tell you where they put the flow meter? Can you ke a look and tell where was placed the main pump (for 1500 kg/hour- floating in the air or firmly placed on the ground? There were many pumps, but they could not produce this much flow. In any case NOT measuring the flow of water which enters directly to the generators and using a 25 times undersized pipe for steam are fatal flaws and if your favorite author Murray got it right than he is the diamond witness for IH. This statement is from Rossi and Penon, not Murray. THEY TOLD YOU where they put the flow meter. It says: The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools up to its condensation – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet into the shelter. On the contrary if he errs than he is just a plant illiterate trying to find imaginary things- doing harm fo those who have paid him. It is not imaginary. This is a document from Rossi filed in the lawsuit. If you have such a ardent desire to contradict my assertions, show the diagram and..finita la commedia! Why do you need a diagram when you have text from Rossi describing this? Why don't you believe Rossi? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter
Jones, This seems a typical negative piece from you. I'm not a lawyer but I understand there are other ways to get the ERV's report entered as evidence, besides having Penon show up. Why do you say Rossi would make a bad impression in court? Everyone who has met him (IH excepted) say he is courteous and makes a favorable impression. AA On 2/21/2017 10:36 AM, Jones Beene wrote: Speaking of Penon, or should I say the absence of Penon, has anyone considered the rules of evidence in Federal Court for getting that ERV report into evidence? As it stands now, Penon - who is the supposed expert who collected the data and wrote the report is unavailable to appear for deposition. This means that the data in the ERV report may not be entered into evidence at a trial, which means that the case will have to be dismissed... since the contract revolves directly around that report and its validity. But there are strict rules for admission of evidence, more so for criminal trials but also for civil and generally it would seem that Penon must appear in order to have his report allowed into evidence at all. In fact, an eventual dismissal of the case, after maximizing the delays as long as possible - looks like a *desired outcome *from the Rossi perspective. He then can then blame both IH and the legal system as well as Krivit and so on. But the drama drags on - kind of a cross between Seinfeld, a "show about nothing" and The Leftovers, which is a warped take on what it means to have faith. Rossigate is about warped faith, no doubt there. The one thing Rossi does not want is to risk a jury which rules against him. He would not be a believable witness with his ego and temperament, and a good lawyer will tear him to shreds on the stand. He expected to settle in the beginning (probably getting bad legal advice) - but IH refused and now Rossi cannot walk away without looking bad ... but without Penon, a favorable jury verdict is probably not possible due to the problem of getting the report admitted at all, not to mention the dubious details. Bottom line: additional reliable information on the science of Ni-H will probably not be forthcoming to the public this year and further delay is anticipated. Rossi may be content to leave everything in limbo and claim to be a victim of greedy investors. That may work to his benefit for the next round in another location. A nebulous outcome would allow him to look for new backers in Europe or Russia. The suckers who invested $20 million in Steorn - a completely obvious scam, are still out there. But if a jury rules against him, the party is over. Do not hold your breath for a June trial.
Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter
Jed, Penon simply says flowmeter between JMP plant and E-Cats and anybody who has seen a plant knows ab ovo it MUST be immediately after the pump water flow measured, injected in the E-Cats on JONP Rossi said more times piping forms U flowmeter down- standard engineering you say- "many pumps, but they could not produce this much flow." Much flow, 6.6 gallons per minute, 25kg/minute too much...were you awake when you wrote this? (I know you are not drinking too much alcohol so the explanation must be something bad) Next discussion with you when you have the diagram. Waeted time is not recoverable.. I must confess I am in very bad mood have to write a Blog nd no LENR papers have arrived today, in no language. Desperation! Few LENR related papers & news. But it is early, I still hope. peter On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 6:27 PM, a.ashfield wrote: > Jed, > I thought you said earlier that you had the plumbing layout but were not > allowed to show it. If so, there should be no doubt about whether there > is U in the system. > > AA > > On 2/20/2017 8:41 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > There has been some discussion here about the position of the flow meter > in Rossi's configuration. I have information from Rossi showing it was > located in the gravity return between the customer site and the reservoir. > I do not think there was a U pipe but I cannot rule that out 100%. Nothing > like that is shown and no one who was there told me there is one -- and I > did ask. Anyway, Abd pointed out that Penon described the configuration in > one of the lawsuit documents. It is a little hard to understand Penon's > English, so Abd added the comments in square brackets: > > Quote > > The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools >> up to its condensation. * >> >> – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet into the >> shelter. It is located along the line of return of the water. between the >> Plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat. > > > >> The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the Plant, that >> receives the water from an external plant [sic, “tank”]. >> > > >> It is conveyed by pumps in [sic, “into”] the unit’s E-cat[s], where it is >> heated to vaporize. The steam is collected in one tube of the steam line, >> which conveys it to the outside of the shelter. >> > > >> The water is so recycled to the internal [sic, external] tank in a closed >> loop. The water is distilled water. >> > > >> The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a water line >> and a floating valve, so that the level of water inside the internal tank >> is maintained constant. The water flows from the external tank to the >> internal tank by gravity. […] >> > > > * Note from Jed: "Cools up to its condensation" means it cools down until > it condenses. > > This contradicts assertions by Peter Gluck. > > - Jed > > > -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter
Jed, I thought you said earlier that you had the plumbing layout but were not allowed to show it. If so, there should be no doubt about whether there is U in the system. AA On 2/20/2017 8:41 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: There has been some discussion here about the position of the flow meter in Rossi's configuration. I have information from Rossi showing it was located in the gravity return between the customer site and the reservoir. I do not think there was a U pipe but I cannot rule that out 100%. Nothing like that is shown and no one who was there told me there is one -- and I did ask. Anyway, Abd pointed out that Penon described the configuration in one of the lawsuit documents. It is a little hard to understand Penon's English, so Abd added the comments in square brackets: Quote The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools up to its condensation. * – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet into the shelter. It is located along the line of return of the water. between the Plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat. The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the Plant, that receives the water from an external plant [sic, “tank”]. It is conveyed by pumps in [sic, “into”] the unit’s E-cat[s], where it is heated to vaporize. The steam is collected in one tube of the steam line, which conveys it to the outside of the shelter. The water is so recycled to the internal [sic, external] tank in a closed loop. The water is distilled water. The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a water line and a floating valve, so that the level of water inside the internal tank is maintained constant. The water flows from the external tank to the internal tank by gravity. […] * Note from Jed: "Cools up to its condensation" means it cools down until it condenses. This contradicts assertions by Peter Gluck. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter
Speaking of Penon, or should I say the absence of Penon, has anyone considered the rules of evidence in Federal Court for getting that ERV report into evidence? As it stands now, Penon - who is the supposed expert who collected the data and wrote the report is unavailable to appear for deposition. This means that the data in the ERV report may not be entered into evidence at a trial, which means that the case will have to be dismissed... since the contract revolves directly around that report and its validity. But there are strict rules for admission of evidence, more so for criminal trials but also for civil and generally it would seem that Penon must appear in order to have his report allowed into evidence at all. In fact, an eventual dismissal of the case, after maximizing the delays as long as possible - looks like a *desired outcome *from the Rossi perspective. He then can then blame both IH and the legal system as well as Krivit and so on. But the drama drags on - kind of a cross between Seinfeld, a "show about nothing" and The Leftovers, which is a warped take on what it means to have faith. Rossigate is about warped faith, no doubt there. The one thing Rossi does not want is to risk a jury which rules against him. He would not be a believable witness with his ego and temperament, and a good lawyer will tear him to shreds on the stand. He expected to settle in the beginning (probably getting bad legal advice) - but IH refused and now Rossi cannot walk away without looking bad ... but without Penon, a favorable jury verdict is probably not possible due to the problem of getting the report admitted at all, not to mention the dubious details. Bottom line: additional reliable information on the science of Ni-H will probably not be forthcoming to the public this year and further delay is anticipated. Rossi may be content to leave everything in limbo and claim to be a victim of greedy investors. That may work to his benefit for the next round in another location. A nebulous outcome would allow him to look for new backers in Europe or Russia. The suckers who invested $20 million in Steorn - a completely obvious scam, are still out there. But if a jury rules against him, the party is over. Do not hold your breath for a June trial.
Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter
Jed So changing "external plant" to "external tank" and changing "internal tank " to "external tank" is correcting bad English... Uhhh okaayy ?? The internal tank was inside the E-Cat plant not the external one. I'm not going to get drawn into childish bickering. I intend to wait from now on for real data not opinions and if that is not forthcoming then I wait with curiosity for the Judgement. Sent from my iPhone On 21 Feb 2017, at 16:12, Jed Rothwell mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com>> wrote: Stephen Cooke mailto:stephen_coo...@hotmail.com>> wrote: Jed.. nice square bracketing. As I said, that was added by Abd. I do not know where the original document is in the lawsuit papers. What if we remove those... and assume the ERV's English is fine. It isn't fine! It is difficult to understand. Have you considered the external tank could be located at the external plant close to the condensor? No, the diagram shows where it is. The condenser in the walled-off customer site. The reservoir is inside the shipping container. At least, that's what Rossi showed, and that is what I have heard. In fact everything we say is speculation and can be interpreted how we want depending how we want to read it especially if we change the words someone says to support it. It is not "speculation"! That's absurd. There are words directly from Rossi, uploaded in the lawsuit. If he is lying here it is a serious matter. You have this directly from the horse's mouth yet you still don't believe it? How much proof can you ask for? Why would Rossi lie and tell the court the flow meter was installed in the gravity return pipe if that were not true? I wait with anticipation for the flow diagram. Why do you need it? Rossi and Penon already told you what is in it. If you don't believe what they wrote, why would you believe their diagram showing the same thing? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter
Stephen Cooke wrote: Jed.. nice square bracketing. > As I said, that was added by Abd. I do not know where the original document is in the lawsuit papers. > What if we remove those... and assume the ERV's English is fine. > It isn't fine! It is difficult to understand. > Have you considered the external tank could be located at the external > plant close to the condensor? > No, the diagram shows where it is. The condenser in the walled-off customer site. The reservoir is inside the shipping container. At least, that's what Rossi showed, and that is what I have heard. > In fact everything we say is speculation and can be interpreted how we > want depending how we want to read it especially if we change the words > someone says to support it. > It is not "speculation"! That's absurd. There are words directly from Rossi, uploaded in the lawsuit. If he is lying here it is a serious matter. You have this directly from the horse's mouth yet you still don't believe it? How much proof can you ask for? Why would Rossi lie and tell the court the flow meter was installed in the gravity return pipe if that were not true? > I wait with anticipation for the flow diagram. > Why do you need it? Rossi and Penon already told you what is in it. If you don't believe what they wrote, why would you believe their diagram showing the same thing? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter
Peter Gluck wrote: > Question: do yu have information from Rossi or you have the piping > diagram of the plant showing clearly and exactly (as position) where > in the gravity return pipe was placed the flowmeter? > This information is from Rossi! He uploaded these statements by Penon. I have this, and I also have a diagram showing the same thing, with the flow meter in the gravity return pipe. Are you saying you don't believe Rossi and Penon when they tell you where they put the flow meter? > Can you ke a look and tell where was placed the main pump (for 1500 > kg/hour- floating in the air or firmly placed on the ground? > There were many pumps, but they could not produce this much flow. > In any case NOT measuring the flow of water which enters directly > to the generators and using a 25 times undersized pipe for steam are fatal > flaws and if your favorite author Murray got it right than he is the > diamond witness for IH. > This statement is from Rossi and Penon, not Murray. THEY TOLD YOU where they put the flow meter. It says: The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools up to its condensation – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet into the shelter. > On the contrary if he errs than he is just a plant illiterate > trying to find imaginary things- doing harm fo those who have paid him. > It is not imaginary. This is a document from Rossi filed in the lawsuit. > If you have such a ardent desire to contradict my assertions, show the > diagram and..finita la commedia! > Why do you need a diagram when you have text from Rossi describing this? Why don't you believe Rossi? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter
Jed.. nice square bracketing. What if we remove those... and assume the ERV's English is fine. Have you considered the external tank could be located at the external plant close to the condensor? In fact everything we say is speculation and can be interpreted how we want depending how we want to read it especially if we change the words someone says to support it. I wait with anticipation for the flow diagram. On 21 Feb 2017, at 10:47, Peter Gluck mailto:peter.gl...@gmail.com>> wrote: This was dicussed already twice but DeJavu is a reality (see my blog today about the psychological phenomenon). Question: do yu have information from Rossi or you have the piping diagram of the plant showing clearly and exactly (as position) where in the gravity return pipe was placed the flowmeter? Can you ke a look and tell where was placed the main pump (for 1500 kg/hour- floating in the air or firmly placed on the ground? In any case NOT measuring the flow of water which enters directly to the generators and using a 25 times undersized pipe for steam are fatal flaws and if your favorite author Murray got it right than he is the diamond witness for IH. On the contrary if he errs than he is just a plant illiterate trying to find imaginary things- doing harm fo those who have paid him. If you have such a ardent desire to contradict my assertions, show the diagram and..finita la commedia! It happens I know steam is able to condense from practice and books. peter ps Do you have amnesia regarding the persons who all stated the flowmeter was used to quadruple the flow? You tell sensational things and we have to believe you On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Jed Rothwell mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com>> wrote: There has been some discussion here about the position of the flow meter in Rossi's configuration. I have information from Rossi showing it was located in the gravity return between the customer site and the reservoir. I do not think there was a U pipe but I cannot rule that out 100%. Nothing like that is shown and no one who was there told me there is one -- and I did ask. Anyway, Abd pointed out that Penon described the configuration in one of the lawsuit documents. It is a little hard to understand Penon's English, so Abd added the comments in square brackets: Quote The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools up to its condensation. * – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet into the shelter. It is located along the line of return of the water. between the Plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat. The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the Plant, that receives the water from an external plant [sic, “tank”]. It is conveyed by pumps in [sic, “into”] the unit’s E-cat[s], where it is heated to vaporize. The steam is collected in one tube of the steam line, which conveys it to the outside of the shelter. The water is so recycled to the internal [sic, external] tank in a closed loop. The water is distilled water. The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a water line and a floating valve, so that the level of water inside the internal tank is maintained constant. The water flows from the external tank to the internal tank by gravity. […] * Note from Jed: "Cools up to its condensation" means it cools down until it condenses. This contradicts assertions by Peter Gluck. - Jed -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter
This was dicussed already twice but DeJavu is a reality (see my blog today about the psychological phenomenon). Question: do yu have information from Rossi or you have the piping diagram of the plant showing clearly and exactly (as position) where in the gravity return pipe was placed the flowmeter? Can you ke a look and tell where was placed the main pump (for 1500 kg/hour- floating in the air or firmly placed on the ground? In any case NOT measuring the flow of water which enters directly to the generators and using a 25 times undersized pipe for steam are fatal flaws and if your favorite author Murray got it right than he is the diamond witness for IH. On the contrary if he errs than he is just a plant illiterate trying to find imaginary things- doing harm fo those who have paid him. If you have such a ardent desire to contradict my assertions, show the diagram and..finita la commedia! It happens I know steam is able to condense from practice and books. peter ps Do you have amnesia regarding the persons who all stated the flowmeter was used to quadruple the flow? You tell sensational things and we have to believe you On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > There has been some discussion here about the position of the flow meter > in Rossi's configuration. I have information from Rossi showing it was > located in the gravity return between the customer site and the reservoir. > I do not think there was a U pipe but I cannot rule that out 100%. Nothing > like that is shown and no one who was there told me there is one -- and I > did ask. Anyway, Abd pointed out that Penon described the configuration in > one of the lawsuit documents. It is a little hard to understand Penon's > English, so Abd added the comments in square brackets: > > Quote > > The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools >> up to its condensation. * >> >> – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet into the >> shelter. It is located along the line of return of the water. between the >> Plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat. > > > >> The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the Plant, that >> receives the water from an external plant [sic, “tank”]. >> > > >> It is conveyed by pumps in [sic, “into”] the unit’s E-cat[s], where it is >> heated to vaporize. The steam is collected in one tube of the steam line, >> which conveys it to the outside of the shelter. >> > > >> The water is so recycled to the internal [sic, external] tank in a closed >> loop. The water is distilled water. >> > > >> The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a water line >> and a floating valve, so that the level of water inside the internal tank >> is maintained constant. The water flows from the external tank to the >> internal tank by gravity. […] >> > > > * Note from Jed: "Cools up to its condensation" means it cools down until > it condenses. > > This contradicts assertions by Peter Gluck. > > - Jed > > -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
[Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter
There has been some discussion here about the position of the flow meter in Rossi's configuration. I have information from Rossi showing it was located in the gravity return between the customer site and the reservoir. I do not think there was a U pipe but I cannot rule that out 100%. Nothing like that is shown and no one who was there told me there is one -- and I did ask. Anyway, Abd pointed out that Penon described the configuration in one of the lawsuit documents. It is a little hard to understand Penon's English, so Abd added the comments in square brackets: Quote The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools up > to its condensation. * > > – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet into the > shelter. It is located along the line of return of the water. between the > Plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat. > The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the Plant, that > receives the water from an external plant [sic, “tank”]. > > It is conveyed by pumps in [sic, “into”] the unit’s E-cat[s], where it is > heated to vaporize. The steam is collected in one tube of the steam line, > which conveys it to the outside of the shelter. > > The water is so recycled to the internal [sic, external] tank in a closed > loop. The water is distilled water. > > The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a water line and > a floating valve, so that the level of water inside the internal tank is > maintained constant. The water flows from the external tank to the internal > tank by gravity. […] > * Note from Jed: "Cools up to its condensation" means it cools down until it condenses. This contradicts assertions by Peter Gluck. - Jed
