Re: [Vo]:Ukrainian Paper on the active particle of LENR

[mixent]

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Mon, 27 Jun 2016 15:14:57 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>-Original Message-
>
>>Since bosons can occupy the same place
>
>RVS: No they can't. They can occupy the same quantum state, that is not the
>same thing as the same physical location.
>
>Robin,
>
>We have been through this before. Some bosons, for instance photons, can and
>do occupy the same space since they do not repel each other outside of
>Bose-Einstein statistics ... google "squeezed coherent state"... Massive
>bosons such as helium would not occupy the same space, but that is for
>another reason (interatomic forces, such that gains from the B-E statistics
>cannot overcome a prohibitive electrostatic potential) ... and thus bosonic
>condensed helium will remain about the same density as in the liquid
>non-bosonic state.
>
>However, dense hydrogen, if it becomes bosonic in the inverted Rydberg sense
>(as Miley suggests) is far denser than liquid hydrogen or liquid helium -
>and thus many atoms can appear to occupy the space which a single atom of
>normal density would occupy. Technically, that increased density is not due
>to Bose-Einstein statistics, but objectively the result is the same.

:)
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

RE: [Vo]:Ukrainian Paper on the active particle of LENR

[Roarty, Francis X]

If Naudts is right then relativistic hydrogen could occupy the same spatial 
coordinates while offset on time axis.
Fran

-Original Message-
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2016 6:15 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Ukrainian Paper on the active particle of LENR

-Original Message-

>Since bosons can occupy the same place

RVS: No they can't. They can occupy the same quantum state, that is not the
same thing as the same physical location.

Robin,

We have been through this before. Some bosons, for instance photons, can and
do occupy the same space since they do not repel each other outside of
Bose-Einstein statistics ... google "squeezed coherent state"... Massive
bosons such as helium would not occupy the same space, but that is for
another reason (interatomic forces, such that gains from the B-E statistics
cannot overcome a prohibitive electrostatic potential) ... and thus bosonic
condensed helium will remain about the same density as in the liquid
non-bosonic state.

However, dense hydrogen, if it becomes bosonic in the inverted Rydberg sense
(as Miley suggests) is far denser than liquid hydrogen or liquid helium -
and thus many atoms can appear to occupy the space which a single atom of
normal density would occupy. Technically, that increased density is not due
to Bose-Einstein statistics, but objectively the result is the same.

RE: [Vo]:Ukrainian Paper on the active particle of LENR

[Jones Beene]

Here is the story of a BEC composed of billions of photons occupying the
same space, and accomplished at room temp.

http://www.livescience.com/10288-kind-light-created-physics-breakthrough.htm
l

Think about this in the context of LENR: The photonic BEC is said to have
characteristics of matter. In fact, they could be tailored to have the
mass-energy of a neutron, and are neutral in charge. Can those BEC particles
then operate as virtual neutrons to catalyze nuclear reactions? 

Can the porosity in an alumina tube act as mirrors and to make and capture
these photonic BEC?

Are the Parkhomov or other glow-tube reactors condensing photonic BECs to
supply or catalyze the production of excess energy?

Alternatively, is Holmlid's laser setup making photonic BECs which decay
into muons?

If any of these possibilities is true, there are ways to optimize for
photonic BECs ...

RE: [Vo]:Ukrainian Paper on the active particle of LENR

[Jones Beene]

-Original Message-

>Since bosons can occupy the same place

RVS: No they can't. They can occupy the same quantum state, that is not the
same thing as the same physical location.

Robin,

We have been through this before. Some bosons, for instance photons, can and
do occupy the same space since they do not repel each other outside of
Bose-Einstein statistics ... google "squeezed coherent state"... Massive
bosons such as helium would not occupy the same space, but that is for
another reason (interatomic forces, such that gains from the B-E statistics
cannot overcome a prohibitive electrostatic potential) ... and thus bosonic
condensed helium will remain about the same density as in the liquid
non-bosonic state.

However, dense hydrogen, if it becomes bosonic in the inverted Rydberg sense
(as Miley suggests) is far denser than liquid hydrogen or liquid helium -
and thus many atoms can appear to occupy the space which a single atom of
normal density would occupy. Technically, that increased density is not due
to Bose-Einstein statistics, but objectively the result is the same.

Re: [Vo]:Ukrainian Paper on the active particle of LENR

[mixent]

In reply to  Bob Cook's message of Sun, 26 Jun 2016 14:33:02 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

Jones wrote:

>Since bosons can occupy the same place

No they can't. They can occupy the same quantum state, that is not the same
thing as the same physical location.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Ukrainian Paper on the active particle of LENR

[Ken Deboer]

Hi,
Speaking of heat conduction "and stuff", I ran across an article that could
possibly eventually prove of interest.  A couple of MIT researchers
recently reported that graphene could convert electricity (electrons) into
light through some (to me) miraculous process.  They found phonons and
Cerenkov emissions, for one thing (I've attached the little blurb I'm
refering to).Also, a related thought:   ceramic is a very poor heat
conductor, while on the other hand, graphene is a super duper conductor.
Also, it has a melting point about 4500 C. Graphene as a container?
Best regard, ken deboer

On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 10:19 PM, Bob Cook <frobertc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Jones—
>
>
>
> Convection heat transfer which you suggest would involve a gas or plasma
> with macroscopic motion of the mobile species NECESSARY for distribution of
> kinetic energy.  Would this system imply the nuclear reaction producing the
> anomalous heat resulted in energetic (kinetic energy) particles as opposed
> to higher spin states of the reactants?
>
>
>
> Also what is your judgement as to the speed of the reaction being  slow
> enough to avoid local melting considering the low heat transfer coeff.
> associated with convection cooling? I would think CONDUCTION cooling would
> be faster and more likely than CONVECTION cooling to avoid melting.
>
>
>
> Then again the power density may be low enough to avoid mechanical
> deformations.  I could not find anything about the power density of the
> reaction in the Ukrainian paper.
>
>
>
> Bob Cook
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Jones Beene <jone...@pacbell.net>
> *Sent: *Sunday, June 26, 2016 6:00 PM
> *To: *vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject: *RE: [Vo]:Ukrainian Paper on the active particle of LENR
>
>
>
> *From:* Bob Cook
>
>
>
> But how does the ‘anomalous heat’ get out of the reaction site?  Is it by
> spin coupling of the reacting coherent system, which includes the metal
> lattice?
>
>
>
>
>
> What’s wrong with regular convection? Think of it as sequential
> phase-change, which is continuous over time. It’s just heat at that point.
>
>
>
> BTW - here is one of several interesting papers from 2009…
>
>
> http://lenrcanr.org/acrobat/KidwellDdoesgasloa.pdf=U=0ahUKEwjiiOz1isfNAhVD9GMKHfMTCEEQFggJMAI=internal-uds-cse=AFQjCNE8KOsK3JddH2zxL_2r9-bHkrTPnQ
>
>
>
> … considering the result, e.g. - apparent inaction, when the experiments
> were more than good, would lead the cynic to suspect that the Navy
> converted this technology into a black project of some kind around 2010 or
> thereafter. This would also explain a number of apparently missed
> opportunities in the closing of SPAWARS, ect, ect.
>
>
>
>
>
Title: Researchers discover new way to turn electricity into light, using graphene













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RE: [Vo]:Ukrainian Paper on the active particle of LENR

[Bob Cook]

Jones—

Convection heat transfer which you suggest would involve a gas or plasma with 
macroscopic motion of the mobile species NECESSARY for distribution of kinetic 
energy.  Would this system imply the nuclear reaction producing the anomalous 
heat resulted in energetic (kinetic energy) particles as opposed to higher spin 
states of the reactants?

Also what is your judgement as to the speed of the reaction being  slow enough 
to avoid local melting considering the low heat transfer coeff. associated with 
convection cooling? I would think CONDUCTION cooling would be faster and more 
likely than CONVECTION cooling to avoid melting.

Then again the power density may be low enough to avoid mechanical 
deformations.  I could not find anything about the power density of the 
reaction in the Ukrainian paper.

Bob Cook







Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10


From: Jones Beene<mailto:jone...@pacbell.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2016 6:00 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Ukrainian Paper on the active particle of LENR

From: Bob Cook



But how does the ‘anomalous heat’ get out of the reaction site?  Is it by spin 
coupling of the reacting coherent system, which includes the metal lattice?





What’s wrong with regular convection? Think of it as sequential phase-change, 
which is continuous over time. It’s just heat at that point.



BTW - here is one of several interesting papers from 2009…

 
<http://lenrcanr.org/acrobat/KidwellDdoesgasloa.pdf=U=0ahUKEwjiiOz1isfNAhVD9GMKHfMTCEEQFggJMAI=internal-uds-cse=AFQjCNE8KOsK3JddH2zxL_2r9-bHkrTPnQ>
 
http://lenrcanr.org/acrobat/KidwellDdoesgasloa.pdf=U=0ahUKEwjiiOz1isfNAhVD9GMKHfMTCEEQFggJMAI=internal-uds-cse=AFQjCNE8KOsK3JddH2zxL_2r9-bHkrTPnQ



… considering the result, e.g. - apparent inaction, when the experiments were 
more than good, would lead the cynic to suspect that the Navy converted this 
technology into a black project of some kind around 2010 or thereafter. This 
would also explain a number of apparently missed opportunities in the closing 
of SPAWARS, ect, ect.

RE: [Vo]:Ukrainian Paper on the active particle of LENR

[Jones Beene]

From: Bob Cook 

 

But how does the ‘anomalous heat’ get out of the reaction site?  Is it by spin 
coupling of the reacting coherent system, which includes the metal lattice?

 

 

What’s wrong with regular convection? Think of it as sequential phase-change, 
which is continuous over time. It’s just heat at that point.

 

BTW - here is one of several interesting papers from 2009…

 

 
http://lenrcanr.org/acrobat/KidwellDdoesgasloa.pdf=U=0ahUKEwjiiOz1isfNAhVD9GMKHfMTCEEQFggJMAI=internal-uds-cse=AFQjCNE8KOsK3JddH2zxL_2r9-bHkrTPnQ

 

… considering the result, e.g. - apparent inaction, when the experiments were 
more than good, would lead the cynic to suspect that the Navy converted this 
technology into a black project of some kind around 2010 or thereafter. This 
would also explain a number of apparently missed opportunities in the closing 
of SPAWARS, ect, ect. 

 

 

RE: [Vo]:Ukrainian Paper on the active particle of LENR

[Bob Cook]

Jones—

That’s a nice explanation.  

But how does the “anomalous heat’ get out of the reaction site?  Is it by spin 
coupling of the reacting coherent system, which includes the metal lattice?

Bob Cook

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jones Beene
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2016 1:50 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Ukrainian Paper on the active particle of LENR

The active particle, which is dense neutral hydrogen, brings to mind a 
recurrent theme in LENR, which is D/H exchange – and the further possibility of 
asymmetry in the exchange reaction itself. 

This kind of isotope exchange is energetic and ends up looking like LENR but it 
relates to the zero point field and is non-nuclear. Actually, this subject area 
is not covered in the Ukrainian paper specifically, but maybe it should be. To 
digress further…

Many experiments have shown that the (H/D) exchange reaction results in 
one-time exotherm as the heavier isotope replaces the lighter. The reaction is 
assumed to be chemical and self-limiting – not sequential and not robust. It 
would only be robust if it was made to be asymmetric and continuous instead of 
one-way. 

Some skeptics of LENR suggest that H/D exchange is the only source of heat of 
cold fusion and noot anomalous. Yet… they miss the point that the H/D exchange 
could be the source of anomalous heat in certain situations, and we have a 
strong hint of this already. 

When we focus on tight confinement in a metal matrix along with the 
densification process, we see how net gain can happen in theory. Although two 
fermions cannot occupy the same quantum state (Pauli exclusion) and two bosons 
can, fermions can change to become composite bosons and vice-versa. If they can 
do this very rapidly via fractional electron orbitals, everything becomes 
clearer. The see-saw change in identity (on fast scale from composite boson to 
fermion) is the key to anomalous heat.

With a mix of dissolved H and D and a catalyst, when going in and out of the 
fractional state (UDH, UDD) the proton becomes bosonic on fractionalization, 
since it is bound at nuclear distances to an electron and gains half spin as a 
composite boson; whereas deuterium will become fermionic in the dense state as 
it gains spin. This situation will allow for sequential asymmetry when the 
fractionalization is coincident with the exchange reaction and both are in a 
rapid (planned) state of flux. 

Since bosons can occupy the same place, they adapt to moving into tight 
confinement readily and will displace fermions, but when “reinflated” with a 
change in identity to fermionic, they will be displaced, ad infinitum. You need 
both the exchange and the cross-identity due to fractionalization.

The system is powered by the zero point field and that is the conceptual 
problem. At least it is a credibility problem for now. 

There are few believers in the proposition of zero point energy on a macro 
scale, since it has not yet been linked to any loading anomaly other this one: 
Miley’s paper for thermal gain due to heat release on both loading and 
unloading… 
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/nets2012/pdf/3051.pdf
Lovely paper … if the results could be trusted.

“On the Nuclear Coupling of Proton and Electron” Krasnoholovets et al
http://www.hrpub.org/download/20160530/UJPA6-18406680.pdf
Abstract -- We study both experimentally and theoretically the creation of a 
new physical entity, a particle in which the proton and electron form a stable 
pair with a tiny size typical for a nucleon.
This is a version/interpretation of fractional hydrogen in the role of virtual 
neutron. There are a few errors, and they make reference to some bogus 
research, but this is a very broad sweep and worth reading. Surprisingly 
well-written. No mention of W
They give Mills most of the credit – which they should. Too bad that Mills 
turns out to be such a failure as an inventor (as opposed to his success as a 
theorist) – since he was well-positioned to go down historically as the key 
figure in the field. His latest effort with the seam welder is ludicrous. 
Perhaps it will be a Ukrainian or Russian who will succeed with a usable LENR 
product. They have every incentive to do so, as the short summer will give way 
to early winter before you can say Buck Turgidson.

RE: [Vo]:Ukrainian Paper on the active particle of LENR

[Jones Beene]

The active particle, which is dense neutral hydrogen, brings to mind a
recurrent theme in LENR, which is D/H exchange - and the further possibility
of asymmetry in the exchange reaction itself. 

 

This kind of isotope exchange is energetic and ends up looking like LENR but
it relates to the zero point field and is non-nuclear. Actually, this
subject area is not covered in the Ukrainian paper specifically, but maybe
it should be. To digress further.

 

Many experiments have shown that the (H/D) exchange reaction results in
one-time exotherm as the heavier isotope replaces the lighter. The reaction
is assumed to be chemical and self-limiting - not sequential and not robust.
It would only be robust if it was made to be asymmetric and continuous
instead of one-way. 

 

Some skeptics of LENR suggest that H/D exchange is the only source of heat
of cold fusion and not anomalous. Yet. they miss the point that the H/D
exchange could be the source of anomalous heat in certain situations, and we
have a strong hint of this already. 

 

When we focus on tight confinement in a metal matrix along with the
densification process, we see how net gain can happen in theory. Although
two fermions cannot occupy the same quantum state (Pauli exclusion) and two
bosons can, fermions can change to become composite bosons and vice-versa.
If they can do this very rapidly via fractional electron orbitals,
everything becomes clearer. The see-saw change in identity (on fast scale
from composite boson to fermion) is the key to anomalous heat.

 

With a mix of dissolved H and D and a catalyst, when going in and out of the
fractional state (UDH, UDD) the proton becomes bosonic on fractionalization,
since it is bound at nuclear distances to an electron and gains half spin as
a composite boson; whereas deuterium will become fermionic in the dense
state as it gains spin. This situation will allow for sequential asymmetry
when the fractionalization is coincident with the exchange reaction and both
are in a rapid (planned) state of flux. 

 

Since bosons can occupy the same place, they adapt to moving into tight
confinement readily and will displace fermions, but when "reinflated" with a
change in identity to fermionic, they will be displaced, ad infinitum. You
need both the exchange and the cross-identity due to fractionalization.

 

The system is powered by the zero point field and that is the conceptual
problem. At least it is a credibility problem for now. 

 

There are few believers in the proposition of zero point energy on a macro
scale, since it has not yet been linked to any loading anomaly other this
one: Miley's paper for thermal gain due to heat release on both loading and
unloading. 

 
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/nets2012/pdf/3051.pdf

Lovely paper . if the results could be trusted.

 

"On the Nuclear Coupling of Proton and Electron" Krasnoholovets et al

 
http://www.hrpub.org/download/20160530/UJPA6-18406680.pdf

Abstract -- We study both experimentally and theoretically the creation of a
new physical entity, a particle in which the proton and electron form a
stable pair with a tiny size typical for a nucleon.

This is a version/interpretation of fractional hydrogen in the role of
virtual neutron. There are a few errors, and they make reference to some
bogus research, but this is a very broad sweep and worth reading.
Surprisingly well-written. No mention of W

They give Mills most of the credit - which they should. Too bad that Mills
turns out to be such a failure as an inventor (as opposed to his success as
a theorist) - since he was well-positioned to go down historically as the
key figure in the field. His latest effort with the seam welder is
ludicrous. 

Perhaps it will be a Ukrainian or Russian who will succeed with a usable
LENR product. They have every incentive to do so, as the short summer will
give way to early winter before you can say Buck Turgidson.

[Vo]:Ukrainian Paper on the active particle of LENR

[Jones Beene]

"On the Nuclear Coupling of Proton and Electron" Krasnoholovets et al
http://www.hrpub.org/download/20160530/UJPA6-18406680.pdf

Abstract -- We study both experimentally and theoretically the creation of a
new physical entity, a particle in which the proton and electron form a
stable pair with a tiny size typical for a nucleon.

This is a version/interpretation of fractional hydrogen in the role of
virtual neutron. There are a few errors, and they make reference to some
bogus research, but this is a very broad sweep and worth reading.
Surprisingly well-written. No mention of W

They give Mills most of the credit - which they should. Too bad that Mills
turns out to be such a failure as an inventor (as opposed to his success as
a theorist) - since he was well-positioned to go down historically as the
key figure in the field. His latest effort with the seam welder is
ludicrous. 

Perhaps it will be a Ukrainian or Russian who will succeed with a usable
LENR product. They have every incentive to do so, as the short summer will
give way to early winter before you can say Buck Turgidson.