RE: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China?
Axil: What do you think 'quantum fluctuations' are? According to present-day understanding of what is called the vacuum state or the quantum vacuum, it is by no means a simple empty space, and again: it is a mistake to think of any physical vacuum as some absolutely empty void. According to quantum mechanics, the vacuum state is not truly empty but instead contains fleeting electromagnetic waves and particles that pop into and out of existence. How does one know that the 'low frequency' fluctuations aren't the much lower beat frequency of two or more quantum fluctuations which are at much higher frequencies? Folks, show me an instrument that can measure frequencies of 10^-23 or faster??? Doesn't exist. yet. Is there any wonder why quantum theory is based on probabilities??? I think it's obvious why that is the case.. -mi From: Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:26 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China? http://physics.aps.org/synopsis-for/10.1103/PhysRevLett.109.027202 The Casimir force arises because of quantum fluctuations of the electromagnetic field in the space between two conducting plates. The Drude model predicts that low-frequency fluctuations play no role in the Casimir force and are due to an electrostatic force coming from electrical potential differences on the membrane surface. If the either can be framed in terms of and all pervasive electromagnetic field throughout space, is that what these other names are describing? Cheers:Axil On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:47 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Some kind of ether would be a convenient thing to have for this. I think that's what the zero-point field and Casimir effect is all about. just because this generation chooses to call it by a different name doesn't mean it's different. -Mark Iverson From: Eric Walker [mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:14 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China? On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 3:23 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: As I have suggested in the past, the only way this could work is if momentum is imparted to the vacuum itself, i.e. to the universe as a whole, thus allowing momentum to be conserved. Some kind of ether would be a convenient thing to have for this. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China?
Here is an alternate theory that http://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/0503158v1.pdf *The Casimir Effect and the Quantum Vacuum* * * *In discussions of the cosmological constant, the Casimir effect is often invoked as decisive evidence that the zero point energies of quantum fields are “real”. On the contrary, Casimir effects can be formulated and Casimir forces can be computed without reference to zero point energies.* ** * * *They are relativistic, quantum forces between charges and currents. The Casimir force (per unit area) between parallel plates vanishes as a, the fine structure constant, goes to zero, and the standard result, which appears to be independent of a, corresponds to the a→¥ limit.* In the standard theory, the Casimir force is the zero point energy as calculated by computing the change in the zero point energy of the electromagnetic field when the separation between parallel perfectly conducting plates is changed. The result, of the casimir force equation seems universal, independent of everything except ¯*h*, *c*, and the separation, inviting one to regard it as a property of the vacuum. This, however, is an illusion. When the plates were idealized as perfect conductors, assumptions were made about the properties of the materials and the strength of the QED coupling a, that obscure the fact that the Casimir force originates in the forces between charged particles in the metal plates. This is another way at looking at it. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 2:07 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote: Axil: What do you think ‘quantum fluctuations’ are? ** ** “According to present-day understanding of what is called the vacuum state or the quantum vacuum, it is by no means a simple empty space, and again: it is a mistake to think of any physical vacuum as some absolutely empty void. According to quantum mechanics, the vacuum state is not truly empty but instead contains fleeting electromagnetic waves and particles that pop into and out of existence.” ** ** How does one know that the ‘low frequency’ fluctuations aren’t the much lower beat frequency of two or more quantum fluctuations which are at much higher frequencies? ** ** Folks, show me an instrument that can measure frequencies of 10^-23 or faster??? Doesn’t exist… yet. Is there any wonder why quantum theory is based on probabilities??? I think it’s obvious why that is the case…. ** ** -mi ** ** *From:* Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:26 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China? ** ** http://physics.aps.org/synopsis-for/10.1103/PhysRevLett.109.027202 The Casimir force arises because of quantum fluctuations of the electromagnetic field in the space between two conducting plates. The Drude model predicts that low-frequency fluctuations play no role in the Casimir force and are due to an electrostatic force coming from electrical potential differences on the membrane surface. If the either can be framed in terms of and all pervasive electromagnetic field throughout space, is that what these other names are describing? Cheers:Axil ** ** On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:47 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: “Some kind of ether would be a convenient thing to have for this.” I think that’s what the zero-point field and Casimir effect is all about… just because this generation chooses to call it by a different name doesn’t mean it’s different. -Mark Iverson *From:* Eric Walker [mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:14 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China? On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 3:23 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: As I have suggested in the past, the only way this could work is if momentum is imparted to the vacuum itself, i.e. to the universe as a whole, thus allowing momentum to be conserved. Some kind of ether would be a convenient thing to have for this. Eric ** **
RE: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China?
Nice - if true. The big plus is the connection to Ni-H, which is far from obvious. Even if the emdrive violates one or more physical principles (Laws) such as conservation of momentum, it may still be subject to CoE. But the fact that it works at all, if it does, gives plausible support to the hypothesis of Fran Roarty and others who have been convinced of the many cross-connections of nano-geometry to LENR. These especially involve a dynamical Casimir effect (DCE) as the motive force in Ni-H. Very elegant. Explains the lack of gammas, lack of neutrons, lack of beta radiation, lack of transmutation but the presence of hot protons with no obvious source of acceleration other than the zero point field. Shawyer maintains SR comes into play because the group velocity at either end of his horn are large fractions of the speed of light, creating a tiny differential in radiation pressure which can be multiplied by the Q of the microwave cavity. His microwave source and geometry may amount to a powered segregation of these depletion and concentration zones allowing the device to drive vacuum fluctuations . as opposed to allowing the fluctuations to drive reactions in a Casimir cavity as can happen in Ni-H. Check Fran's site for more info. This also relates to how parts of Mills' theory fit into the picture, without necessarily having to rely on those parts of CQM which we do not like. From: Alan J Fletcher ... With 1000W microwave input, using brass as the material of the cavity, using the classical theory of electrodynamics, the maximum theoretical thrust produced in modes TE011 and TE012 is 411mN and 456mN respectively, and the practical measurements are 214mN and 315mN.
Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China?
This is a remarkable achievement if it can be proven to perform as suggested. I have a problem with the concept of force generation without ejecting mass(or energy). The continual application of a device such as this will result in a significant amount of kinetic energy along with momentum being imparted upon the system. Clearly, a violation of conservation of momentum results. Is there some explanation as to why it is possible to violate this conservation law since it has been proven correct for many years. If the only real proof is mathematical then I suggest that the authors locate the errors in their work. If a working model has been constructed then it should be replicated as soon as possible since it has major implications for physics theory. My suspicion is that this fall into the category of too good to be true. Dave -Original Message- From: Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:50 pm Subject: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China? http://emdrive.com/ Latest news July 2012 An English translation of the 2010 Chinese paper, together with unpublished test results have been obtained. The last line of the paper confirms that experimental thrust measurements have been made at 1kW input power. The unpublished test results show a large number of thrust measurements at input powers up to 2.5kW. The mean specific thrust obtained is close to that measured in the SPR flight thruster tests. Note that the Chinese thruster, if deployed on the ISS, would easily provide the necessary delta V to compensate for orbital decay, thus eliminating the need for the reboost/refueling missions. The original 2010 paper, the translation and the unpublished test results are given here: NWPU 2010 paper (Chinese) http://www.emdrive.com/NWPU2010paper.pdf NWPU 2010 paper (English translation) http://www.emdrive.com/NWPU2010translation.pdf NWPU 2010 unpublished test results http://www.emdrive.com/NWPU2010testresults.pdf Conclusion : ... With 1000W microwave input, using brass as the material of the cavity, using the classical theory of electrodynamics, the maximum theoretical thrust produced in modes TE011 and TE012 is 411mN and 456mN respectively, and the practical measurements are 214mN and 315mN. (lenr.qumbu.com -- analyzing the Rossi/Focardi eCat -- and the defkalion hyperion -- Hi, google!)
Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China?
In reply to David Roberson's message of Wed, 25 Jul 2012 18:10:17 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] This is a remarkable achievement if it can be proven to perform as suggested. I have a problem with the concept of force generation without ejecting mass(or energy). The continual application of a device such as this will result in a significant amount of kinetic energy along with momentum being imparted upon the system. Clearly, a violation of conservation of momentum results. As I have suggested in the past, the only way this could work is if momentum is imparted to the vacuum itself, i.e. to the universe as a whole, thus allowing momentum to be conserved. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China?
That is true Robin. And if momentum can be imparted upon the vacuum then perhaps this is a hint that warp drives might be possible. Dave -Original Message- From: mixent mix...@bigpond.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China? In reply to David Roberson's message of Wed, 25 Jul 2012 18:10:17 -0400 (EDT): i, snip] This is a remarkable achievement if it can be proven to perform as suggested. have a problem with the concept of force generation without ejecting mass(or nergy). The continual application of a device such as this will result in a ignificant amount of kinetic energy along with momentum being imparted upon the ystem. Clearly, a violation of conservation of momentum results. As I have suggested in the past, the only way this could work is if momentum is mparted to the vacuum itself, i.e. to the universe as a whole, thus allowing omentum to be conserved. snip] egards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
RE: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China?
Thanks Jones, I was thinking about jumping in but you put it much more succinctly than I could have managed! Fran From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 6:08 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China? Nice - if true. The big plus is the connection to Ni-H, which is far from obvious. Even if the emdrive violates one or more physical principles (Laws) such as conservation of momentum, it may still be subject to CoE. But the fact that it works at all, if it does, gives plausible support to the hypothesis of Fran Roarty and others who have been convinced of the many cross-connections of nano-geometry to LENR. These especially involve a dynamical Casimir effect (DCE) as the motive force in Ni-H. Very elegant. Explains the lack of gammas, lack of neutrons, lack of beta radiation, lack of transmutation but the presence of hot protons with no obvious source of acceleration other than the zero point field. Shawyer maintains SR comes into play because the group velocity at either end of his horn are large fractions of the speed of light, creating a tiny differential in radiation pressure which can be multiplied by the Q of the microwave cavity. His microwave source and geometry may amount to a powered segregation of these depletion and concentration zones allowing the device to drive vacuum fluctuations ... as opposed to allowing the fluctuations to drive reactions in a Casimir cavity as can happen in Ni-H. Check Fran's site for more info. This also relates to how parts of Mills' theory fit into the picture, without necessarily having to rely on those parts of CQM which we do not like. From: Alan J Fletcher ... With 1000W microwave input, using brass as the material of the cavity, using the classical theory of electrodynamics, the maximum theoretical thrust produced in modes TE011 and TE012 is 411mN and 456mN respectively, and the practical measurements are 214mN and 315mN.
RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China?
I think the claims of time dilation and anomalous decay rates also support this claim of thrust because we are upsetting the normal perpendicular relationship between 3D space and time and it is by this method we are indirectly accumulating thrust in a biased manner - a specific vector instead of a balanced cancellation - I don't see this as something for nothing but rather taking a normally balanced spatial displacement and using SR via suppression to convert some of the spatial displacement into temporal. 1. From long ago: I have been investigating a claim by Jan Naudts that the controversial hydrino and excess heat associated with atomic hydrogen and casimir cavities can be explained by relativity. Now Shawyer seems to be reversing the process using microwaves to bend spacetime to amplify radiation pressure. I have to admit there are a growing number of clues to make me consider this plausible. cavity QED in 1996 proposed broken isotropy in a Casimir cavity resulting in an abrupt equivalence boundary formed by the cavity walls. the shielded cavity decelerates relative to outside the walls possibly explaining catalytic action from a relativistic perspective. the cavity is spatially stationary but drags behind the gravitational field falling outside of it. microwave cavities like Puthoff used to explain suppression of spontaneous emission are powered by microwaves and appear to accelerate orbitals diffused inside - The relativistic interpretation of suppression is that the atoms are time dilated and from their perspective the spontaneous emission occurs at the normal rate. Likewise Shawyers cavity is bending space time relative to outside the cavity and even if the chamber is evacuated bent space time has a different gravitational rate proportional to time dilation. My theory is that these forces always balance in an effort to restore isotropy for instance the depletion zone in a Casimir cavity would be balanced by a concentration zone of vacuum fluctuations in the nuclei of the cavity walls due to plate like geometry. Shawyer does not need this trick to sum a depletion zone because he isn't looking for heat -he uses a microwave source and wave guide geometry to forcibly break the isotropy -I am sure the balance between isolation and concentration zones is still maintained but his device is marginally isolating one type over the other and may be using geometry to repeatedly sweep this slight differential in space time over the same spatial axis. see http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/blog/7200-alternate-theory-hydrino-based-relativity-26779.html From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 6:29 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China? That is true Robin. And if momentum can be imparted upon the vacuum then perhaps this is a hint that warp drives might be possible. Dave -Original Message- From: mixent mix...@bigpond.commailto:mix...@bigpond.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.commailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China? In reply to David Roberson's message of Wed, 25 Jul 2012 18:10:17 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] This is a remarkable achievement if it can be proven to perform as suggested. I have a problem with the concept of force generation without ejecting mass(or energy). The continual application of a device such as this will result in a significant amount of kinetic energy along with momentum being imparted upon the system. Clearly, a violation of conservation of momentum results. As I have suggested in the past, the only way this could work is if momentum is imparted to the vacuum itself, i.e. to the universe as a whole, thus allowing momentum to be conserved. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
RE: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China?
Corrected link http://scienceblog.com/19440/alternate-theory-for-hydrino-based-on-casimir-cavities/ From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 6:08 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China? Nice - if true. The big plus is the connection to Ni-H, which is far from obvious. Even if the emdrive violates one or more physical principles (Laws) such as conservation of momentum, it may still be subject to CoE. But the fact that it works at all, if it does, gives plausible support to the hypothesis of Fran Roarty and others who have been convinced of the many cross-connections of nano-geometry to LENR. These especially involve a dynamical Casimir effect (DCE) as the motive force in Ni-H. Very elegant. Explains the lack of gammas, lack of neutrons, lack of beta radiation, lack of transmutation but the presence of hot protons with no obvious source of acceleration other than the zero point field. Shawyer maintains SR comes into play because the group velocity at either end of his horn are large fractions of the speed of light, creating a tiny differential in radiation pressure which can be multiplied by the Q of the microwave cavity. His microwave source and geometry may amount to a powered segregation of these depletion and concentration zones allowing the device to drive vacuum fluctuations ... as opposed to allowing the fluctuations to drive reactions in a Casimir cavity as can happen in Ni-H. Check Fran's site for more info. This also relates to how parts of Mills' theory fit into the picture, without necessarily having to rely on those parts of CQM which we do not like. From: Alan J Fletcher ... With 1000W microwave input, using brass as the material of the cavity, using the classical theory of electrodynamics, the maximum theoretical thrust produced in modes TE011 and TE012 is 411mN and 456mN respectively, and the practical measurements are 214mN and 315mN.
Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China?
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 3:23 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: As I have suggested in the past, the only way this could work is if momentum is imparted to the vacuum itself, i.e. to the universe as a whole, thus allowing momentum to be conserved. Some kind of ether would be a convenient thing to have for this. Eric
RE: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China?
“Some kind of ether would be a convenient thing to have for this.” I think that’s what the zero-point field and Casimir effect is all about… just because this generation chooses to call it by a different name doesn’t mean it’s different. -Mark Iverson From: Eric Walker [mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:14 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China? On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 3:23 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: As I have suggested in the past, the only way this could work is if momentum is imparted to the vacuum itself, i.e. to the universe as a whole, thus allowing momentum to be conserved. Some kind of ether would be a convenient thing to have for this. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China?
http://physics.aps.org/synopsis-for/10.1103/PhysRevLett.109.027202 The Casimir force arises because of quantum fluctuations of the electromagnetic field in the space between two conducting plates. The Drude model predicts that low-frequency fluctuations play no role in the Casimir force and are due to an electrostatic force coming from electrical potential differences on the membrane surface. If the either can be framed in terms of and all pervasive electromagnetic field throughout space, is that what these other names are describing? Cheers:Axil On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:47 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote: “Some kind of ether would be a convenient thing to have for this.” ** ** I think that’s what the zero-point field and Casimir effect is all about… just because this generation chooses to call it by a different name doesn’t mean it’s different. -Mark Iverson ** ** *From:* Eric Walker [mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:14 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Sawyer's emdrive alive and kicking in China? ** ** On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 3:23 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: ** ** As I have suggested in the past, the only way this could work is if momentum is imparted to the vacuum itself, i.e. to the universe as a whole, thus allowing momentum to be conserved. ** ** Some kind of ether would be a convenient thing to have for this. ** ** Eric ** **
