Re: [whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
On Tue, 4 Feb 2014, Cameron McCormack wrote: Ian Hickson wrote: I'm all for handling it in one place. What precisely do you want the behaviour to be? (Consider HTML-in-SVG and SVG-in-HTML also -- the first svg:title element may come after the firsthtml:title element, and vice versa. Also consider when one or the other is primary but the relevant element is absent.) OK, how about: if the document element is an html:html, we choose the first html:title in document order; if the document element is an svg:svg, we choose the first child svg:title of the document element; otherwise, null. This still is going to produce incorrect results for things like: !DOCTYPE html svg foreignObject titleblah/title /foreignObject /svg but arguably you shouldn't be using title in there anyway. It doesn't seem useful to hit that element. It's not the (SVG) document title, after all. I ended up going with: - if it's an SVG document, use the first title child of the root element - if it's an HTML document, use the first title element in tree order (that's what it used to be) For setting it uses the same element, unless there isn't one, in which case: - if it's an SVG document, append an SVG title to the root element - if it's an HTML document, append a title to the head Hopefully that's compatible enough. Let me know if you need something different. On Mon, 3 Feb 2014, Jonas Sicking wrote: An even simpler solution would be to say we choose the first html:title or svg:title in document order. That has the nice property that we align SVG and HTML more. This seems to not quite match the SVG semantics, unfortunately. On Wed, 5 Feb 2014, Simon Pieters wrote: Is there a situation in which it is conforming to use html:title outside the head in a document where the root is html:html? In math:annotation-xml? You can certainly imagine a compound document format containing entire HTML subdocuments, html, head, title, and all. I'm not sure that's possible with just SVG and HTML currently though. (Maybe MathML, indeed.) -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
On Tue, 1 Apr 2014, Jonas Sicking wrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 11:55 AM, Ian Hickson i...@hixie.ch wrote: On Mon, 3 Feb 2014, Jonas Sicking wrote: An even simpler solution would be to say we choose the first html:title or svg:title in document order. That has the nice property that we align SVG and HTML more. This seems to not quite match the SVG semantics, unfortunately. Does it break existing content? If not, why not ask the SVG spec to be changed? The thread was started by one of the SVG spec editors after all. Dirk and heycam's replies to your original e-mail here suggest that this is not really viable. I mean, it'd be like changing document.title in HTML to point to the first title= attribute in the document if it came before the first title. Anyway, what the spec ended up saying is in some ways even simpler, since it only looks one level deep for SVG rather than doing a deep tree search. (Is this the kind of change that you would have liked pre-flighted? I can revert the change and put out an announcement if you like. I'm not yet sure I exactly understand what kinds of changes fall into this category.) -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 18:15:16 +0100, Ian Hickson i...@hixie.ch wrote: On Tue, 4 Feb 2014, Anne van Kesteren wrote: Given that this does not define a html:title in html:head it's non-conforming anyway so that seems fine. (I'm assuming we're using HTML parsing rules of today.) The spec actually allows title to be ommitted in a number of cases, e.g. srcdoc documents, and we may extend this in the future (e.g. documents intended only for use in iframes). But the given snippet is still non-conforming because html:title is not allowed in svg:foreignObject per http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-map-element.html#svg-0 Is there a situation in which it is conforming to use html:title outside the head in a document where the root is html:html? In math:annotation-xml? -- Simon Pieters Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
On 05/02/2014 13:24, Simon Pieters wrote: Is there a situation in which it is conforming to use html:title outside the head in a document where the root is html:html? In math:annotation-xml? My reading is yes, and validator.nu at least agrees this is valid !DOCTYPE html html headtitlek/title /head body aaa math semantics mix/mi annotation-xml encoding=text/htmltitle??/title/annotation-xml /semantics /math /body /html but unlike the svg case MathML doesn't have any special requirements here, and I don't think it would cause problems if any convenient (for you) behaviour was defined, or this was declared invalid (and for example the valid content of annotation-xml encoding=text/html was the same as that of html body) David The Numerical Algorithms Group Ltd is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 1249803. The registered office is: Wilkinson House, Jordan Hill Road, Oxford OX2 8DR, United Kingdom. This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The service is powered by MessageLabs.
Re: [whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 15:11:32 +0100, David Carlisle dav...@nag.co.uk wrote: On 05/02/2014 13:24, Simon Pieters wrote: Is there a situation in which it is conforming to use html:title outside the head in a document where the root is html:html? In math:annotation-xml? My reading is yes, and validator.nu at least agrees this is valid !DOCTYPE html html headtitlek/title /head body aaa math semantics mix/mi annotation-xml encoding=text/htmltitle??/title/annotation-xml /semantics /math /body /html but unlike the svg case MathML doesn't have any special requirements here, and I don't think it would cause problems if any convenient (for you) behaviour was defined, or this was declared invalid (and for example the valid content of annotation-xml encoding=text/html was the same as that of html body) Yeah, I think that the content model for annotation-xml with encoding=text/html or encoding=application/xhtml+xml should be flow content. -- Simon Pieters Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 12:25 AM, Cameron McCormack c...@mcc.id.au wrote: OK, how about: if the document element is an html:html, we choose the first html:title in document order; if the document element is an svg:svg, we choose the first child svg:title of the document element; otherwise, null. This seems good. This still is going to produce incorrect results for things like: !DOCTYPE html svg foreignObject titleblah/title /foreignObject /svg Given that this does not define a html:title in html:head it's non-conforming anyway so that seems fine. (I'm assuming we're using HTML parsing rules of today.) -- http://annevankesteren.nl/
Re: [whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
On Tue, 4 Feb 2014, Anne van Kesteren wrote: Given that this does not define a html:title in html:head it's non-conforming anyway so that seems fine. (I'm assuming we're using HTML parsing rules of today.) The spec actually allows title to be ommitted in a number of cases, e.g. srcdoc documents, and we may extend this in the future (e.g. documents intended only for use in iframes). -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
On Feb 3, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Cameron McCormack c...@mcc.id.au wrote: Jonas Sicking wrote: An even simpler solution would be to say we choose the first html:title orsvg:title in document order. That has the nice property that we align SVG and HTML more. Although as Dirk pointed out, SVG distinguishes title elements that are children of the root element vs children of other elements. The title that is a child of the root element gives the title of the entire element, while a title child of another element in the document describes only that element (like title= does in HTML). You should compare screenreader output on IE and Firefox for Windows. SVG does differ titles in terms of hierarchy. The first title/desc element in the first hierarchy level after svg root is taken as title/description of the “document”. Document in the meaning that the outermost SVG root creates an SVG document. Any hierarchy after the first is the title/description of the group. Here two examples with inline description: svg titleThis is the title of the document/title /svg svg g titleThis is the title of the whole group with all decadents. Descendants can have there own title as well as a more detailed description of a sub tree. The SVG document has no title./title /g /svg The svg element within HTML content is by default used as image in most browsers. The role of the SVG document can be changed though. For some more information see blog post “Using ARIA to enhance SVG accessibility” which tests the accessibility in browsers. [1] I think we should not change the way accessibility is handled in SVG for the last 1.5 decades. ARIA on the other hand should behave the same as for HTML content (which it basically does). I am not aware of tests or researches that take different languages into account though. Anyway, I do not see how it would hurt if SVG defines accessibility for SVG content. We have some accessibility experts in the WG who add valuable input to the topic already. Greetings, Dirk [1] http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2013/12/using-aria-enhance-svg-accessibility/
Re: [whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
On Sat, 1 Feb 2014, Cameron McCormack wrote: Currently, HTML defines Document.title on SVG documents to defer to whatever the SVG specification defines for SVGDocument.title. The SVGDocument interface has gone away, so this will need to be updated. From some basic testing, it looks like SVG needs the same behaviour as HTML -- first title element in the document, plus the white space collapsing behaviour. Do you want to just handle that all in HTML? I'm not sure there's much value to duplicating either the searching for the title element or the white space collapsing behaviour in SVG itself. I'm all for handling it in one place. What precisely do you want the behaviour to be? (Consider HTML-in-SVG and SVG-in-HTML also -- the first svg:title element may come after the first html:title element, and vice versa. Also consider when one or the other is primary but the relevant element is absent.) -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
Ian Hickson wrote: I'm all for handling it in one place. What precisely do you want the behaviour to be? (Consider HTML-in-SVG and SVG-in-HTML also -- the first svg:title element may come after the firsthtml:title element, and vice versa. Also consider when one or the other is primary but the relevant element is absent.) OK, how about: if the document element is an html:html, we choose the first html:title in document order; if the document element is an svg:svg, we choose the first child svg:title of the document element; otherwise, null. This still is going to produce incorrect results for things like: !DOCTYPE html svg foreignObject titleblah/title /foreignObject /svg but arguably you shouldn't be using title in there anyway.
Re: [whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 4:25 PM, Cameron McCormack c...@mcc.id.au wrote: Ian Hickson wrote: I'm all for handling it in one place. What precisely do you want the behaviour to be? (Consider HTML-in-SVG and SVG-in-HTML also -- the first svg:title element may come after the firsthtml:title element, and vice versa. Also consider when one or the other is primary but the relevant element is absent.) OK, how about: if the document element is an html:html, we choose the first html:title in document order; if the document element is an svg:svg, we choose the first child svg:title of the document element; otherwise, null. An even simpler solution would be to say we choose the first html:title or svg:title in document order. That has the nice property that we align SVG and HTML more. / Jonas
Re: [whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
Jonas Sicking wrote: An even simpler solution would be to say we choose the first html:title orsvg:title in document order. That has the nice property that we align SVG and HTML more. Although as Dirk pointed out, SVG distinguishes title elements that are children of the root element vs children of other elements. The title that is a child of the root element gives the title of the entire element, while a title child of another element in the document describes only that element (like title= does in HTML).
[whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
Currently, HTML defines Document.title on SVG documents to defer to whatever the SVG specification defines for SVGDocument.title. The SVGDocument interface has gone away, so this will need to be updated. From some basic testing, it looks like SVG needs the same behaviour as HTML -- first title element in the document, plus the white space collapsing behaviour. Do you want to just handle that all in HTML? I'm not sure there's much value to duplicating either the searching for the title element or the white space collapsing behaviour in SVG itself.
Re: [whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
On 1/02/2014 9:01 pm, Cameron McCormack wrote: Do you want to just handle that all in HTML? I'm not sure there's much value to duplicating either the searching for the title element or the white space collapsing behaviour in SVG itself. Oh, and for the setter, it looks like implementations don't do anything when assigning to document.title in SVG documents. (Chrome does something funny where it remembers what you assign to document.title, but it doesn't affect what's in the title element.) I don't have a strong opinion on whether we should make the setter do something useful or nothing at all. If we do, any newly created title element should be appended to the document element.
Re: [whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
On Feb 1, 2014, at 9:03 PM, Cameron McCormack c...@mcc.id.au wrote: Currently, HTML defines Document.title on SVG documents to defer to whatever the SVG specification defines for SVGDocument.title. The SVGDocument interface has gone away, so this will need to be updated. From some basic testing, it looks like SVG needs the same behaviour as HTML -- first title element in the document, plus the white space collapsing behaviour. Could you be more specific about that? It is not just the first title element in the document, but the first direct child of the element root. A title nested in a group or graphical element has a different meaning and shall not be used as title. If there is a nested title element but no direct title child of the SVG root, then the document has no title. This distinction is important for accessibility. Do you want to just handle that all in HTML? I'm not sure there's much value to duplicating either the searching for the title element or the white space collapsing behaviour in SVG itself.
Re: [whatwg] Document.title for SVG documents
On 1/02/2014 10:01 pm, Dirk Schulze wrote: Could you be more specific about that? It is not just the first title element in the document, but the first direct child of the element root. That is what the spec says but that is not what implementations do. A title nested in a group or graphical element has a different meaning and shall not be used as title. If there is a nested title element but no direct title child of the SVG root, then the document has no title. This distinction is important for accessibility. Sure. I'd be happy with keeping the special SVG behaviour here too. Ian, if you still would prefer a hook in the SVG spec for you to refer to, rather than including this behaviour -- first title child of the document element -- then I can define for example SVG title element that represents that element.
