Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[David Roberson]

I just want to inject a thought about the NAE regions.  The current flowing 
within the device and the electrolyte will induce a magnetic field within the 
active metal.  At the moment I am not aware of any attempt to control the 
direction of the lines of force that are present and wonder if this might be 
one of the secret ingredients controlling the reaction.  It might help explain 
why the same wire behaved differently at various times since this variable in 
uncontrolled.   There were experiments that indicated that an external field 
modified the plating and pitting.

Just a thought.

Dave



-Original Message-
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax 
To: vortex-l ; vortex-l 
Sent: Thu, Jul 19, 2012 9:02 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)


At 07:09 PM 7/19/2012, Jed Rothwell wrote:
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <<mailto:a...@lomaxdesign.com>a...@lomaxdesign.com> wrote:

Well, Jed, you may be right. However, when I wrote that Pons and 
Fleischmann only had one out of six cells work -- I really don't 
recall where I got that idea, and it might be from later work, 
whatever -- I was immediately corrected with a claim from someone 
who was active in the field at the time that they *all* worked, 
until they ran out of the original material.

I don't recall hearing that happened to F&P. But it did happen to 
several others. McKubre, I think. He later used a long wire in 
loading tests. As I recall he did not even cut it. I may be wrong 
about that. Anyway, he pre-treated the whole thing and then tested 
sections of it. He found they had very different characteristics! 
There is no better proof that we do not understand Pd in detail, and 
that More Research Is Needed. This also demonstrates that material 
is the key and materials are variable for unknown reasons.
The whole field was nailed to the crucifix of "reliability." Once a 
orrelated effect was known (helium), reliability was almost 
rrelevant, all that was needed was to set up an experimental series 
ith some percentage of cells showing adequate excess heat. 
ifficult, still, but lots of researchers did it. And those that 
idn't, and that still also measured helium, still created more data 
or the showing of heat/helium correlation.
In any case, it's known *reasonably well* the reasons for the 
ariability with palladium. It is obvious that palladium shifts in 
anostructure when loaded and deloaded, in addition to structural 
ariations from pre-experiment fabrication. The most clear evidence 
or material variability is SRI P13/P14, where the *same cathode* 
wice showed no heat, highly loaded with deuterium, then, the third 
ime, same conditions repeated, showed a clear excess heat response, 
ay above noise, standing out from the hydrogen control.
Storms may be right about cracks being the NAE. It makes sense. When 
he cracks are too large, the material is too leaky, it won't reach 
he necessary loading. When they are too small, or the material is 
erfect, no reaction. The loading stresses the material and it 
racks, but that's not very well controlled, it's difficult to 
eproduce exactly.
I've suggested plating palladium on a substrate that can be 
ylindrically deformed in a controlled way, to create rows of 
ontrolled cracks that might be open and closed by changing the 
eformation radius. If ideas were horses
I *am* hot on the trail of a "tell," a sign (not known to be nuclear 
n itself) that might be useful to detect CF reactions in the FPHE 
ithout full-on calorimetry. We'll see. This field often leads down 
lind alleys. But this idea seems to have woken a few people up. 

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 07:09 PM 7/19/2012, Jed Rothwell wrote:

Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <a...@lomaxdesign.com> wrote:

Well, Jed, you may be right. However, when I wrote that Pons and 
Fleischmann only had one out of six cells work -- I really don't 
recall where I got that idea, and it might be from later work, 
whatever -- I was immediately corrected with a claim from someone 
who was active in the field at the time that they *all* worked, 
until they ran out of the original material.


I don't recall hearing that happened to F&P. But it did happen to 
several others. McKubre, I think. He later used a long wire in 
loading tests. As I recall he did not even cut it. I may be wrong 
about that. Anyway, he pre-treated the whole thing and then tested 
sections of it. He found they had very different characteristics! 
There is no better proof that we do not understand Pd in detail, and 
that More Research Is Needed. This also demonstrates that material 
is the key and materials are variable for unknown reasons.


The whole field was nailed to the crucifix of "reliability." Once a 
correlated effect was known (helium), reliability was almost 
irrelevant, all that was needed was to set up an experimental series 
with some percentage of cells showing adequate excess heat. 
Difficult, still, but lots of researchers did it. And those that 
didn't, and that still also measured helium, still created more data 
for the showing of heat/helium correlation.


In any case, it's known *reasonably well* the reasons for the 
variability with palladium. It is obvious that palladium shifts in 
nanostructure when loaded and deloaded, in addition to structural 
variations from pre-experiment fabrication. The most clear evidence 
for material variability is SRI P13/P14, where the *same cathode* 
twice showed no heat, highly loaded with deuterium, then, the third 
time, same conditions repeated, showed a clear excess heat response, 
way above noise, standing out from the hydrogen control.


Storms may be right about cracks being the NAE. It makes sense. When 
the cracks are too large, the material is too leaky, it won't reach 
the necessary loading. When they are too small, or the material is 
perfect, no reaction. The loading stresses the material and it 
cracks, but that's not very well controlled, it's difficult to 
reproduce exactly.


I've suggested plating palladium on a substrate that can be 
cylindrically deformed in a controlled way, to create rows of 
controlled cracks that might be open and closed by changing the 
deformation radius. If ideas were horses


I *am* hot on the trail of a "tell," a sign (not known to be nuclear 
in itself) that might be useful to detect CF reactions in the FPHE 
without full-on calorimetry. We'll see. This field often leads down 
blind alleys. But this idea seems to have woken a few people up. 

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Jed Rothwell]

Abd ul-Rahman Lomax  wrote:


> Well, Jed, you may be right. However, when I wrote that Pons and
> Fleischmann only had one out of six cells work -- I really don't recall
> where I got that idea, and it might be from later work, whatever -- I was
> immediately corrected with a claim from someone who was active in the field
> at the time that they *all* worked, until they ran out of the original
> material.
>

I don't recall hearing that happened to F&P. But it did happen to several
others. McKubre, I think. He later used a long wire in loading tests. As I
recall he did not even cut it. I may be wrong about that. Anyway, he
pre-treated the whole thing and then tested sections of it. He found they
had very different characteristics! There is no better proof that we do not
understand Pd in detail, and that More Research Is Needed. This also
demonstrates that material is the key and materials are variable for
unknown reasons.



> If you would describe the history, in detail, of your effort "years later"
> in cooperation with Fleischmann, it would be valuable for the history of
> this scientific fiasco.
>

There isn't much to tell. We talked about it. Martin called J-M. They
quoted a price that I personally could not afford, and I could not find
other people interested in chipping in. It was a long time ago and I do not
recall the details, but it is all in my letters and e-mail.



> (It *also* occurs that I misread and misremember what I've read. For
> example, I wrote many times that Miles had such and such success, showing
> excess heat in so many out of so many cells. That was based on reports that
> actually didn't show that many "cells." They were written about *samples*,
> many taken from the same cell, at different times.


Well, we use the terms interchangeably. He has several cells. Anyway, the
numbers in the report I cited refer to individual Pd cathodes.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 01:30 PM 7/19/2012, Jed Rothwell wrote:

Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <a...@lomaxdesign.com> wrote:

Do people here know that Pons and Fleischmann were seeing 100% of 
their cells showing excess heat at the time that they announced?


I do not recall that every sample worked. Most of them did. It was 
no mystery why. This was Pd developed by Johnson-Matthey for 
hydrogen filters. Fleischmann explained that to anyone who asked, 
and he gave out samples of the material. As he said: "When Uncle 
Martin gives you palladium, it works. When you get some other 
sample, it doesn't work. Think about that!"


He gave 4 samples to Mel Miles and they all worked. See Table 10:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf

JM = Johnson Matthey. Most worked

F/P = JM material from Uncle Martin.

The hydrogen filter machines themselves produce strong cold fusion 
effects with deuterium. As far as I know they have every time 
someone tried one.


Read the Storms paper "How to Produce the Fleischmann-Pons Effect." 
You will see that hydrogen filter material requires a set of 
characteristics similar to cold fusion. The filters, so they do not 
leak; cold fusion, so that it loads. See:


http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEhowtoprodu.pdf 




That they had this success until they ran out of the original batch 
of palladium; they had not even suspected that the effect might be 
batch sensitive . . .



Nonsense. The first thing he ever told me was that the material is 
critical, and you should ask Uncle Martin for some. By 1989 everyone 
knew the material was critical.


Well, Jed, you may be right. However, when I wrote that Pons and 
Fleischmann only had one out of six cells work -- I really don't 
recall where I got that idea, and it might be from later work, 
whatever -- I was immediately corrected with a claim from someone who 
was active in the field at the time that they *all* worked, until 
they ran out of the original material.


The truth may be somewhere south of "always." The claim that they 
didn't understand that the effect was batch-specific might be a bit 
different from what you apparently think. Consistent with both these 
descriptions would be that they thought that Johnson-Matthey material 
would be fine, that's what they were using, and other people were 
failing with material from other sources.


Then they ran out of material, bought more from Johnson-Matthey, and 
couldn't get the effect to show up!


The fact here, if we can ascertain it: did they use up the last of 
the original Johnson-Matthey material, leaving none for analysis in 
case a problem showed up? The report I read was very specific about 
this, naming the assistant who actually used the material.


It was not merely supplier-specific, it was batch-specific. I've also 
heard that Johnson-Matthey changed their process, which might explain 
it. If I were being paid as a reporter, I'd be making lots of calls 
and sending piles of emails, trying to dig up testimony.


, *so they didn't even keep any of the original material.* The rest 
is history



What history? They got more material and it worked fine, as far as I 
know. When they were in France they ran 64 cells at a time, and all 
64 worked. They were all pushed into a boil-off event followed by 
heat after death. It as all J-M material, in a joint venture with 
J-M and Toyota. The project came to an abrupt end when J-M and 
Toyota got into a fight over intellectual property.


Years later Fleischmann and I tried to buy a kilogram of the stuff 
but we could not raise the money. J-M no longer makes it by the old 
technique but they offered to make some for us.


It seems likely that the material made with the newer process will 
also work. The new process is cleaner and requires fewer toxic materials.


Jed, your account appears to conflict with what I've been told by 
others whom I would *also* expect to know what they are talking 
about. I'm interested in your personal account, because it may carry 
more weight than something that was for others, even if they 
confidently asserted it, who really just were transmitting rumors.


If you would describe the history, in detail, of your effort "years 
later" in cooperation with Fleischmann, it would be valuable for the 
history of this scientific fiasco.


(It *also* occurs that I misread and misremember what I've read. For 
example, I wrote many times that Miles had such and such success, 
showing excess heat in so many out of so many cells. That was based 
on reports that actually didn't show that many "cells." They were 
written about *samples*, many taken from the same cell, at different 
times. The report itself did make it clear, but I'd read summaries of 
Miles by others, that weren't *wrong*, but that were more easily 
misinterpreted. What fascinates me, and somewhat horrifies me, is 
that 

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Alain Sepeda]

seems rational.

Rossi have a big history of hiding problems, and anticipating success.
DGT seems more rational, but you can have various opinions. mine is
optimistic.

I interpret the silence after the tests as new tests and as stability
problems that push them, rationally to stop claiming much.
Then they started to communicate when they get more confident.
maybe the problem was not stability, but the "business trust"???

many speculation, and many opinion based on various heuristics, of various
experience in life...


2012/7/19 Abd ul-Rahman Lomax 

> The speculation is pretty reasonable. While I prefer to leave all the
> cards on the table until we know more, I'll say that the behavior of Rossi
> and DGT has been consistent with a hypothesis that Rossi did see some kind
> of major heat effect, and maybe even had some cells -- or a single cell --
> show long-term heat.
>
> Do people here know that Pons and Fleischmann were seeing 100% of their
> cells showing excess heat at the time that they announced? That they had
> this success until they ran out of the original batch of palladium; they
> had not even suspected that the effect might be batch sensitive, *so they
> didn't even keep any of the original material.* The rest is history
>
> Rossi is optimistic about his own ability to solve problems. But
> reliability has *always* been the largest problem with cold fusion/LENR. It
> appears that when a reaction finally works, it tends to poison itself,
> devices may work for hours or days, generating amazing levels of heat, then
> they stop working. Other setups seemingly the same don't work, or don't
> work nearly as well.
>
> Rossi would not be the first inventor to exaggerate reliability and
> perhaps to fudge some results, all in a good cause. After all, he'll have
> the problems solved by next week, next month, next year
>
> This is consistent with Rossi lowering his announced COP, and also with
> his focus on delivering large units, consisting of many small ones. It is
> one thing if half the units in a megawatt assembly aren't working, but the
> ones that work provide enough power to meet minimum specifications, and
> quite another to sell many individual units, and many of them don't work or
> stop working quickly.
>
> (And the megawatt unit might work on delivery, but then )
>
> Applying this to DGT, we may speculate that they did see sufficient
> evidence to be certain that there is a heat effect. "But, folks, we have a
> few details to work out ... "
>
> Details that large numbers of people have worked on for twenty years
> without success adequate for a commercial product.
>
> Okay, NiH work wasn't previously the subject of such intense
> investigation, and many people, I think, doubted that NiH even worked. It
> probably does, but that's not at all the end of the question!
>
>
> At 01:02 AM 7/19/2012, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote:
>
>> The following is all speculation, but I think it’s pretty clear what when
>> down…
>>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Jed Rothwell]

Abd ul-Rahman Lomax  wrote:

Do people here know that Pons and Fleischmann were seeing 100% of their
> cells showing excess heat at the time that they announced?


I do not recall that every sample worked. Most of them did. It was no
mystery why. This was Pd developed by Johnson-Matthey for hydrogen
filters. Fleischmann explained that to anyone who asked, and he gave out
samples of the material. As he said: "When Uncle Martin gives you
palladium, it works. When you get some other sample, it doesn't work. Think
about that!"

He gave 4 samples to Mel Miles and they all worked. See Table 10:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf

JM = Johnson Matthey. Most worked

F/P = JM material from Uncle Martin.

The hydrogen filter machines themselves produce strong cold fusion effects
with deuterium. As far as I know they have every time someone tried one.

Read the Storms paper "How to Produce the Fleischmann-Pons Effect." You
will see that hydrogen filter material requires a set of characteristics
similar to cold fusion. The filters, so they do not leak; cold fusion, so
that it loads. See:

http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEhowtoprodu.pdf



> That they had this success until they ran out of the original batch of
> palladium; they had not even suspected that the effect might be batch
> sensitive . . .


Nonsense. The first thing he ever told me was that the material is
critical, and you should ask Uncle Martin for some. By 1989 everyone knew
the material was critical.



> , *so they didn't even keep any of the original material.* The rest is
> history
>

What history? They got more material and it worked fine, as far as I know.
When they were in France they ran 64 cells at a time, and all 64 worked.
They were all pushed into a boil-off event followed by heat after death. It
as all J-M material, in a joint venture with J-M and Toyota. The project
came to an abrupt end when J-M and Toyota got into a fight over
intellectual property.

Years later Fleischmann and I tried to buy a kilogram of the stuff but we
could not raise the money. J-M no longer makes it by the old technique but
they offered to make some for us.

It seems likely that the material made with the newer process will also
work. The new process is cleaner and requires fewer toxic materials.



> Okay, NiH work wasn't previously the subject of such intense
> investigation, and many people, I think, doubted that NiH even worked. It
> probably does, but that's not at all the end of the question!


That is true. Mike McKubre said this at the recent conference. He said they
tried Ni-H at SRI, did not get a significant result, so he abandoned it. He
came hurrying back after Rossi made a splash. He re-evaluated Piantelli and
others. He now thinks it does work, after all.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Alain Sepeda]

the two claimed change in the test are the following :
- first they did full calorimetry, while they initially wanted just rough
test to convince skeptics...
- second they decided to make analysis of burned reactants

What seems evident is that the testers take the control of the situation,
which is logic, since they are bigger . I suspect that it is the testers
who ask DGT to sign a NDA, so they can keep the data hidden until all is
complete and they can ALL talk together, which each organization protecting
the credibility of other.

I know big organization, state owned organization, and it is clear that
facing a small company like DGT they will set their conditions, not the
opposite.

don't forget that those organization, and especially the executives, are
very afraid to look ridiculous, or even to be accused to work on satanic
LENR.
as I've heard in the Army, when you do something stupid in group , it will
be right.
If you do anything alone, even good, it will be disobedience, and the
officer will be furious.

maybe also they met some problems, and communicate only recently whet they
solved them. Note also that they admit that above 550C it can be unstable.


2012/7/19 Akira Shirakawa 

> On 2012-07-19 17:11, Alain Sepeda wrote:
>
>> the problem seems to be that client don't trust a greek company,
>> so they don't pay, yet.
>> Don't forget that they talk about Escrow account.
>> maybe also the payment is spread in time.
>>
>> for now maybe they only have debt and technology.
>>
>> another reason is that they might try to make pressure about tax
>> regulation, EU/government warranty or EU/government funding. This looks
>> sharky, but it is common in everyday big business.
>>
>
>
> Then, if they really do have the technology and if it works by generating
> commercial amounts of fully controllable, repeatable, cheap, high quality
> excess heat, why do they paint themselves into a corner by delaying the
> publication of test data, third party validations, certifications, etc? Why
> wait for ICCF-17, which is after all a relatively obscure event (in the
> sense that mostly just people "in the works" or dedicated LENR followers
> know about it) ? Wouldn't it be in their best interest to unveil such
> results to a much wider and wealthy audience? What am I missing here?
>
> Wouldn't publicly and undeniably demonstrating such a groundbreaking
> technology bring investors from all over the world and quickly secure
> DGTG's status (we're supposedly not dealing with milliwatts, watts, or
> dozens of watts, but Kilowatts of continuous power)? The more I think about
> it, the less everything makes sense.
>
> I'm still convinced that their latest email *just has* to be a fake/ weird
> misinterpretation of the actual facts, because it would be the beginning of
> a huge train wreck otherwise.
>
> LENR: not for the impatient.
> S.A.
>
>

RE: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

The speculation is pretty reasonable. While I 
prefer to leave all the cards on the table until 
we know more, I'll say that the behavior of Rossi 
and DGT has been consistent with a hypothesis 
that Rossi did see some kind of major heat 
effect, and maybe even had some cells -- or a 
single cell -- show long-term heat.


Do people here know that Pons and Fleischmann 
were seeing 100% of their cells showing excess 
heat at the time that they announced? That they 
had this success until they ran out of the 
original batch of palladium; they had not even 
suspected that the effect might be batch 
sensitive, *so they didn't even keep any of the 
original material.* The rest is history


Rossi is optimistic about his own ability to 
solve problems. But reliability has *always* been 
the largest problem with cold fusion/LENR. It 
appears that when a reaction finally works, it 
tends to poison itself, devices may work for 
hours or days, generating amazing levels of heat, 
then they stop working. Other setups seemingly 
the same don't work, or don't work nearly as well.


Rossi would not be the first inventor to 
exaggerate reliability and perhaps to fudge some 
results, all in a good cause. After all, he'll 
have the problems solved by next week, next month, next year


This is consistent with Rossi lowering his 
announced COP, and also with his focus on 
delivering large units, consisting of many small 
ones. It is one thing if half the units in a 
megawatt assembly aren't working, but the ones 
that work provide enough power to meet minimum 
specifications, and quite another to sell many 
individual units, and many of them don't work or stop working quickly.


(And the megawatt unit might work on delivery, but then )

Applying this to DGT, we may speculate that they 
did see sufficient evidence to be certain that 
there is a heat effect. "But, folks, we have a few details to work out ... "


Details that large numbers of people have worked 
on for twenty years without success adequate for a commercial product.


Okay, NiH work wasn't previously the subject of 
such intense investigation, and many people, I 
think, doubted that NiH even worked. It probably 
does, but that's not at all the end of the question!


At 01:02 AM 7/19/2012, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote:
The following is all speculation, but I think 
it’s pretty clear what when down…

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Akira Shirakawa]

On 2012-07-19 17:11, Alain Sepeda wrote:

the problem seems to be that client don't trust a greek company,
so they don't pay, yet.
Don't forget that they talk about Escrow account.
maybe also the payment is spread in time.

for now maybe they only have debt and technology.

another reason is that they might try to make pressure about tax
regulation, EU/government warranty or EU/government funding. This looks
sharky, but it is common in everyday big business.



Then, if they really do have the technology and if it works by 
generating commercial amounts of fully controllable, repeatable, cheap, 
high quality excess heat, why do they paint themselves into a corner by 
delaying the publication of test data, third party validations, 
certifications, etc? Why wait for ICCF-17, which is after all a 
relatively obscure event (in the sense that mostly just people "in the 
works" or dedicated LENR followers know about it) ? Wouldn't it be in 
their best interest to unveil such results to a much wider and wealthy 
audience? What am I missing here?


Wouldn't publicly and undeniably demonstrating such a groundbreaking 
technology bring investors from all over the world and quickly secure 
DGTG's status (we're supposedly not dealing with milliwatts, watts, or 
dozens of watts, but Kilowatts of continuous power)? The more I think 
about it, the less everything makes sense.


I'm still convinced that their latest email *just has* to be a fake/ 
weird misinterpretation of the actual facts, because it would be the 
beginning of a huge train wreck otherwise.


LENR: not for the impatient.
S.A.

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[ecat builder]

If there are hundreds of investors, there should be hundreds of
investigators doing "due diligence" research on the technology. Due
diligence would include talking to experts in the field. Most agents would
be willing to share news of the deal in return for quality information from
the expert.
Q: This group is filled with experts. How many here have been contacted by
an agent of a potential investor? (If you want to remain anonymous in your
answer, you can email me offline..)

Second issue is the lack of leaks. An NDA signed by tens or hundreds of
people will be broken. Whether employees, investors, or government types..
I find it difficult to think that a bonafide working technology that could
alter the world would remain secret.

Yet another question mark.. nobody knows where Rossi goes every day to work
on his devices? How about DGT and their factory... any testing lab would be
generating a lot of waste heat.. How many cars in the Xanthi factory
parking lot. Are they working long hours and weekends? Seems like an
investigative reporter could get a nice story with just a little digging..

I know this is a rehash of what we already know.. and we are all tired of
waiting.. but maybe PESN or someone can fund a little investigative work..

- Brad

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Alain Sepeda]

the problem seems to be that client don't trust a greek company,
so they don't pay, yet.
Don't forget that they talk about Escrow account.
maybe also the payment is spread in time.

for now maybe they only have debt and technology.

another reason is that they might try to make pressure about tax
regulation, EU/government warranty or EU/government funding. This looks
sharky, but it is common in everyday big business.

2012/7/19 Akira Shirakawa 

> On 2012-07-18 23:01, Andre Blum wrote:
>
>> according to http://lenrnews.eu/?p=113, DGTG is considering to leave
>> Greece.
>>
>> Source is unclear and we are used to better English from Xanthoulis.
>> Maybe this is a translation by someone from a Greek letter.
>>
>
> By the way, come to think about it, what happened to the "78 countries
> [that] have already approached DGTG with an interest to become exclusive
> licensees to manufacture Hyperion products" as revealed a few weeks ago on
> Peter Gluck's blog? DGTG's business plan was discussed in relatively good
> detail and an overall positive outlook there:
>
> http://egooutpeters.blogspot.**it/2012/06/interview-with-**
> defkalion-i-business.html
>
> Aren't 40.5 million Euro x 78 = 3.16 billion Euro enough to start up a
> company, even if it is in Greece with a bad economic situation? Have all
> countries already backed out of this business proposal? Or rather am I
> missing something here?
>
> I say either the email is a blatant fake or we're dealing with
> professional liars (obviously not referring to Peter) if it's authentic.
>
> Cheers,
> S.A.
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Akira Shirakawa]

On 2012-07-18 23:01, Andre Blum wrote:

according to http://lenrnews.eu/?p=113, DGTG is considering to leave
Greece.

Source is unclear and we are used to better English from Xanthoulis.
Maybe this is a translation by someone from a Greek letter.


By the way, come to think about it, what happened to the "78 countries 
[that] have already approached DGTG with an interest to become exclusive 
licensees to manufacture Hyperion products" as revealed a few weeks ago 
on Peter Gluck's blog? DGTG's business plan was discussed in relatively 
good detail and an overall positive outlook there:


http://egooutpeters.blogspot.it/2012/06/interview-with-defkalion-i-business.html

Aren't 40.5 million Euro x 78 = 3.16 billion Euro enough to start up a 
company, even if it is in Greece with a bad economic situation? Have all 
countries already backed out of this business proposal? Or rather am I 
missing something here?


I say either the email is a blatant fake or we're dealing with 
professional liars (obviously not referring to Peter) if it's authentic.


Cheers,
S.A.

RE: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[MarkI-ZeroPoint]

The following is all speculation, but I think it's pretty clear what when
down.

 

Due to Stremmenos' connections to the Greek govt, DGT obtained their funding
from the govt  --  Better to make deal with most desperate partner so one
doesn't have to give up much ownership - it's all about leverage.  However,
like any deal with the govt, there are major strings attached.  And one of
the strings was a deadline since the dire nature of the financial situation
made it very difficult for the govt connection to supply funds for very
long. Shit hits the fan:  Rossi wants a divorce!  And DGT is left with E-Cat
reactors which were not reliable and would go quiescent - definitely NOT
ready for commercialization -- so DGT needed to stall the govt while they
tried to solve the problems. "Just give us some more $ and some time, and
we'll hire the scientists and engineers and fix the problems ourselves!"
OK, DGT bought themselves another 6 months. This would also explain why they
were playing nice with Rossi even after the divorce - hoping they could
patch things up.  But this split, and the realization that Rossi would not
come back, was the extreme pressure causing DGT to take a peek at Rossi's
secret sauce.   More time goes by, DGT stalls with fancy mockup of a
finished unit to show they're almost there, but in reality, they are still
not ready for commercialization.  More time goes by. unrest in Greece
escalates. govt throws a hardball and DGT is given an ultimatum.  This
latest letter is DGT's threat back that they will simply pack up the lab and
move to another country if funding is stopped.  Also would explain why
Stremmenos abandoned DGT. in his mind, he had to select a side, and in his
estimation, Rossi was not quite as ugly as DGT/Greece.  

 

Who's got the leverage now, Greek govt or DGT?  Well, if DGT shows something
significant at ICCF, then Greek govt will kiss A$$, and DGT will probably be
staying in Greece.  Unless, someone makes them an offer they can't refuse!
J  This is way too exciting!!  The movie rights alone are worth millions.

 

-Mark  

 

 

From: Chemical Engineer [mailto:cheme...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 5:07 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

 

Just tell Defkalion to setup a US Company of which the Greek company will be
a subsidiary, call Stephen Chu and apply to the US Dept of Energy for a
$1.6B loan guarantee for independent green power production in California
(equivalent to 40, $40M license agreements).  Spend at least 5% of that loan
to lobby for more government money.  Defkalion's money woes will be solved
and the loan comes with a free Fisker Karma and an A123 fire breathing
battery pack(possibly LENR boosted) - I could not resist.

On Wednesday, July 18, 2012, Jed Rothwell wrote:

Jojo Jaro  > wrote:

 

My conclusion is:  This company is getting ready to abscond.  Correct me if
I'm wrong and argue from facts, not opinion.  I am willing to be wrong about
this.

 

No one outside the company can know whether you are right or wrong. None of
us has any facts to go on. You are speculating. Guessing, in other words. It
is perfectly okay to do that, but you should not confuse guessing with
arguing from facts.

 

I agree this makes them look bad. But appearances are not facts.

 

There is nothing wrong with you reaching a conclusion based on guesswork and
appearances. People often do that. They are often forced to do that,
especially in business, warfare and love. You have to be careful and
remember that you might be wrong. The oldest and best technique in warfare
is to give a false impression and deceive the enemy into reaching a
conclusion based on appearances rather than actual facts. See, for example,
Sun Tzu, "The Art of War." That was written circa 256 BC. It is just as
valid and useful today as it ever was.

 

- Jed

 

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Chemical Engineer]

They are still busy deciding on the electric car's future...

On Wednesday, July 18, 2012, Terry Blanton wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Craig Brown 
> >
> wrote:
> > How much longer can this continue until there is some proper 3rd party
> > validation.
>
> Until Standard Oil of NJ approves.  :-)
>
> T
>
>

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Terry Blanton]

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Craig Brown  wrote:
> How much longer can this continue until there is some proper 3rd party
> validation.

Until Standard Oil of NJ approves.  :-)

T

RE: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Craig Brown]

How much longer can this continue until there is some proper 3rd party validation.


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)
From: David Roberson <dlrober...@aol.com>
Date: Thu, July 19, 2012 10:03 am
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com

 I have to question their earlier statements that they have hundreds of investors in as many countries.  Why do they not have sufficient funds if this is true?  Something is rotten in the state of "(fill in the state)".  Someone correct me if I have their statement mixed up with another entity.    Dave-Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 6:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)   Frank Acland <ecatwo...@gmail.com> wrote:  Jed, on your point 2 -- to me they seem not be saying they base their claims on the cold fusion experiments of others. They said "NASA, US Navy, publicly traded companies from America, Canada, Germany and England and universities abroad have visited us and have turned their attention to our achievements."    Ah. You are quite right. I misunderstood. They are not trying to invoke or borrow NASA's own experiments to bolster their legitimacy. The translation is difficult. It is probably done by machine.   Let me move the goal posts elsewhere, but restate the general idea. We must wait for them to publish an independent evaluation from NASA or the U.S. Navy or what-have-you. Until they do that, I think it is unwise for them to invoke these organizations, or use their visits as a means to claim legitimacy.   Perhaps they mean they have shown the results to the Greek government and they are disappointed in the response.  From this rather poor translation, it seems that DGT are saying that they have got the attention of important visitors -- but they can't get investments operating out of Greece.I see. But as I said, it is not reasonable to expect an investment from the Greek government, if that is what they had in mind. Greece is in a severe economic crisis, as everyone knows.   - Jed  

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Chemical Engineer]

Just tell Defkalion to setup a US Company of which the Greek company will
be a subsidiary, call Stephen Chu and apply to the US Dept of Energy for a
$1.6B loan guarantee for independent green power production in California
(equivalent to 40, $40M license agreements).  Spend at least 5% of that
loan to lobby for more government money.  Defkalion's money woes will be
solved and the loan comes with a free Fisker Karma and an A123 fire
breathing battery pack(possibly LENR boosted) - I could not resist.

On Wednesday, July 18, 2012, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Jojo Jaro  'jth...@hotmail.com');>> wrote:
>
> My conclusion is:  This company is getting ready to abscond.  Correct me
>> if I'm wrong and argue from facts, not opinion.  I am willing to be wrong
>> about this.
>>
>
> No one outside the company can know whether you are right or wrong. None
> of us has any facts to go on. You are speculating. Guessing, in other
> words. It is perfectly okay to do that, but you should not confuse guessing
> with arguing from facts.
>
> I agree this makes them look bad. But appearances are not facts.
>
> There is nothing wrong with you reaching a conclusion based on guesswork
> and appearances. People often do that. They are often forced to do that,
> especially in business, warfare and love. You have to be careful and
> remember that you might be wrong. The oldest and best technique in warfare
> is to give a false impression and deceive the enemy into reaching a
> conclusion based on appearances rather than actual facts. See, for example,
> Sun Tzu, "The Art of War." That was written circa 256 BC. It is just as
> valid and useful today as it ever was.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[David Roberson]

I have to question their earlier statements that they have hundreds of 
investors in as many countries.  Why do they not have sufficient funds if this 
is true?  Something is rotten in the state of "(fill in the state)".  Someone 
correct me if I have their statement mixed up with another entity. 

Dave



-Original Message-
From: Jed Rothwell 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 6:53 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)


Frank Acland  wrote:


Jed, on your point 2 -- to me they seem not be saying they base their claims on 
the cold fusion experiments of others. They said "NASA, US Navy, publicly 
traded companies from America, Canada, Germany and England and universities 
abroad have visited us and have turned their attention to our achievements." 


Ah. You are quite right. I misunderstood. They are not trying to invoke or 
borrow NASA's own experiments to bolster their legitimacy. The translation is 
difficult. It is probably done by machine.


Let me move the goal posts elsewhere, but restate the general idea. We must 
wait for them to publish an independent evaluation from NASA or the U.S. Navy 
or what-have-you. Until they do that, I think it is unwise for them to invoke 
these organizations, or use their visits as a means to claim legitimacy.


Perhaps they mean they have shown the results to the Greek government and they 
are disappointed in the response.
 



>From this rather poor translation, it seems that DGT are saying that they have 
>got the attention of important visitors -- but they can't get investments 
>operating out of Greece.



I see. But as I said, it is not reasonable to expect an investment from the 
Greek government, if that is what they had in mind. Greece is in a severe 
economic crisis, as everyone knows.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Jed Rothwell]

Jojo Jaro  wrote:

My conclusion is:  This company is getting ready to abscond.  Correct me if
> I'm wrong and argue from facts, not opinion.  I am willing to be wrong
> about this.
>

No one outside the company can know whether you are right or wrong. None of
us has any facts to go on. You are speculating. Guessing, in other words.
It is perfectly okay to do that, but you should not confuse guessing with
arguing from facts.

I agree this makes them look bad. But appearances are not facts.

There is nothing wrong with you reaching a conclusion based on guesswork
and appearances. People often do that. They are often forced to do that,
especially in business, warfare and love. You have to be careful and
remember that you might be wrong. The oldest and best technique in warfare
is to give a false impression and deceive the enemy into reaching a
conclusion based on appearances rather than actual facts. See, for example,
Sun Tzu, "The Art of War." That was written circa 256 BC. It is just as
valid and useful today as it ever was.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Jed Rothwell]

Frank Acland  wrote:

Jed, on your point 2 -- to me they seem not be saying they base their
> claims on the cold fusion experiments of others. They said "NASA, US Navy,
> publicly traded companies from America, Canada, Germany and England and
> universities abroad* have visited us and have turned their attention to
> our achievements." *


Ah. You are quite right. I misunderstood. They are not trying to invoke or
borrow NASA's own experiments to bolster their legitimacy. The translation
is difficult. It is probably done by machine.

Let me move the goal posts elsewhere, but restate the general idea. We must
wait for them to publish an independent evaluation from NASA or the U.S.
Navy or what-have-you. Until they do that, I think it is unwise for them to
invoke these organizations, or use their visits as a means to claim
legitimacy.

Perhaps they mean they have shown the results to the Greek government and
they are disappointed in the response.


>From this rather poor translation, it seems that DGT are saying that they
> have got the attention of important visitors -- but they can't get
> investments operating out of Greece.
>

I see. But as I said, it is not reasonable to expect an investment from the
Greek government, if that is what they had in mind. Greece is in a severe
economic crisis, as everyone knows.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Frank Acland]

Jed, on your point 2 -- to me they seem not be saying they base their
claims on the cold fusion experiments of others. They said "NASA, US Navy,
publicly traded companies from America, Canada, Germany and England and
universities abroad* have visited us and have turned their attention to our
achievements." *
*
*
>From this rather poor translation, it seems that DGT are saying that they
have got the attention of important visitors -- but they can't get
investments operating out of Greece.

Best,

Frank

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Akira Shirakawa  wrote:
>
>>
>> To put it bluntly, it looks like a last call for potential investors,
>> implicitly urging them to hurry and take advantage of this opportunity
>> before DGTG will go elsewhere.
>
>
> This statement gives me a bad impression as well, for two reasons:
>
> 1. The letter seems to be saying the Greek government should subsidize
> them or they will leave.  It says, ". . . while not receiving any
> government support on our efforts, so far on our vision Greece was
> first." It is hard to imagine the Greek government is in a position to
> subsidize anything at the moment. Certainly not a controversial claim such
> as cold fusion! If their business plan is predicated on getting help from
> the Greek government I think it will fail.
>
> 2. They are invoking cold fusion experiments at "NASA, US Navy, publicly
> traded companies from America" as proof of their own claims. The
> experiments at NASA, the Navy and elsewhere are very different from those
> claimed by Defkalion. I am willing to give Defkalion the benefit of the
> doubt because I know that cold fusion exists, but they will have to publish
> independent proof of their claims before I will have confidence that this
> particular version of cold fusion is real, and not experimental error.
>
> Their claims are reportedly quite different from Rossi's. So Defkalion
> cannot even invoke Rossi's tests as proof. Those tests were very poorly
> done, in any case. Rossi's tests would be a weak reed even if Defkalion
> claimed they have an exact copy of his reactor.
>
> - Jed
>
>


-- 
Frank Acland
Publisher, E-Cat World 
Author, The Secret Power Beneath 

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Jojo Jaro]

If DGT really had a reactor that is close to commercialization; that produce 
commercial level power and temps, don't you think people will rush to 
license their technology.


What happened to those groups that tested the reactor.  Why aren't they 
rushing to invest?  Xanthoulis' statement seems to indicate that nobody is 
investing, which does not make sense if they have something close to 
commercialization.


My conclusion is:  This company is getting ready to abscond.  Correct me if 
I'm wrong and argue from facts, not opinion.  I am willing to be wrong about 
this.



Jojo



- Original Message - 
From: "Akira Shirakawa" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)



On 2012-07-18 23:01, Andre Blum wrote:

according to http://lenrnews.eu/?p=113, DGTG is considering to leave
Greece.

Source is unclear and we are used to better English from Xanthoulis.
Maybe this is a translation by someone from a Greek letter.


Wording aside (it appears it's a translation from Greek), the content of 
this email doesn't really seem to come from a company reportedly almost 
ready to commercialize a revolutionary product, does it?


To put it bluntly, it looks like a last call for potential investors, 
implicitly urging them to hurry and take advantage of this opportunity 
before DGTG will go elsewhere. Incidentally, this is a known investment 
scam tactic, often used as a last move before the scammer disappears into 
oblivion.


This doesn't look good at all and probably will make many wonder if DGTG 
have been bluffing all along about their status and their upcoming 
products, or in other words, that Stremmenos and Rossi were right about 
them.


In my opinion this email is highly damaging for DGTG.
Its authenticity should be verified as soon as possible.
Its authors should also take full responsibility for it, if it's a fake.

Cheers,
S.A.

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Jed Rothwell]

Akira Shirakawa  wrote:

>
> To put it bluntly, it looks like a last call for potential investors,
> implicitly urging them to hurry and take advantage of this opportunity
> before DGTG will go elsewhere.


This statement gives me a bad impression as well, for two reasons:

1. The letter seems to be saying the Greek government should subsidize them
or they will leave.  It says, ". . . while not receiving any government
support on our efforts, so far on our vision Greece was first." It is hard
to imagine the Greek government is in a position to subsidize anything at
the moment. Certainly not a controversial claim such as cold fusion! If
their business plan is predicated on getting help from the Greek government
I think it will fail.

2. They are invoking cold fusion experiments at "NASA, US Navy, publicly
traded companies from America" as proof of their own claims. The
experiments at NASA, the Navy and elsewhere are very different from those
claimed by Defkalion. I am willing to give Defkalion the benefit of the
doubt because I know that cold fusion exists, but they will have to publish
independent proof of their claims before I will have confidence that this
particular version of cold fusion is real, and not experimental error.

Their claims are reportedly quite different from Rossi's. So Defkalion
cannot even invoke Rossi's tests as proof. Those tests were very poorly
done, in any case. Rossi's tests would be a weak reed even if Defkalion
claimed they have an exact copy of his reactor.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Randy Wuller]

Seems to me, Peter Gluck may be the one to ask.  

- Original Message - 
From: "Akira Shirakawa" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)



On 2012-07-18 23:01, Andre Blum wrote:

according to http://lenrnews.eu/?p=113, DGTG is considering to leave
Greece.

Source is unclear and we are used to better English from Xanthoulis.
Maybe this is a translation by someone from a Greek letter.


Wording aside (it appears it's a translation from Greek), the content of 
this email doesn't really seem to come from a company reportedly almost 
ready to commercialize a revolutionary product, does it?


To put it bluntly, it looks like a last call for potential investors, 
implicitly urging them to hurry and take advantage of this opportunity 
before DGTG will go elsewhere. Incidentally, this is a known investment 
scam tactic, often used as a last move before the scammer disappears 
into oblivion.


This doesn't look good at all and probably will make many wonder if DGTG 
have been bluffing all along about their status and their upcoming 
products, or in other words, that Stremmenos and Rossi were right about 
them.


In my opinion this email is highly damaging for DGTG.
Its authenticity should be verified as soon as possible.
Its authors should also take full responsibility for it, if it's a fake.

Cheers,
S.A.

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

[Akira Shirakawa]

On 2012-07-18 23:01, Andre Blum wrote:

according to http://lenrnews.eu/?p=113, DGTG is considering to leave
Greece.

Source is unclear and we are used to better English from Xanthoulis.
Maybe this is a translation by someone from a Greek letter.


Wording aside (it appears it's a translation from Greek), the content of 
this email doesn't really seem to come from a company reportedly almost 
ready to commercialize a revolutionary product, does it?


To put it bluntly, it looks like a last call for potential investors, 
implicitly urging them to hurry and take advantage of this opportunity 
before DGTG will go elsewhere. Incidentally, this is a known investment 
scam tactic, often used as a last move before the scammer disappears 
into oblivion.


This doesn't look good at all and probably will make many wonder if DGTG 
have been bluffing all along about their status and their upcoming 
products, or in other words, that Stremmenos and Rossi were right about 
them.


In my opinion this email is highly damaging for DGTG.
Its authenticity should be verified as soon as possible.
Its authors should also take full responsibility for it, if it's a fake.

Cheers,
S.A.