WebObjects-Projects?
Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Will work for money...
Hi WOFolks, a customer of mine has cancelled a large project on very short notice. I have already started working as I had an informal commitment from the customer. Now the top management at the other end of Europe has put everything on hold indefinitely. This means I am going to have a lot of spare time and no income in the next couple months. Experienced WebObject/Wonder developer available immediately for contract work. Limited travel can be an option (I do have some teaching commitments until end of May). I am based in Basel/Switzerland. You can contact me by mail to markus [at] ruggiero [dot] ch or author [at] learningthewonders [dot] com Thanks a lot for your understanding ---markus--- ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: rowDiffsForAttributes
Hi Stephane,
Thanks for the suggestion. The model is often the source of lots of weirdness
if you do “unusual” (*cough* crazy) things like that! :-)
But, I believe I have figured it out. I’m going to reply to Ramsey’s email
directly since that is actually what the fix was, even though I didn’t think it
was at the time.
Dave
On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:02 AM, Stephane Guyot stephane.guyo...@wanadoo.fr wrote:
David, last time I've seen this trouble, it was Owns Destination and
Propagate Primary Key used un conjonction on a to-one relationship. Could you
check your model ?
Hth,
Stephane
Envoyé de mon iPhone
Le 4 mars 2014 à 21:31, David Avendasora webobje...@avendasora.com a écrit :
On Mar 4, 2014, at 3:19 PM, Chuck Hill ch...@global-village.net wrote:
On 2014-03-04, 12:01 PM, David Avendasora wrote:
It sounded promising, but unfortunately this did not fix it. It appears to
be something I’m doing wrong.
Really? Gosh!!!
You know, you could at least *pretend* to be surprised.
No?
grumble…
My imagination is only so good.
Are you manually disposing editing contexts?
No. However, I am calling revert() on the nested ones if they have errors()
but I leave them for GC to get rid of them...
Chuck
On Mar 4, 2014, at 1:05 PM, Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com wrote:
Are you using nested ecs? If you are, try
ec.setRetainsRegisteredObjects(true).
https://github.com/wocommunity/wonder/pull/342
On Mar 4, 2014, at 9:35 AM, David Avendasora webobje...@avendasora.com
wrote:
Hey all,
I’m getting the following exception (I added line breaks to make it
digestible by any on the list):
IllegalStateException: rowDiffsForAttributes: snapshot in
com.webobjects.eoaccess.EODatabaseOperation
{
_dbSnapshot = {};
_entity = MYEntity;
_newRow =
{
whatsit = PHONE;
whosit = false;
chuckIt = false;
id = 3451;
};
_object = com.nekesto.neo.model.MYEntity pk:3451;
_globalID = _EOIntegralKeyGlobalID[MYEntity (java.lang.Long)3451];
_databaseOperator = EODatabaseUpdateOperator;
} does not contain value for attribute named chuckIt with snapshot key:
chuckIt
I can see that the _dbSnapshot is completely empty and I know that that
is what it’s complaining about. The object exists in the DB with a PK
matching the id value, which matches up with the _object and the
_globalID. How could the _dbSnapshot end up empty? What
horribly-inappropriate thing have done?
I have gone over everyplace I instantiate “MYEntity” and I’m never using
the EO’s constructor, it’s always being done by
ERXEOControlUtilities.createAndInsertObject(editingContext, “MYEntity”).
As far as I can tell I’m never crossing EC boundaries without
localInstancing it.
Is there anything else that can cause the _dbSnapshot to be empty?
I’m making use of multiple EOObjectStoreCoordinators, 1 each for two
different EOModelGroups, but this code should only ever be using the
defaultModelGroup in the defaultObjectStoreCoordinator. So I don’t
*think* it has anything to do with that, but, well, I’m me and I do stuff
all the time that future me is shocked at.
Dave
—
WebObjects - so easy that even Dave Avendasora can do it!™
—
David Avendasora
Senior Software Abuser
Nekesto, Inc.
___
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—
WebObjects - so easy that even Dave Avendasora can do it!™
—
David Avendasora
Senior Software Abuser
Nekesto, Inc.
—
WebObjects - so easy that even Dave Avendasora can do it!™
—
David Avendasora
Senior Software Abuser
Nekesto, Inc.
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—
WebObjects - so easy that even Dave Avendasora can do it!™
—
David Avendasora
Senior Software Abuser
Nekesto, Inc.
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Re: rowDiffsForAttributes
Ramsey, I could kiss you!
On Mar 4, 2014, at 3:01 PM, David Avendasora webobje...@avendasora.com wrote:
It sounded promising, but unfortunately this did not fix it. It appears to be
something I’m doing wrong.
Apparently what I was doing wrong was not actually using your solution on the
EC that was the culprit.
In hindsight it all makes sense. If I create and save, or insert an EO into an
EC and then not touch it again while I create dozens of nested ECs with nested
ECs of their own, always local instancing the original EO into them, doing lots
of work with multiple saves and reverts on each one using more an more memory,
eventually Java says “Hey, you. Yes you! You pathetic weakly-linked snapshot of
MYEntity hiding in the corner over there. You are garbage. Nobody wants (links
to) you. Die. Die! DIE! DIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIE….
er…
oh.
Right.
Setting the right EC to retain registered objects did the trick. MYEntity has
proof he is loved now and nobody… ah hell, are you still here?
The EOF documentation points out the one-sided relationship of unchanged-EOs
and ECs, but does not go into the possible implications for the EO itself (Page
81 of WebObjects Enterprise Objects Programming Guide):
snip
You usually do not need to worry about managing memory in an Enterprise Objects
application, but this section may be interesting for advanced users.
EOEditingContexts use weak references to the EOEnterpriseObjects registered
with them. EOEnterpriseObjects hold a strong reference to the EOEditingContext
in which they are registered. These types of references prevent an
EOEditingContext from being garbage collected while an EOEnterpriseObject still
requires it. There are several exceptions:
EOEditingContexts hold all inserted, deleted, or updated objects by strong
references. These strong references are cleared by the EOEditingContext methods
saveChanges, revert, invalidateAllObjects, and reset. They may also be cleared
by the EOEditingContext methods invalidateObjectsWithGlobalIDs, refaultObject,
refreshObject, undo, and redo, depending on whether the changed state is or is
not forcefully discarded.
EOEnterpriseObjects registered with an EOSharedEditingContext are always held
by strong references.
You can force an EOEditingContext to hold strong references to all of its
EOEnterpriseObjects by invoking either setInstancesRetainRegisteredObjects or
setRetainsRegisteredObjects on an editing context in which no enterprise
objects are registered.
/snip
You know, you could at least *pretend* to be surprised.
Pfft. Nobody around here is surprised at your ability to do things wrongly.
It’s what you’re good at. Embrace it. Allow others to learn from your … talent.
No?
No.
grumble…
Cheer up! It could be worse, you could be one of the other Dave’s on the list;
always having to say “No, not *that* Dave!
Dave
On Mar 4, 2014, at 1:05 PM, Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com wrote:
Are you using nested ecs? If you are, try
ec.setRetainsRegisteredObjects(true).
https://github.com/wocommunity/wonder/pull/342
On Mar 4, 2014, at 9:35 AM, David Avendasora webobje...@avendasora.com
wrote:
Hey all,
I’m getting the following exception (I added line breaks to make it
digestible by any on the list):
IllegalStateException: rowDiffsForAttributes: snapshot in
com.webobjects.eoaccess.EODatabaseOperation
{
_dbSnapshot = {};
_entity = MYEntity;
_newRow =
{
whatsit = PHONE;
whosit = false;
chuckIt = false;
id = 3451;
};
_object = com.nekesto.neo.model.MYEntity pk:3451;
_globalID = _EOIntegralKeyGlobalID[MYEntity (java.lang.Long)3451];
_databaseOperator = EODatabaseUpdateOperator;
} does not contain value for attribute named chuckIt with snapshot key:
chuckIt
I can see that the _dbSnapshot is completely empty and I know that that is
what it’s complaining about. The object exists in the DB with a PK matching
the id value, which matches up with the _object and the _globalID. How
could the _dbSnapshot end up empty? What horribly-inappropriate thing have
done?
I have gone over everyplace I instantiate “MYEntity” and I’m never using
the EO’s constructor, it’s always being done by
ERXEOControlUtilities.createAndInsertObject(editingContext, “MYEntity”).
As far as I can tell I’m never crossing EC boundaries without
localInstancing it.
Is there anything else that can cause the _dbSnapshot to be empty?
I’m making use of multiple EOObjectStoreCoordinators, 1 each for two
different EOModelGroups, but this code should only ever be using the
defaultModelGroup in the defaultObjectStoreCoordinator. So I don’t *think*
it has anything to do with that, but, well, I’m me and I do stuff all the
time that future me is shocked at.
Dave
—
WebObjects - so easy that even Dave Avendasora can do it!™
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
Hello Jürgen, hello all, as long as I'm in the WO business (since 2001), I've never seen anybody using WO in big business. It has always been small to medium sized projects. I my case 10 to 100 kilo-Euros. Once upon a time there must have been big WO installations outside Apple - but that was in the pre-2000 era. Nevertheless, I'm still using WO as a business. I was mostly successful acquiring new WO projects when the client - had no inhouse IT department (as soon as there are already inhouse IT people, the chance to get WO used in new projects goes to zero), - had no further requirements (such as using a certain technology or wants to use OpenSource), - was only interested in getting the job done. Thanks to WO/Wonder itself as well as the excellent WO community, I was always able to get my customers happy. In functionality, in budget and in time! So, my personal strategy is to find a client with a) a problem (that can be solved) b) money (I had endless discussion with people having a problem and wishing it to get solved - but no business case at all) You won't find such clients in project marketplaces or something alike. I find them - more or less - by accident. But nevertheless I find them. C.U.CW -- Christoph Wick - Diplom Informatiker, Managing Director i4innovation GmbH, Professor-Neu-Allee 39, 53225 Bonn, Germany T +49 2 28 28 62 97 93 M +49 1 51 22 65 78 90 F +49 2 28 28 62 97 99 M c...@i4innovation.de W www.i4innovation.de Skype: christoph_wick Geschäftsführer: Thomas Heep, Christoph Wick Sitz der Gesellschaft: Bonn | Amtsgericht Bonn HRB 18548 | USt-IdNr.: DE276502600 On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/wicki%40me.com This email sent to wi...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: rowDiffsForAttributes
On Mar 5, 2014, at 8:38 AM, David Avendasora webobje...@avendasora.com wrote:
Ramsey, I could kiss you!
On Mar 4, 2014, at 3:01 PM, David Avendasora webobje...@avendasora.com
wrote:
It sounded promising, but unfortunately this did not fix it. It appears to
be something I’m doing wrong.
Apparently what I was doing wrong was not actually using your solution on the
EC that was the culprit.
In hindsight it all makes sense. If I create and save, or insert an EO into
an EC and then not touch it again while I create dozens of nested ECs with
nested ECs of their own, always local instancing the original EO into them,
doing lots of work with multiple saves and reverts on each one using more an
more memory, eventually Java says “Hey, you. Yes you! You pathetic
weakly-linked snapshot of MYEntity hiding in the corner over there. You are
garbage. Nobody wants (links to) you. Die. Die! DIE! DIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIE….
er…
oh.
Right.
Setting the right EC to retain registered objects did the trick. MYEntity has
proof he is loved now and nobody… ah hell, are you still here?
The EOF documentation points out the one-sided relationship of unchanged-EOs
and ECs, but does not go into the possible implications for the EO itself
(Page 81 of WebObjects Enterprise Objects Programming Guide):
snip
You usually do not need to worry about managing memory in an Enterprise
Objects application, but this section may be interesting for advanced users.
I think the documentation just referred to you as an advanced user Dave :D
EOEditingContexts use weak references to the EOEnterpriseObjects registered
with them. EOEnterpriseObjects hold a strong reference to the
EOEditingContext in which they are registered. These types of references
prevent an EOEditingContext from being garbage collected while an
EOEnterpriseObject still requires it. There are several exceptions:
EOEditingContexts hold all inserted, deleted, or updated objects by strong
references. These strong references are cleared by the EOEditingContext
methods saveChanges, revert, invalidateAllObjects, and reset. They may also
be cleared by the EOEditingContext methods invalidateObjectsWithGlobalIDs,
refaultObject, refreshObject, undo, and redo, depending on whether the
changed state is or is not forcefully discarded.
EOEnterpriseObjects registered with an EOSharedEditingContext are always held
by strong references.
You can force an EOEditingContext to hold strong references to all of its
EOEnterpriseObjects by invoking either setInstancesRetainRegisteredObjects or
setRetainsRegisteredObjects on an editing context in which no enterprise
objects are registered.
/snip
You know, you could at least *pretend* to be surprised.
Pfft. Nobody around here is surprised at your ability to do things wrongly.
It’s what you’re good at. Embrace it. Allow others to learn from your …
talent.
No?
No.
grumble…
Cheer up! It could be worse, you could be one of the other Dave’s on the
list; always having to say “No, not *that* Dave!
Dave
On Mar 4, 2014, at 1:05 PM, Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com wrote:
Are you using nested ecs? If you are, try
ec.setRetainsRegisteredObjects(true).
https://github.com/wocommunity/wonder/pull/342
On Mar 4, 2014, at 9:35 AM, David Avendasora webobje...@avendasora.com
wrote:
Hey all,
I’m getting the following exception (I added line breaks to make it
digestible by any on the list):
IllegalStateException: rowDiffsForAttributes: snapshot in
com.webobjects.eoaccess.EODatabaseOperation
{
_dbSnapshot = {};
_entity = MYEntity;
_newRow =
{
whatsit = PHONE;
whosit = false;
chuckIt = false;
id = 3451;
};
_object = com.nekesto.neo.model.MYEntity pk:3451;
_globalID = _EOIntegralKeyGlobalID[MYEntity (java.lang.Long)3451];
_databaseOperator = EODatabaseUpdateOperator;
} does not contain value for attribute named chuckIt with snapshot key:
chuckIt
I can see that the _dbSnapshot is completely empty and I know that that is
what it’s complaining about. The object exists in the DB with a PK
matching the id value, which matches up with the _object and the
_globalID. How could the _dbSnapshot end up empty? What
horribly-inappropriate thing have done?
I have gone over everyplace I instantiate “MYEntity” and I’m never using
the EO’s constructor, it’s always being done by
ERXEOControlUtilities.createAndInsertObject(editingContext, “MYEntity”).
As far as I can tell I’m never crossing EC boundaries without
localInstancing it.
Is there anything else that can cause the _dbSnapshot to be empty?
I’m making use of multiple EOObjectStoreCoordinators, 1 each for two
different EOModelGroups, but this code should only ever be using the
defaultModelGroup in the defaultObjectStoreCoordinator. So I don’t *think*
it has anything
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On Mar 5, 2014, at 3:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? I doubt that it's just Germany. I think its not a WO problem but rather that projects get outsourced/off-shored to dime-a-dozen web developers that don't use WO - if the project isn't canceled outright. kib The essence of training is to allow error without consequence. Orson Scott Card Klaus Berkling www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: rowDiffsForAttributes
On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:20 PM, Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com wrote: On Mar 5, 2014, at 8:38 AM, David Avendasora webobje...@avendasora.com wrote: snip You usually do not need to worry about managing memory in an Enterprise Objects application, but this section may be interesting for advanced users. I think the documentation just referred to you as an advanced user Dave :D I think I hear hoofbeats. Sounds like four horses. — WebObjects - so easy that even Dave Avendasora can do it!™ — David Avendasora Senior Software Abuser Nekesto, Inc. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: rowDiffsForAttributes
That is just a defect in the documentation. Can someone please submit a pull request to fix this? :-P On 2014-03-05, 10:50 AM, David Avendasora wrote: On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:20 PM, Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.commailto:rgur...@smarthealth.com wrote: On Mar 5, 2014, at 8:38 AM, David Avendasora webobje...@avendasora.commailto:webobje...@avendasora.com wrote: snip You usually do not need to worry about managing memory in an Enterprise Objects application, but this section may be interesting for advanced users. I think the documentation just referred to you as an advanced user Dave :D I think I hear hoofbeats. Sounds like four horses. — WebObjects - so easy that even Dave Avendasora can do it!™ — David Avendasora Senior Software Abuser Nekesto, Inc. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
displayNameForProperty D2W ?
I can use displayNameForProperty in a rule and target a given key on any given page. Or I could use PropertyKey.comments = Notes; in a Localizable.strings file. how can I target a specific page and use the Localizable.strings file, like: ListEntityPage.PropertyKey.comments = Notes; EditEntityPage.PropertyKey.comments = Edit Notes; and if there is documentation, please point me to it. I have been looking at all the wonderful sections on the wiki, but this doesn't seem to be there. Ted ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially for the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, this is so great! I love WebObjects!! This is not to say WO is bad. WO is great for what it does. If you have a mac, you know WO already, you don’t mind the tools are a little creaky, you have your own wonder fork, you are okay with writing whatever frameworks you need, you are the dba, and it works for you.. knock yourself out. I don’t expect to see a lot of new faces around though. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: displayNameForProperty D2W ?
100: pageConfiguration = “ListEntityPage” and propertyKey = “comments = displayNameForProperty = “ListEntityPage.PropertyKey.comments” [ERDLocalizedAssignment] On Mar 5, 2014, at 1:05 PM, Theodore Petrosky tedp...@yahoo.com wrote: I can use displayNameForProperty in a rule and target a given key on any given page. Or I could use PropertyKey.comments = Notes; in a Localizable.strings file. how can I target a specific page and use the Localizable.strings file, like: ListEntityPage.PropertyKey.comments = Notes; EditEntityPage.PropertyKey.comments = Edit Notes; and if there is documentation, please point me to it. I have been looking at all the wonderful sections on the wiki, but this doesn't seem to be there. Ted ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/rgurley%40smarthealth.com This email sent to rgur...@smarthealth.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
I am still building large WO projects (deployment size, not employment size :O ) and will until I retire :) On Mar 5, 2014, at 3:12 PM, Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com wrote: On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially for the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, this is so great! I love WebObjects!! This is not to say WO is bad. WO is great for what it does. If you have a mac, you know WO already, you don’t mind the tools are a little creaky, you have your own wonder fork, you are okay with writing whatever frameworks you need, you are the dba, and it works for you.. knock yourself out. I don’t expect to see a lot of new faces around though. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kenlists%40anderhome.com This email sent to kenli...@anderhome.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On 05/03/2014, at 17:42, Ken Anderson kenli...@anderhome.com wrote: I am still building large WO projects (deployment size, not employment size :O ) and will until I retire :) +1. On Mar 5, 2014, at 3:12 PM, Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com wrote: On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially for the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, this is so great! I love WebObjects!! This is not to say WO is bad. WO is great for what it does. If you have a mac, you know WO already, you don’t mind the tools are a little creaky, you have your own wonder fork, you are okay with writing whatever frameworks you need, you are the dba, and it works for you.. knock yourself out. I don’t expect to see a lot of new faces around though. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kenlists%40anderhome.com This email sent to kenli...@anderhome.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long. 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of being full of stress. - Mail original - De: Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com À: Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially for the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, this is so great! I love WebObjects!! This is not to say WO is bad. WO is great for what it does. If you have a mac, you know WO already, you don’t mind the tools are a little creaky, you have your own wonder fork, you are okay with writing whatever frameworks you need, you are the dba, and it works for you.. knock yourself out. I don’t expect to see a lot of new faces around though. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com)
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
So if these guys are poached by Apple - what technology are they using there? Have they left WO completely? On 5 Mar 2014, at 21:23, Pascal Robert prob...@macti.ca wrote: It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long. 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of being full of stress. - Mail original - De: Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com À: Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially for the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, this is so great! I love WebObjects!! This is not to say WO is bad. WO is great for what it does. If you have a mac, you know WO already, you don’t mind the tools are a little creaky, you have your own wonder fork, you are okay with writing whatever frameworks you need, you are the dba, and it works for you.. knock yourself out. I don’t
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On 2014-03-05, 1:23 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long. I think “poached” reflects the wrong attitude. We did not own them. Apple offered them jobs working on some really interesting, high visibility things that make a real difference to people in an environment that I assume makes engineers happy and compensates them well. Hell, I “poached Miguel first and make a run at some of the others. A more valid complaint is that they have not been giving back to the community as they did some years ago. But, really, what is their motivation to do so? What have we given them in the last few years? Chuck 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of being full of stress. - Mail original - De: Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.commailto:rgur...@smarthealth.com À: Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.commailto:si...@webtecc.com Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.commailto:webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.commailto:si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
I prefer sunny side up ;-) On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:47 PM, Chuck Hill ch...@global-village.net wrote: On 2014-03-05, 1:23 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long. I think “poached” reflects the wrong attitude. We did not own them. Apple offered them jobs working on some really interesting, high visibility things that make a real difference to people in an environment that I assume makes engineers happy and compensates them well. Hell, I “poached Miguel first and make a run at some of the others. A more valid complaint is that they have not been giving back to the community as they did some years ago. But, really, what is their motivation to do so? What have we given them in the last few years? Chuck 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of being full of stress. - Mail original - De: Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com À: Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com wrote: [...] Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. I would put some serious time into the tools (WOLips, Rule Modeler) and Wonder. My issue is that I need a full time job to pay the bills. My current job doesn't involve Wonder so my off-hours efforts turn into half-assed and uncommitted (literally and figuratively) results. Anyone else in these shoes? If the WO community would be able to pay a salary for the up-keep of Wonder I would be first in line. Or I need to win the lottery. Wonder needs a future, otherwise I might be stuck with ASP for a long time. :-) kib We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths. Walt Disney Klaus Berkling www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
From what I learned, the iTunes group is still using WO, but the other groups can use whatever they want. - Mail original - De: Gino Pacitti ginok...@mac.com À: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 16:45:47 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? So if these guys are poached by Apple - what technology are they using there? Have they left WO completely? On 5 Mar 2014, at 21:23, Pascal Robert prob...@macti.ca wrote: It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long. 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of being full of stress. - Mail original - De: Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com À: Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially for the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, this is so great! I love WebObjects!! This is not to say WO is bad. WO
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
ROFLMAO! And Look! An @apple.com address broke radio silence! :-P On 2014-03-05, 1:50 PM, Alan Ward wrote: I prefer sunny side up ;-) On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:47 PM, Chuck Hill ch...@global-village.netmailto:ch...@global-village.net wrote: On 2014-03-05, 1:23 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long. I think “poached” reflects the wrong attitude. We did not own them. Apple offered them jobs working on some really interesting, high visibility things that make a real difference to people in an environment that I assume makes engineers happy and compensates them well. Hell, I “poached Miguel first and make a run at some of the others. A more valid complaint is that they have not been giving back to the community as they did some years ago. But, really, what is their motivation to do so? What have we given them in the last few years? Chuck 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of being full of stress. - Mail original - De: Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.commailto:rgur...@smarthealth.com À: Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.commailto:si...@webtecc.com Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.commailto:webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.commailto:si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.comhttp://apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page??http://domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to
Re: rowDiffsForAttributes
On 2014-03-05, 7:38 AM, David Avendasora wrote: Ramsey, I could kiss you! Now I am much less sure that I want to go to WOWODC. Shudder. I have to go bleach my imagination now. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
Oh man, am I gonna have to learn ASP if I ever want another job!!?? Crap. Maybe I can join the Apple caravan. :-) Tim UCLA GSEIS On Mar 5, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Klaus Berkling webobje...@berkling.us wrote: On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com wrote: [...] Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. I would put some serious time into the tools (WOLips, Rule Modeler) and Wonder. My issue is that I need a full time job to pay the bills. My current job doesn't involve Wonder so my off-hours efforts turn into half-assed and uncommitted (literally and figuratively) results. Anyone else in these shoes? If the WO community would be able to pay a salary for the up-keep of Wonder I would be first in line. Or I need to win the lottery. Wonder needs a future, otherwise I might be stuck with ASP for a long time. :-) kib We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths. Walt Disney Klaus Berkling www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/lists%40thetimmy.com This email sent to li...@thetimmy.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:03 PM, Timothy Worman li...@thetimmy.com wrote: Oh man, am I gonna have to learn ASP if I ever want another job!!?? Crap. Maybe I can join the Apple caravan. :-) YMMV, there's PHP too :-) kib The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to its close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences. Winston Churchill Klaus Berkling www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
how about some server-side javascript? who uses object inheritance or relies on those pesky class types anyway? you can perform an otherwise normal database backup and say “I’m going to take a mongo dump now” at the office. so, it’s not like it’s all about being effective by getting hard problems done in reliably designed foundations and all that sorta crap, now is it? On Mar 5, 2014, at 7:06 PM, Klaus Berkling webobje...@berkling.us wrote: On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:03 PM, Timothy Worman li...@thetimmy.com wrote: Oh man, am I gonna have to learn ASP if I ever want another job!!?? Crap. Maybe I can join the Apple caravan. :-) YMMV, there's PHP too :-) kib The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to its close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences. Winston Churchill Klaus Berkling www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jtayler%40oeinc.com This email sent to jtay...@oeinc.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
appleseed discussions may use WO as well? Tim UCLA GSEIS On Mar 5, 2014, at 1:51 PM, Pascal Robert prob...@macti.ca wrote: From what I learned, the iTunes group is still using WO, but the other groups can use whatever they want. - Mail original - De: Gino Pacitti ginok...@mac.com À: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 16:45:47 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? So if these guys are poached by Apple - what technology are they using there? Have they left WO completely? On 5 Mar 2014, at 21:23, Pascal Robert prob...@macti.ca wrote: It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long. 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of being full of stress. - Mail original - De: Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com À: Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially for the
Re: Starting second instance=app not available
Hi, On 2014-03-04, 4:19 PM, Jeffrey Schmitz wrote: I'm guessing that or something very much like it is the problem. But I don't think I have the courage to try it at this point since it's currently running with localhost. Maybe in about a month, or if it stops working again I'll try it with all WOHosts and setting all to domain names instead of localhost. I wish there were a canonical, well documented way to set this stuff that worked every time, so I'm going to take a first cut. The list below I think represents some very common deployment problem child entries, but I certainly at this time haven't found a magic answer that always works for me for the things in red, with the biggest overall questions being: Use localhost/don't use localhost Use localhost for single machine development. Use IP Addresses or domain names Use for deployment. Use WOHost properties/Don't use WOHost properties Always use WOHost. Note that if you do use domain names, they must be reverse lookup'able, so that the 'host ip' and 'host domain' commands match up Very much so. e.g. $host netbrackets1.netbrackets.comhttp://netbrackets1.netbrackets.com netbrackets1.netbrackets.comhttp://netbrackets1.netbrackets.com has address 208.52.168.238 $ host 208.52.168.238 238.168.52.208.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer netbrackets1.netbrackets.comhttp://netbrackets1.netbrackets.com. With that said, here is my first attempt at the canonical list of deployment problem children: /Library/WebObjects/JavaApplications/wotaskd.woa/Contents/Resources/Properties: WOHost=[IP/Domain/localhost/don't use WOHost] /Library/WebObjects/JavaApplications/JavaMonitor/Contents/Resources/Properties: WOHost=[IP/Domain/localhost/don't use WOHost] JavaMonitor Site HTTP Adaptor URL: http://[IP/Domain/localhost]/cgi-bin/WebObjects JavaMonitor Hosts Host name (Status says available so wotaskd daemon is running): [IP/Domain/localhost] /System/Library/WebObjects/Adaptors/Apache2.2/apache.conf: WebObjectsConfig [IP/Domain/localhost]:1085 10 httpd.conf problem entries: ServerName [IP/Domain/localhost]:80 DocumentRoot /Library/WebServer/Documents Directory / Options FollowSymLinks AllowOverride None #Order deny,allow #Deny from all /Directory ScriptAliasMatch ^/cgi-bin/((?!(?i:webobjects)).*$) /Library/WebServer/CGI-Executables/$1 Include /System/Library/WebObjects/Adaptors/Apache2.2/apache.conf apache.conf problem entries: LoadModule WebObjects_module /System/Library/WebObjects/Adaptors/Apache2.2/mod_WebObjects.so WebObjectsDocumentRoot /Library/WebServer/Documents WebObjectsAlias /cgi-bin/WebObjects WebObjectsConfig [IP/Domain/localhost]:1085 10 Additional Arguments magic entry in Javamonitor: -WOHost [IP/Domain/localhost/don't use WOHost] On Mar 4, 2014, at 11:30 AM, Chuck Hill ch...@global-village.netmailto:ch...@global-village.net wrote: The random results and lack of WOHost settings suggest that the apps are starting while networking is getting finalized. I’d try adding WOHost to everything (apps, JavaMonitor, wotaskd). Chuck On 2014-03-04, 7:56 AM, Jeff Schmitz wrote: Definitely random. Every reboot is an adventure :-) Here's the host info. I think it looks good. host netbrackets1.netbrackets.comhttp://netbrackets1.netbrackets.com/ netbrackets1.netbrackets.comhttp://netbrackets1.netbrackets.com/ has address 208.52.168.238 host 208.52.168.238 238.168.52.208.in-addr.arpa domain name I'll have to try starting the app from the command line later but all is working right now so I'm pretty sure the app itself starts fine. Per the logs It was actually getting started by javamonitor without error but javamonitor didn't know it. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 4, 2014, at 9:01 AM, Aaron Rosenzweig aa...@chatnbike.commailto:aa...@chatnbike.com wrote: Hi Jeff, I wonder if you are having NSLOOKUP trouble. If the DNS isn’t just right, WO can get easily confused and probably will cause sporadic problems like you are experiencing. Right? If I understand it correctly things are failing somewhat randomly. It’s not like they never work, they sometimes do. That smells of DNS trouble. In particular: Check that the machine is properly identified in the DNS including the reverse lookup. Aaron Rosenzweig / Chat 'n Bikehttp://www.chatnbike.com/ e: aa...@chatnbike.commailto:aa...@chatnbike.com t: (301) 956-2319 [Chat 'n Bike] [Chat 'n Bike] On Mar 4, 2014, at 4:44 AM, Jeffrey Schmitz j...@netbrackets.commailto:j...@netbrackets.com wrote: JavaMonitor started the instances, and they start fine with no errors. Is there some way I can get this working without javamonitor knowing it's running at least temporarily? The app is up and running according to the log at least. On Mar 4, 2014, at 3:08 AM, Alexander Spohr a...@freeport.demailto:a...@freeport.de wrote: Am 04.03.2014 um 09:30 schrieb Jeffrey Schmitz j...@netbrackets.commailto:j...@netbrackets.com: port = 2003;
My last WOWODC
Well, it's really the last WOWODC that I organize. I need time to fix some minor health issues, and with my 40 hours+ job and the kids, I just don't have the time (not excluding that I have spent more than 20 hours of accounting, and have to write the annual report before March 20th). Two guys from Germany contacted me to say that they can organize something in Germany next year, which makes sense since this is the only area where the number of WO devevelopers doesn't drop every year. To the people who are coming to WOWODC 2014, I will be glad to see you one last time (except virtually). To the others, I hope to see you somewhere in future. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Starting second instance=app not available
Well that makes it Chuckonical, which is even better than canonical in my book :-) On Mar 5, 2014, at 6:32 PM, Chuck Hill ch...@global-village.net wrote: Hi, On 2014-03-04, 4:19 PM, Jeffrey Schmitz wrote: I'm guessing that or something very much like it is the problem. But I don't think I have the courage to try it at this point since it's currently running with localhost. Maybe in about a month, or if it stops working again I'll try it with all WOHosts and setting all to domain names instead of localhost. I wish there were a canonical, well documented way to set this stuff that worked every time, so I'm going to take a first cut. The list below I think represents some very common deployment problem child entries, but I certainly at this time haven't found a magic answer that always works for me for the things in red, with the biggest overall questions being: Use localhost/don't use localhost Use localhost for single machine development. Use IP Addresses or domain names Use for deployment. Use WOHost properties/Don't use WOHost properties Always use WOHost. Note that if you do use domain names, they must be reverse lookup'able, so that the 'host ip' and 'host domain' commands match up Very much so. e.g. $host netbrackets1.netbrackets.com netbrackets1.netbrackets.com has address 208.52.168.238 $ host 208.52.168.238 238.168.52.208.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer netbrackets1.netbrackets.com. With that said, here is my first attempt at the canonical list of deployment problem children: /Library/WebObjects/JavaApplications/wotaskd.woa/Contents/Resources/Properties: WOHost=[IP/Domain/localhost/don't use WOHost] /Library/WebObjects/JavaApplications/JavaMonitor/Contents/Resources/Properties: WOHost=[IP/Domain/localhost/don't use WOHost] JavaMonitor Site HTTP Adaptor URL: http://[IP/Domain/localhost]/cgi-bin/WebObjects JavaMonitor Hosts Host name (Status says available so wotaskd daemon is running): [IP/Domain/localhost] /System/Library/WebObjects/Adaptors/Apache2.2/apache.conf: WebObjectsConfig [IP/Domain/localhost]:1085 10 httpd.conf problem entries: ServerName [IP/Domain/localhost]:80 DocumentRoot /Library/WebServer/Documents Directory / Options FollowSymLinks AllowOverride None #Order deny,allow #Deny from all /Directory ScriptAliasMatch ^/cgi-bin/((?!(?i:webobjects)).*$) /Library/WebServer/CGI-Executables/$1 Include /System/Library/WebObjects/Adaptors/Apache2.2/apache.conf apache.conf problem entries: LoadModule WebObjects_module /System/Library/WebObjects/Adaptors/Apache2.2/mod_WebObjects.so WebObjectsDocumentRoot /Library/WebServer/Documents WebObjectsAlias /cgi-bin/WebObjects WebObjectsConfig [IP/Domain/localhost]:1085 10 Additional Arguments magic entry in Javamonitor: -WOHost [IP/Domain/localhost/don't use WOHost] On Mar 4, 2014, at 11:30 AM, Chuck Hill ch...@global-village.net wrote: The random results and lack of WOHost settings suggest that the apps are starting while networking is getting finalized. I’d try adding WOHost to everything (apps, JavaMonitor, wotaskd). Chuck On 2014-03-04, 7:56 AM, Jeff Schmitz wrote: Definitely random. Every reboot is an adventure :-) Here's the host info. I think it looks good. host netbrackets1.netbrackets.com netbrackets1.netbrackets.com has address 208.52.168.238 host 208.52.168.238 238.168.52.208.in-addr.arpa domain name I'll have to try starting the app from the command line later but all is working right now so I'm pretty sure the app itself starts fine. Per the logs It was actually getting started by javamonitor without error but javamonitor didn't know it. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 4, 2014, at 9:01 AM, Aaron Rosenzweig aa...@chatnbike.com wrote: Hi Jeff, I wonder if you are having NSLOOKUP trouble. If the DNS isn’t just right, WO can get easily confused and probably will cause sporadic problems like you are experiencing. Right? If I understand it correctly things are failing somewhat randomly. It’s not like they never work, they sometimes do. That smells of DNS trouble. In particular: Check that the machine is properly identified in the DNS including the reverse lookup. AARON ROSENZWEIG / Chat 'n Bike e: aa...@chatnbike.com t: (301) 956-2319 On Mar 4, 2014, at 4:44 AM, Jeffrey Schmitz j...@netbrackets.com wrote: JavaMonitor started the instances, and they start fine with no errors. Is there some way I can get this working without javamonitor knowing it's running at least temporarily? The app is up and running according to the log at least. On Mar 4, 2014, at 3:08 AM, Alexander Spohr a...@freeport.de wrote: Am 04.03.2014 um 09:30 schrieb Jeffrey Schmitz j...@netbrackets.com: port = 2003; runningState = DEAD Who started the instances? Are they on the
