RE: [libreoffice-website] Hover-menu-popup for the main menu?
Hi If the site gets 3rd level pages (detailed features, howto, etc.), then instead of showing a stack of three menu bars, it might be better to show only the top level bar and breadcrumbs. Just my 2 cents... Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Hover-menu-popup for the main menu?
Only some menu items have second level menus. Critically the first two don't (but this would change when the "why" pages are restored to the menu system). So should the items have a sign (e.g. a downward-pointing triangle) that indicates existence of a submenu? Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]
:) Depends how high we set our standards...Surely we are not racing to the bottom? :) Look, people have quoted numerous reasons for NOT joining the website-making. I saw some themes, such as "Drupal", "I'm too busy", "you website guys -ed to us design guys", etc. etc. Anyhow, David, Michael and I finished the text on these pages in "Get it DONE" mode. But that's not how a website is designed. So now we need to switch to the "Get it RIGHT" mode. This means not just inserting icons in the existing text, but a new IA and wireframe. It is not for my sake- It is for the LibreOffice, which we want people to think as "the LIBERATED office". As I said in the beginning, I am not keen to bring an "external" designer. He is just a available resource who can deliver quality product in shortest possible time. We can perfectly manage with the available resources if they do the same. So let us think of reasons why this CAN be done. :) Thanks for your understanding in advance. Narayan > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 15:51:07 +0100 > From: bernh...@familie-dippold.at > To: website@libreoffice.org > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] Libreoffice.org website devsitrep > 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages] > > Nino Novak schrieb: > > On Friday 04 February 2011 14:07, Italo Vignoli wrote: > >> Mike Houben wrote: > >>> http://www.ideactionmedia.com/IdeactionMedia.html > >>> http://www.dokimos.org/ajff/ (My personal Favorite) > >>> http://www.arngren.net/ > >>> http://www.partytentcity.com/ > >> > >> You made my day > > > > +1 > > > > *LOL* > > These pages got more visitors today than during the entire last year, I > suppose... > > Thanks > > Bernhard > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]
Hi Bernhard, I am sorry to see you take that extreme hardline approach. Can I count on you to have your normal even-keeled approach? :) I think you understand that my post pointed out the lack of resource- not to hurt anyone's professional pride in designing or managing. I do hope we do not talk about "we, the designers" and "you the website team" This has to be done jointly. > We have to contribute - and we do! > But not in the way and in the timeframe *you* decide to be the right one. > As you mentioned several times, open source communities are different > from corporate development. > Even if there are people with the necessary skills, this doesn't mean > that they can spend more time than possible to the community. > > At the moment there are several urgent tasks to be fulfilled for the > Design Team. Yes, we all know that. The moot point is how to proceed. On one hand you say there are no free resources for the website. On the other hand you reject the idea of someone doing that work. What timeframe do you set for the website job, considering the other priority jobs? Just so that we can plan around that fact... Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]
Italo, > > Please do not search for any motives- We are terribly short of web > > designer(s). > > The time is running out- The website is far from ready. > > And I happened to have access to an excellent source. There is nothing more > > to it. > It looks like you continue to put forward your statements as they are > made of gold against everyone else opinion. First, I am NOT alone in looking for a graphic designer. Don't attack people - Move the discussion in the right direction. Suggest a solution. Help us solve this. As SC-member, what do you suggest? What will you do to move things? > We have lost hours after your emails. I am fed up. First of all you never gave any inputs (or responded) when it mattered. Why crib? Instead of cribbing, why don't you give us the market insights? > -100 to any external designer, if he belongs to the category of those > that do not want to understand communities. This is not an enterprise, > it has been different, it is different, it will be different. Sorry, the > difference is not a subject for further discussion. Is this constructive input? Is this leadership? Is this marketing input? And what is this nonsense about "communities"? If you do have views on how this community works (or should work), share it publicly. -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Inviting a new web designer to work with us (was: LibO website dev..)
Hi Bernhard, > > Inputs from key stakeholders is essential (including marketing, > > design, UX team AND copywriters). After that, he would propose some > > "seed" designs, so that all members can brainstorm. (Normally > > designers do that to gauge the mood of their clients.) > > Sorry - I don't think that anybody here will be able to provide him with > all the necessary inputs. Either you will have the time to tell him the > essentials or he will have to find out through our past and present > activities. Most of them have been collected by website team members, > when they followed the idea of Drupal implementation, but I don't know > if anybody has the time to provide your expert with their results. I started that initiative (NOT part of "Drupal", but phase-2), but we have not yet managed to collect the specific needs of each type of stakeholders (we have identified 23 types of stakeholders in the LibO stakeholders). But the present website mainly addresses LibO-users; and their needs are known. Market-study inputs are awaited from Italo, though. > Even if he might get a first collection of preconditions, people will > come and claim their needs afterwards: That's normal reaction to work on > the area where you have to do most of the work, until another area shows > possible drawbacks for future activities. Yes. That happens in any website design, too. Many people cannot visualize the design in advance, but once a preliminary design is ready, their needs/wants are raised. In website design, we generally don't follow the waterfall SDLC anyway! > > Based on the discussion, he would make the final design (HTML code, > > icons). There may be one or more rounds of this. > > Or the team decides to use his work as a basis for *our* final design. > > This is an option he *will have to accept*. He is not the only expert in > this field, but his input is appreciated. I agree. I believe that in an open source project things ought to be improved constantly. No one has a right to declare his work to be final/permanent. > > [...] > > > > But there has to be a caveat: Everyone should respect what a > > web-designer says about his field. Do not try to foist outside > > concepts on web design. > > Sorry, you don't see the central point: > The website is part of the community - and therefore it might be (not > necessarily, but I can't preclude it) that there are needs not being > able to be integrated in his concept. > > It's the community who decides about the tools - and web design is one > of the tools we use for our needs. > > > > If there is a disagreement, we settle it by referring to reference > > literature on UX and web design. (Like the link I quoted.) AGREED? > > NO! > > If there is a disagreement, every position has to be make understandable > to the other side, so everybody has to find his way to an agreement or > compromise. > > If the community will not follow your expert's opinion, it's still the > community to decide what to implement and what to leave. > > But: The community doesn't consist of idiots only! So we are capable to > see the advantages of a good web design. I suppose that's reasonable. But if you see the recent argument about adding even more text, I am not so sure whether the website will stay on course. Domain expertise should be given more weight (That's why the Design team can play a vital role here). > > If we are clear about our workflow, I can request my colleague to > > come in and help. I'd like a clarity and consensus on this point, please! > We have skilled web designers in our team - like Nik - so he will not be > the only "expert" (and he should avoid to behave so). I agree completely. The more fruits a branch bears, the lower it bends. > If he can stand discussion and proposals for improvement, leading to a > collaborative work, he is more than welcome. > But the final result will be the communities web design - not his > donation (or how he might call it). Yes, of course! Best, -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]
Hi Nik 1. The website project has no graphic designer on board-why? 2. There is no planned wireframe/icons for home page, and other sets of pages- why? 2. We raced against launch date, missed it and still no graphic inputs-why? Don't you think someone from your team had to contribute? If a design team member was there to hold our hand, I'd never need "outside" talent in the first place. (Assuming that there is such a thing as "outside talent" in an open source project.) So if I fulfill that gap with a guest artist, why should the design team object? I never made any talent-comparisons, except to reject the idea of "approving" someone. > Leaving us with a Design style that we would have no choice but to > integrate, without having any input. How did you get this idea? I have stated that design inputs are essential. That includes all design standards, including color-palette, dimensions, etc. No web designer would think of working outside the existing standards and style. Please point to repository of icons, standards, etc; so that they can be adhered to. > Did you learn that lesson; how important that feeling of inclusion is? Well, I am complaining about LACK of Graphic Designer and you are complaining about NON-INCLUSION in the website team. How is that possible when both sides are so bent on working jointly? This is comic-tragic. Obviously this is a coordination issue/leadership failure. Please do not search for any motives- We are terribly short of web designer(s). The time is running out- The website is far from ready. And I happened to have access to an excellent source. There is nothing more to it. Regards, -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]
Hi Bernhard, First, thanks for the level-toned and opinion-free response. > If your expert doesn't want to be involved in discussions and proposals > with experts and community members from other parts of the LibO > community, his work can't be more than a proposal, perhaps used as > starting point for a community based web design. Most likely he will > find important parts (in his expert opinion) of his design modified and > downgraded. As this might have an impact on your personal relationship, > I want him to know this beforehand. > > But if he is interested in getting information about our needs, wants to > join a collaborative effort to improve the website and is open to > modifications caused by present community experience (especially in > iterative improvements rather than general overhaul), he is more than > welcome to propose his ideas. The first approach is not viable (we NEVER work like that). Approach#2 is how we routinely work. Inputs from key stakeholders is essential (including marketing, design, UX team AND copywriters). After that, he would propose some "seed" designs, so that all members can brainstorm. (Normally designers do that to gauge the mood of their clients.) Based on the discussion, he would make the final design (HTML code, icons). There may be one or more rounds of this. In other words, his work on this project would RELY on comprehensive inputs from EVERYONE. His output would be modulated based on stage-wise reviews by all stakeholders. > Even if he doesn't want to stay longer with us, I think everybody will > see his positive contribution (and if he likes the way we work - perhaps > he reconsiders his decision...) I hope so! :) > In order to include his work in our efforts it would be necessary to > license it under a proper OS license (CC by-sa 3.0 for the website). Yes, I will convey this. > *long version (covering some other topics too):* [..] > Our website needs to fulfill several different goals - attract curious > people to become users or contributors, provide information to present > users and contributors. > > The user groups are diverging, contributors work in very different areas > - how can you describe the needs of our community to someone who doesn't > know about our structure and the way we work? That is why requirements from all stakeholders need to be collected. Without that clarity, no website (-indeed any product-) can be designed. > > And what has this to do with the OS model?? [...] Website > > design is a specialized field, and even an OS project would have to > > follow its norms. > > ... provided the designer knows about the preconditions mentioned above. > Some of these conditions show up later on - just because they have been > forgotten or not taken as serious as they should, some develop in > future. They have to become implemented too - and evolving a design > without the primary team is harder. Yes, this is a frequent scenario in real-world web-design too. :) > > Given that, they should not at least be a hindrance when we are > > struggling to manage on our own. To be fair, I have not seen any > > evidence that they would block us from doing any positive work. > > "On our own" might be problematic - because the website team is one > (important) aspect of the overall community. But in general you're > right: You will not be blocked, if the work is considered as positive > for the community. How can it be deemed otherwise, when the website would be designed with your inputs and stage-wise consultation? :) But there has to be a caveat: Everyone should respect what a web-designer says about his field. Do not try to foist outside concepts on web design. If there is a disagreement, we settle it by referring to reference literature on UX and web design. (Like the link I quoted.) AGREED? Also keep in mind the adage that a camel is a horse designed by a committee. :) > >> Everyone wants the project to go forward - but often in different > >> directions! > >> > >> There comes a time when we have to choose one path and then all > >> contribute to it. > > > > That was my point: The current design is way off course - Both in > > process and contents. See this checklist and decide for yourself: > > http://www.abrook.com/website-design/website-planning-checklist/ > > Thanks for this link - If I remember correctly, most of these points > have been mentioned during our discussions here, but haven't been > presented in such a good structure. I am glad that multiple people have repeatedly asked for these SAME points! It means that a majority of the group WANTS to follow that path. :) > > [...]SC should give us a lab space. Like Google labs, we should > > have an official idea-generation and prototyping area. > > With Pumbaa [1] there is already a staging site. That page does not load! (connection times out) > The SC decision not to support Drupal development during the next month > has been ba
RE: [libreoffice-website] Silverstripe shows faulty "broken links" report
Hi > Sorry, I don't understand - what do you mean with revert? > The broken links report is somewhat unreliable, so when you don't have > the red background highlighting within the editor, then all is fine. by revert I meant your diagnosis on what is really broken (links or the silverstripe link-checker?) I don't want a user to come across broken links... > I didn't look into what exactly is causing the broken-links report to fail > yet. And fixing ss for future is also a goal. Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Silverstripe shows faulty "broken links" report
HI Christian, > >If the page contains multiple links, it becomes difficult to spot the > > broken link. > > Yes, the link-checker is rather fragile in the sense that when it > encounters something it doesn't expect, it will have > "carry-on-errors". > > But on pages where there really are broken links, the corresponding > link will be highlighted with a red background in the editor. We tried looking for such indications, but cannot see such links at all. Can you have a look at the "Broken links" report at SS and revert? Thanks in advance. > When using the editor to create links, you shouldn't be able to create > broken links. Broken links can occur however when you delete images > from asset or delete pages. > Just by moving pages around/renaming them, or moving images in assets > to another folder, the links won't break. David and I discussed this. He tells me he has not done anything that causes broken links. I have restricted my operations to entering content in existing pages. A third person could have done that. But how to detect that? That's the question! > Note that the link-checker also doesn't verify external links, only > links within the CMS. I used a link-checker application from my desktop. It does check external links (as an option), which I turned off. So both SilverStripe and my tool (Xenu) are looking for broken links in the same domain. Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Hover-menu-popup for the main menu?
Hi, The recent discussion is veering towards adding (L3) pages that show details of features. So we may have to opt for open-on-hover menu anyway :) Reason: We cannot possibly have a stack of 3 menu bars on every page. In any case static menu bar is needed when all the options must be visible at a time. Since we do not have such needs, we can have the hover menus. So we can have the following combos: * one static menu bar and 2 levels of hover-menu, or * 2 static menu bars (like at present) and 1 level of hover menu. Just my 2 cents :) Regards, -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]
Hi Christoph, > Well, I think Italo already outlined it quite well - anybody will > welcome any contribution as long as it fits in the broader picture. And > if not, others can simply pick the provided material and tweak it until > it fits. If we don't succeed, well, then there is a little chance that > it won't be used. But (as Mike outlined) it would better, if somebody > feels comfortable to work within a team and stays :-) Exactly! It is so intuitive, isn't it? :) > Narayan, why shouldn't this work if someone provides material either for > the website team, or within the design team? I think our documentation > is rather good to get an idea how the project "wants to look like". Yes, that's the point: I am scratching my head still! I didn't believe for a moment that LO community was so hostile/unwelcoming to the Good Samaritans. But that's how David responded. What can I say? Anyway, that opportunity is lost. I hope we welcome any contributors with open arms next time! :) -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Work on the "Why?" pages
Hi Italo, > > I do think your inputs should have come before I wrote those pages. > > Yes, it is true, but I did not have the time. > > > Why do SC-members have to reverse everything post-facto while remaining > > inert when it counts? > > I don't buy this "no time" concept. You wasted my time and effort through > > your tardiness, and I don't like it. > > Sorry, this "no time" concept belongs to volunteer work. I have told > several times that if there is a specific issue someone should send me > an email and/or ping me on Skype. > I have a daily job, a family, friends > and TDF, and I have been involved in the community for over seven years > and no one has ever complained about my availability. That applies to EACH and EVERY volunteer. So we should not bring this in every time we discuss something. > A community project is by definition a slow moving project, because is > based on voluntary work. This is a fact and not a choice. If you do not > feel comfortable with this situation, I do not think that we can easily > find a solution. We are not talking of the "pace of the project", but meeting deadlines set by SC itself. I did not set the release date. We had to finish the website before that launch date AND it had to have those "why" pages. The marketing inputs should have come before that. They did not. Where does that leave us? > > I also gave you a detailed feedback on the logo/tagline for the website. > > The logo and tagline situation is evolving. Now there is a logo without > tagline, and I think that there will be further evolutions. > > > I hope you will have the professional courtesy to reply that mail (remember > > it is there on wiki too). > > Sorry, but I am not supposed to reply to every email, especially if I am > working in a different direction (and I think it was clear I was working > at the launch activities). Your email answer mentions that you will be writing to me later on that issue. I only expect that you would do what you stated. Regards, -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Re: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]
Hello Charles, You really need to work on your communication skills (both listening to people and writing what you actually mean.) I have been the subject of two of your rants, both which you retracted later. Such cowboy behavior cannot be good for the community. > Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 17:26:33 +0100 > From: charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org > Hello Michael, > > Le Fri, 4 Feb 2011 00:35:40 +0930, > Michael Wheatland a écrit : > > Charles, it might be worth choosing your wording more carefully and > > steering people toward a solution rather than dictating, just as you > > have suggested others do. > > I'm not dictating, I'm merely reminding. Your "reminders" come across as royal edicts: Final and non-negotiable. To the "open source"-minded people, they look tactless and arrogant. Particularly when you have to explain them later. And then you have to agree to our POV after understanding what we really mean. So you end up looking clueless as well. > > On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 5:08 PM, charles.h.schulz > > wrote: > > > Just a reminder: > > > > > > We will not consider any move to another CMS, platform, etc. until > > > at least 6 months. At that stage (in 6 months or so) we might/may > > > perhaps *consider* (not necessarily approve) a move to a platform > > > such as Drupal. > > > > > > Until that stage: > > > 1) no discussion about Drupal on this list. > > > 2) no "major overhaul" of the website. > > > > There may be people within the community who want to consider these > > things, and they are free to do so. It's only natural for an open > > source community. > > An open source community focuses on code, not on website experiments. Who says so? Is that in the definition of "OS community"? Italo rightly recognizes the website as a marketing tool. It is NOT trivial as you imagine. By its very nature people come together according to their expertise and choice. And rather than calling them "experiments", why don't you realize that the site is nowhere nearly ready? And that is what we are talking about. > > BUT what we have been trying to discuss here is the development of the > > 'about pages', so I would suggest if you wish to discuss CMS choice > > you start another thread. > > I'm glad if improvements are done; and I'm cautiously warning against > not having discussions on CMS choice. Did you ever see "Drupal" mentioned here? Why are you fixated with it? I particularly object at your tactless way of putting it, under the circumstances. I have particularly in contributed solving Silverstripe problems, if you care to read the threads. Have I ever bashed it? > > > What this does not mean: > > > 1) we can't change the way some of the content is presented on the > > > website. (see the wiki page for this) 2) we can't improve the > > > website in minor ways. 3) we can't fix bugs. > > > > It is difficult to gauge your opinions here as some of the changes > > that people are suggesting might be considered a major overhaul rather > > than minor bug fixes. > > So let's call them "improvements"? :-) Call it whatever you like. I think it is a "yes" now, eh? > > The changes such as further development of media rich content and > > improved CSS for page structures falls under this major overhaul but > > IMO 'essential' category which I am unsure of your opinion on. > > In any case I don't think it is good to discourage this work as your > > comments seem to. > > What you describe above seems to fall for sure in improvements. So complete reversal of stand again? > > > Yes, there comes a time when the website is "completed" and where > > > only incremental improvements are needed. Again: LibreOffice is not > > > about a website nor about letting people satisfy their passion > > > about web design, at least not primarily. We do not want a website > > > that keeps on changing because people think their way is better. We > > > (the SC) do not want to reopen yet another thread about these > > > topics. The level of energy and effort spent on this topic (the > > > website) is ridiculously high compared to what we need to to work > > > on. We're therefore glad that there are people who want to help but > > > there comes a point where it's not helpful, because someone's > > > always pushing, pushing and always pushing. Same thing with respect > > > to the website confcall: we haven't agreed on working again on > > > overhauling the website, we haven't agreed on changing the website > > > team, which for the sake of clarity is composed of the same 4 > > > people the SC has appointed. > > > > > > "We (The SC)" do not dictate what the website team discusses. The SC > > suggestions and the website conf call has clearly steered us towards > > improving the site as it stands before looking for improvements in the > > infrastructure, which is occurring. But it does not stop others from > > investigating other options or proposing new ideas. The last web conference call actually did NOT c
RE: [libreoffice-website] Need for a means of "checking out" content and marking it as being worked on
That plugin looks good..why not try it? If we face problems, we can always uninstall it! :) It seems to warn only when someone else EDITS the page; not when he OPENS it. -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Re: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]
Good enough. I don't have any issues with the SC decision at all. In fact, this same unequivocal reply should have come two months ago. As I said in my first mail, we should not be forced to second-guess the SC's intent. Unfortunately, that is exactly what we have been doing because SC's message was not clear earlier. For that matter, the appointment of the as website team also came as a surprise. This was not announced through the most obvious channel (in this mail list). The information trickled through David as part of another discussion, which is very strange. Let us hope the organizational announcements are made more gracefully in future. -Narayan > Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 08:38:40 +0100 > From: charles.h.sch...@gmail.com > To: website@libreoffice.org > Subject: [libreoffice-website] Re: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep > 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages] > > Hello Narayan, everyone, > > Just a reminder: > > We will not consider any move to another CMS, platform, etc. until at least 6 > months. At that stage (in 6 months or so) we might/may perhaps *consider* > (not necessarily approve) a move to a platform such as Drupal. > > Until that stage: > 1) no discussion about Drupal on this list. > 2) no "major overhaul" of the website. > > What this does not mean: > 1) we can't change the way some of the content is presented on the website. > (see the wiki page for this) > 2) we can't improve the website in minor ways. > 3) we can't fix bugs. > > > Yes, there comes a time when the website is "completed" and where only > incremental improvements are needed. > Again: LibreOffice is not about a website nor about letting people satisfy > their passion about web design, at least not primarily. We do not want a > website that keeps on changing because people think their way is better. > We (the SC) do not want to reopen yet another thread about these topics. The > level of energy and effort spent on this topic (the website) is ridiculously > high compared to what we need to to work on. We're therefore glad that there > are people who want to help but there comes a point where it's not helpful, > because someone's always pushing, pushing and always pushing. Same thing with > respect to the website confcall: we haven't agreed on working again on > overhauling the website, we haven't agreed on changing the website team, > which for the sake of clarity is composed of the same 4 people the SC has > appointed. > > Thank you, > > -- > charles.h.schulz > Sent with Sparrow > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Work on the "Why?" pages
Hi Italo, When David wanted me to write the "Why" pages, my first reaction was that these pages should be written by the marketing team. But he wanted to finish them, so I did the job after studying how OOo positioned themselves. Right from the beginning, I have repeatedly asked how LO is positioned, but never got the reply. How is a website copywriter supposed to write without that critical insight? And now I am in the embarrassing position of having that article revoked/reworked. I do think your inputs should have come before I wrote those pages. Why do SC-members have to reverse everything post-facto while remaining inert when it counts? I don't buy this "no time" concept. You wasted my time and effort through your tardiness, and I don't like it. My point to Mike was that the same points were already listed in the website, and elaborated by David. I didn't mean it was a great job; just that it was described in great (more) details. I also gave you a detailed feedback on the logo/tagline for the website. I hope you will have the professional courtesy to reply that mail (remember it is there on wiki too). -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]
Hi Ivan, > > After all, we are NOT screening a thousand contenders to select the lucky > > winner. > > So why do you feel this compulsion to get the designer approved by the > > Design team? I wanted to bring a designer strictly one time; only for the website work (not on permanent basis). He would have done this as a big favor to me. So I proposed that he should be doing his good deed and go his way, but I could not have him judged. He would have been a rescuer, not a supplicant. > I think there might be a misunderstanding here. The focus of the > Design team is much broader than the website. For one, it has a focus > on branding, which will necessarily set constraints on the website > design (e.g. which colors to use, what kinds of styles to develop, > etc). It also has a focus on user experience, which includes (among > many other things) wireframing. From what I gather, you are interested > in these topics. They can certainly be discussed here on the website > list, but to get the big picture, I would suggest you also subscribe > to the Design list to keep up with related developments. I think > you'll be surprised by the talent we have and it would be great to > have you on board. sure! :) > > And about this "approval" per se- How appropriate is it? > > How exactly will the Design team approve the designer? > > > > You know the professional profile of my friend. > > > > Do we have bigger web professionals on board who can judge him? > > Not necessarily, but I don't like the implication of what you are > saying because you are implicitly making a judgement yourself. No one > can come in expecting a mandate to be handed over to them just because > they are a professional - they will need to show that they can make > tangible contributions to meet the needs of the project *now*. This > will allow them to establish merit and have their suggestions taken > seriously in the future. He was NOT interested in joining the team. He agreed to help out only because I requested. He would have done his design, gifted it to me (to Libo) and moved on. Why do we have to harass such good samaritans with our approval process? If our car is wrecked on the road, and if someone is offering first aid, do we subject him to full approval process? Or just grab his offer thankfully? > > And what has this to do with the OS model?? > > I refuse to believe that an OS project has to be run unprofessionally as a > > policy. > > Website design is a specialized field, and even an OS project would have to > > follow its norms. > > Yes, there are some norms we need to follow, but there are also norms > set by the project that website designers will need to follow. We are > a collaborative volunteer community, not a web design firm. The > dynamics are rather different - it can be a lot more complicated, much > slower, but also very rewarding when it's done. While handling guests. we have to be extra courteous, and not make them jump hoops in the name of rules. > > No I think the root cause is that some members lack knowledge of this field > > (website design). > > Then they try to make it up with common sense. This results in conflicts. > > I'm going to rewrite your statement in a way that I hope will make an > important point. Please don't interpret it as if it refers to you > specifically but rather try to see the point behind it (i.e., we need > 'institutional knowledge' within the project as much as we need > 'expertise' in a specific discipline): > Some members lack the knowledge of this project (LibreOffice). Then > they try to make it up with the way things are done elsewhere (be it > design school, web design firms, commercial/'real life' experience, > even other open source projects, etc). This results in conflicts. UX principles will remain universal, as applied to a website for any purpose. It has nothing to do with organizational dynamics. Are dynamics responsible for the fact that the website lacks search, tag line, AND site map? Why is it designed for reading, as against scanning? > > When two disparate Communities of Practice come together, it is best to > > give space to the core specialists. > > Ideally, we will have a mix of big picture people and specialists. I > don't mean 'big picture' in terms of a redesign; I mean 'big picture' > as in "where does the website fit in LibreOffice, which projects or > people should I ask for help on this or that task, how does the > website design reflect, represent, or develop the visual 'language' > established in the branding guidelines", etc. Design and website are > not disparate communities; like Venn Diagrams, they have overlapping > areas of interest. I meant content-writers and graphic designers are disparate groups! :) BTW you are right about the big picture- That's what we are going to discuss at the conference call. It's good to have this discussion. Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instruct
RE: [libreoffice-website] Work on the "Why?" pages
Hi Michael, This wiki is not necessary for these pages, as the advantages for each target customer segment are already identified. Further, they are GREATLY elaborated on the current website page. Wiki may be useful for new L3 pages that describe each advantage in further detail. Or to capture ideas for the pending pages, such as- * "LibO Philosophy" (Description of what niche it intends to serve) * Its unique features (preferably a description of how the feature-sets serve the niche) Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Need for a means of "checking out" content and marking it as being worked on
Hi! > Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 11:13:53 +0100 > From: o...@sophia-louise.de > But all of this (Christian's and Narayan's decisions) is a huge effort > if you only want to change some little things like misspelling, wrong > links etc. If you have seen the recent posts, I am NOT part of the decision-makers. :) It was just a suggestion, not a "decision" :) Obviously it was meant to address longer edits, not spot-changes. > I won't write many words in the todo or somewhere else when I only want > to change some letters or a link. This is not a question of how big your change is, but the possibility of its being overwritten! AFAIK unlike a VCS, Silverstripe is unable to detect/avoid check-in conflicts. That's why I suggested manual setting of a "flag" to tip off anyone who wants to edit the same page. Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Silverstripe shows faulty "broken links" report
SilverStrip shows about 24 broken links. But there are two problems: 1. I checked with a link-checker and it reported that none of the links were broken. David followed those links manually, and found them working. 2. The report does not point out which specific link is broken. If the page contains multiple links, it becomes difficult to spot the broken link. -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]
Hi David, > From: comme...@traduction.biz > For the present, you need to take account of the fact that work on the > website is currently being led by a four-person team: myself for > content, Ivan and Christoph as regards design (CSS, graphics), and > Christian. Therefore, these people have to be in agreement about the > decisions on developing the site. Oh so you four guys are the LibreOffice website decision-makers? And the rest have to work as bidden, against their professional judgment? Nice. And completely meritocratic too. > In turn, we implement the guidelines > and decisions of the SC. The SC is the final owner of the site, in its > role as custodian and federator of the community. > Therefore, no action or decisions are possible without consulting all > of the above people, with the SC having final veto. > You can certainly approach the SC and request a change as regards the > four-man team. For that, the best thing would be to come up with a > document laying out your ideas, and then to request an agenda item > before an SC meeting, so that the issue can be discussed and voted on > at the following meeting. In that case, you should be there at the > meeting, and I think you'd probably be asked to vocally present your > case. Is it not for the leadership to lay down the vision and drive it? Why have this "come with your idea and let me see if I like it" attitude? We are not even following the website design principles. The checklist proves how half-baked this project is. > But the SC will, in any case, always be the ultimate owner and > decision-taker as regards the website. That's the way it is and, in my > opinion, the way it should be. Is this autocratic or meritocratic? > Guys, it would be so much better if we could move on past these > discussions about the raison d'être of the website team. So it appears you never endorsed the agenda for the conference call? > It would be > so much easier to possibly achieve a good number of the things you > want, if we could work together contructively as a team and committed > members of the project, putting our support behind the project > governance and making a positive net contribution to the project. How can we have governance when we have self-appointed leaders who don't want to consult others and a superpower with veto? -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]
Hi David, > From: comme...@traduction.biz > Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:32:56 +0800 > @Narayan: I understand very well your thoughts and attitudes about > involving that talented graphic designer contact of yours. I also see > the need to someone to work closely with us on graphics and page > presentation. But, this is an OS project, and I don't think it can be > achieved in quite the manner you envision. > We have to remember that developing the libreoffice.org site is very > much a cooperative effort between design contributors and content > contributors, and that we need to keep Design in the loop about > things. First, let us differentiate between (a) the designer and (b) his designs for our project. The designer would produce IA+wireframe+icon proposals. The proposals are to be reviewed publicly and subject to change. It is not a "take it or leave it" offer. What is wrong with that picture? Why do we have to get the designer approved? After all, we are NOT screening a thousand contenders to select the lucky winner. So why do you feel this compulsion to get the designer approved by the Design team? And about this "approval" per se- How appropriate is it? How exactly will the Design team approve the designer? You know the professional profile of my friend. Do we have bigger web professionals on board who can judge him? And what has this to do with the OS model?? I refuse to believe that an OS project has to be run unprofessionally as a policy. Website design is a specialized field, and even an OS project would have to follow its norms. I have often heard about this "design" group, but- I have not seen its leadership for the website (providing vision, setting scope of work, planning). It failed to allocate resources to this project (e.g. graphic designer, copywriters). It has not given periodic creative feedback on the work done so far. Given that, they should not at least be a hindrance when we are struggling to manage on our own. To be fair, I have not seen any evidence that they would block us from doing any positive work. > One of the most difficult things in a project like this is > communications. Even with the best will in the world, and even with > the aid of tools like email, wikis, IM and voice chats, ideas often > fail to pass effectively and we don't end up at a general consensus. > Compromise and flexibility is needed from all of us. A great deal of > contributing to an OS project like this lies in understanding and > coming to terms with the project's sociology. No I think the root cause is that some members lack knowledge of this field (website design). Then they try to make it up with common sense. This results in conflicts. When two disparate Communities of Practice come together, it is best to give space to the core specialists. > Everyone wants the project to go forward - but often in different directions! > > There comes a time when we have to choose one path and then all > contribute to it. That was my point: The current design is way off course - Both in process and contents. See this checklist and decide for yourself: http://www.abrook.com/website-design/website-planning-checklist/ Reality check: How much is the contribution from the design team on those topics? > My humble proposal is this: I've played a leading role in *dragging* > the website in one particular direction. It was something that *had* > to be done at that time, IMHO. I'm not saying it's necessarily the > best, but it's already 80% on the road to its destination. I suggest > that we complete that work, so that the site is really in a final v1.0 > state. I think all of us agree. The second phase actually builds on the first. > Then, I suggest that we thoroughly explore all other possible options > via confcalls, wiki writing and modeling on the pumbaa server until we > arrive at a v2.0 SilverStripe website to offer to the SC for approval > - something tangible, backed-up by written presentations and > proposals. Good idea. SC should give us a lab space. Like Google labs, we should have an official idea-generation and prototyping area. > I know very well that the subject of Drupal is not gone from the minds > of several of you. Therefore, I suggest that, when libreoffice.org > v1.0 is at a finalized state, we should request the SC to request > Christian to set-up a Drupal sandbox on the pumbaa server, in parallel > to the SilverStripe sandbox. That way, you could thoroughly explore > your ideas, and could experiment and model, and build properly-working > demos that can be shown to the SC, for consideration, for whatever > applications you imagine. In fact, why not NOW? The two phases can run concurrently. And we will also work on phase-1 unreservedly. > Personally, I'd see this as a platform for progressively developing > things for a possible mid-term adoption - in 6 to 9 months time - if > the results are judged to have merit and real added-value for the > projec
RE: [libreoffice-website] Need for a means of "checking out" content and marking it as being worked on
I think the following arrangement between authors would be simplest to implement: Whenever one author takes up editing, he should write the following details in the TODO tab: 1. His own name 2. How he intends to change the page 3. By which date he intends to finish the editing Example (for the "What is LibreOffice?" page): - Name Change Estimated finish date - David Adding "product philosophy" text 1st Feb 2011 (Done) Narayan Adding "Unique features in LibreOffice" 20th Feb 2011 - Once the task is over, add "(Done)", so that the next author knows the page is freed up. As a practice, all authors should check this page out before touching the contents page. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Work on the "Why?" pages
Hi David, > Well, I only tried to warn you that you can't "attach" a graphic > designer to the website team as a separate contributor from the design > team... And that is exactly what I said, too: The website design starts with IA and wireframe; not with text. Therefore the Graphic designer is required to be part of the team from the start. That's why I said I am surprised that such an important resource was missing so far. How on earth did we straightaway launch text-writing? I am even more surprised to learn that the layout design is NOW being done, unknown to everyone. We seem to be designing the website in reverse. Anyway better late than never. I only hope that the IA and wireframe are discussed openly. This is a job to be done by web professionals. > He/she would really have to introduce himself/herself to the > Design team, present ideas for discussion, and get approval that they > comply with the graphic charter, etc. Of course, a graphic designer cannot work in isolation. In fact, marketing has to be involved actively in the IA+wireframe design phase, because the entire tone of the site is set by the graphic design. Also, the graphic designer has to explain how all target customer segments are addressed through the IA+wireframe. Now that Christoph and others are acting as graphic designer, they also should present their ideas for review. I hope the design is not settled behind closed doors and unilaterally. > Narayan, you can't just short-circuit the Design team if you want the > work to be accepted... Whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, this > project just doesn't work like that... The graphic designer is supposed to propose alternative designs. Those are supposed to be vetted by the critiques (especially marketing and copywriters). That is supposed to be the FIRST PHASE of the website design cycle. But approval of a design is NOT the same as approval of the graphic designer himself. It is neither warranted nor polite. > graphic design and page design > is something being carefully watched over by Christoph and the Design guys. This is like putting the horse before the cart: The IA+Wireframe have to be finished first. Also, why haven't we seen any comment on the present state of the website from them? > > At present, the website looks exactly like a wiki (and thence the remark > > "text text text..."). > > Apart from the LibO logo (which is a mixed up thing, as logos go), there > > are no graphics at all. > > All pages look exactly the same (Home page, L1, L2...), with no visual > > differential (with color, layout, fonts, breaks...) > > The screen space is not divided according to graphic design principles. > > The site has no tagline, search or site map (three basic things). > > Well, I disagree that it looks like a wiki... it's just that only part > of the work is done: work is needed from the design aspect, as I > originally mentioned, in cooperation with the people working on > content writing. OK let us finish that, then! :) > On the other hand, what you say about wikis suggests that you agree > that a wiki is a facility that is not organized or worked on as > promotional channel, it's a workplace where people store information > as a kind of memory pad. So it's not the place for marketing > LibreOffice. The website is where we fight the promotional battle. Correct. But more words does not win us that battle. The site must be made for SCANNING, not READING. > > It is assumed that the visitor would be interested enough to stay and soak > > up all that text (and text and text and...) > > He will look through all pages till he finds what he wants (no map, no > > search). > > We do have a wiki for LibO. So the website should be devoted to main points, > > and for details, the visitor should be taken to the Wiki. > > No, I disagree with you, Narayan. I don't think the wiki is where the > main selling of the product will be done, it's on the libreoffice.org > site. Like I just said above, the current wiki is a haphazard > collection of pages - it's more of a big notepad or brainstorming > system. The wiki is WIP: It should be put in order. Many wikis serve as manuals and tutorials also. Since we have separate odt manuals, our wiki won't be like that. So we need to fix the scope for the wiki and then work on it. But keep in mind that wiki is not part of the SEO strategy. It is meant to provide in-depth reading to people whose mind is already made up in favor of LibO. So wiki is not required so urgently as the main website. > It's not designed or intended to be a marketing and promotional > resource. But libreoffice.org *is*. See above. > > Compare the site with http://www.openoffice.org/ and > > http://why.openoffice.org/ > > I am not saying that OOo site is ideal, but at least it has many visual > > elements to hold the interest of the visitor. > > Yes, like I said, we need graphics and work on page layouts. Those > things are supposed
RE: Infrastructure "Doing" (was: Re: [libreoffice-website] Website Projectplan)
Hi Christoph, If you see the agenda for the first website team conference call, you will find the same concerns. We have actually proposed to collect the requirements of all stakeholders and then design the website to meet them. So the initiative is in the correct direction that SC wants. -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Work on the "Why?" pages
Hi all, > From: comme...@traduction.biz > I just posted an expanded version of the "Why for Home?" page. > > There's quite a bit more text in there. With someone's comment of > "text, text, text..." still ringing in my ears, i feel I'd better > explain my thinking a bit. :) Ok that "someone" was me, and I wrote all why pages originally. Well, I am surprised that no Graphic Designer is attached to the website project. I tried to bring in an excellent Graphic designer, but it seems external graphic designers are not welcome until SC or some other team gives him a thorough cavity search. So I dropped the idea. At present, the website looks exactly like a wiki (and thence the remark "text text text..."). Apart from the LibO logo (which is a mixed up thing, as logos go), there are no graphics at all. All pages look exactly the same (Home page, L1, L2...), with no visual differential (with color, layout, fonts, breaks...) The screen space is not divided according to graphic design principles. The site has no tagline, search or site map (three basic things). It is assumed that the visitor would be interested enough to stay and soak up all that text (and text and text and...) He will look through all pages till he finds what he wants (no map, no search). We do have a wiki for LibO. So the website should be devoted to main points, and for details, the visitor should be taken to the Wiki. Compare the site with http://www.openoffice.org/ and http://why.openoffice.org/ I am not saying that OOo site is ideal, but at least it has many visual elements to hold the interest of the visitor. Websites are designed by Graphic Designers, not Engineers. The text is written by copywriters, not manual-writers (the different is in slant: marketing vs engineering). Therefore we need graphic designers to redesign the pages. And copywriters to brush up (and snip away) what we have written. @Role of SEO in success of LibO: Since LibO is a OpenOffice fork, we actually do not need much help from SEO. I have already added the metatags to most pages, which should be sufficient to start with There is a separate page for Libo at Wikipedia, which also should be a big start. Wikipedia also has Libo in the first place in Open Source apps list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_applications). A major remaining step is registration with Google ASAP. Then hits will ramp up within 2-3 months, with careful tuning of metadata. ** Now that SEO (machine reading/spidering) is out of the way, we must concentrate on HUMAN readers. How can we hold THEIR interest?? We need to emphasize how LibO is different from the other versions. That should explained prominently at the website, in terms of (a) philosophy and (b) features. For example, Novell version of OpenOffice boasts of compatibility with MSO. Oracle version of OOpenOffice boasts of low download costs because of patch-based updates. We also should position the product in this cluster of "apparently same" products. -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Website Projectplan
So when is the next conference call? Let us keep aside the Silverstripe-vs-Drupal controversy, and focus on the rest. That comes as late as number-4 in the agenda (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/ConfCall/Agenda), We ought to work on the other issues first. -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-website] Working with mailing lists (was: Cursor placement off in cms editor)
Well, AFAIK mail lists have several limitations: A mail list is not optimized for issue-tracking, which was how we started. It cannot settle a multi-party argument (like this one) well (Compare with a concept map or argument map). It cannot summarize the discussion (the topics lie scattered over multiple posts, buried under symbols.) The topics cannot be (-or is not-) organized hierarchically on the server side. Each user would have to create his own hierarchy. So mostly we have to build a picture in our head and reproduce it any time it is needed. Unfortunately this is a time-waster. That's why we have wiki, forum, Concept-mapper and issue-tracker to serve those needs. Of course, any tool can be used imaginatively for other purposes, but with more pain. I have not seen a good article on how to maximally utilize mail lists (e.g. with other online services or clients). That may be the reason why I do not know much about this. Probably someone should do that, considering a lot of newcomers would e facing the same issue. Thanks, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] pie + laundry (was: Cursor placement off in cms editor)
Hi Erich,
> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 09:01:20 +0100
> From: erich_...@irq.at
> Am 01.02.2011 08:03, schrieb Narayan Aras:
> >> From: lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com
> >>>> PS: Please use a more telling subject (and separate messages for each
> >>>> problem), this makes it harder to follow (and easier to locate it in
> >>>> the archives).
> >>> Actually an issue-tracker would be the right place for that kind of thing
> >>> ("one issue at a time").
> [...]
>
> > ("You should have two separate chits under two magnets!")
> > That would be a shortcut to a stormy breakup.
>
> No sh.., this is how we are working across the lists for years ;-)
Yes, and that's why we say - Old habits (especially bad ones) need to change!
Tools evolve, and one should make a smart choice, rather than hanging on to the
past favorite.
Take OOo and LibO for example. Which way would YOU argue? :)
Narayan
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RE: [libreoffice-website] Cursor placement off in cms editor
Hi Christian,
> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 05:06:52 +0100
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] Cursor placement off in cms editor
> From: lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com
> To: website@libreoffice.org
> >> PS: Please use a more telling subject (and separate messages for each
> >> problem), this makes it harder to follow (and easier to locate it in
> >> the archives).
> >
> > Actually an issue-tracker would be the right place for that kind of thing
> > ("one issue at a time").
> No - the list is just fine, as it's important to get other people's
> confirmation and stuff.
> > The second choice would be to have a forum.
>
> No, not at all. There having all in one single entry wouldn't help
> either. You'd create seperate topics, wouldn't you?
AHA! That's the point, isn't it? THOSE tools do have their rules and
conventions.
But not mail lists: They are for casual use ("use-and-throw" messages).
Like a chit placed under the fridge magnet: "The pie is in the oven. Don't
forget the laundry. Love!".
We don't have a defined workflow there. ("You should have two separate chits
under two magnets!")
That would be a shortcut to a stormy breakup.
So if we want to deal with issues systematically, we should install tools that
are readily available.
After all, we ARE the web team. :)
Cheers!
Narayan
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RE: [libreoffice-website] Re: Silverstripe and the view of mad changes.
> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 04:56:50 +0100 > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: Silverstripe and the view of mad > changes. > From: lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com > To: website@libreoffice.org > And I don't think it is worth to change anyway. The actions on the > website will be fewer in future anyway. And then it's very helpful to > get notified on changes (IMHO). That's right. Actually I realized that there is an unintended benefit that I overlooked earlier: Often volunteers lose interest and stop participating, but they typically do not bother to de-register themselves. As a result, the site has a large number of dead accounts. However, constant alerts from CMS will make them de-register. The net result is that the site will have only active contributors. -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Cursor placement off in cms editor
Hi Christian,
> Hi Narayan, *,
Is that * a wildcard? :)
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Narayan Aras
> wrote:
> > 1. When I edited the pages, often the editor would not work where the
> > cursor is, but 2-3 character away.
> >Thus I constantly had the feeling of being squint-eyed.
> >I had a lot of trouble deleting some character- Mostly I ended up
> > deleting the wrong characters.
> >(Reporting for Firefox 3.6.13 running on Windows XP, SP-3)
>
> I updated the editor to the latest of the same minor version. It fixes
> some cursor-positioning issues, but as I've not been able to reproduce
> yours myself, I couldn't check.
>
> Please clear your browser's cache and try again.
Thanks- Will revert with feedback :)
> PS: Please use a more telling subject (and separate messages for each
> problem), this makes it harder to follow (and easier to locate it in
> the archives).
Actually an issue-tracker would be the right place for that kind of thing ("one
issue at a time").
The second choice would be to have a forum.
But since we are using THIS single mail list for everything under the sun, I
didn't bother.
Come to think of it, this mail list is NOT even meant to discuss SilverStripe
at all! :)
-Narayan
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RE: [libreoffice-website] pronunciation of Libre
Hi all,
> From: christ...@dogmatux.com
> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 18:37:54 +0100
> I'm quite late, but nevertheless ... The original thread starter was
> about the FAQ section and a reference to Google how to pronounce
> "LibreOffice".
>
> When I started the LibO branding pages, I also added what other people
> discussed so far; some time ago. You'll find recordings for LibreOffice
> (unfortunately, to different speakers) here:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding#LibreOffice
>
> But maybe a good reminder ... Florian, you once talked about a
> professional speaker who might help us. Is there any chance to ask him
> to provide a "LibreOffice" sound recording that we can make available on
> the branding pages and on the website. What do you think?
Branding pages are too obscure a place to be even noticed.
Most users will not be interested in branding. So placing the file won't serve
the purpose.
This is more like introducing ourselves at the first meeting. ("Hi! I am
Christoph.")
That's a clue to the other guy about how to address you: Christoph or Chris, or
anything YOU prefer.
Similarly, the Home page is the best place to introduce the "LibreOffice" sound.
(In the form of (a) sound file AND (b) the pronunciation key)
No visitor will miss it.
Don't forget the WikiPedia: It can spread the correct pronunciation like
wildfire!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pronunciation_respelling_key
@Sound file:
How about using a text-to-speech engine?
Since the "Libre" word is not English, it may not be pronounced well.
You can have to change the spelling several times till the engine pronounces it
correctly.
It would be better if the sound file contains a female and a male voice
repeating the name.
Some people (especially aged 40+) have difficulty in hearing a particular
frequency range.
This will help them.
Of course, a single sound file serves all websites around the World.
We can make it available (CC license) to Wikipedia.
Also plan to distribute it to non-affiliated host sites that
review/compare/rate/host software.
(Some important examples: cnet.com, download.com, alternativeto.net, etc.)
@pronunciation keys for the non-English languages:
I think Sophie would be the best person to organize this volunteers working on
each non-English website.
Regards,
Narayan
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RE: [libreoffice-website] Silverstripe and the view of mad changes.
+1 I have wanted to stop that, in fact. For regular visitors, the "recent changes" should be a good start point. There is actually NO need for those emails. I have not found a way to stop that. -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Silverstripe UI question - Annoying persistent popup
I would like to bring a fresh perspective to this debate: The pop up comes as the final step when someone submits changes. The box is designed as modal for a SPECIAL purpose: You are NOT supposed to submit any change without a justification/remark. Making it modal actually preserves the overall state while the CMS allows you to add your comment. Were it not modal, you would be able to do something with the CMS, in which case you may not be clear what you are saving. Therefore, IMHO it would be unwise to make this window modeless even if this is technically possible. Note that submitting remarks is a standard practice with any VCS (Version Control System). The version control subsystem INSIDE the CMS behaves in the same way. Now it is a different matter if this box misbehaves (it did not in my case). Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] pronunciation of Libre
> Is IPA limited to only Latin-based languages? > What phonetic methods are used in non-Latin scripts (e.g. Cyrillic, Hindi)? Sorry- I quoted "Hindi" by mistake- The Devnagari script is inherently phonetic. Ignore that and think of any other non-Latin scripts that are NOT phonetic. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] pronunciation of Libre
> From: narayana...@hotmail.com > I think the point is valid, and only a pointer to what we should be doing > next. > > Rather than only settling it on this mail list, we should ensure that the > wrong pronunciations do not take root in some parts of the World. > > Specifically- > we should put the correct pronunciation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA) at > our website and wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libreoffice). > We should also put a sound file at both these sites for those who can't read > the punctuation properly. > > Since these are the beginning days, we have a good chance to propagate the > correct pronunciation. A couple of additional considerations: We need the pronunciation guide in all languages (Not just English). (Both sites are translated into several languages, and each of them should have this guide.) Is IPA limited to only Latin-based languages? What phonetic methods are used in non-Latin scripts (e.g. Cyrillic, Hindi)? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] pronunciation of Libre
I think the point is valid, and only a pointer to what we should be doing next. Rather than only settling it on this mail list, we should ensure that the wrong pronunciations do not take root in some parts of the World. Specifically- we should put the correct pronunciation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA) at our website and wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libreoffice). We should also put a sound file at both these sites for those who can't read the punctuation properly. Since these are the beginning days, we have a good chance to propagate the correct pronunciation. Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Re: Silverstripe problems
Hi David, > >> In a peer-level multiple author scenario, the subsequent author should not > >> be accepting or rejecting what is done by the previous author(s). > *For an interim few weeks*, we aren't in a peer-level multiple-author > scenario, because it has not yet been demonstrated that this will > produce the high-quality content the site deserves. To begin with, we did NOT have multiple authors (as expected), so I was speaking in general. My statement was in a context where multiple authors have left their own changes in the same document (without accepting or rejecting the changes made by the previous author). The question is, whether the tool allows us to see what those changes are. > In addition, > authors who are not mother-tongue English speakers should always be > proofread by a mother tongue speaker before publishing. I don't see why. In fact, in US, the Spelling Bee is mostly won by second-generation Indians. Indian schools teach British English, so the parents would not be able to pass on the American tongue to their kids. Clearly, this has nothing to do with mother tongue, but the proficiency acquired by the person in question. > It's traditional in publishing circles to have an editor > stage-managing publications... When the SC takes its next decision > about the management of the website, the organization might be > completely different. ATM, I'm over-seeing the actual publication > (with open ears and an open mind to all comments and suggestions). In professional circles, the editor is supposed to mark the manuscript and get BACK to the author. Then both of them have to work out the final version. The editor is not the arbitrator. The workflow is NOT supposed to be linear, but iterative. We have "comments" and "discussion" areas for such actions, depending on the actual tool used. Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Re: Silverstripe problems
Hi Christoph, > >> 1. When I edited the pages, often the editor would not work where the > >> cursor is, but 2-3 character away. [...] > > > > I can confirm this absurdly infuriating behaviour. [...] > > I have experienced this behaviour with Firefox and Mac OSX 10.6.6. > > OK, so seems to be related to Firefox, I'm using chromium and didn't > have this effect yet. > What you might see is that when you save, the page is reloaded and > that repositions the cursor, but when the page is finished loading, I > never experienced an offset. No this is before AND after saving. Very consistent.. Very tiring. > > I might add that I haven't yet found a way to ask for someone else to > > review a change that I have saved. If you have editing and publishing > > rights, then you don't seem to be able to refer a change for review to > > someone else. Perhaps I just don't know where to look. > > Again this is wrong, Even as Publisher (and as Administrator as well), > you have the option to either bypass the workflow by saving and > publishing, or doing it in the two-step process. I already have the publishing rights. So I can save OR publish it myself. In both conditions, the diff should be available straightaway. Clearly, the GUI is not intuitive. I do know about the two-stage and three-stage processes. But then there is the third possibility of multiple authors working on the same page. Each saves the page and leaves it for the other. When the next author comes in, he has to check the previous changes and then continue. Note that unless all authors are happy, we will not publish the page. This workflow is a frequently encountered scenario. > I.e. save, then request publication, as an editor would have to do. > You can do this as publisher as well. Then you got the Workflow tab > that shows the changes and has the controls to add a comment, to > accept or reject the request. This is unnecessarily complicated. In a peer-level multiple author scenario, the subsequent author should not be accepting or rejecting what is done by the previous author(s). He should just make his own changes and save. Then the GUI should be able to show any version vs any other diff. > Save, then you got the additional request publication option Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Silverstripe problems
Hi, This is in response to Michael's report (annoying commit popup): I edited the contents, TODO and meta tags. For most parts, I saved the changes (but did not publish). I did publish a few pages later. But I never faced the "commit" pop up (unless this the box where you have to enter a string before committing). *** But I did face several other issues: 1. When I edited the pages, often the editor would not work where the cursor is, but 2-3 character away. Thus I constantly had the feeling of being squint-eyed. I had a lot of trouble deleting some character- Mostly I ended up deleting the wrong characters. (Reporting for Firefox 3.6.13 running on Windows XP, SP-3) 2. If authors save but do not publish, Silverstripe does not show those changes at all. Only published changes are shown. This is a far worse issue. You have to read the entire page and see if you still like it. Imagine what would happen if multiple people edited the same page and just saved it. 3. There is no diff with a saved version. Only published versions can be diff'd. 4. There is no find-and-replace facility. I had entered "LibO" and wanted to change it to "LibreOffice". The only way to correct that was to find each instance and paste "LibreOffice" from the clipboard. -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Hi Michael, Christoph, all- > From: mich...@wheatland.com.au > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:25 AM, Christoph Noack > wrote: [..] > > My personal wish is not so much answering these questions within the > > call, but to think about how to answer these questions with all the > > people here. What do you (all) think? IMHO it is not possible to reach a conclusion through even MULTIPLE meetings. If we attempt to get full answers, the first meeting would not go beyond the 1.x topics. @Verbal vs. written vs visual discussion: Verbal discussion is the least suited tool; because it is easy to overlook/ignore important aspects. Also, since many participants are non-English; a discussion would not be convenient. Discussion on wiki ranks next-worst, because people can expound on their theories without reaching a consensus. A option-selection tool such as Ubuntu Brainstorm is next-best, as it allows arguments in favor of a given option. But it works best when the problem and optional solutions are clearly known beforehand. For free-wheeling discussion and deriving solutions, concept-mapping (or argument-mapping) is the best tool. It can be installed on Drupal (SilverStripe does not have any similar tool). Alternatively a CMAP instance can be set up on a server temporarily. @How to remove "Not invented here" bias: I know people are still thinking about a faceoff between Silverstripe and Drupal. To remove such bias, CS should establish a "Lab" domain on the LibreOffice site. This is like the famous Google labs, where things would be tried out within a closed group, before rolling out on large scale. Anything new -be it "Drupal" or any other tool- should be tried there after getting approval. The proposer should create a project charter and publish it for general discussion and approval. > > [1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/ConfCall/Agenda > I totally agree that we will likely not be able to answer the > questions in the call, as the answer to many of these questions will > require consultation with many other teams. > The expectation, as I understand it, is to assign specific people to > work at the interface between these teams, who have both the knowledge > of 'what is possible' and knowledge on the given topic. I would like to be on that team. Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Please review the "Get involved" pages from within SilverStripe (Especially the TODO tab)
Hi SC-members and others, Yesterday we composed the "Get involved" pages in SilverStripe. In the work so far (including the "why" pages), we realized that we can make a much stronger promise to our potential customers AND contributors if we make certain arrangements first. Otherwise we will end up making lame promises. For example, in the "why for businesses"page, we have to address their concerns about (a) high-quality training and (b) support with a guaranteed SLA. Now what program do we have to create a global workforce of qualified (certified) trainers and support people? There has to be (a) training course (b) training content (c) delivery criteria (d) exams and passing criteria and (e) certification program. Without such infrastructure, how can we tell the businesses that they will achieve peak productivity without training or service? We came across similar issues while making persuasive arguments for the "Get involved" pages as well. For example, to attract students, do we have programs like GSoC? Or a mentor program? Thousands of college students in their final years of IT/IS courses are on the lookout for serious projects. Can we offer them real-world projects and certify their contribution in the end? Third, for school/college users, we need to bundle templates specifically tailored for them. For example, templates for creating the curriculum plan, question-papers, answer sheet, dissertation, resumes, etc. This is the strategy adopted by Lyx (the LaTex-based document processor) that dominates in university circles. Once you select the template, all you have to do is to type. We also need to bundle sample files for complex concepts, so that users can follow these examples in the user manual. One example is how to design a database (design tables, set keys, design queries and views). Another example is how to use complex operations in calc (e.g. "what if-" scenarios, datapilot and outline). More such points are noted in the TODO list of SilverStripe. Please have a look and let us finalize what is to be done. Note that the "live" website does not show these latest pages (those pages are not published yet). Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...])
:) Since I am a related party, I'll jump in. The IA and wireframe (aka "page layout") were supposed to be frozen long ago after vigorous reviews, no? :) Last-minute changes in these fundamental aspects are not easy. But we SHOULD do that review (maybe as soon as next week?) David and I believe that this is the "get things DONE" phase. After the release, we will easily switch to "get things RIGHT" mode. Hope everyone agrees. Back to work, now- everyone! There's no time to lose! :) -Narayan > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: > [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...]) > From: christ...@dogmatux.com > To: website@libreoffice.org > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 23:00:26 +0100 > > Hi David, > > thanks for the try ... although I know that time is running :-) > > (Now here comes my famous) But ... > > Am Montag, den 24.01.2011, 11:09 +0800 schrieb David Nelson: > > Hi Christoph, :-) > > > > I'm sorry, friend, but I've just been talking with Narayan about the > > options, and what you are suggesting would involve re-designing the > > whole IA. It will mess up everything and cause us numerous other > > problems to solve in other places. > > True. > > > And, honestly, I don't really agree with your point about this anyway. > > Personally, I feel the Why pages are just fine where they are. > > The "Why" pages are not the big deal at the moment - although the > position seems strange since "Home" is a different kind of page in > comparison with the other ones. Here is an example what the Germans did > a week (or so) ago - they added the top-level link "Anwender" (Users/ > Usage) to the page: > http://de.libreoffice.org/anwender/ > > To be honest, I'm more worried about the menu behavior as I pointed out > earlier. I fear that some users will get confused - so I'd like to ask > you to consider this if the dust settles a bit. I'd like to solve that > issue with you, Ivan and all the other guys here. And by the way, I've > asked Ivan if there is an easy solution to "tweak" the highlighting. > Unfortunately ... not :-\ > > > We have other things to get done urgently to get the site properly > > ready, and I'm afraid I just don't have time for this. > > > > It is not the right time, mate, sorry. :-( > > > We need to be happy that the site exists, and that it's looking clean, > > and that there is valuable information and content for our users. > > True :-) > > > And I'm sure that you also have more important things to focus on: > > icons, the new design team members, etc... > > Oh, it is like in the blog posting by Florian - it's hard to find the > right priority for all these tasks :-) Here, I'd like to make sure that > most people are not only happy with the content, but also with the > navigation. The more users can effortless navigate the pages, the more > downloads, the more supporters, the more ... > > > Anyway, I hope you understand my POV and don't feel badly about it. > > Concerning the latter: no. Since I know that you also have to focus on > several things at the same time. But I feel free to bother you again > very soon, since it's still an issue :-) Okay? > > Cheers, > Christoph > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...])
Hi Christoph, We gave this idea a quick run, and it really did not work out for the entire menu system, either logically or esthetically... It actually breaks the system at some places. Fixing that would take enormous time and effort. Given that we are so close to the D-day, any rethinking on the site would affect the overall readiness of the site. So it is better to keep this for later! Maybe we will call for a full review. :) BTW we desperately need graphic designers to spruce up the site with some clip art/icons. Regards, Narayan > From: comme...@traduction.biz > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:26:57 +0800 > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: > [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...]) > To: website@libreoffice.org > > Hi Narayan, guys :-) > > On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 10:02, Narayan Aras wrote: > > @location of "why" pages: > > Logically, the reader should come across "why Libreoffice" right AFTER > > "what is LibreOffice?". > > So we may have to rearrange this. David? > > Hm... Personally, I really don't honestly see any problem with the > Why pages right where they are... But i know it will mean a big > rearrangement of the content and a lot of work at a point when we are > nearing the release, when there is a lot of other important work to > do, and when I don't really have much time for it... > > @Narayan: We can talk about it together. If you have any brilliant > ideas, I'm all ears. But the prospect does *not* fill me with joy... > > @Christoph: So where do you suggest we put these pages then? > > David Nelson > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...])
On second thoughts, I did see Christoph's point, David. And this applies to all second-level menu strips (not just the Home page). The problem is this: When we land on any page using the top menu strip, we see a page. We also see a second level menu in which none of the items are highlighted. So the visitor could wonder whare he is. Probably it may be better to avoid a full page for any of the top-level menu items. That means only second-level menu items have content pages. By default, the first menu items in the second level menu would be selected. For example, in the second-level menu strip of the "Home" page, add a "General" menu item at left. So now the second-level strip would look like [General Why for Home? Why for Businesses? ] This "General" menu item would be selected by default, and show the content that is currently shown on the Home page. The user can then select the other menu items in the second strip and check specific uses (business/home/education...). Regards, Narayan > From: narayana...@hotmail.com > To: website@libreoffice.org > CC: des...@libreoffice.org > Subject: RE: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: > [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...]) > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:32:45 +0530 > > > Hi Christoph, > > How on earth did you find out so soon, it was me? :) > > We finished the first round yesterday night. Both David and I have the same > habit: We brush up the content in several passes, and keep doing it till it > is perfected. Now that we are in the SEO-optimization phase, this habit is > going to be very useful! :) > > But the point is that the site is ready for the launch. No missing content or > links. All the required sections fully completed. > The SEO-optimization will continue for the next 2-3 months. > > @Duplication: Sometimes the same information is "almost" replicated in > different pages, because some people search for a specific combination, and > the combination of page title, meta tags and content has to show up in search > engines. That's why we have to provide different combination. > > Similarly, right now the description looks "to the point". But after we > analyze the Google page rankings, we may have to repeat the same information > in equivalent terms (on the same page or multiple pages), so that their > ranking goes up. This would result in a page that looks a bit odd to the > reader. But finally we need more people to land on the page through search > engines, so such deliberate repetition is unavoidable. > > @location of "why" pages: > Logically, the reader should come across "why Libreoffice" right AFTER "what > is LibreOffice?". > So we may have to rearrange this. David? > > Regards, > Narayan > > > Subject: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: > > [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...]) > > From: christ...@dogmatux.com > > To: website@libreoffice.org > > CC: des...@libreoffice.org > > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:42:20 +0100 > > > > Hi Jaron, David, > > > > thanks a lot to you both! Well appreciated - at the moment it's much fun > > to see the site evolve :-) And, I already used the revised text to > > invite some more people within our community to join the Design Team. > > > > David, just a side note: I've noticed the new "Why for ..." pages that > > provide great content (thanks to the creator, Narayan?). But here some > > things I've noticed as well: Very similar information is now available > > for "Features" (LibreOffice) and "Home", and the location "Home" might > > be misleading for the "Why..." elements. (Example: If the user opened > > "Get Help" and just sees "Home" as the main menu item, might he think > > that the "Why" elements are located there?) Furthermore, the link to > > "See what LibO can do for you" now seems a bit strange. > > > > Could you please tell me whether you are still working on that? If not, > > may I provide some more thoughts (structure, punctuation, outline, > > links, ...)? > > > > Cheers, > > Christoph > > > > Am Montag, den 24.01.2011, 04:15 +0800 schrieb David Nelson: > > > Hi Jaron, :-) > > > > > > I already proofread Christoph's draft and put it on the site, but many > > > thanks anyway. ;-) > > > > > > David Nelson > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www
RE: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...])
Hi Christoph, How on earth did you find out so soon, it was me? :) We finished the first round yesterday night. Both David and I have the same habit: We brush up the content in several passes, and keep doing it till it is perfected. Now that we are in the SEO-optimization phase, this habit is going to be very useful! :) But the point is that the site is ready for the launch. No missing content or links. All the required sections fully completed. The SEO-optimization will continue for the next 2-3 months. @Duplication: Sometimes the same information is "almost" replicated in different pages, because some people search for a specific combination, and the combination of page title, meta tags and content has to show up in search engines. That's why we have to provide different combination. Similarly, right now the description looks "to the point". But after we analyze the Google page rankings, we may have to repeat the same information in equivalent terms (on the same page or multiple pages), so that their ranking goes up. This would result in a page that looks a bit odd to the reader. But finally we need more people to land on the page through search engines, so such deliberate repetition is unavoidable. @location of "why" pages: Logically, the reader should come across "why Libreoffice" right AFTER "what is LibreOffice?". So we may have to rearrange this. David? Regards, Narayan > Subject: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: > [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...]) > From: christ...@dogmatux.com > To: website@libreoffice.org > CC: des...@libreoffice.org > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:42:20 +0100 > > Hi Jaron, David, > > thanks a lot to you both! Well appreciated - at the moment it's much fun > to see the site evolve :-) And, I already used the revised text to > invite some more people within our community to join the Design Team. > > David, just a side note: I've noticed the new "Why for ..." pages that > provide great content (thanks to the creator, Narayan?). But here some > things I've noticed as well: Very similar information is now available > for "Features" (LibreOffice) and "Home", and the location "Home" might > be misleading for the "Why..." elements. (Example: If the user opened > "Get Help" and just sees "Home" as the main menu item, might he think > that the "Why" elements are located there?) Furthermore, the link to > "See what LibO can do for you" now seems a bit strange. > > Could you please tell me whether you are still working on that? If not, > may I provide some more thoughts (structure, punctuation, outline, > links, ...)? > > Cheers, > Christoph > > Am Montag, den 24.01.2011, 04:15 +0800 schrieb David Nelson: > > Hi Jaron, :-) > > > > I already proofread Christoph's draft and put it on the site, but many > > thanks anyway. ;-) > > > > David Nelson > > > > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Comments on LibreOffice website (was "Not authorized to access" error).
Major items pending: 1. Site map 2. Global search Can we implement a search with a filter pane on the left that shows sections of the LibreOffice website? When a user clicks on the section, only those matches should be shown. (Like how Google search offers a filter pane on the left, with options such as web, Blog, video, images, books, etc.) Note that if we break up the website into different servers/CMS, any search cannot be global. For example, we will have to search separately in forums, FAQs, other pages and wiki. This is a user's nightmare. I don't know if we can in the search, conduct the search simultaneously in all those domains and then present a combined result with the filter pane at the left side so that use can look in the appropriate place. -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Not authorized to access error.
Hi David, This is the first installment. :) 1. The LGPL license for LibO (http://www.libreoffice.org/about-us/license/) is not related to the organization. It can be moved to the "Download" section. Also, place a hyperlink from the Home page (linked from the words "open source") 2. On the http://www.libreoffice.org/features/base/ page, more screenshots can be added to show the table/query/view design. 3. IMHO there are some issues with the LibreOffice logo and branding. I had posted these issues when I reviewed Mike's version, and later I have sent an email to Italo. It would be better if he takes his final call at this stage. 4. The description for Base should be changed to match the description styles of other components. Compare "Dynamic Data Delivered" for Base with "A Spreadsheet That Meets Any Need" for Calc. (A better version would be "A powerful front-end for multiple databases") 5. I think the help page http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ should be turned into a table, because it has distinct attributes. I could make that table. Let me know... 6. The "System Requirements" page is placed under "Get help" group. It should be placed with the "Download" page, under the same group. 7. The FAQ has a question on How to install LibO. It jumps to- http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/faq/general-faq/how-do-i-install-libreoffice/ If you click on Windows link there, it again jumps to yet another dummy page- http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/installation/#Installing_Libreoffice_on_Windows But this page is not the real "installation instructions for windows" page. It has three links for Win, Mac and Linux (why once again?). When you click on the "Windows" link, you get the actual page- http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/installation/windows/ The page in the middle of that chain should be removed. 8. Instead of linking the screenshot to download page, can we link the switch to all six components? Also, switch a part of the description to match the changing screenshots. For example, when the visitor clicks on the Calc screenshot, he lands on http://www.libreoffice.org/features/calc/ page. 9. The home page paragraph is too short and skips over several topics. It may need more tabs to cover all merits (with more topical screenshots) of LibO. 10. Different target users have different interests. So we should use those keywords to describe the product. The following is not fully ready text, but someone can easily make the final text with it. Govt-> word processor, spreadsheet, presentation, graphics, database designer. Open code that can be inspected (no security threat), covers all office work, already available in x world languages, more translation possible easily (can we offer turn-key projects for new languages?), ISO/IEC 26300-compliant ODF protects from obsolescence of protocol- The files can be kept in records for a long time and still be readable in future. Teacher/Student-> word processor, spreadsheet, presentation, graphics, database designer. Becauase of LGPL, LibO can be freely used, copied, modified for local uses and distributed. No license costs (even download costs are shared amongst copies). Students can use LibO code to hone their own programming skills. Free templates for thesis, books, lesson-plans, etc. (LibO should bundle more of these templates.) Business (small->enterprise) --> word processor, spreadsheet, presentation, graphics, database designer; conversion to pdf to make documents unalterable (read-only); Mass-mailing and mass-emailing allows contacting clients with minimal effort; compatible with other office packages and legacy documents (LibO is supposed to have an edge over OOo. Can we mention ALL brands and old versions of Office that are compatible??). No licensing costs. Low cost: Just one download can serve the entire organization. Huge ecosystem (mention the number of service-providers and the variety of service they provide); guaranteed service (mention support organizations). No delays in retyping, no errors. (Add the benefits of XML-based documentations...). Compatibility with DTP (Scribus) helps you make professional printed documents and brochures. Allows collaborative documentation with virtual teams spread around the world. Businesses may be worried about four aspects: Guaranteed license, authentic high-quality training, how to get certain features immediately, and high-quality support. We should reassure them on these fronts by introducing an ecosystem that has TDF-approved training-providers and qualified/Certified support personnel. How about offering to run sponsored projects to develop certain features ahead of time (but where the code remains open source)? Home/SoHo -> word processor, spreadsheet, presentation, graphics. Only download cost, can be freely used on multiple computers, no license hassles. We should also explore (and exploit) o
RE: [libreoffice-website] Not authorized to access error.
Sure David! I would be delighted to help with the preparations. In fact, I started with the manuals as I thought not many people would focus there, as you were all busy with the site. I have found some mistakes with Base chapter (the screenshot and description don't match. How to settle that faster? Bugzilla or at website? For the website, I will revert with comments in 2-3 hours. BTW I expected you guys too busy with the release to really have that conf call. Also, w/o some written proposals (a preliminary round at wiki) we will have a fight on our hands. So my own preference would be to push it back till 3.3 is out. :) What's your IRC address, just in case I need to contact you for a quick check/exchange of tips? Cheers! Regards, Narayan > From: comme...@traduction.biz > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 21:52:42 +0800 > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] Not authorized to access error. > To: website@libreoffice.org > > Hi Narayan, :-) > > You don't feel like jumping and helping out with some work this weekend? ;-) > > http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Work-on-the-libreoffice-org-content-sitrep-2011-01-22-td2308145.html > > David Nelson > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Not authorized to access error.
The following page shows "You are not authorized to access this page. " error: http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/project/DrawingTags Accessible through this route: 1. http://www.libreoffice.org/features/extensions/ 2. http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:OpenOfficeExtensions/List -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
I think with the stated agenda, much more time would be required. Or else we would not be doing justice to the topics. At least the positions for each topic should be stated in a wiki page. When disparate positions are written down, they is better expressed and easier to understand (especially useful for people who are cannot express their thoughts in spoken English). Others can ascertain finer nuances of any statement and avoid drawing hasty conclusions. This will prevent any impulsive reactions during the call. Opening any of the agenda directly in the call would be a mistake. Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] New website conf call agenda (was: Re: new features page ...)
Hi! :) Looking back at my reply I realized that I could not explain my point fully. While the agenda at the web conference is for long-term planning, it is NOT a substitute for the short-term planning. With barely a few days (or even hours) left for the D-day, I only expect furious single-minded activity. In fact, my original proposal was "people can join after 3.3 is released". But when this call was planned between David and Mike, I thought maybe there is enough time. So if the team-members feel that the short-term goal should be dealt with first, naturally I agree. Just postpone the call till the 3.3 and support system are deal with. Do I still see some "us vs. them" attitude under the surface? :) Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] New website conf call agenda (was: Re: new features page ...)
Hi Nino! What you are suggesting is equivalent to an internal review amongst the team-members. Our aim is to establish the long-term vision, and then derive the short/mid term action-plan to achieve that goal. Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] How to avoid a pressure cooker situation in the meeting
Hi Mike, David, all- The agenda has 10 topics. Too many for a 1 hour session. (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/ConfCall/Agenda). We will have only 5 minutes to settle each topic. The discussions will not be conclusive in this pressure cooker situation. Then we will come to the "storm" (or "fission") stage even before we realize! :) Having a series of calls is not feasible, as that approach needs a lot of time. Besides, we are finding it difficult to set up this FIRST call itself. So setting up so many calls till we trash out all issues is virtually impossible. Therefore, it is best to settle at least the fundamental differences offline. That leaves the main meeting to settle finer details, and to ratify what was agreed offline. Assuming that we agree to use an offline tool to argue our case, the next question is "which tool"? Well, the simplest tool (which is also readily available) is a wiki discussion page. However, it cannot handle counterarguments that have to be attached to a specific part of someone else's statement. Also, when in a multi-person argument, it would quickly become confusing who is opposing whose views fully/party/conditionally. In other words, it cannot create an argument map properly. (Which is the need of the hour). A concept map does that extremely well. Another advantage of a Concept map is that it also allows us to split a larger issue, and discuss the parts separately and then combine the conclusions again. Concept map also allows us to interrelate different streams of arguments as the plot gets larger with more and more arguments added. Note that no other tool is good at this. Therefore I suggest using a concept map tool like CMAP, Freemind, graphmind. or even brainstorm. Someone will need to set up this tool temporarily. What do you think? If you have any doubt, we could try out one (contentious) topic on a wiki discussion page. Regards, Narayan > Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:11:33 +0930 > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: new features > page ... > From: mich...@wheatland.com.au > To: website@libreoffice.org > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 3:41 AM, Charles Marcus > wrote: > > On 2011-01-17 8:39 AM, David Nelson wrote: > >> But I see a chance to bring him back into the mainstream of the > >> project by encouraging him (and his "Drupal boys") to take a leading > >> role in the development of the SilverStripe website as a superb > >> communications and marketing tool for Libreoffice and TDF. > > > > I also think that, if Michael were so inclined, Drupal could initially > > serve as the 'support' backend, with its potential for integrating all > > of the different support modes (email lists, forums and newsgroups)... > > this would give it the opportunity to 'prove' itself (personally, I have > > no idea if Drupal can even truly achieve this, much less is preferable > > over Silverstripe)... > > > >> I can still be there to play an assistive role in the wings, with > >> some great ideas, too. But Michael could take on the main written > >> content development role, working in close symbiosis with Christoph > >> and Ivan. I feel they will have a close empathy and an excellent > >> working relationship. > >> > >> I feel that this is a novel and creative solution to what could > >> otherwise become a conflictual and unproductive situation. We will > >> all win. Most important of all, LIBREOFFICE and TDF will win. > >> > >> What do you think? I am including Michael in this mail, and I want > >> to hear his feelings on this. > > > > I think its a great idea if Michael is willing to take it on... > > > > Best regards, > > > > Charles > > Charles, > I like the idea, but I think it is worth waiting for the conference > call to discuss. > This is achievable, however it will take some time setting up and > configuring, and in the same time we could have all the same > functionality as the existing site on one unified system, allowing us > to automatically manage all of the cross links between the systems. We > might end up creating a monster that we need to manually manage. I > will look into the possibilities prior to the meeting. > > Again, it is a great idea. I will add it to the agenda for the Conference > Call. > > Thanks, > Mike Wheatland > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: RE : Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
That's fine. I have set already talkyoo in Skype. :) Thanks! Narayan > From: comme...@traduction.biz > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:41:12 +0800 > Subject: Re: RE : Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team > inauguralconference call > To: website@libreoffice.org > > Hi Narayan, :-) > > I will be updating the info on the website wiki before the call, and > will post a link to it on the list here. > > You can dial in to various numbers, or you can call a Skype user > called talkyoo (it works fine for me, and is free). > > David Nelson > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: RE : Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Hi all, Can someone tell me what's the process for the call? I checked the Doodle site, but there is nothing there... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Good points (as always), Christoph! This is exactly what we expect from SC: Know the pulse of the community and guide any effort. Tailoring by SC is essential. I know I read the "bare act" from CMMI and PMBOK, but that's not how we should/would be applying it. Any corporate project and community project would differ. We know that. Even within the corporate world also the implementation is not that strict. We also know that. :) Any implementation must be tempered with realistic assessment of how comfortable the target user would be. So the idea is not to build an ivory tower and believe everyone will be happy living there. The "Requirement Elicitation" phase will take care of the actual needs (and unmet needs that new tools can achieve). Just think why develop LibO when OOo is already there for the same user class. Is it the act of defiance of a few misfits at Oracle, who were thrown out for being uncooperative? No I'd like to believe it was for a higher purpose; a long-term vision. When the project is driven with loftier principles, it is supposed to yield a superior result. It's the same thing with the website too! And again repeating myself, I am CMS-neutral. The requirement elicitation from stakeholders has nothing to do with what CMS is used. > Mmh, maybe I've missed that - but what would be one of the solutions you > have in mind? Actually I used YOUR post at the mail list to suggest a possible solution. It's not a ready-made module from any CMS, BTW. And this very case illustrates the point: First I missed your post, and had to actually Google all your posts and dredge through each post. When I found the right one (BUT under a wrong title), I put up a suggestion. Then it was SC's turn to miss that. Even to dig it up would be an effort now. How long do we carry on with this farce? The mail list is like throwing words in the wind. or tunneling in sand. Everything is lost almost instantaneously. So are you convinced now? It is the "ease of offline access" vs. "searchability, collation of ideas, permanence". Pick one. Or the other three. > What I've experienced in the last years was, that the most challenges > are in the communities that start to grow - for example in countries > where education is still a challenge (and LibreOffice a key). Less > reliable power connections, almost no Internet connection, ... On the > other hand, LibreOffice has some real chances to grow there and improve > people's life. > Okay, just an example - but such constraints make it really interesting > to identify most requirements, because the workflows are "dictated" by > external circumstances. The magic is and will be, to bring that > together. > > To come back to the previous question, I think that mailing list have > their drawbacks - absolutely agreed. But I think they are one valid part > of the solution. I find that a little strange: We care about a few kBs for the contributors. A dropped line is not a big catastrophe. It's only a mail list, where a missed mail is as good as gone anyway. Compared to number of contributors, the number of users is multifold. Each user is facing exactly the same internet problem. And he has to download several hundred MBs each time over low bandwidths. The consequence of broken link is catastrophic. And yet LibO requires full download for each version. Immediately after taking over, Oracle made OOo upgradable. Oracle cares about this. We don't. We pander to the contributors instead. How much time was devoted to making LibO upgradable with patches? And it serves to block out the new tools. (No offense.) > > > I am not a web site expert, but I am a member of the SC and in addition > > > I am the one coordinating marketing (you might complain about this, but > > > I got the trust of the founders based on seven years of activity inside > > > the OOo community). In order to approve an approach, you have to "sell" > > > it before even starting to work at it. > > > > Well, note that the mail lists cannot distinguish between "approved" tasks, > > "unautorized" tasks and "new proposals". > > Further, within an approved project, you cannot control each and every > > aspect that is proposed. > > This is an inherent weakness of mail list. > > Mmmh, is that tied to mailing list? When thinking about what I've > experienced so far, it is easy to "break" any tool :-) The more people > participate, the earlier it will happen. Oh, "more people", seems a > reasonable thought ... Let me explain: When someone (from a large pool of volunteers) posts a mail- 1. He may not be talking about an SC-approved "project" 2. He may be proposing something altogether new, which has an impact on policy. 3. he may be planning out the implementation in line with an SC-approved project 4. His proposal may violate/transgress our code of conduct In this chatter, any deviation from SC's goals/policies cannot be easily spotted or regulated. SC will be reduced to censuri
RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
> >> For instance, the Italian association (I am the president) has a web > >> site which is never going to be officially connected to TDF and/or > >> LibreOffice. > > > > Even assuming that there are some independent sites on LibO, how does that > > fact impact our strategy? > > The users of that site are simply not OUR stakeholders. > > Wrong, they are extremely important as a stakeholder, because they are > advocating at local level. They are spreading the message, they are > promoting and supporting the software. I don't get it. You want to run an independent site for LibO, without even any crosslinks. Are you proposing any interfaces between the sites and/or communities? > > And fortunately, there is no "history" attached with LibO community, right? > > So we have this wonderful opportunity to use the latest and most powerful > > tools. > > Wrong, there are ten years of history coming with us, and people already > used to some tools. TDF announcement has stated clearly that this is the > evolution of the OOo project and not a revolution. If you refuse to > accept this fact there will never be an agreement. And that's why we want to involve the stakeholders. That's the elicitation process. The idea is not to change the tools for the heck of it. The stakeholders should see benefits (the change management concepts do apply). > > Still, I wouldn't say the project has gone out of control. > > Which specific road map or milestones are being violated/missed here? > > From your message, it is quite clear that the website team started from > the assumption that this is a new community, and this is definitely a > wrong assumption for this specific community. > Continuity has always been a key statement: this is the old OOo > community evolving towards a different and better future, not into a new > and different community. Obviously we cannot have a totally new community instantly, simply because most people joined from OOo, with a common past experience. The OOo community has also evolved in last 10 years, and it will continue evolving further. Please share SC's vision on how LibO product and community would evolve differently from OOo. Also what should be the pace of this evolution (with the help of some milestones). If long-term and medium-term goals are set, we will know the direction better. Otherwise it just looks like "just don't do anything till I say so". Which is what we started with. BTW using a different set of tools does not mean a revolution either. I have changed a huge number of tools for various purposes. I even use two different sets of tools at work and at home. What's the big deal? > I would not call this a violation but a misunderstanding. If you prefer > the term violation, let's say that the assumption that this is a new > community is a violation of the road map. I meant violation of "road map" in terms of versions, milestones, etc. against time. Have we missed any of them because the web team is working elsewhere? Then that should be communicated so that forces are rallied to meet those targets. Regards, -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
> > BTW I have consistently maintained that mail lists are not suitable to > > capture such matters. > > There are easy solutions available. But SC is not interested. > > So SC has to blame itself for (a) not reading the mail list. and (b) not > > installing proper tools. > Can we say that the SC did not receive enough inputs to correct these > mistakes? We have gone through months of 18 hours per day work schedule > and we have probably been less responsive than we should have been. But > it should be clear that we are volunteers with a professional and a > personal life, and we are far from being perfect. It is the other way around: SC has not communicated its vision properly/enough. Worse, SC has also not responded to the ongoing chatter in mail lists to set things right periodically. While SC was COMPLETELY absent from the battlefront, the volunteers rallied at the mail list, and charted the course. Volunteers are not androids who will stay in cupboards till needed. They too love the excitement of creating something that was never done before. Why rap their knuckles for it? And where does the wisdom lie- In insulting/sacking such volunteers or in letting them do it? Charles delivered the same ultimatum to the web team that he probably heard from Oracle. How are we "liberated"? How are we better? And why does SC feel threatened by this voluntary enthusiasm? You should be thrilled! > Well, note that the mail lists cannot distinguish between "approved" tasks, > "unautorized" tasks and "new proposals". > > Further, within an approved project, you cannot control each and every > > aspect that is proposed. > > This is an inherent weakness of mail list. > > This is true. > > > Otherwise Sc can NOT keep track of which mails are within scope and which > > are extraneous. > > This is true as well. > > > Even with this, SC can NOT prevent members from making new proposals. > > I think that here lies one misunderstanding. New proposals are welcome, > but they should consider the history of the project and start from here > (therefore, if the new proposal diverges from the history, then it is > important to get consensus before going forward). That's the most inefficient way to work in a loosely formed organization. It would be better create a project for each approved proposal, and run it strictly within its scope/budget/time. Like how any software project runs. Then the SC can be in control. And believe me no one will mind. > As I said somewhere: evolution and not revolution. We can, and should, > change radically some habits, but it takes time. Sometimes, it takes twice > the effort. Correct, and it is the volunteers who are straining the most! Let SC be supportive at least, if not leading the wave. > > Either lead, be lead or get out of the way! Sleeping at the helm is not a > > viable option. > > We were not sleeping but doing other things. Yes, this was a mistake. Well, as the volunteers see it, SC had abandoned post. That's it. As a marketing professional, you would appreciate that it is the public perception that matters, not the reality. Now SC should be gracious and gain respect of public through generosity and magnanimity, not through coercion. > > Look, pedigree is useful in a dog show, not here. > > I think we should focus on merit of an idea, not WHO proposed it. > > Of course, but sometimes experience helps. In sever years, I never > talked about my background, and in this case it was just an example. > Someone has to judge the merit of an idea, and experience allows to have > at least a more informed judgement. Sorry- If we hope to create a truly meritocratic society, we should actively mask the sources. > Stakeholder is a common word of my profession, and I understood roles as > well. The problem is that the website strategy was to have the web as > the entry point, and this was a mistake. > > History tells us that the web is not the entry point to the project. > This might change in the future. In fact, almost all operations would be achieved through internet. Recruiting volunteer is a small part of it. What about issue-tracker? Configuration management? Release management? Project management? Documentation? These activities would also be through the website. > I would dare to say that most volunteers today participate without ever > accessing the web site. Again, this might change in the future, but I do > not see this happening for many people. > > For instance, in Italy there is a gentleman (nickname Martello, which > means Hammer in Italian) who is generating on a monthly basis a PDF FAQ > document based on the newsgroup discussions (over 3000 pages now) and > has never accessed the web site. > > This is just an example. There is some misunderstanding. Website does NOT mean Drupal (or SilverStripe for that matter). The complete software development would be done through the website. In fact, parts of the website would
RE: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Would it be possible to record the call and post a MP3 (with the MoMs) so the absentees can listen in later? Thanks! > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:07:02 +0930 > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural > conference call > From: mich...@wheatland.com.au > To: website@libreoffice.org > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Karl-Heinz Gödderz < > libreoff...@gukk-online.de> wrote: > > > Hi David, ;-) > > > > David Nelson schrieb: > > > Hi, :-) > > > > > > Micheal and I (or whoever else is appointed to leadership/coordination > > > roles) will certainly liaise closely and regularly with the SC during > > > SC confcalls, so that there are *no* communications failures. > > > > > > David Nelson > > > > > > > > I didn't think about communication failures but about attitudes/mindsets. > > > LibreOffice is an open community. We are personally inviting all of those > people who have already contributed to the website team and infrastructure. > The reason LibreOffice exists is to encourage grass roots development and > community building, rather than having to seek permission from a higher > power, ie Oracle. > LibreOffice is about meritocracy, structurally organising the team and > coordination clearly has merit for the whole community. > > The reason we are organising this is to improve the leadership, development, > coordination and communication within the website team. > There have been some mistakes made over the past few months, David as a > "Leader" appointed by the SC and myself are working together to unite the > website team, enable discussion and decisions rather than dictate, and map > out the roadmap for the LibreOffice website in an official capacity as the > team responsible for the web infrastructure. > > Any members of the SC who wish to actively contribute to the website team > are more than welcome to join the conference call and as a team we must > negotiate the best outcome for the community. > I have faith that members of the SC have respect for the website team enough > to respect and uphold decisions made by the team and the community. > The only attitude and mindset we need to think about is respectful > collaboration. > > I hope this clarifies things, > Michael Wheatland > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
And you, don't play the "clueless leader". See this mail first:http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/msg01422.html. I specifically asked whether Drupal was official. Why did it go on for ages without a clear "yes" or "no" answer. I have specifically remarked that the SC decision is ambivalent; and that we should not be made to second-guess SC's decisions. http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/msg01425.html Later the thread settled and then I started work. Not before. > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:27:51 +0100 > From: oo...@nouenoff.nl > To: website@libreoffice.org > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed > opportunities > > Hi gang, > > Narayan Aras wrote (19-01-11 10:22) > > > The whole work was in accordance with SC's decision. > > Pls don't play the killed innocence here. > There were enough mails that should have make you think. > > Best, > Cor > > -- > - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi Italo, > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 13:13:55 +0100 > From: italo.vign...@gmail.com > To: website@libreoffice.org > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed > opportunities > > On 1/18/11 12:26 PM, Narayan Aras wrote: > > > Then I volunteered to collect the stakeholders requirements. > > The 23 roles were identified on this very mail list. > > I have seen mentions of these "23 roles" many times, but I have not seen > a list where they are described in detail. It looks like they have been > developed without even asking the SC members - or the group of the > founders - if this was the right approach. The whole work was in accordance with SC's decision. (see the links provided by Michael and others.) Can I help it if the MC does not read the mail list? BTW I have consistently maintained that mail lists are not suitable to capture such matters. There are easy solutions available. But SC is not interested. So SC has to blame itself for (a) not reading the mail list. and (b) not installing proper tools. > I am not a web site expert, but I am a member of the SC and in addition > I am the one coordinating marketing (you might complain about this, but > I got the trust of the founders based on seven years of activity inside > the OOo community). In order to approve an approach, you have to "sell" > it before even starting to work at it. Well, note that the mail lists cannot distinguish between "approved" tasks, "unautorized" tasks and "new proposals". Further, within an approved project, you cannot control each and every aspect that is proposed. This is an inherent weakness of mail list. If SC wants to control each minutest step, the only solution is to launch a formal project. Further, that project has to be broken up into tasks and sub-tasks (This is called "WBS"= Work Breakdown Structure) In other words, the SC has to maintain various approved projects, each with a detailed structure. Only then we can talk about whether any step is approved or not. Otherwise Sc can NOT keep track of which mails are within scope and which are extraneous. Even with this, SC can NOT prevent members from making new proposals. That is at the root of all trouble: 1. SC does not make/approve/drive projects with WBS. 2. SC misses the ongoing progress on approved/unautorized/new proposals. 3. Then SC wakes up one fine day and starts questioning the discussions and starts reversing the things. Either lead, be lead or get out of the way! Sleeping at the helm is not a viable option. > When I have entered the OOo community I told the members about my > experience (at the time, 23 years in IT marketing, as an executive VP of > a very large corporation and then as a consultant, plus 12 years as a > professor in Italy and the US - summer courses - where I have also > obtained three master degrees - all summa cum laude - in communications > (marketing and media relations) and journalism, which in general can be > considered as adequate credentials for an OOo marketing contact), but I > was asked to start working at translating some documents (which I did > translate as it was a very easy task). > > When Davide Dozza, the Italian OOo maintainer, saw the quality of the > translations, then I was allowed to start working in "real" marketing. I > had to "sell" myself, although I had very good credentials. > > I do not mind about my background (other long time members of the OOo > community can confirm they have never heard about it until today) as I > do like to be respected for what I do and not for what I have studied. > Communities have their non written rules, and there is some learning > curve (as in any other activity). Look, pedigree is useful in a dog show, not here. I think we should focus on merit of an idea, not WHO proposed it. In any case, most volunteers are not vying to become SC-members. At least those people should be excused for not advertising their lineage. > I am very interested in understanding: > > 1. Why you decided to create "roles" (it might be a silly question, but > when you deal with people different from you I have learned that there > are not silly questions) @the word "roles" No this is a good question, and I am sure everyone else on the SC knows the answer already, because they are from software development community (you are the only outsider! :) ) The original word I used was "stakeholder" which means anyone who has an interest in the product. This term goes beyond the "users". But later someone suggested that a given team can act as multiple types of stakeholders. So I changed the term to "role" to avoid confusion. The idea is that any person/team ca
RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi Charles, > > Else we would have left OOo because of a "dictatorial" behavior of > > Oracle, to get that behavior from the SC. > > (Out of the frying pan into the fire?) > I don't see it that way. It's perhaps misleading to call a dictatorial > behavior anything that does not suit your vision. The Drupal site was NOT our vision. It was based on an earlier decision by the SC itself. What has changed from the last decision to warrant a complete turn around? And regarding the "dictatorial" behavior, consider your sentences- 1. Who the hell are you anyway? 2. What part of that don't you understand? They are not exactly the shining examples of the customary European politeness. Imperious at best, dictatorial at worst. > Besides, Free and > Open Source Software is not exactly democratic. I can't really seem to > understand this notion that Free Software = I do whatever I want. That > only applies to code, and yet, with limits. Again, we were working according to SC's past decisions, not our own. So what's wrong in questing that sudden change of mind? > Simply, we have a website a team. It seems some people are not happy > with that so they will complain about anything that does not fit what > they would have hoped. It is unavoidable, but it is equally useless to > try to pressure contributors (and the SC) into decisions that are > opposite to what's already been decided. But surely we can question arbitrary (=dictatorial) decisions, and expect a POLITE answer? -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Charles, > > Logically, I haven't seen any discussion at the mail list that can lead to > > this conclusion. > > Oh there were discussions on several mailing lists about that. > And so were the discussions about the official status of the "Drupal" site as a long-term solution. Also, we identified the 23 roles right here, and also discussed the next steps to be taken for them. > > It should be circulated well in advance in the agenda and discussed > > in the mail beforehand, right? > > The agenda was posted well beforehand, and it was discussed over and > over again: WE WORK ON SILVERSTRIPE. WE DON'T WORK ON DRUPAL > What part of that don't you understand? Look, I posted two specific posts to understand SC's position on Drupal site. And I can mention now that it was a difficult task to get a simple "yes" or "no" answer. Only after getting satisfied did I volunteer. Then I volunteered to collect the stakeholders requirements. The 23 roles were identified on this very mail list. I do not understand how a position on the Drupal site can be reversed without a reason. As mentioned above, work was being planned, apparently with SC's blessings. We did see a difficulty ahead in getting the stakeholder's responses. But we always thought we are helping SC by striving even harder. > > As I mentioned in other mail, irrespective of the CMS used, the > > central idea was to create a second website that meets the strategic > > needs of the LibO ecosystem (in particular, the 23 roles). That > > second site is named "Drupal" just for convenience. > > > > > So when did the SC reverse its decision on this? > > What's the new approach to achieve the same (or better) outcome? > > Sorry? 23 roles about what? Who the hell are you anyway? What's this > idea to create a "second website that meets the strategic needs of the > LibO ecosystem"? We don't even know about that! Then why don't you read the mails posted right here?? Others from the SC did know about this, and didn't object then. Granted that in any community an apex body has to take the calls, and we have to honor them. But surely it cannot be so haphazard? Anyhow, it would be pointless to discuss this any more, I guess. Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: RE : RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Dear Charles, > Subject: RE : RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed > opportunities > From: charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org > To: website@libreoffice.org > > Dear Narayan, > > I would advise you read the minutes of the latest steerinh committee. > > Thanks, > > Charles. I did read the minutes, thanks to the link provided by Michael. I am not clear how a "statement" from SC made a way in the minutes. That's not healthy. Logically, I haven't seen any discussion at the mail list that can lead to this conclusion. It should be circulated well in advance in the agenda and discussed in the mail beforehand, right? The "statement" from SC reads like a commandment; to be followed by the faithful. Are we reduced (already) to a cult where the high priests decide everything? Why can't we behave like an open community? As I mentioned in other mail, irrespective of the CMS used, the central idea was to create a second website that meets the strategic needs of the LibO ecosystem (in particular, the 23 roles). That second site is named "Drupal" just for convenience. So when did the SC reverse its decision on this? What's the new approach to achieve the same (or better) outcome? The Drupal initiative does not hinder any of the current activities. Neither does it divert any of the volunteers away. So what's the problem? Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi Michael, > The development site will remain online at > www.libreofficeaustralia.com however it is likely that I will make the > site read only until we determine the path forward for this > development. > So... The question is, where to now for the Drupal development? I think the main problem is, our proposals have been only verbose. At present, the Drupal website does not present a unique advantage over the SilverStrip site. That's why we should develop the site in its full glory (as discussed with Christoph earlier). Once people see the merit of what we are talking about, I am sure we will find support. In any case, you are not relying upon MC's approval or sponsorship, right? So let us devote our full energy on the Drupal site, integrate all modules and only then resurface. Let's take up this challenge! -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?
Hi Michael and Christoph, > Charles, > The work on the Drupal development has halted as per the Steering Committee > statement. > There seems to be a disconnect between what the community/mailing list > groups want and what the Steering Committee is willing to support. > > From my discussions with the individuals involved with the Drupal > development there seems to be a consensus that until the Steering > Committee allows the individual community groups some autonomy to make > their own decisions and avoids overruling the groups it is unlikely > that the development will continue. The vast majority of the website > team has been supporting and contributing to this development as it is > seen as the 'way forward' but the SC and some founding members have > made it clear that this development will not continue. > > Personally I would like to see 'website team lead(s)' elected within > the website team, by the website team and decisions made at a > community level upheld without the SC stepping in. > If you or others wish to see this development continue, I would > suggest that you rally one or more of the SC members to overturn the > decisions made at the most recent meeting and allow autonomy within > the functional teams. I am truly lost in this maze. So far, we had made good progress, as follows: We identified 23 roles in the LibO ecosystem. The idea was to create an integrated workflow that caters to their needs all. A given team can assume multiple roles. Some roles may be re-assigned later. The website was supposed to have a workflow that allows all roles to work collaboratively. It was also supposed to help any contributor in taking up any role of his choice. The website was also going to integrate internet-based tools for the entire SDLC. In this, we were going to consult the people who are currently playing one or more of the 23 roles. AFAIK, the current "SilverStripe" website is not being designed with these goals at all. That is why we were talking about developing another website with strategically planned AI. Why is that goal ditched all of a sudden? And what on earth is going on?? Note that the "second" website has nothing to do with what CMS we should use. Just put aside the perennial arguments about SilverStripe and Drupal for a moment. Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Taxonomically arranged metamodel on web, to evolve strategic directions for the LibO community
Oops! Forgot to describe how to make it work: 1. Every quarter, the SC conducts a review of the entire model, and decides what actions to be taken. Since the concept maps/argument maps would already explore all pros and cons, the conclusion becomes self-evident. 2. In case of sensitive issues, SC can conduct a poll to verify the public mood. Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Taxonomically arranged metamodel on web, to evolve strategic directions for the LibO community
Hi all, While brainstorming about the Drupal website, I went through the past discussion at the mail list. I was struck by the fact that several ideas (similar/contrasting) are repeated several times by different people. The ideas are scattered in multiple posts under unrelated headings. For example, one post is extremely remarkable: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/msg01908.html Although it starts with the title "Extensions List suggestion", it goes on to expound the design philosophy for the website. This just goes to show how precious thoughts are getting lost in that black hole of a mail list. What we need is a website section that captures such ideas and collates them. In other words, a meta-model for the community. With such modeling, we can consciously change the very nature of our community, website and product. It should also be designed so that all ideas converge on a collective decision, and don't remain soap-box speeches. Imagine a website section, which has- 1. A navigational bar at left, which contains taxonomically arranged tree of all relevant topics 2. Each node of the tree has a wiki page to capture the thoughts. 3. Each page can be linked to a concept map (or an argument map) to settle conflicts. 4. Each page has "See also" section, so that interdependencies (if any) can be highlighted. This would be a "live" section, forever changing to respond to new ideas, new needs and new challenges. Especially, the tree (similar to the folder tree we see in Windows Explorer) would keep evolving. How about it? Regards, -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?
Hi Michael, In general, I full hare your views. > Your average end user will likely never search through mailing list threads, > even if they > contain exactly the information they are looking for. Exactly! > A well presented forum running from a dedicated forum system such as > vBulletin or phpBB > provides the end user with interface familiarity and branding which > builds trust in the brand and community. A BB is much more user-friendly than a mail-list. The following features do not exist in a mail list at all: 1. Conduct precise searches (with search parameters). 2. Split the domain into hierarchical forums, which prevents a mixup of issues. This in turn avoids repeat discussion of the same topic endlessly. 3. It establishes credentials of any user so that a casual visitor instantly knows how much to trust him. (is he a SC member or any other office-holder? How many posts are to his credit?) 4. We can check out a particular user by looking at his posts (genuine helper or trouble-maker?) On the other hand, please check if the selected tool has the facility to read/respond the posts while offline, and then do a rapid sync operation when the internet is available. > As I understand it, Silverstripe is a long way behind all the major > CMS systems in terms of 3rd party integration, but looking through the > forums I have seen that there are a few people who have hacked > Silverstripe in order to allow some basic functionality: > http://www.silverstripe.org/archive/show/2593 > > If we did provide a user forum, which I believe we should, using a > dedicated forum system will provide far more functionality and > usability, as well as regular security updates than we could ever hope > to code and maintain ourselves without drawing on resources that could > be used for development of LibreOffice. And THAT in turn means we should be using a readymade plugin for Drupal, which will ensure availability of regular updates and well-tested security, as compared to home-grown hacks. Even if the solution is solid today, the same resources may not be available in future; or may lose interest in maintaining this project. > What do others think? Is the forum support option important for trust > building and familiarity? What system would we use? Since vBulletin is commercial, we should opt for phpBB as Drupal plugin. While I think the forum should be established, I am against setting it up for SilverStripe as well. The reason is simple: It will not be possible to migrate the threads from SilverStripe to Drupal. We should not waste efforts on two fronts. I believe Drupal website should start functioning NOW on production-grade servers in some functional areas which do not need to be closely integrated with other functional areas. For example, BB does not need to be linked to any other area, where as all production-related areas are interrelated). Specifically, we need to think whether any hyperlinks will break later due to migration. -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] RE: [libreoffice-web site] Requirement co llection for Drupal website
Hi Christoph! Abstraction at this stage actually will prevent us from thinking about specific functions. (think of them as "duties" or "roles" within a specific team, for convenience). Regardless of how we group them later, these are all essential functions. Therefore we must think of each function separately: * What are its "deliverables" (Success criteria) * How it works (basic process) * Which other stakeholder(s) are involved in the process (interdependency) * What tools were used in the past (we have to offer the same/equivalent/better tools) Later on we can assign them to any team. This will allow us to create a workflow. That workflow will decide how each module is to be designed. When multiple functions are handled by the same team, we will have to integrate them in one place. Imagine that each team has its own daily landing page. All their functions are neatly summarized there (a dashboard, perhaps). Each team can start any of their "duties" from here, and find all tools that satisfy their workflow. For each team, all assigned workflows start from this landing page. Note that we will also have to capture this "meta-model" and present it for all newcomers. Something like- http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Building_Guide Imagine a visitor who wants to know how we work before joining. We can make a flowchart to explain the process and provide hotspots on it. Clicking on any hotspot will take the visitor directly to the concerned team's welcome page. From there, he can look around and get enrolled. Once the visitor defines his profile (in terms of pre-defined roles), the website can present customized screens. > > 04. Project managers > > What kind of Project Managers do you have in mind? Here is my idea of a PM in a collaborative social setup: He takes care of specific modules and coordinate further amongst coders. * Accept targets derived from the roadmap requirements (Coming from the Release Management team) * Planning to meet the target in coordination with other coders. * Triage of features and bugs as applicable to the modules in his care * Tracking the progress with an online Gantt chart system (e.g. http://openproj.org/, http://www.project-open.com/) These PMs will need support framework from the website: * The website should provide a vacancy matrix where coders with specific skills are wanted for specific jobs. * Coders in turn get credit points for doing work in any group (like "Karma" in Launchpad). Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] RE: [libreoffice-web site] Re: [libreoffi ce-website] Requirem ent collection for D rupal website
Hi stefan! Thanks. I did miss many stakeholders! :) > > The stakeholders are as follows (please add if I have missed out any-): > > > > 01. Steering Committee > > 02. Marketing team/Evangelists > > 03. Usability Team > > 04. Project managers > > 05. QA team > > 06. Release Management team > > 07. Configuration Management team > > 08. Architects/designers > > 09..Coders > > 10. Testers > > 11. Product-support (bug-tracker) team > > 12. Authors of built-in Help system > > 13. Authors of User's Manual > > 14. Authors of Programmer's Manual > > 15. Authors of commercial books > > 16. Commercial service providers > > 17. Nonprofit service providers > 18. Nonprofit and commercial education providers > 19. Certification team > 20. User support team > 21. Language groups > 22. Local groups Is that last item (#22) Product i18n/l10n group? If not, we need to add them to the list. What about languages in website/Help/Documents? Are these separate stakeholders, or covered already in the list above? BTW we forgot the most important person in the LibO ecosystem! As they say "and the last but not the least (drumrolls)"... 23. The LibO-user A doubt: Should we consider the user types separately? (Students, Home user. SoHo user and corporate user) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Requirement collecti on for Drupal websit e
[I am posting the following message again, as it got garbled the first time. Sorry for the inconvenience!] Hi! As a result of inputs from Sophie and Christoph, it is clear now that the Drupal site would be definitely used. and it will be given more time to fully address the needs of all stakeholders in the LibO ecosystem. We all know that many contributors already have their own favorite tools. The Drupal site would have to offer the same or equivalent/compatible tools. It may also offer tools that are so much superior that the contributors would not resist a changeover. That brings us to the topic of "How to collect stakeholder needs systematically". The final design of the Drupal website will heavily depend on what every group wants. I understand from Michael that this need-collection (and collation) is not attempted yet. I propose to contribute in this area. The stakeholders are as follows (please add if I have missed out any-): 01. Steering Committee 02. Marketing team/Evangelists 03. Usability Team 04. Project managers 05. QA team 06. Release Management team 07. Configuration Management team 08. Architects/designers 09..Coders 10. Testers 11. Product-support (bug-tracker) team 12. Authors of built-in Help system 13. Authors of User's Manual 14. Authors of Programmer's Manual 15. Authors of commercial books 16. Commercial service providers Several functional areas overlap, and therefore the same team may handle those related areas. For example- Configuration Management and Release Management (or Project Management and Release Management). Marketing and Usability (or Design and Usability). Marketing team will have to speak for the needs of commercial book authors and service-providers. Those who are busy with v3.3 can join after the release. ** To start with, we should identify the leads for these teams. That will make coordination easier. Next, we need a platform to collect the needs of each group (including favorite tools). IMHO Drupal site itself would be the best platform to host these pages. The third step would be to explore possible solutions that meet those needs. This would be the hardest step, because there are a lot of choices out there for each task. *** I hope Michael will provide tools that allows online brainstorming and advocacy. Mail lists will NOT be a good platform to discuss this issue further. We need at least a wiki page (or, better a separate forum) Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Requirement collection for Drupal website
Hi! As a result of inputs from Sophie and Christoph, it is clear now that the Drupal site would be definitely used, and it will be given more time to fully address the needs of all stakeholders in the LibO ecosystem. We all know that many contributors already have their own favorite tools. The Drupal site would have to offer the same or equivalent/compatible tools. It may also offer tools that are so much superior that the contributors would not resist a changeover. That brings us to the topic of "How to collect stakeholder needs systematically". The final design of the Drupal website will heavily depend on what every group wants. I understand from Michael that this need-collection (and collation) is not attempted yet. I propose to contribute in this area. The stakeholders are as follows (please add if I have missed out any-): Steering Committee Marketing team/EvangelistsUsability TeamProject managersQA teamRelease Management teamConfiguration Management team Architects/designersCodersTestersProduct-support (bug-tracker) teamAuthors of built-in Help systemAuthors of User's Manual Authors of Programmer's Manual Authors of commercial books Commercial service providers Several functional areas overlap, and therefore the same team may handle those related areas. Some examples: Config Management and Release Management (or Project Management and Release Management). Marketing and Usability (or Design and Usability). Marketing team will have to speak for the needs of commercial book authors and service-providers. Those who are busy with v3.3 can join after the release. ** To start with, we should identify the leads for these teams. That will make coordination easier. Next, we need a platform to collect the needs of each group (including favorite tools). IMHO Drupal site itself would be the best platform to host these pages. The third step would be to explore possible solutions that meet those needs. This would be the hardest step, because there are a lot of choices out there for each task. *** I hope Michael will provide tools that allows online brainstorming and advocacy. Mail lists will NOT be a good platform to discuss this issue further. We need at least a wiki page (or, better a separate forum) Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] What's the official policy about the LibO website: Drupal or no Drupal?
> Le 15/12/2010 06:20, Narayan Aras a écrit : > > Hi Sophie, > >> [...] > >> we have a lot of legacy data, so this is very important to take them in > >> consideration. This is an important knowledge base. > > Well, I hope Michael is aware of this data and its old format. > > If the idea is to make is available through Drupal, then this would be an > > early goal for Drupal team. > > Hmm, I think you are missing something : it is not sure that admins of > existing users forums (eg. > http://user.services.openoffice.org/fr/forum/index.php) will want to > leave OpenOffice.org infrastructure. These forums are intended to > provide assistance to users of each office suite "based" on OOo : at > this moment OOo, OOO/StarOffice, NeoOffice and LibreOffice. I am sure > they want to keep their freedom to manage their forums as they want. Well, here are some considerations: 1. Experienced users who provide help to newbies may not leave OOo forums (They may spend some of their time at LibO forums, though). 2. Many of the problems found in LibO would be common across all variants. So a LibO user should search at the OOo forum first to see if it is solved for any other variant. However, as time passes, LibO code would grow independently, and most of those problems would not apply. In other words, the OOo forums would be useful for LibO users in the beginning. After a few months, LibO forums can run on their own. Given this situation, LibO support team has three options: 1. Do NOT start a separate forum. Redirect users to the existing forums at OOo. 2. Copy the whole data (for all variants), because many of the problems apply to LibO today. (BTW we should be able to "deprecate" issues that no longer exist in the current LibO version.) 3. Live with a fragmented knowledge base and start a new forum anyway. -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] What's the official policy about the LibO website: Drupal or no Drupal?
Hi Sophie, > > Of course, I am not suggesting that users should be forced to use a > > tool that does not fit their needs. > > a small difference here, it's not users but contributors, just a small > difference I used the word "user" to mean readers and contributors. :) > > Why don't we try out a small pilot project and get the early user > > feedback, and see what happens? :) > > again, it's not users but contributors, still different but why not, let > see who will duplicate the efforts and resources. Michael, it boils down to your explaining how this will work. * How easy it is to migrate old data. (A small demo will help) * "Old vs new" demo videos to convince how the new tool is better (I can help here). > > A major factor in favor of trying new technologies is, we don't have > > old legacy data; so there are no worries about losing data because of > > non-compatibility. > > we have a lot of legacy data, so this is very important to take them in > consideration. This is an important knowledge base. Well, I hope Michael is aware of this data and its old format. If the idea is to make is available through Drupal, then this would be an early goal for Drupal team. > > Note that LibO itself has a major paradigm shift vis-a-vis OOo: 1. It > > will have a new design paradigm (feature vs content) 2. it will have > > new interfaces > > I don't understand what you're saying here, what is this new design and > new interfaces? Could you give some link to that? > > > > So why is it that we want a paradigm shift in LibO design; but not > > for the help community? > > still I don't understand OK from the blogs etc, this is what I understood: LibO team exited from Oracle to follow their vision of how OOo should have been developed. One of the goals was Content-based development (against feature-based development). The Go-OO talked about prohibitive politics at Sun (not Oracle, mind). They specifically mentioned that some features/bugfixes were deliberately avoided at Sun. It seems all their patches are included in LibO now (features+bugfixes). Further, Go-OO announced closing Go-OO to continue with LibO. To me, all this means that the LibO team will do something different from what Sun/Oracle were doing. It is not just a power struggle or clash of egos. (correct me if I am wrong). So, we ARE talking about breaking away from the old philosophy that was prevalent for 10-20 years. If so, why not consider new ways of working also? > > A case in point is this thread itself. > > > > It started when I wanted to know if Drupal is going to be adopted. I > > never got my answer. > > I give one and ask some questions, may be you don't read it or do not > want to answer. And seems I'm still an SC member ;-) DUH!! one of the MANY problems in mail lists is that we never know if we are talking to royalty. :) In a forum, your designation would have told me you are SC member. I will have to go back and search for your answer. :( > > But we have since then covered a lot of other inter-related ideas. > > > > Now a mail chain is the least efficient tool for such conceptual > > discussion. * We cannot reach any conclusion. * A latecomer cannot > > read it and understand what is happening. > > Sorry, I can't easily access web content, that is why I'm stuck with > mailing lists. See, this is the second power outage until I begin this > mail, funny isn't it :) I don't see how power outage will make a difference. What's the difference between a mail list and a forum page? Both are delivered one page at a time! Both pages are supposed to be light (so as to not take time in loading). > > A concept map (or an argument map) are the best tool for conceptual > > discussion. Both can be collaboratively plotted in Drupal. > > I'm use to conceptual map on papers, sorry not easy to put on Drupal I > fear ;-), but yes I work quite often with them, useful tool, that's true. Michael, here is your chance to prove that Drupal can provide easy concept charts! ;) > So using mailing list is not an old habit, I would love to use other > funny things like forum and online tools, it's just the only way to > communicate and participate I have :-) sorry to bother you with poor but > expensive connexion consideration, it seems however we are the major > part of the world in this situation. Again, I don't think forum are any different from a mail list in poor connectivity situation. BTW, I am glad that a highly active SC member is concerned about poor connectivity. This indeed is a huge problem around the world. But you are focusing on loading of HTML pages. A far more serious problem we face is in downloading LibO itself. Why does LibO continue to offer only full downloads; and not updates? That will help people with poor connectivity tremendously! Oracle Open Office offers update. Their marketing brochure actually boasts of large savings based on this single difference. So why does LibO not talk about
RE: [libreoffice-website] What's the official policy about the LibO website: Drupal or no Drupal?
Hi Sophie, What is wrong in using a new powerful tool that gives many more facilities compared to the old tool? Of course, I am not suggesting that users should be forced to use a tool that does not fit their needs. Why don't we try out a small pilot project and get the early user feedback, and see what happens? :) A major factor in favor of trying new technologies is, we don't have old legacy data; so there are no worries about losing data because of non-compatibility. Note that LibO itself has a major paradigm shift vis-a-vis OOo: 1. It will have a new design paradigm (feature vs content) 2. it will have new interfaces So why is it that we want a paradigm shift in LibO design; but not for the help community? A case in point is this thread itself. It started when I wanted to know if Drupal is going to be adopted. I never got my answer. But we have since then covered a lot of other inter-related ideas. Now a mail chain is the least efficient tool for such conceptual discussion. * We cannot reach any conclusion. * A latecomer cannot read it and understand what is happening. A concept map (or an argument map) are the best tool for conceptual discussion. Both can be collaboratively plotted in Drupal. People can argue for and against any idea, and it actually reaches a conclusion. It is used by NASA for taking mission-critical decisions. So why should we still use mail lists for the same purpose? Just because we have that old habit? -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] What's the official policy about the LibO website: Drupal or no Drupal?
Hi Michael, > > Why does it not have blogs, wiki and forum? (they get filled up by > > visitors; not content-writers.) > > A forum and heavily integrated communication and support system is > coming with Drupal which will support communication through mailing > list, forum and XML. I am not sure how we would migrate items from a > Silverstripe forum to a Drupal forum as they have to be attributed to > a user. > Please be patient, Drupal is only a couple of months off. I was talking of the SilverStripe version, which was supposed to fill the void. There is no significant activity there. These are formation days for LibO community; so I expect more content (policies, directions) coming from the leadership. The website structure should focus on recruiting people in different streams, and guide them to proper page. Each landing page for a specific type of stakeholder (coder, documenter, etc.) should brief the new visitor thoroughly. It should explain the workflow, and provide links to all resources, tools and repositories. Also, SilverStripe forums would have been a welcome relief from these darned mail lists. > Unless there is a discussion and decision otherwise I suggest that we > all align our efforts with the SC decision and work towards improving > the content on Silverstripe and the further consulting with project > teams leading to the final Drupal site. Well, if the Drpal site was say a year down the road, I'd say SilverStripe was worth a shot. But the fact is, the SilverStripe project is almost telescoping into Drupal project. Even if contents are added within next 10 days, the useful life will be 2 months max. Then there's the headache of migrating everything to Drupal! I wonder if this is really worth the effort. So, rather than adding features in SilverStripe, it may be better to populate it with static contents. Examples are: >From the SC: FAQ, Policy statements, roadmap, sticky threads at each forum for >newcomers. >From the marketing team: Description about LibO (how it is different from >OOo), branding inputs Come to think of it, these contents can be placed in the Drupal site directly. It seems to be mature enough structurally. New sections can be added in parallel. I volunteer to be a moderator at Drupal. -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] What's the official policy about the LibO website: Drupal or no Drupal?
Hi Christian, > That there has not been much content on the site surely is not the > fault of silverstripe. I'm very disappointed about this as well, but > the reason is that almost nobody did provide content to put up on the site. Frankly I don't understand why the site should have almost no content (this has nothing to do with CMS). Why does it not have blogs, wiki and forum? (they get filled up by visitors; not content-writers.) Why does it not have marketing pages? (there are not left to casual contributors.) In fact, the SC should have used the sticky threads in forum to convey roadmaps and progress-reports to visitors. Note that each type of stakeholders (coders, documenters, website-makers, LibO-users) should have their own forums. Therefore SC can post separately customized messages for each target segment. The website also can have static pages such as FAQ created by SC. That would remove any confusion in people's mind, and better attract the contributors. I haven't seen anything worse than mail lists (especially for latecomers). Despite wading through hundreds of posts, all they get is various conflicting opinions (not official decisions). One such example is whether we will migrate to Drupal at all. Everyone has an opinion. But what's the official stand? Such far-reaching issues can be explained through FAQ or sticky posts at forum. Then the authors and contributors would know whether spending effort after Drupal is worthwhile. THIS IS TERRIBLE. > > Can SilverStripe or Drupal meet these needs better? > > I have not seen any study put on line. > > Has been done in the past. Executive summary "Silverstripe: Does it > out of the box, drupal has so many modules, so surely it can do the > same and more and has a bigger fanbase/more users worldwide" However > the drupal demonstration sites sucked badly at the time, thus SC did > vote for going live with Silverstripe. BTW by pure chance I came across this page: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Evaluation_of_CMS_Platforms#Preconditions_to_go_live_with_one_of_the_CMS IMHO the feature-comparison is readily available at CMS matrix website (www.cmsmatrix.org). So this exercise was not necessary. What we need is a collection of all stakeholders' needs. I posted a sample a few posts ago. The current IA does not cater to many of those needs. (This has nothing to do with CMS, but the IA design per se.) -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] test.libreoffice.org
Hi! I am not sure if your invitation for ideas was for logo/branding or for the page. But assuming that it is about everything, then the tag line is terrible. Both logo and the tag line are supposed to be about the same thing. So the next question: Is this logo for LibO (the product), or TDF (the organization behind it)? Since the logo is placed with download links, I assume it is for the product. Then why does the tagline say "The Document Foundation"? It is supposed to say something more about the product. (e.g. It can say "The Liberated Office" or something similar.) -Narayan > Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 15:08:41 +0100 > From: o...@sophia-louise.de > To: website@libreoffice.org > Subject: [libreoffice-website] test.libreoffice.org > > Hi, > maybe you noticed the changings in the webdesign of test.libreoffice.org. > There was a short private discussion about it. Now we want to take this > discussion to all. > The most of the changes happened because of our logo and the branding > rules (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding). > It is not the last solution and so feel free to tell us your ideas (and > about your helping). > > -- > Grüße > k-j > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] What's the official policy about the LibO website: Drupal or no Drupal?
> If you want to see the current state of the Silverstripe site, look at > http://www.test.libreoffice.org. I did, and was surprised by lack of progress there. Since it the "rapid-deployment" system, it should have all contents by now. It should have been hosting the interactive content too. (wiki, forum, etc.) If it has all this, the lack of elaborate structure can be overlooked. But it does NOT have the content (both static and interactive). So if we compare only the empty shells, then Drupal site is more ready! The navigation system at Drupal site is much more evolved. So which is the "scaffolding" site, and which is the "permanent" one? And coming back to my original topic, how is this to be decided? -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] What's the official policy about the LibO website: Drupal or no Drupal?
Hi David, I cannot read between the lines here. That resolution is pretty ambivalent (votes-wise SilverStripe wins, long-term wisdom-wise Drupal wins.) I am looking for the short verdict: Even if Drupal is the site for the future, what's the roadmap? It is not necessary for the volunteers to second-guess the leadership's strategic decisions. And David, I think someone already told you that the people wearing the volunteer caps in a social group may not be lacking in strategic skills. It's just that they are willing to let others take the lead. But they are equally capable of strategic thinking. There is a fundamental difference between the Drupal site and SilverStripe site. Michael has done a careful branding exercise with his site. LibO brand takes center stage. ODF as a brand is NOT promoted there. On the other hand, SilverStripe site is more about "us" (but yet the ODF is not promoted as a brand - It is about personalities). The LibreOffice comes in the picture only in the third menu. This is not about the CMS selection: The very approach is diametrically opposite. It is difficult to believe that both sites are the result of the same product-brief. One of them is clearly not meeting the customer's intrinsic needs. So how are we supposed to compare these two? ** @Why should we plan the roadmap: The more people work on SilverStripe site, the lesser the need for Drupal site. The longer it runs, the more the headaches in migrating the data to Drupal. As I said before, any future-proof CMS is fine provided someone has done careful feature-comparison. Especially for the features that are required by the different stakeholders. I have already shared some requirement-analysis for the authors. The other stakeholders are: * Users of LibO (download LibO, extensions, templates, documentation; see FAQ, get solutions at forums) * Marketing team (enunciate roadmap, compare LibO with rival products, share demos/walkthroughs, ) * Steering team (roadmap, technology trends, etc.) * coders, testers (code versioning, beta-testing, bug-tracking) * Testers, users, bug-handlers (run issue-tracker, release management) * Architects/designers Although specialized tools are also to be considered, the CMS has to integrate well with the other tools. Only that will ensure a smooth workflow, with all required inputs provided to each stakeholder in just the right format. Can SilverStripe or Drupal meet these needs better? I have not seen any study put on line. Regards, -Narayan > From: comme...@traduction.biz > Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 13:53:59 +0800 > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] What's the official policy about the LibO > website: Drupal or no Drupal? > To: website@libreoffice.org > > Hi Narayan, :-) > > On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 13:39, Narayan Aras wrote: > > Recently David has pointed out that the LibreOffice leadership has not > > decided anything about the Drupal site. > > (He cites Steering Committee MoMs that there are no plans to migrate to a > > Drupal site). > > I think you'd better read what I said more carefully. ;-) That is not > exactly what I wrote at all. Read again, please. [1] > > [1] > http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/documentation-at-oooauthors-tp2030217p2063519.html > > David Nelson > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] What's the official policy about the LibO website: Drupal or no Drupal?
Hi all, Recently David has pointed out that the LibreOffice leadership has not decided anything about the Drupal site. (He cites Steering Committee MoMs that there are no plans to migrate to a Drupal site). Michael on the other hand believes that a Silverstripe site is only temporary (except the wiki part), and Drupal site is the future. This is highly confusing state of affairs: Nearly half of the volunteers' effort and time will be wasted, because one of the two projects will be closed in near future. I think we should have a better clarity from the leadership on this issue. Let us put all our effort on only one project. BTW it is OK if the leadership declares a healthy competition between the two and see who comes out on top. I will be rooting for both. Let the better idea/implementation win. So what is it going to be? Thanks, -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Improvement suggestions for the beta website (www.libreofficeaustralia.org)
Hi Michael, > Firstly could I start by saying that the beta website is not yet ready > for people to start contributing to it, so can we use the existing > infrastructure to discuss and comment on development. This includes > the mailing list and the wiki. Actually I did give a thought about it: My list is only a transitory TODO list for a site that is well understood to be WIP. The suggestions have no permanent value, in fact. They are to be used as scaffolding for a building: Once the building is erected, just dismantle the scaffolding; and start using the building for its permanent use. Similarly, once the site is ready, just throw away the temporary contents. When the product is ready, a clean installation would be done on different servers, isn't it? That's why I posted them on your site. > I have moved your comments over to the wiki and deleted them off the > development site as we wish to make it clear that the site hosted at > libreofficeaustralia.org is under HEAVY development and nowhere near > ready for real content or public eyes. > I have a feeling that you think we are further along the development > path than is actually the case. The theme is not yet developed and > there is no real content on the site, just placeholders for the site > structure. A lot of effort is going into workflows and systems in the > back end of the site to ensure the interactive parts of the site work > including the development and approval process for designs, > documentation, marketing tools, etc. Well, unless you have posted the entire scheme (sitemap) somewhere, how would I know about it? I went through the "Requirements" pages, but there are no marketing/docs requirements listed. So anything that I expect but don't find in the website seems to be a missing feature. So it is better if we have a sitemap (site structure+navigation) and a ToDo list (finer aspects/features). That will also make it clear whether all stakeholder needs are met. At the wiki, the status for Drupal site reads: "Testing site online and development has begun" That's why I went ahead and started my review. Early feedback will only help development. I have also sent a private email to you that I will be reviewing your site using usability checklists. So I think I have not done anything out of line. > Please don't take this response as being rude as I have simply tried > to highlight the areas which have already been suggested and are under > development or being tackled by another team. Sure! No offense taken! (I hope this goodwill is reciprocal). As I have wrote earlier, I will play multiple roles. I have played reviewer role. Now I will contribute contents too. Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Improvement suggestions for the beta website (www.libreofficeaustralia.org)
Hi all, I have posted some thirty suggestions about how to improve the beta website set up by Michael (http://www.libreofficeaustralia.org). The comments are meant to be accepted only after a lively discussion, of course! :) Please do NOT respond to this mail: Use the forum here instead- http://www.libreofficeaustralia.org/forums/support/getting-started (You will need to register first I guess...) Thanks, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
