Re: [Wiki-research-l] Editor surveys on race/ethnicity/religion

[Su-Laine Brodsky]

Thanks everyone who’s responded with such thoughtful comments. I will look 
further at the "The Pipeline of Online Participation Inequalities: The Case of 
Wikipedia Editing” paper that Isaac referenced, which seems interesting.

I think the plans that Rebecca Maung described for the 2021 Community Insights 
survey are bang on. If we want to help answer the question of whether 
particular races or ethnicities are under-represented, it makes sense to gather 
the data in a form that can be compared to the general population in a country. 
E.g. I’d like to have data that say, “X percent of U.S.-based Wikipedia editors 
identify as Black, whereas according to the latest census, X percent of the 
U.S. general population identifies as Black.” This is more interesting than 
data that say, “X percent of all Wikipedia editors in the world identify as 
Black”. 

Another thought is that diversity within each Wikimedia project, not just 
diversity across all projects, is something people value - especially in the 
big projects like the English Wikipedia. So it would be helpful to see 
racial/ethnic identity, country of residence, and gender percentages for each 
project.

And another thought is that while some people will be offended if you ask them 
about their race, other people will be offended if you put out a survey that’s 
intended to measure diversity and doesn’t ask anyone about their race.  

Cheers,
Su-Laine





> On Sep 21, 2020, at 1:39 PM, L.Gelauff  wrote:
> 
> Ah, you're assuming some automated country-detection, rather than
> self-identify. I see.
> 
> Lodewijk
> 
> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 12:59 PM Stuart A. Yeates  wrote:
> 
>> Everyone from China and Saudi Arabia (two countries which
>> systematically block wikipedia) are likely to be taking technical
>> measures to disguise their country.
>> 
>> That's a lot of people, but I'm not sure how many editors that is.
>> 
>> cheers
>> stuart
>> 
>> --
>> ...let us be heard from red core to black sky
>> 
>> On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 at 07:01, L.Gelauff  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just thinking out loud.. are we looking for actual race/ethnicity/etc
>> data,
>>> or is it rather that we're looking for whether someone belongs to an
>> under
>>> represented group in their specific situation? If it is the latter, there
>>> may be ways to phrase the question without asking for actual
>> demographics.
>>> 
>>> Stuart; do you have any indication for how large a portion that group
>> is? I
>>> am aware of public pages being potentially disguised as such, but wasn't
>>> familiar with stories about this happening in a survey context (although
>> it
>>> does not sound implausible).
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> Lodewijk
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:39 AM Stuart A. Yeates 
>> wrote:
>>> 
 Another point not touched on by other commenters is that even if ideal
 race / ethnicity question(s were developed for every country in the
 world, users from some countries commonly disguise their country due
 to censorship in that country, so we there would be a whole class of
 systematic errors where we asked users the wrong country's
 question(s).
 
 cheers
 stuart
 --
 ...let us be heard from red core to black sky
 
 On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 at 05:00, Isaac Johnson 
>> wrote:
> 
> Adding another point from Rebecca Maung who helps run the annual
 Community
> Insights surveys >> 
 but
> isn't currently on this listserv so couldn't respond directly:
> 
> This year's Community Insights survey (reporting scheduled for early
 2021)
> is the first that will ask Wikimedia contributors about race and
> ethnicity-- but only in certain geographies. Due to all the excellent
> points made in this thread, we have never asked a race or ethnicity
> question, but this year we decided to start asking locally relevant
> questions where we could. This year only editors in the US and
>> Britain
 will
> see a question about race or ethnicity, tailored to their local
>> contexts.
> In the coming years, we will expand the countries and geographies
>> that
 see
> a question like this, prioritizing places where there is a larger
>> editor
> presence and local laws and norms allow such questions. We have not
>> yet
> discussed asking about religion in the Community Insights survey.
> 
> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 9:20 AM Isaac Johnson 
 wrote:
> 
>> As pointed out by others, the highly contextualized nature of
>> religion,
>> race, and ethnicity between countries makes it very difficult to
 impossible
>> to craft questions that are not overly reductive but still somewhat
>> universal. Despite this challenge, understanding diversity in a way
 that
>> captures these aspects is obviously quite important as they often
 figure
>> very strongly into power and representation within history, media,

Re: [Wiki-research-l] [Wikimedia Research Showcase] September 23, 2020: Knowledge Gaps

[Janna Layton]

Hi all,

Just a reminder that the next Research Showcase will be live-streamed on
Wednesday, September 23, at 9:30 AM PDT/16:30 UTC, and will be on the theme
of knowledge gaps. The Research Team will give an overview on the first
draft of the taxonomy of knowledge gaps in Wikimedia projects. The taxonomy
is a first milestone towards developing a framework to understand and
measure knowledge gaps with the goal of capturing the multi-dimensional
aspect of knowledge gaps and inform long-term decision making. The first
draft of the taxonomy is now published and we seek your feedback to improve
it.

YouTube stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJDsKPsz64o

As usual, you can join the conversation on IRC at #wikimedia-research. You
can also watch our past research showcases here:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Research/Showcase

This month's presentation:

A first draft of the knowledge gaps taxonomy for Wikimedia projects

By the Wikimedia Foundation Research Team 

In response to Wikimedia Movement’s 2030 strategic direction
,
the Research
team  at the Wikimedia Foundation
is developing a framework to understand and measure knowledge gaps. The
goal is to capture the multi-dimensional aspect of knowledge gaps and
inform long-term decision making. The first milestone was to develop a
taxonomy of knowledge gaps which offers a grouping and descriptions of the
different Wikimedia knowledge gaps. The first draft of the taxonomy is now
published  and we seek your feedback to
improve it. In this talk, we will give an overview over the first draft of
the taxonomy of knowledge gaps in Wikimedia projects. Following that, we
will host an extended Q in which we would like to get your feedback and
discuss with you the taxonomy and knowledge gaps more generally.

   -

   More information:
   https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Knowledge_Gaps_Index/Taxonomy


On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 3:27 PM Janna Layton  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
> The next Research Showcase will be live-streamed on Wednesday, September
> 23, at 9:30 AM PDT/16:30 UTC, and will be on the theme of knowledge gaps.
> Miriam Redi will give an overview on the first draft of the taxonomy of
> knowledge gaps in Wikimedia projects. The taxonomy is a first milestone
> towards developing a framework to understand and measure knowledge gaps
> with the goal of capturing the multi-dimensional aspect of knowledge gaps
> and inform long-term decision making.
>
> YouTube stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJDsKPsz64o
>
> As usual, you can join the conversation on IRC at #wikimedia-research. You
> can also watch our past research showcases here:
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Research/Showcase
>
> This month's presentation:
>
> A first draft of the knowledge gaps taxonomy for Wikimedia projects
>
> By the Wikimedia Foundation Research Team
> 
>
> In response to Wikimedia Movement’s 2030 strategic direction
> ,
> the Research team  at the
> Wikimedia Foundation is developing a framework to understand and measure
> knowledge gaps. The goal is to capture the multi-dimensional aspect of
> knowledge gaps and inform long-term decision making. The first milestone
> was to develop a taxonomy of knowledge gaps which offers a grouping and
> descriptions of the different Wikimedia knowledge gaps. The first draft of
> the taxonomy is now published  and we
> seek your feedback to improve it. In this talk, we will give an overview
> over the first draft of the taxonomy of knowledge gaps in Wikimedia
> projects. Following that, we will host an extended Q in which we would
> like to get your feedback and discuss with you the taxonomy and knowledge
> gaps more generally.
>
>- More information:
>https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Knowledge_Gaps_Index/Taxonomy
>
>
> --
> Janna Layton (she/her)
> Administrative Associate - Product & Technology
> Wikimedia Foundation 
>


-- 
Janna Layton (she/her)
Administrative Associate - Product & Technology
Wikimedia Foundation 
___
Wiki-research-l mailing list
Wiki-research-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l

Re: [Wiki-research-l] Editor surveys on race/ethnicity/religion

[L.Gelauff]

Ah, you're assuming some automated country-detection, rather than
self-identify. I see.

Lodewijk

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 12:59 PM Stuart A. Yeates  wrote:

> Everyone from China and Saudi Arabia (two countries which
> systematically block wikipedia) are likely to be taking technical
> measures to disguise their country.
>
> That's a lot of people, but I'm not sure how many editors that is.
>
> cheers
> stuart
>
> --
> ...let us be heard from red core to black sky
>
> On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 at 07:01, L.Gelauff  wrote:
> >
> > Just thinking out loud.. are we looking for actual race/ethnicity/etc
> data,
> > or is it rather that we're looking for whether someone belongs to an
> under
> > represented group in their specific situation? If it is the latter, there
> > may be ways to phrase the question without asking for actual
> demographics.
> >
> > Stuart; do you have any indication for how large a portion that group
> is? I
> > am aware of public pages being potentially disguised as such, but wasn't
> > familiar with stories about this happening in a survey context (although
> it
> > does not sound implausible).
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Lodewijk
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:39 AM Stuart A. Yeates 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Another point not touched on by other commenters is that even if ideal
> > > race / ethnicity question(s were developed for every country in the
> > > world, users from some countries commonly disguise their country due
> > > to censorship in that country, so we there would be a whole class of
> > > systematic errors where we asked users the wrong country's
> > > question(s).
> > >
> > > cheers
> > > stuart
> > > --
> > > ...let us be heard from red core to black sky
> > >
> > > On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 at 05:00, Isaac Johnson 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Adding another point from Rebecca Maung who helps run the annual
> > > Community
> > > > Insights surveys  >
> > > but
> > > > isn't currently on this listserv so couldn't respond directly:
> > > >
> > > > This year's Community Insights survey (reporting scheduled for early
> > > 2021)
> > > > is the first that will ask Wikimedia contributors about race and
> > > > ethnicity-- but only in certain geographies. Due to all the excellent
> > > > points made in this thread, we have never asked a race or ethnicity
> > > > question, but this year we decided to start asking locally relevant
> > > > questions where we could. This year only editors in the US and
> Britain
> > > will
> > > > see a question about race or ethnicity, tailored to their local
> contexts.
> > > > In the coming years, we will expand the countries and geographies
> that
> > > see
> > > > a question like this, prioritizing places where there is a larger
> editor
> > > > presence and local laws and norms allow such questions. We have not
> yet
> > > > discussed asking about religion in the Community Insights survey.
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 9:20 AM Isaac Johnson 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > As pointed out by others, the highly contextualized nature of
> religion,
> > > > > race, and ethnicity between countries makes it very difficult to
> > > impossible
> > > > > to craft questions that are not overly reductive but still somewhat
> > > > > universal. Despite this challenge, understanding diversity in a way
> > > that
> > > > > captures these aspects is obviously quite important as they often
> > > figure
> > > > > very strongly into power and representation within history, media,
> etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > In general, if you're looking for large-scale surveys of editors,
> the
> > > Meta
> > > > > category (Category:Editor surveys
> > > > > ) is
> actually
> > > > > quite complete (same for readers
> > > > > ). In
> > > > > particular, I wrote what little I could find about these topics
> into
> > > this
> > > > > section of our recently published knowledge gaps taxonomy:
> > > > > https://arxiv.org/pdf/2008.12314.pdf#subsubsection.3.1.7
> > > > >
> > > > > The April 2011 editor survey took the approach of just asking
> people
> > > how
> > > > > they felt they were different from others in the community -- this
> > > specific
> > > > > question is not one that I would advocate today (asking people to
> > > identify
> > > > > all the ways in which they may be "outsiders" is not particularly
> > > > > welcoming) but this is also probably the style of approach (asking
> > > people
> > > > > how well they feel represented within Wikipedia content or editor
> > > > > community) that you'd have to take to get information on ethnicity
> /
> > > race /
> > > > > religion without writing country-specific questions:
> > > > >
> > >
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Editor_Survey_Report_-_April_2011.pdf#page=65
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 6:12 AM Stuart A. Yeates <
> 

Re: [Wiki-research-l] Editor surveys on race/ethnicity/religion

[Stuart A. Yeates]

Everyone from China and Saudi Arabia (two countries which
systematically block wikipedia) are likely to be taking technical
measures to disguise their country.

That's a lot of people, but I'm not sure how many editors that is.

cheers
stuart

--
...let us be heard from red core to black sky

On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 at 07:01, L.Gelauff  wrote:
>
> Just thinking out loud.. are we looking for actual race/ethnicity/etc data,
> or is it rather that we're looking for whether someone belongs to an under
> represented group in their specific situation? If it is the latter, there
> may be ways to phrase the question without asking for actual demographics.
>
> Stuart; do you have any indication for how large a portion that group is? I
> am aware of public pages being potentially disguised as such, but wasn't
> familiar with stories about this happening in a survey context (although it
> does not sound implausible).
>
> Best,
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:39 AM Stuart A. Yeates  wrote:
>
> > Another point not touched on by other commenters is that even if ideal
> > race / ethnicity question(s were developed for every country in the
> > world, users from some countries commonly disguise their country due
> > to censorship in that country, so we there would be a whole class of
> > systematic errors where we asked users the wrong country's
> > question(s).
> >
> > cheers
> > stuart
> > --
> > ...let us be heard from red core to black sky
> >
> > On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 at 05:00, Isaac Johnson  wrote:
> > >
> > > Adding another point from Rebecca Maung who helps run the annual
> > Community
> > > Insights surveys 
> > but
> > > isn't currently on this listserv so couldn't respond directly:
> > >
> > > This year's Community Insights survey (reporting scheduled for early
> > 2021)
> > > is the first that will ask Wikimedia contributors about race and
> > > ethnicity-- but only in certain geographies. Due to all the excellent
> > > points made in this thread, we have never asked a race or ethnicity
> > > question, but this year we decided to start asking locally relevant
> > > questions where we could. This year only editors in the US and Britain
> > will
> > > see a question about race or ethnicity, tailored to their local contexts.
> > > In the coming years, we will expand the countries and geographies that
> > see
> > > a question like this, prioritizing places where there is a larger editor
> > > presence and local laws and norms allow such questions. We have not yet
> > > discussed asking about religion in the Community Insights survey.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 9:20 AM Isaac Johnson 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > As pointed out by others, the highly contextualized nature of religion,
> > > > race, and ethnicity between countries makes it very difficult to
> > impossible
> > > > to craft questions that are not overly reductive but still somewhat
> > > > universal. Despite this challenge, understanding diversity in a way
> > that
> > > > captures these aspects is obviously quite important as they often
> > figure
> > > > very strongly into power and representation within history, media, etc.
> > > >
> > > > In general, if you're looking for large-scale surveys of editors, the
> > Meta
> > > > category (Category:Editor surveys
> > > > ) is actually
> > > > quite complete (same for readers
> > > > ). In
> > > > particular, I wrote what little I could find about these topics into
> > this
> > > > section of our recently published knowledge gaps taxonomy:
> > > > https://arxiv.org/pdf/2008.12314.pdf#subsubsection.3.1.7
> > > >
> > > > The April 2011 editor survey took the approach of just asking people
> > how
> > > > they felt they were different from others in the community -- this
> > specific
> > > > question is not one that I would advocate today (asking people to
> > identify
> > > > all the ways in which they may be "outsiders" is not particularly
> > > > welcoming) but this is also probably the style of approach (asking
> > people
> > > > how well they feel represented within Wikipedia content or editor
> > > > community) that you'd have to take to get information on ethnicity /
> > race /
> > > > religion without writing country-specific questions:
> > > >
> > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Editor_Survey_Report_-_April_2011.pdf#page=65
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 6:12 AM Stuart A. Yeates 
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> The ethnicity / race question is an incredibly hard question to
> > > >> compose in an internationalised way.
> > > >>
> > > >> Pretty much every country in the world uses different terms and there
> > > >> are some very confusing cases where the same term is used in different
> > > >> countries to mean very different things (e,g, "Asian" in UK English vs
> > > >> New Zealand English). This 

Re: [Wiki-research-l] Editor surveys on race/ethnicity/religion

[L.Gelauff]

Just thinking out loud.. are we looking for actual race/ethnicity/etc data,
or is it rather that we're looking for whether someone belongs to an under
represented group in their specific situation? If it is the latter, there
may be ways to phrase the question without asking for actual demographics.

Stuart; do you have any indication for how large a portion that group is? I
am aware of public pages being potentially disguised as such, but wasn't
familiar with stories about this happening in a survey context (although it
does not sound implausible).

Best,

Lodewijk

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:39 AM Stuart A. Yeates  wrote:

> Another point not touched on by other commenters is that even if ideal
> race / ethnicity question(s were developed for every country in the
> world, users from some countries commonly disguise their country due
> to censorship in that country, so we there would be a whole class of
> systematic errors where we asked users the wrong country's
> question(s).
>
> cheers
> stuart
> --
> ...let us be heard from red core to black sky
>
> On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 at 05:00, Isaac Johnson  wrote:
> >
> > Adding another point from Rebecca Maung who helps run the annual
> Community
> > Insights surveys 
> but
> > isn't currently on this listserv so couldn't respond directly:
> >
> > This year's Community Insights survey (reporting scheduled for early
> 2021)
> > is the first that will ask Wikimedia contributors about race and
> > ethnicity-- but only in certain geographies. Due to all the excellent
> > points made in this thread, we have never asked a race or ethnicity
> > question, but this year we decided to start asking locally relevant
> > questions where we could. This year only editors in the US and Britain
> will
> > see a question about race or ethnicity, tailored to their local contexts.
> > In the coming years, we will expand the countries and geographies that
> see
> > a question like this, prioritizing places where there is a larger editor
> > presence and local laws and norms allow such questions. We have not yet
> > discussed asking about religion in the Community Insights survey.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 9:20 AM Isaac Johnson 
> wrote:
> >
> > > As pointed out by others, the highly contextualized nature of religion,
> > > race, and ethnicity between countries makes it very difficult to
> impossible
> > > to craft questions that are not overly reductive but still somewhat
> > > universal. Despite this challenge, understanding diversity in a way
> that
> > > captures these aspects is obviously quite important as they often
> figure
> > > very strongly into power and representation within history, media, etc.
> > >
> > > In general, if you're looking for large-scale surveys of editors, the
> Meta
> > > category (Category:Editor surveys
> > > ) is actually
> > > quite complete (same for readers
> > > ). In
> > > particular, I wrote what little I could find about these topics into
> this
> > > section of our recently published knowledge gaps taxonomy:
> > > https://arxiv.org/pdf/2008.12314.pdf#subsubsection.3.1.7
> > >
> > > The April 2011 editor survey took the approach of just asking people
> how
> > > they felt they were different from others in the community -- this
> specific
> > > question is not one that I would advocate today (asking people to
> identify
> > > all the ways in which they may be "outsiders" is not particularly
> > > welcoming) but this is also probably the style of approach (asking
> people
> > > how well they feel represented within Wikipedia content or editor
> > > community) that you'd have to take to get information on ethnicity /
> race /
> > > religion without writing country-specific questions:
> > >
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Editor_Survey_Report_-_April_2011.pdf#page=65
> > >
> > > On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 6:12 AM Stuart A. Yeates 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> The ethnicity / race question is an incredibly hard question to
> > >> compose in an internationalised way.
> > >>
> > >> Pretty much every country in the world uses different terms and there
> > >> are some very confusing cases where the same term is used in different
> > >> countries to mean very different things (e,g, "Asian" in UK English vs
> > >> New Zealand English). This is derived from varying legal definitions
> > >> (for example blood quantum vs one-drop laws); the history of
> > >> colonisation and waves of immigration to the country; along with
> > >> cultural differences.
> > >>
> > >> cheers
> > >> stuart
> > >> --
> > >> ...let us be heard from red core to black sky
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 21:55, Federico Leva (Nemo) <
> nemow...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Su-Laine Brodsky, 21/09/20 08:19:
> > >> > > I’m wondering if any large-scale surveys have been done that ask
> 

Re: [Wiki-research-l] Editor surveys on race/ethnicity/religion

[Stuart A. Yeates]

Another point not touched on by other commenters is that even if ideal
race / ethnicity question(s were developed for every country in the
world, users from some countries commonly disguise their country due
to censorship in that country, so we there would be a whole class of
systematic errors where we asked users the wrong country's
question(s).

cheers
stuart
--
...let us be heard from red core to black sky

On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 at 05:00, Isaac Johnson  wrote:
>
> Adding another point from Rebecca Maung who helps run the annual Community
> Insights surveys  but
> isn't currently on this listserv so couldn't respond directly:
>
> This year's Community Insights survey (reporting scheduled for early 2021)
> is the first that will ask Wikimedia contributors about race and
> ethnicity-- but only in certain geographies. Due to all the excellent
> points made in this thread, we have never asked a race or ethnicity
> question, but this year we decided to start asking locally relevant
> questions where we could. This year only editors in the US and Britain will
> see a question about race or ethnicity, tailored to their local contexts.
> In the coming years, we will expand the countries and geographies that see
> a question like this, prioritizing places where there is a larger editor
> presence and local laws and norms allow such questions. We have not yet
> discussed asking about religion in the Community Insights survey.
>
> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 9:20 AM Isaac Johnson  wrote:
>
> > As pointed out by others, the highly contextualized nature of religion,
> > race, and ethnicity between countries makes it very difficult to impossible
> > to craft questions that are not overly reductive but still somewhat
> > universal. Despite this challenge, understanding diversity in a way that
> > captures these aspects is obviously quite important as they often figure
> > very strongly into power and representation within history, media, etc.
> >
> > In general, if you're looking for large-scale surveys of editors, the Meta
> > category (Category:Editor surveys
> > ) is actually
> > quite complete (same for readers
> > ). In
> > particular, I wrote what little I could find about these topics into this
> > section of our recently published knowledge gaps taxonomy:
> > https://arxiv.org/pdf/2008.12314.pdf#subsubsection.3.1.7
> >
> > The April 2011 editor survey took the approach of just asking people how
> > they felt they were different from others in the community -- this specific
> > question is not one that I would advocate today (asking people to identify
> > all the ways in which they may be "outsiders" is not particularly
> > welcoming) but this is also probably the style of approach (asking people
> > how well they feel represented within Wikipedia content or editor
> > community) that you'd have to take to get information on ethnicity / race /
> > religion without writing country-specific questions:
> > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Editor_Survey_Report_-_April_2011.pdf#page=65
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 6:12 AM Stuart A. Yeates 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> The ethnicity / race question is an incredibly hard question to
> >> compose in an internationalised way.
> >>
> >> Pretty much every country in the world uses different terms and there
> >> are some very confusing cases where the same term is used in different
> >> countries to mean very different things (e,g, "Asian" in UK English vs
> >> New Zealand English). This is derived from varying legal definitions
> >> (for example blood quantum vs one-drop laws); the history of
> >> colonisation and waves of immigration to the country; along with
> >> cultural differences.
> >>
> >> cheers
> >> stuart
> >> --
> >> ...let us be heard from red core to black sky
> >>
> >> On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 21:55, Federico Leva (Nemo) 
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Su-Laine Brodsky, 21/09/20 08:19:
> >> > > I’m wondering if any large-scale surveys have been done that ask
> >> Wikipedia editors about their race, ethnicity, or religion?
> >> >
> >> > What international standards exist to phrase such questions?
> >> > Denominations commonly used in surveys in one country may be considered
> >> > horrific or even illegal in others.
> >> >
> >> > I see OECD considers it a difficult problem too:
> >> >
> >> > 
> >> >
> >> > 76.  Current NSOs collection practices cluster around three broad
> >> > categories: 1) all OECD countries collect information on some diversity
> >> > proxies such as country of birth (36 OECD members); 2) a small majority,
> >> > mostly Eastern European countries, the United Kingdom and Ireland,
> >> > gather additional information on race and ethnicity (16 OECD members);
> >> > and 3) only a handful of countries in the Americas and Oceania collect
> >> > data on indigenous identity (6 

Re: [Wiki-research-l] Editor surveys on race/ethnicity/religion

[Isaac Johnson]

Adding another point from Rebecca Maung who helps run the annual Community
Insights surveys  but
isn't currently on this listserv so couldn't respond directly:

This year's Community Insights survey (reporting scheduled for early 2021)
is the first that will ask Wikimedia contributors about race and
ethnicity-- but only in certain geographies. Due to all the excellent
points made in this thread, we have never asked a race or ethnicity
question, but this year we decided to start asking locally relevant
questions where we could. This year only editors in the US and Britain will
see a question about race or ethnicity, tailored to their local contexts.
In the coming years, we will expand the countries and geographies that see
a question like this, prioritizing places where there is a larger editor
presence and local laws and norms allow such questions. We have not yet
discussed asking about religion in the Community Insights survey.

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 9:20 AM Isaac Johnson  wrote:

> As pointed out by others, the highly contextualized nature of religion,
> race, and ethnicity between countries makes it very difficult to impossible
> to craft questions that are not overly reductive but still somewhat
> universal. Despite this challenge, understanding diversity in a way that
> captures these aspects is obviously quite important as they often figure
> very strongly into power and representation within history, media, etc.
>
> In general, if you're looking for large-scale surveys of editors, the Meta
> category (Category:Editor surveys
> ) is actually
> quite complete (same for readers
> ). In
> particular, I wrote what little I could find about these topics into this
> section of our recently published knowledge gaps taxonomy:
> https://arxiv.org/pdf/2008.12314.pdf#subsubsection.3.1.7
>
> The April 2011 editor survey took the approach of just asking people how
> they felt they were different from others in the community -- this specific
> question is not one that I would advocate today (asking people to identify
> all the ways in which they may be "outsiders" is not particularly
> welcoming) but this is also probably the style of approach (asking people
> how well they feel represented within Wikipedia content or editor
> community) that you'd have to take to get information on ethnicity / race /
> religion without writing country-specific questions:
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Editor_Survey_Report_-_April_2011.pdf#page=65
>
> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 6:12 AM Stuart A. Yeates 
> wrote:
>
>> The ethnicity / race question is an incredibly hard question to
>> compose in an internationalised way.
>>
>> Pretty much every country in the world uses different terms and there
>> are some very confusing cases where the same term is used in different
>> countries to mean very different things (e,g, "Asian" in UK English vs
>> New Zealand English). This is derived from varying legal definitions
>> (for example blood quantum vs one-drop laws); the history of
>> colonisation and waves of immigration to the country; along with
>> cultural differences.
>>
>> cheers
>> stuart
>> --
>> ...let us be heard from red core to black sky
>>
>> On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 21:55, Federico Leva (Nemo) 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Su-Laine Brodsky, 21/09/20 08:19:
>> > > I’m wondering if any large-scale surveys have been done that ask
>> Wikipedia editors about their race, ethnicity, or religion?
>> >
>> > What international standards exist to phrase such questions?
>> > Denominations commonly used in surveys in one country may be considered
>> > horrific or even illegal in others.
>> >
>> > I see OECD considers it a difficult problem too:
>> >
>> > 
>> >
>> > 76.  Current NSOs collection practices cluster around three broad
>> > categories: 1) all OECD countries collect information on some diversity
>> > proxies such as country of birth (36 OECD members); 2) a small majority,
>> > mostly Eastern European countries, the United Kingdom and Ireland,
>> > gather additional information on race and ethnicity (16 OECD members);
>> > and 3) only a handful of countries in the Americas and Oceania collect
>> > data on indigenous identity (6 OECD members). Diversity statistics are
>> > collected from the perspective of either enumerating the size of the
>> > relevant populations (typically in the census) or of comparing
>> > well-being outcomes across different population groups.
>> >
>> > 77.  While privacy and human rights legislation sometimes prevents or
>> > discourages the routine collection of diversity data, the need to
>> > improve data availability and quality is being recognised in most
>> > countries. Many countries are piloting the addition of new ethnic
>> > response options to more accurately reflect the make-up of their
>> > societies (e.g. Ireland, 

Re: [Wiki-research-l] Editor surveys on race/ethnicity/religion

[Isaac Johnson]

As pointed out by others, the highly contextualized nature of religion,
race, and ethnicity between countries makes it very difficult to impossible
to craft questions that are not overly reductive but still somewhat
universal. Despite this challenge, understanding diversity in a way that
captures these aspects is obviously quite important as they often figure
very strongly into power and representation within history, media, etc.

In general, if you're looking for large-scale surveys of editors, the Meta
category (Category:Editor surveys
) is actually
quite complete (same for readers
). In particular,
I wrote what little I could find about these topics into this section of
our recently published knowledge gaps taxonomy:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2008.12314.pdf#subsubsection.3.1.7

The April 2011 editor survey took the approach of just asking people how
they felt they were different from others in the community -- this specific
question is not one that I would advocate today (asking people to identify
all the ways in which they may be "outsiders" is not particularly
welcoming) but this is also probably the style of approach (asking people
how well they feel represented within Wikipedia content or editor
community) that you'd have to take to get information on ethnicity / race /
religion without writing country-specific questions:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Editor_Survey_Report_-_April_2011.pdf#page=65

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 6:12 AM Stuart A. Yeates  wrote:

> The ethnicity / race question is an incredibly hard question to
> compose in an internationalised way.
>
> Pretty much every country in the world uses different terms and there
> are some very confusing cases where the same term is used in different
> countries to mean very different things (e,g, "Asian" in UK English vs
> New Zealand English). This is derived from varying legal definitions
> (for example blood quantum vs one-drop laws); the history of
> colonisation and waves of immigration to the country; along with
> cultural differences.
>
> cheers
> stuart
> --
> ...let us be heard from red core to black sky
>
> On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 21:55, Federico Leva (Nemo) 
> wrote:
> >
> > Su-Laine Brodsky, 21/09/20 08:19:
> > > I’m wondering if any large-scale surveys have been done that ask
> Wikipedia editors about their race, ethnicity, or religion?
> >
> > What international standards exist to phrase such questions?
> > Denominations commonly used in surveys in one country may be considered
> > horrific or even illegal in others.
> >
> > I see OECD considers it a difficult problem too:
> >
> > 
> >
> > 76.  Current NSOs collection practices cluster around three broad
> > categories: 1) all OECD countries collect information on some diversity
> > proxies such as country of birth (36 OECD members); 2) a small majority,
> > mostly Eastern European countries, the United Kingdom and Ireland,
> > gather additional information on race and ethnicity (16 OECD members);
> > and 3) only a handful of countries in the Americas and Oceania collect
> > data on indigenous identity (6 OECD members). Diversity statistics are
> > collected from the perspective of either enumerating the size of the
> > relevant populations (typically in the census) or of comparing
> > well-being outcomes across different population groups.
> >
> > 77.  While privacy and human rights legislation sometimes prevents or
> > discourages the routine collection of diversity data, the need to
> > improve data availability and quality is being recognised in most
> > countries. Many countries are piloting the addition of new ethnic
> > response options to more accurately reflect the make-up of their
> > societies (e.g. Ireland, the United States), while Belgium is
> > considering allowing collection of race and ethnicity data within the
> > restrictions imposed by the national legal framework. Within the
> > European Statistical System, the inclusion of more detailed migration
> > information is also being considered: The Framework Regulation for
> > Production of European Statistics on Persons and Households European
> > foresees the incorporation of questions on the country of birth of the
> > respondent’s parents in the Labour Force Surveys (from 2020), the
> > European Health Interview Survey, the European Union Statistics on
> > Income and Living Conditions, the Household Budget Surveys and the
> > Community surveys on ICT usage in households and by individuals. The
> > European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights is pursuing its Roma and
> > Travellers Survey to collect comparable data in six selected Member
> > States in 2018 (FRA, 2018[77]).
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> https://www.oecd.org/officialdocuments/publicdisplaydocumentpdf/?cote=SDD/DOC(2018)9=En
> >
> > Federico
> >
> > ___
> > Wiki-research-l mailing 

Re: [Wiki-research-l] Editor surveys on race/ethnicity/religion

[Stuart A. Yeates]

The ethnicity / race question is an incredibly hard question to
compose in an internationalised way.

Pretty much every country in the world uses different terms and there
are some very confusing cases where the same term is used in different
countries to mean very different things (e,g, "Asian" in UK English vs
New Zealand English). This is derived from varying legal definitions
(for example blood quantum vs one-drop laws); the history of
colonisation and waves of immigration to the country; along with
cultural differences.

cheers
stuart
--
...let us be heard from red core to black sky

On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 21:55, Federico Leva (Nemo)  wrote:
>
> Su-Laine Brodsky, 21/09/20 08:19:
> > I’m wondering if any large-scale surveys have been done that ask Wikipedia 
> > editors about their race, ethnicity, or religion?
>
> What international standards exist to phrase such questions?
> Denominations commonly used in surveys in one country may be considered
> horrific or even illegal in others.
>
> I see OECD considers it a difficult problem too:
>
> 
>
> 76.  Current NSOs collection practices cluster around three broad
> categories: 1) all OECD countries collect information on some diversity
> proxies such as country of birth (36 OECD members); 2) a small majority,
> mostly Eastern European countries, the United Kingdom and Ireland,
> gather additional information on race and ethnicity (16 OECD members);
> and 3) only a handful of countries in the Americas and Oceania collect
> data on indigenous identity (6 OECD members). Diversity statistics are
> collected from the perspective of either enumerating the size of the
> relevant populations (typically in the census) or of comparing
> well-being outcomes across different population groups.
>
> 77.  While privacy and human rights legislation sometimes prevents or
> discourages the routine collection of diversity data, the need to
> improve data availability and quality is being recognised in most
> countries. Many countries are piloting the addition of new ethnic
> response options to more accurately reflect the make-up of their
> societies (e.g. Ireland, the United States), while Belgium is
> considering allowing collection of race and ethnicity data within the
> restrictions imposed by the national legal framework. Within the
> European Statistical System, the inclusion of more detailed migration
> information is also being considered: The Framework Regulation for
> Production of European Statistics on Persons and Households European
> foresees the incorporation of questions on the country of birth of the
> respondent’s parents in the Labour Force Surveys (from 2020), the
> European Health Interview Survey, the European Union Statistics on
> Income and Living Conditions, the Household Budget Surveys and the
> Community surveys on ICT usage in households and by individuals. The
> European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights is pursuing its Roma and
> Travellers Survey to collect comparable data in six selected Member
> States in 2018 (FRA, 2018[77]).
>
> 
>
> https://www.oecd.org/officialdocuments/publicdisplaydocumentpdf/?cote=SDD/DOC(2018)9=En
>
> Federico
>
> ___
> Wiki-research-l mailing list
> Wiki-research-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l

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Re: [Wiki-research-l] Editor surveys on race/ethnicity/religion

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Su-Laine Brodsky, 21/09/20 08:19:
> I’m wondering if any large-scale surveys have been done that ask Wikipedia 
> editors about their race, ethnicity, or religion? 

What international standards exist to phrase such questions?
Denominations commonly used in surveys in one country may be considered
horrific or even illegal in others.

I see OECD considers it a difficult problem too:



76.  Current NSOs collection practices cluster around three broad
categories: 1) all OECD countries collect information on some diversity
proxies such as country of birth (36 OECD members); 2) a small majority,
mostly Eastern European countries, the United Kingdom and Ireland,
gather additional information on race and ethnicity (16 OECD members);
and 3) only a handful of countries in the Americas and Oceania collect
data on indigenous identity (6 OECD members). Diversity statistics are
collected from the perspective of either enumerating the size of the
relevant populations (typically in the census) or of comparing
well-being outcomes across different population groups.

77.  While privacy and human rights legislation sometimes prevents or
discourages the routine collection of diversity data, the need to
improve data availability and quality is being recognised in most
countries. Many countries are piloting the addition of new ethnic
response options to more accurately reflect the make-up of their
societies (e.g. Ireland, the United States), while Belgium is
considering allowing collection of race and ethnicity data within the
restrictions imposed by the national legal framework. Within the
European Statistical System, the inclusion of more detailed migration
information is also being considered: The Framework Regulation for
Production of European Statistics on Persons and Households European
foresees the incorporation of questions on the country of birth of the
respondent’s parents in the Labour Force Surveys (from 2020), the
European Health Interview Survey, the European Union Statistics on
Income and Living Conditions, the Household Budget Surveys and the
Community surveys on ICT usage in households and by individuals. The
European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights is pursuing its Roma and
Travellers Survey to collect comparable data in six selected Member
States in 2018 (FRA, 2018[77]).



https://www.oecd.org/officialdocuments/publicdisplaydocumentpdf/?cote=SDD/DOC(2018)9=En

Federico

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Re: [Wiki-research-l] Editor surveys on race/ethnicity/religion

[Ziko van Dijk]

Hello Su-Laine,

Interesting question!
One reason might be: researchers don't think that these questions are
important for their particular interest.
Or: if your sample is small then these items could help to identify the person.

Also, it depends on the general culture or demographics of your
country. In some countries it is normal that e.g. the government in a
census asks you these questions. In Germany, it would become a public
outcry if the government asked people about their "race". By the way,
there is now a discussion ongoing that Germany should erase the word
"race" from its constitution ("no discrimination because of race
[...]") as race does not exist.
I now had a problem writing about the anti harassment policies of the
WMF, because the word "race" appears there. I solved the problem by
putting "race" in quotation marks.

In Germany, pollsters stopped a long time ago asking voters for their
denomination. It turned out that the difference (protestant vs.
catholic) was no longer relevant. It seems to be relevant, though,
"how often do you attend church". Other denominations in Germany are
traditionally small, although islam is in the rise (ca. 4% if I
remember correctly).

It would be interesting to have research about what Wikipedia related
surveys actually ask about the participants. If I remember correctly,
in German speaking countries researchers ask about gender but hardly
ethnicity, religion or "race".

I would like to read what others think about, or whether there are
specific issues with Wikipedia related research. E.g., one might think
that race is more relevant for face-to-face-communication than in
online communication, although that would be a reduced view on the
issue.

Kind regards
Ziko























Am Mo., 21. Sept. 2020 um 07:19 Uhr schrieb Su-Laine Brodsky
:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I’m wondering if any large-scale surveys have been done that ask Wikipedia 
> editors about their race, ethnicity, or religion?
> Also, have any researchers considered asking these questions in editor 
> surveys, but chosen not to ask them for particular reasons?
>
> Best wishes,
> Su-Laine
>
> Su-Laine Brodsky
> Vancouver, BC
> ___
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> Wiki-research-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l

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