Re: {W&P} The Australian Ballot
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what does the below have to do with the topic ? and haven't we read this
verbatum before ?
maree
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 4:18 AM
Subject: Re: {W&P} The Australian Ballot
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> 20th century, a century of war
>
>
> George Anthony remembers the victims of a profitable business
>
> It is either morbidity or subdued anger, but the slaughter of the First
World
> War, with its 350 miles of trenches, from the Belgian coast to the Swiss
> border, has always had a fascination for me. Early on, the reading of
"Lions
> led by Donkeys", "In Flanders fields", "Goodbye to all that", "First day
of
> the Somme", seeing the play and then the film, "Oh, what a lovely war",
> visiting the Imperial war museum, and the first four lines of the Wilfred
> Owen poem, "Anthem for Doomed Youth",
> "What passing-bells for
> these who die as cattle?
> Only the monstrous anger of the guns.
> Only the stuttering rifles` rapid rattle,
> Can patter out their hasty orisons",
> has fed this fascination for years. And the Cenotaph in Whitehall with the
> Armistice commemoration there; for the establishment to shed crocodile
tears,
> every November 11th, has kept it in my mind and everybody else's since
that
> war ended 82 years ago.
> I suppose it was the sheer size and apparent senselessness of it that is
so
> overwhelming, even though it was so long ago. Perhaps that's why it is
still
> referred to as the Great War. A.J.P. Taylor, in one of his BBC television
> lectures, described it as war of attrition, saying, "That providing the
> French and British lost three and the Germans lost two, the Allies would
> win." No bows and arrows here, as at Crecy, Agincourt, and the Little Big
> Horn. No Waterloo, engaging a mere 140,000 professional soldiery, for only
> one day, leaving 62,000 dead. But a monstrous engagement, killing millions
in
> no time at all.
> There have been war's since of course, indeed the 20th century's main
feature
> has been war on a frequent and huge scale, fought with ever increasing
> inhumanity with ever increasingly sophisticated weapons.
> Beginning the century with the Boer War, followed by the Russo/Japanese
war,
> the Gulf war, the French Indo-China war, the Russian Civil war, the 14
> countries war of intervention against the Soviet Union, the Spanish Civil
> war, the Mexican civil war, the Spanish/American Cuba war, the Liberia
civil
> war, the Yemeni war, the Guatemalan war, the Nicaraguan war, the El
> Salvadoran war, the British Malayan war, the Kenya Mau Mau war, the
Vietnam
> war, the Six Day Israeli/Egypt war, the Nagorno/Karabakh war, the
> Bougainville/Papua New Guinea war, the Burma civil war, the Khmer
> Rouge/Cambodia war, the Angola/Unita war, the Nigerian/Biafra war, the
> N.A.T.O. bombing of Serbia, the Afghanistan wars, the Falklands war, the
> Sudan war, the Ethiopia/Eritrea war, the Japanese invasion of Manchuria,
the
> Chinese Red Army/Kuomintang war, the Sino/India war, the Rwanda/Burundi
civil
> war, the East Timor war of liberation, the Georgian civil war, the Guinea
> Bissau civil war, the Israel attack on South Lebanon, the Kashmir war of
> liberation, the Kosovo civil war, the Iran/Iraq war, the Chechnya civil
war,
> the Tajikistan civil war, the Turkish war against the Kurds, the Uganda
civil
> war, the Moluccas war of liberation, the Comoros civil war, the Turkish
> invasion of Cyprus, the Colombia liberation war, the Zapatista/Mexico
> liberation war, the Western Sahara liberation war, the Sierra Leone civil
> war, the Somalia civil war, the Sri Lanka/Tamil civil war and the Congo
war,
> making 56 qualifying as war. With another 26 "nascent international armed
> conflicts", have in their different ways, demonstrated the Clausewitz
dictum
> that "war is politics by other means". Attempts at conquest by one
military
> power over another to maintain its hegemony, instead of by diplomacy and
> political struggle.
> Young men and women, still see war as an adventure, but not on the scale
of
> 1914. Even then they had to be lied to, either that it would be all over
by
> Christmas or, "Gott mitt Uns". Working conditions, long hours and
miserable
> pay, with appeals to patriotism and defence of country, prompted millions
> between 1914 and 1918 to join up for King, Kaiser and "La Patria".
> E
Re: {W&P} How do I unsubscribe?
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Re: {W&P} How do I unsubscribe?
/=-=-=-=-Click Here & Support Our Sponsor-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\ Special Holiday Offer for your friends & family! Give them the Gift of Free Long Distance calls using Tellme. Click for details: http://click.topica.com/6Zb1dhdKb1tdRUa/Tellme \=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/ >From: John T <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Unsubscribe Directions are on the bottom of every message, Troy... just >like >on the other list. Oh. I was looking in the message headers for an X-Unsubscribe: line. Duh. :) > But if you don't have time to read all the messages, why did you just >join >the High volume version of this list? Seems contradictory :) I can read the messages on the website if I have free time. That way, I don't need to worry about my mailbox overflowing. Besides, it seems that lately topica.com has far more messages. -- | "If men were angels, no government would be necessary. | "If angels were to govern men, no controls on government | would be necessary. In framing a gov't of men over men... | enable the gov't to control the governed, then... oblige | it via a Constitution to control itself." - Madison Troy, libertarian-republican, http://geocities.com/videonovels . . . . . _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --- Support our Sponsor eTour is your personal web tour guide, matching the best sites with your interests. eTour is free and easy, and you can earn rewards discovering great new sites. Visit today! http://click.topica.com/5Ab1dhdKb1tdRUc/eTour ___ To Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Make A Buck Or Two @ TheMail.com - Free Internet Email Sign-up today at http://www.themail.com/ref.htm?ref=126357 referrer name = john_tCheck it out! It works! ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Re: {W&P} Nationalism...discussion question
/=-=-=-=-Click Here & Support Our Sponsor-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\ Special Holiday Offer for your friends & family! Give them the Gift of Free Long Distance calls using Tellme. Click for details: http://click.topica.com/6Zb1dhdKb1tdRUa/Tellme \=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/ From: "CAROL L SEATON" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Wow, what a good idea, John. Glad you liked it too bad no one else decided to respond :( Perhaps the humor I used in the message was misconstrued... Ok, so I don't think we should look for nationalism discussion on who first found Fire :) How about the Germans with the first rockets (or the Real first rockets developed by the Chinese?) Or who developed something that really changed the world? Many of the communications devices radio, phones, TV, computers Or the Industrial Revolution? The Renaisance? Or, conversely, who do you blame for the Dark Ages of Europe? What would things have been like it Europe hadn't wasted hundreds of years in the Dark Ages? --- Support our Sponsor- Make eTour.com your Web start page, and youll see a different site matched to your interests every time you log onto the Web! Sign up for your free membership now. http://click.topica.com/5zb1dhdKb1tdRUc/eTour ___ To Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Make A Buck Or Two @ TheMail.com - Free Internet Email Sign-up today at http://www.themail.com/ref.htm?ref=126357 referrer name = john_tCheck it out! It works! ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Re: {W&P} How do I unsubscribe?
/=-=-=-=-Click Here & Support Our Sponsor-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\ Special Holiday Offer for your friends & family! Give them the Gift of Free Long Distance calls using Tellme. Click for details: http://click.topica.com/6Zb1dhdKb1tdRUa/Tellme \=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/ From: "Troy Heagy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I like this group, but unfortunately I don't have time to read all the > messages. :( > ___ > To Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe Directions are on the bottom of every message, Troy... just like on the other list. But if you don't have time to read all the messages, why did you just join the High volume version of this list? Seems contradictory :) /=-=-=-=-Click Here & Support Our Sponsor-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\ Juniper Bank-2.9% intro APR, 100% access Experience unrivaled Internet and wireless convenience with friendly account reminders and online discounts. Get connected to a whole new kind of credit card. http://click.topica.com/5Eb1dhdKb1tdRUc/Juniper \=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/ ___ To Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Make A Buck Or Two @ TheMail.com - Free Internet Email Sign-up today at http://www.themail.com/ref.htm?ref=126357 referrer name = john_tCheck it out! It works! ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Re: {W&P} The Australian Ballot
/=-=-=-=-Click Here & Support Our Sponsor-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\ Special Holiday Offer for your friends & family! Give them the Gift of Free Long Distance calls using Tellme. Click for details: http://click.topica.com/6Zb1dhdKb1tdRUa/Tellme \=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/ 20th century, a century of war George Anthony remembers the victims of a profitable business It is either morbidity or subdued anger, but the slaughter of the First World War, with its 350 miles of trenches, from the Belgian coast to the Swiss border, has always had a fascination for me. Early on, the reading of "Lions led by Donkeys", "In Flanders fields", "Goodbye to all that", "First day of the Somme", seeing the play and then the film, "Oh, what a lovely war", visiting the Imperial war museum, and the first four lines of the Wilfred Owen poem, "Anthem for Doomed Youth", "What passing-bells for these who die as cattle? Only the monstrous anger of the guns. Only the stuttering rifles` rapid rattle, Can patter out their hasty orisons", has fed this fascination for years. And the Cenotaph in Whitehall with the Armistice commemoration there; for the establishment to shed crocodile tears, every November 11th, has kept it in my mind and everybody else's since that war ended 82 years ago. I suppose it was the sheer size and apparent senselessness of it that is so overwhelming, even though it was so long ago. Perhaps that's why it is still referred to as the Great War. A.J.P. Taylor, in one of his BBC television lectures, described it as war of attrition, saying, "That providing the French and British lost three and the Germans lost two, the Allies would win." No bows and arrows here, as at Crecy, Agincourt, and the Little Big Horn. No Waterloo, engaging a mere 140,000 professional soldiery, for only one day, leaving 62,000 dead. But a monstrous engagement, killing millions in no time at all. There have been war's since of course, indeed the 20th century's main feature has been war on a frequent and huge scale, fought with ever increasing inhumanity with ever increasingly sophisticated weapons. Beginning the century with the Boer War, followed by the Russo/Japanese war, the Gulf war, the French Indo-China war, the Russian Civil war, the 14 countries war of intervention against the Soviet Union, the Spanish Civil war, the Mexican civil war, the Spanish/American Cuba war, the Liberia civil war, the Yemeni war, the Guatemalan war, the Nicaraguan war, the El Salvadoran war, the British Malayan war, the Kenya Mau Mau war, the Vietnam war, the Six Day Israeli/Egypt war, the Nagorno/Karabakh war, the Bougainville/Papua New Guinea war, the Burma civil war, the Khmer Rouge/Cambodia war, the Angola/Unita war, the Nigerian/Biafra war, the N.A.T.O. bombing of Serbia, the Afghanistan wars, the Falklands war, the Sudan war, the Ethiopia/Eritrea war, the Japanese invasion of Manchuria, the Chinese Red Army/Kuomintang war, the Sino/India war, the Rwanda/Burundi civil war, the East Timor war of liberation, the Georgian civil war, the Guinea Bissau civil war, the Israel attack on South Lebanon, the Kashmir war of liberation, the Kosovo civil war, the Iran/Iraq war, the Chechnya civil war, the Tajikistan civil war, the Turkish war against the Kurds, the Uganda civil war, the Moluccas war of liberation, the Comoros civil war, the Turkish invasion of Cyprus, the Colombia liberation war, the Zapatista/Mexico liberation war, the Western Sahara liberation war, the Sierra Leone civil war, the Somalia civil war, the Sri Lanka/Tamil civil war and the Congo war, making 56 qualifying as war. With another 26 "nascent international armed conflicts", have in their different ways, demonstrated the Clausewitz dictum that "war is politics by other means". Attempts at conquest by one military power over another to maintain its hegemony, instead of by diplomacy and political struggle. Young men and women, still see war as an adventure, but not on the scale of 1914. Even then they had to be lied to, either that it would be all over by Christmas or, "Gott mitt Uns". Working conditions, long hours and miserable pay, with appeals to patriotism and defence of country, prompted millions between 1914 and 1918 to join up for King, Kaiser and "La Patria". Even though, subsequently, there was something of a sea change in world mentality, the Russian October revolution, the Kiel naval mutiny, their own artillery shooting French mutineers and demob mutinies here at home, has not endured as long as the system which creates war. It did end the age of innocence they say, and did radicalise the international working class for a while. But within a mere 21 years, it engulfed even more countries, and still more millions died. And still the concept of war continues to dominate into the 21st century, with more countries with ever ready nuclear weapons, and the European Strike Force, allegedly part of t
{W&P} How do I unsubscribe?
--- Support our Sponsor Splitting that gift, meal or trip? Settle up fast -- right over the Internet -- with the MoneyZap service, from Western Union. http://click.topica.com/6Wb1dhdKb1tdRUa/WesternUnion I like this group, but unfortunately I don't have time to read all the messages. :( -- | "If men were angels, no government would be necessary. | "If angels were to govern men, no controls on government | would be necessary. In framing a gov't of men over men... | enable the gov't to control the governed, then... oblige | it via a Constitution to control itself." - Madison Troy, libertarian-republican, http://geocities.com/videonovels . . . . . _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com /=-=-=-=-Click Here & Support Our Sponsor-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\ Imagine a credit card with a 0% introductory APR on purchases (for complete pricing information and important terms and conditions, please click on the link below). Apply now for an Aria Visa! http://click.topica.com/5Cb1dhdKb1tdRUc/Aria \=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/ ___ To Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Make A Buck Or Two @ TheMail.com - Free Internet Email Sign-up today at http://www.themail.com/ref.htm?ref=126357 referrer name = john_tCheck it out! It works! ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Re: {W&P} The Australian Ballot
/=-=-=-=-Click Here & Support Our Sponsor-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\ Special Holiday Offer for your friends & family! Give them the Gift of Free Long Distance calls using Tellme. Click for details: http://click.topica.com/6Zb1dhdKb1tdRUa/Tellme \=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/ - Original Message - From: "CAROL L SEATON" > > Maree, > > Good question. "Was it them or the media? You must also remember with > the conglomeration and monopolization of media into the hands of few, > that they are dictating according to their profit margin who will be > heard and who won't". However, who would want a president that follows > the dictates of media? This idea is even more demoralizing. > can you say that the media doesnot manipulate what goes on in Congress or the Pres ? > It would be great if we all had time to read history and John Garcia's > book "Moral Society". He explains the corrupting nature of bureaucracy > as power tends to solidify in a few hands and pressures lead to immoral > decisions until the civilization falls. > Isn't that why there is representative government? Isn't that why there is freedom of speech, to help reduce the corruption of bureacracy? What about separation of powers? > Autocracy always works to reduce the number of decision makers. This is > more efficient, but it also atrophies the whole civilization. Democracy > works to include the largest number of decision makers, and this most > certainly is not efficient, but it is away of life, and rarely do we need > to be in a hurry to make decisions. why is it more efficient ? Surely the fact that decisions are reliant on the encumbent few means that it is less efficient, because they have to wait for the ulimate one to decide.. Hitler limited power, and his Generals (?) turned to him for decisions... > > In a time of emergency we want autocracy for rapid decision making, and > I think there is an effort to make us all believe everyday is an > emergency or a day away from all out war, to secure more and more power > in a few hands. I am afraid we haven't returned to peace time thinking > since the invention of air warfare. In times of peace, we can take the > time for everyone to give an opinion and discuss things until their is a > consensus on the best reasoning. Democracy is a way of life that > shouldn't be rushed. CS > Wafare was not an invention. Since the conception of time there has been a form of warfare.. One party dominating another... As for consensus and reasoning, wouldn't that lead to stagnation.. anarchy doesn't work, because there is a need for some person or group to be the guide. maree > --- Support our Sponsor > eTour is your personal web tour guide, matching the best sites > with your interests. eTour is free and easy, and you can earn > rewards discovering great new sites. Visit today! > http://click.topica.com/5Ab1dhdKb1tdQUc/eTour > > > ___ > To Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Make A Buck Or Two @ TheMail.com - Free Internet Email > Sign-up today at http://www.themail.com/ref.htm?ref=126357 > referrer name = john_tCheck it out! It works! > > ___ > T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > --- Support our Sponsor REDUCE YOUR DEBT FOR FREE!! #1 Rated Method Of Reducing Debt And Improving Your Credit Rating! This reputable NON-Profit can assist you at absolutely NO COST! Click here for more information. http://click.topica.com/OUb1dhdKb1tdRUc/e-debtconsolidation ___ To Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Make A Buck Or Two @ TheMail.com - Free Internet Email Sign-up today at http://www.themail.com/ref.htm?ref=126357 referrer name = john_tCheck it out! It works! ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Re: {W&P} Make it a rule ....
--- Support our Sponsor Your friends live online, why not settle up with them online, too? Western Union® MoneyZap. http://click.topica.com/6Ub1dhdKb1tdRUa/WesternUnion - Original Message - From: "CAROL L SEATON" > > Thank you for the information on the Cuban missile crisis. > > I think there is one point of view if we look at the Soviet and US power > plays as a power game. In this case I would say putting missiles in Cuba > is kind of a dog scenting its territory. However, I remember the fear > during this tense time, and it was not pleasant. It may not have been pleasant, but the propaganda relating to the proposed fear of communism and an alliance between Russia and Cuba, was generated possibly moreso because the US, as other western countries need something to fear, so they have something to build on. Now, this may no be exactly true, but if you look at Hitler, who generated power through the fear of Jews and communism, and people who were not Ariam, it can be clearly demonstrated. Today, look at what is said about Saddham Hussein, even though he is a maniacle leader, it works both ways. The middle east don't want the west coming in and dictating terms, as the west fear the spread of communism, or anything that may undermine their capitalist plans. > But guess what? > > When we think of the ethics of what was going on; how right was it for us > to cause other people to feel the fear we felt? Didn't we start this > threatening behavior? Were we right to cause others fear? Why? Is this > how countries of the world "should" behave? Is this what we are proudly > the leader of?Has this kind of national focus changed our society and > how we interact with each other? "You don't know what you are > talking" verse "I do not agree, because". Moral majority and then non > Christians pushing back each other as far as they can push. Are there > connections? > This sort of focus has been going on for centuries. This concept that might is right has led to wars. the crusades / christianity against the uncivilised. The imperial colonisation of the globe by the moral Brits. The difference today is that due to globalisation, one country cannot just walk in and annex another, without the rest of the world questioning it. And will it change ? As long as society is driven by greed . no! maree > /=-=-=-=-Click Here & Support Our Sponsor-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\ > Juniper Bank-2.9% intro APR, 100% access > Experience unrivaled Internet and wireless convenience > with friendly account reminders and online discounts. > Get connected to a whole new kind of credit card. > http://click.topica.com/5Eb1dhdKb1tdQUc/Juniper > \=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/ > > ___ > To Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Make A Buck Or Two @ TheMail.com - Free Internet Email > Sign-up today at http://www.themail.com/ref.htm?ref=126357 > referrer name = john_tCheck it out! It works! > > ___ > T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > --- Support our Sponsor FREE DEBT REDUCTION HELP? Did you know you can get COMPLETELY FREE HELP lowering your interest charges and debt payments? Click now for more information about this FREE, LIMITED TIME OFFER. http://click.topica.com/OSb1dhdKb1tdRUc/edebtconsolidation ___ To Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Make A Buck Or Two @ TheMail.com - Free Internet Email Sign-up today at http://www.themail.com/ref.htm?ref=126357 referrer name = john_tCheck it out! It works! ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
