Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
I went back and looked at the Levi interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vYJIG3ymOk starting at 3:00). Levi says: 3:00 feb 2011 test w/o steam 4:00 system started in an almost explosive way 6:00 15 kw for 18 hours 6:20 we connected the system directly to the water pipe with flux [flow] measuring 1 liter/second 6:50 almost 40 degree delta t -- if you make calculations this is about 120kw 7:11 krivit: what was the power input? levi: less than 1 kw 7:18 rossi was very worried about that and damped (dumped?) the system and restarted the system and obtained about 40kw 7:50 i will not write up that test 15:00 still arguing with krivit about whether to write up the feb 2011 test My sense is that the core was in thermal runaway, and that even at 1 liter/sec they could not cool it enough to get it stable. Rossi then 'dumps' the system (unspecified as to how), quenching the reaction. My guess is that this configuration was not possible to recreate on demand -- it was apparently an unusual event. Anyway -- there are possibly many reasons why a second test of this sort was not performed, not least of which may have been Rossi's disinterest. But my sense is that running the system with liquid water at 1 atm. is not easy, hence Rossi's use of a steam-to-water heat-exchanger in October. Mary -- I see that you are helpfully skeptical of much of what Rossi is putting out. But what I'm missing is a coherent narrative of what you think is happening. You know, people put out theories about how 9/11 was an inside job by pointing out all the inconsistencies. But can they put together an alternate narrative that fits the discrepancies and makes sense? I'm not saying that if you can't do this Rossi is not faking it, but it would be nice to hear a coherent story that you feel explains what is going on. Eric Mary Yugo writes: Eric Woudenberg writes: My guess is that running it with liquid water ends up leaving the core too cold to produce much excess heat. Somehow 100c or thereabouts appears to be the reactor's sweet spot (by accident or design). Well, didn't you just say Levi's experiment alarmed Rossi by running too hot? With liquid coolant, you can control temperature by varying the flow rate of the coolant which is easily done with a manual or automatic valve or even by varying the pressure head of the fluid by simply raising and lowering the container! It's a snap. I used to do something similar when calibrating calorimeters with liquid coolant jackets. And Rossi has claimed that regulating the hydrogen pressure also controls the reaction. Getting a decent coolant flow and delta T should be very doable with a bit of experimenting.
Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
On 11/24/2011 03:13 AM, Axil Axil wrote: I wonder if Rossi will change his tune on testing if Defkalion starts conducting public tests. A little competition is worth a million MYs And a new measurement unit is born. Let this be my modest attempt at a definition: One MY is defined as the skepticism emitted by one trained anonymous scientist with a lot of spare time, during one day(24 hours) of active internet posting. In more informal terms, it can be defined as the cyber flow of skepticism, that is, online skepticism / time. A million or mega MY (mMY) is therefore a relatively big amount of skepticism, equivalent to almost 2738 years of continuous, unabated emission by one determined source. For practical reasons, it's convenient to also define another, related unit. We define therefore the JC, as the amount of online skepticism by unit hour. 1 JC equals then 1/24 MY. A much more manageable, and useful, unit.
Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
Once again, the forum rules seem to apply only to believers. How would they react if I launched a vociferous, irrelevant and pejorative tirade against them here? On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 3:13 AM, Mauro Lacy ma...@lacy.com.ar wrote: On 11/24/2011 03:13 AM, Axil Axil wrote: I wonder if Rossi will change his tune on testing if Defkalion starts conducting public tests. A little competition is worth a million MYs And a new measurement unit is born. Let this be my modest attempt at a definition: One MY is defined as the skepticism emitted by one trained anonymous scientist with a lot of spare time, during one day(24 hours) of active internet posting. In more informal terms, it can be defined as the cyber flow of skepticism, that is, online skepticism / time. A million or mega MY (mMY) is therefore a relatively big amount of skepticism, equivalent to almost 2738 years of continuous, unabated emission by one determined source. For practical reasons, it's convenient to also define another, related unit. We define therefore the JC, as the amount of online skepticism by unit hour. 1 JC equals then 1/24 MY. A much more manageable, and useful, unit.
Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
Eric, I agree with your assessment of what is wrong with 911 conspiracy theories. The problems with these theories is how to coordinate so many people involved in the conspiracy without any of them revealing what happened. In the case of the Rossi story we have mostly him behaving in a completely nonsensical way. It is mostly one person (or few of his associates) that are pulling this off. They don't even have to have a coherent plan in particular if Rossi is paying off few actors and some will participants in this charade. As a scam goes it doesn't make much sense either. But let me remind you that Rossi is not new to scams or/and strange actions involving energy breakthroughs. The last one didn't turn good for him as a scam either. Maybe he is not as good as a scam artist after all. Giovanni On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Eric Woudenberg e...@woudy.org wrote: I went back and looked at the Levi interview ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=0vYJIG3ymOkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vYJIG3ymOkstarting at 3:00). Levi says: 3:00 feb 2011 test w/o steam 4:00 system started in an almost explosive way 6:00 15 kw for 18 hours 6:20 we connected the system directly to the water pipe with flux [flow] measuring 1 liter/second 6:50 almost 40 degree delta t -- if you make calculations this is about 120kw 7:11 krivit: what was the power input? levi: less than 1 kw 7:18 rossi was very worried about that and damped (dumped?) the system and restarted the system and obtained about 40kw 7:50 i will not write up that test 15:00 still arguing with krivit about whether to write up the feb 2011 test My sense is that the core was in thermal runaway, and that even at 1 liter/sec they could not cool it enough to get it stable. Rossi then 'dumps' the system (unspecified as to how), quenching the reaction. My guess is that this configuration was not possible to recreate on demand -- it was apparently an unusual event. Anyway -- there are possibly many reasons why a second test of this sort was not performed, not least of which may have been Rossi's disinterest. But my sense is that running the system with liquid water at 1 atm. is not easy, hence Rossi's use of a steam-to-water heat-exchanger in October. Mary -- I see that you are helpfully skeptical of much of what Rossi is putting out. But what I'm missing is a coherent narrative of what you think is happening. You know, people put out theories about how 9/11 was an inside job by pointing out all the inconsistencies. But can they put together an alternate narrative that fits the discrepancies and makes sense? I'm not saying that if you can't do this Rossi is not faking it, but it would be nice to hear a coherent story that you feel explains what is going on. Eric Mary Yugo writes: Eric Woudenberg writes: My guess is that running it with liquid water ends up leaving the core too cold to produce much excess heat. Somehow 100c or thereabouts appears to be the reactor's sweet spot (by accident or design). Well, didn't you just say Levi's experiment alarmed Rossi by running too hot? With liquid coolant, you can control temperature by varying the flow rate of the coolant which is easily done with a manual or automatic valve or even by varying the pressure head of the fluid by simply raising and lowering the container! It's a snap. I used to do something similar when calibrating calorimeters with liquid coolant jackets. And Rossi has claimed that regulating the hydrogen pressure also controls the reaction. Getting a decent coolant flow and delta T should be very doable with a bit of experimenting.
Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
On Nov 23, 2011, at 23:08, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Sign a contract for delivery, put your money into Escrow and do what ever Black Box test you wish. What is so hard to understand? AG What's hard to understand is how Rossi will prevent you from chopping open your new ecat, analyzing the catalyst, and sending it off to china for mass production? This would make more sense than using it to heat your tool shed.
Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
Rossi seems confident that will not happen or it will take some time. Why would I do that if he sells to me at a good price and provides excellent support? Selling price is not everything in deciding who I buy goods from. Going for the cheapest price is a well proven way to get ripped off. He is quoting public 10 kW system at $0.54 / Watt with a min life of 20 years. Wonder what he quotes for 100 MWs? AG On 11/25/2011 2:59 PM, Charles Hope wrote: On Nov 23, 2011, at 23:08, Aussie Guy E-Cataussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Sign a contract for delivery, put your money into Escrow and do what ever Black Box test you wish. What is so hard to understand? AG What's hard to understand is how Rossi will prevent you from chopping open your new ecat, analyzing the catalyst, and sending it off to china for mass production? This would make more sense than using it to heat your tool shed.
Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
Why would you try to make billions selling knockoff ecats? I don't know, but the thought might occur to some. He can prevent you from doing this by selling it to you at a cheap price? And offering tech support? On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Rossi seems confident that will not happen or it will take some time. Why would I do that if he sells to me at a good price and provides excellent support? Selling price is not everything in deciding who I buy goods from. Going for the cheapest price is a well proven way to get ripped off. He is quoting public 10 kW system at $0.54 / Watt with a min life of 20 years. Wonder what he quotes for 100 MWs? AG On 11/25/2011 2:59 PM, Charles Hope wrote: On Nov 23, 2011, at 23:08, Aussie Guy E-Cataussieguy.e...@gmail.com** wrote: Sign a contract for delivery, put your money into Escrow and do what ever Black Box test you wish. What is so hard to understand? AG What's hard to understand is how Rossi will prevent you from chopping open your new ecat, analyzing the catalyst, and sending it off to china for mass production? This would make more sense than using it to heat your tool shed. -- Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying “behold,” This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew
Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
Good long term business is based on good long term relationships, respect and trust. I have no intention in ripping off anybody, especially Rossi. Power utilities are very cautious and conservative guys. They understand quality, reliability and dealing with the company that did the hard yakka to get the product into the market. So too do I. AG On 11/25/2011 4:35 PM, Charles HOPE wrote: Why would you try to make billions selling knockoff ecats? I don't know, but the thought might occur to some. He can prevent you from doing this by selling it to you at a cheap price? And offering tech support?
Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
- Original Nachricht Von: Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 25.11.2011 05:29 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture On Nov 23, 2011, at 23:08, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Sign a contract for delivery, put your money into Escrow and do what ever Black Box test you wish. What is so hard to understand? AG What's hard to understand is how Rossi will prevent you from chopping open your new ecat, analyzing the catalyst, and sending it off to china for mass production? This would make more sense than using it to heat your tool shed. This should be very welcome to him. It will stop working and the customer looses warranty. So he has no obligation to support the customer anymore but has the money. A more serious problem would be this: If Rossis company grows, he will not be able to serve any of his customers personally. Assumed, Rossis company accuses the customer he has done disallowed experiments or manipulations and damaged the sensitive system and refuses warranty or refuses to deliver the refill catalyst. Because the ecat is secret and confidential and protected by NDA agreements, how can the customer defend himself, if he was accused wrong? If a customer goes to court, and Rossis company stops delivering the catalyst how can the customer prove to court that the ecat never worked? If Rossi refuses a public black-box test, how can he prove to court, that it works? Best regards, Peter Peter
[Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
Hello group, Few know that Sven Kullander of the University of Uppsala today held a lecture on cold fusion in Örebro, Sweden. A person named Hampus Ericsson has made a short, informal report of what happened on the unofficial Andrea Rossi Facebook group page: http://www.facebook.com/EnergyCatalyzer I couldn't stay for all of it because I have a train to catch. The lecture was good. He started by going I've all different types of nuclear power. And then he talked about hot fusion and when that might be functional. Then the good par came, he talked about all the different test that have been made of Rossi's ecat( basically read the Ny Teknik reports. Then he talked about his own test, he said that it proved that heat was made but he couldn't say how, and he dont believe it's cold fusion because that impossible by today's science. But it could only be explained by cold fusion happening. He was very confused :). He also said that Rossi is definitely not a fraud and that his friend Focardi and Levi is absolutely not frauds. They are his friends and he trust them. Rossi on the other had he said to be a black box. (continues) He said that NASA had contacted him and asked about rossis ecat. So NASA was the first American customer that bailed. Apparently they wanted to know how it worked and Rossi wanted to keep the secret for himself. Sven kullander did not know who the final costumer is. He also said that Rossi can be a little bit angry at people who don't trust him. That's why Sven have kept on Rossi god side and never told him that it don't work. Sven said that he have asked Rossi if Uppsala university can independently test the device, with the demand that all information will be reveled to the public. If Rossi says no to this Uppsala will not test the device. One of the most interesting thins was that Sven kullander sad that Focardi and Levi are both excellent professor that he believe a 100% in, Rossi on the other hand is a little bit of a black box. He said that there are two black boxes in this history, Rossi and he ecat. He also said that his colleague Roland Peterson (think that was his name) is very positive on the ecat. Sven also showed the test of the nickel fuel and the copper nickel that is left after the reaction. They will come out with a full article on this when all the testing is done. But the first test show copper in the waste. If Hampus Ericsson is reading, it would be nice and useful if he or anybody else who were there, have a Facebook account (I won't dare creating one) and are in contact with him, put together in a single coherent post their comments and impressions on the event. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:10 PM, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: Hello group, Few know that Sven Kullander of the University of Uppsala today held a lecture on cold fusion in Örebro, Sweden. A person named Hampus Ericsson has made a short, informal report of what happened on the unofficial Andrea Rossi Facebook group page SNIP Thanks. I wonder if anyone asked Kullander about the isotope ratios in the copper ash which are exactly the same as if copper from natural sources was simply added to the ash. Did anyone ask him if he thinks it might be better to hold off a definitive opinion about a scam until there is at least one independent test? And did anyone ask what he thinks about Rossi insists on using the heat of evaporation of water to test the e-cat when simply repeating Levi's test with better controls and documentation would be much more probative?
Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
Mary Yugo writes: Thanks. ... And did anyone ask what he thinks about Rossi insists on using the heat of evaporation of water to test the e-cat when simply repeating Levi's test with better controls and documentation would be much more probative? Hi Mary, I've also wondered about this but I recall Levi saying in a video somewhere that Rossi was actually alarmed during this test that the core was running too hot. My guess is that running it with liquid water ends up leaving the core too cold to produce much excess heat. Somehow 100c or thereabouts appears to be the reactor's sweet spot (by accident or design). I'm on board with you that a few well conducted tests by independent observers would radically change this whole story. I wonder if Rossi will change his tune on testing if Defkalion starts conducting public tests. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
Eric have you reviewed this report: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/Report_Kullander_April_6_2011.pdf Either Rossi, Levi, Kullander, Essen, Leonardi, Focardi and Bianchini are lying about the results or it is real. For me this is way better proof that Rossi does have a working and stable LENR reactor than the 6 Oct or 28 Oct tests. After my review of this data I do understand why Rossi says NO MORE TESTS as those tests would presumably be done to discover his industrial secret under the guise of Trust us Dr. Rossi it is Just Another Test and nothing more. I'm with Rossi, testing time for type kickers is over. You want to test a E-Cat? Simple to do. Sign a contract for delivery, put your money into Escrow and do what ever Black Box test you wish. What is so hard to understand? AG On 11/24/2011 2:28 PM, Eric Woudenberg wrote: Mary Yugo writes: Thanks. ... And did anyone ask what he thinks about Rossi insists on using the heat of evaporation of water to test the e-cat when simply repeating Levi's test with better controls and documentation would be much more probative? Hi Mary, I've also wondered about this but I recall Levi saying in a video somewhere that Rossi was actually alarmed during this test that the core was running too hot. My guess is that running it with liquid water ends up leaving the core too cold to produce much excess heat. Somehow 100c or thereabouts appears to be the reactor's sweet spot (by accident or design). I'm on board with you that a few well conducted tests by independent observers would radically change this whole story. I wonder if Rossi will change his tune on testing if Defkalion starts conducting public tests. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
I wonder if Rossi will change his tune on testing if Defkalion starts conducting public tests. A little competition is worth a million MYs On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 10:58 PM, Eric Woudenberg e...@woudy.org wrote: Mary Yugo writes: Thanks. ... And did anyone ask what he thinks about Rossi insists on using the heat of evaporation of water to test the e-cat when simply repeating Levi's test with better controls and documentation would be much more probative? Hi Mary, I've also wondered about this but I recall Levi saying in a video somewhere that Rossi was actually alarmed during this test that the core was running too hot. My guess is that running it with liquid water ends up leaving the core too cold to produce much excess heat. Somehow 100c or thereabouts appears to be the reactor's sweet spot (by accident or design). I'm on board with you that a few well conducted tests by independent observers would radically change this whole story. I wonder if Rossi will change his tune on testing if Defkalion starts conducting public tests. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
Thanks for the link AG. I agree, based on all the evidence so far it looks to me like Rossi has a working LENR device. Perhaps our different views reflect what we're interested in. If it's simply Rossi's success, I think you're right that he's done enough tests to interest some buyers so that he can start selling eCats now. Certainly if some buyers make favorable reports things will begin to accelerate. But what I'm dreaming about is that point when the world realizes that there's a new physical phenomenon that produces clean and cheap energy. And this hope is not served by Rossi's refusal to do world-convincing tests. In fact, although I appreciate what Rossi's done, I'd be just as happy if someone else (e.g. Defkalion) ends up convincing the world that this is real. Usable LENR is a much bigger deal than Rossi, and I'm frustrated that he's keeping this from taking off in order to serve his own interests. Maybe that's selfish of me -- after all, this frustration is simply about my wishes being thwarted. Why shouldn't he be free to do as he wishes? Eric AG writes: Eric have you reviewed this report:http://www.defkalion-energy.com/Report_Kullander_April_6_2011.pdf EitherRossi, Levi, Kullander, Essen, Leonardi, Focardi and Bianchini are lyingabout the results or it is real. For me this is way better proof thatRossi does have a working and stable LENR reactor than the 6 Oct or 28Oct tests. After my review of this data I do understand why Rossi saysNO MORE TESTS as those tests would presumably be done to discover hisindustrial secret under the guise of Trust us Dr. Rossi it is JustAnother Test and nothing more. I'm with Rossi, testing time for typekickers is over. You want to test a E-Cat? Simple to do. Sign a contractfor delivery, put your money into Escrow and do what ever Black Box testyou wish. What is so hard to understand?
Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Eric Woudenberg e...@woudy.org wrote: Hi Mary, I've also wondered about this but I recall Levi saying in a video somewhere that Rossi was actually alarmed during this test that the core was running too hot. Yes. I heard that too. I have reviewed curve after curve provided by Rossi or people present at his demos and none showed the slightest sign of thermal runaway of any sort. Rossi wraps the small E-cats in a large heater band which can only conduct heat to the metal jacket of the E-cat and just below the metal is the cooling water! He says it's for safety! None of that makes any sense. Rossi also says several E-cats exploded (13 was it?) but he has not one video? And he's not concerned that one he sold might explode? Again: no sense. My guess is that running it with liquid water ends up leaving the core too cold to produce much excess heat. Somehow 100c or thereabouts appears to be the reactor's sweet spot (by accident or design). Well, didn't you just say Levi's experiment alarmed Rossi by running too hot? With liquid coolant, you can control temperature by varying the flow rate of the coolant which is easily done with a manual or automatic valve or even by varying the pressure head of the fluid by simply raising and lowering the container! It's a snap. I used to do something similar when calibrating calorimeters with liquid coolant jackets. And Rossi has claimed that regulating the hydrogen pressure also controls the reaction. Getting a decent coolant flow and delta T should be very doable with a bit of experimenting. I'm on board with you that a few well conducted tests by independent observers would radically change this whole story. Thanks. I wonder if Rossi will change his tune on testing if Defkalion starts conducting public tests. If Defkalion conducts proper and credible independent testing (which I think is excruciatingly unlikely) then Rossi doesn't matter any more. If a practical cold fusion tabletop reactor is shown by anyone, the world will instantly be changed, Rossi or no Rossi. M. Y.
