subject:"\[Wikidata\-bugs\] \[Maniphest\] \[Commented On\] T165648\: Add monolingual language codes nrf\-gg \(for Guernésiais\), nrf\-je \(for Jèrriais\)"

Esc3300 added a comment.
Thanks? I don't understand. Can you explain what the technical impact is? Which Wikidata function(s) would be impacted?TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165648EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Esc3300Cc: Lydia_Pintscher, Verdy_p, gerritbot, Amire80, Nikki, jhsoby, GerardM, Baba_Tabita, Aklapper, Esc3300, GoranSMilovanovic, Adik2382, Th3d3v1ls, Ramalepe, Liugev6, QZanden, Lewizho99, Maathavan, Izno, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

GerardM added a comment.
Hoi,
Because they are a subset of nrf.
Thanks,

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

Verdy_p added a comment.
Actually ISO 639 also references The Ethnologue entry that lists:
Andorra and France https://www.ethnologue.com/map/ADFR
Ireland and United Kingdom https://www.ethnologue.com/map/IEGB

The Normand variants on the continent are effectively those in region
Normandie, but there are historic Norman people also in Andorra and
elsewhere in the British isles.

For French variants mostly those in Normandie, there's a legacy (but
incorrect) assumption that it is a variant of French. It's true that it is
one of the Oil languages from which French was created ininitially in the
Val de Loire region, where the initial kingdom of France was located, then
later to Île de France when the kingdom was established in Paris (later in
Versailles): the language of the rulers were stil lthe Oil variant from the
Loire valley, but French was in fact normalized and became the official
language of the kingdom only after the creation of the French Academy, that
proposed to unify various oil languages in a new lingua franca, as well as
several Oc languages (Occitan, Catalan, Provençal). Old French is another
history, it was in fact not the result of this merge, but just the historic
vernacular Oil variant spoken in the Loire Valley, which was still distinct
from the Parisian Oil variant. The Parisian Oil variant survived for long
even after normative French was created (and it is still distinct from the
various modern "Parisian French" argots which are found in popular Paris
suburbs, made with more terms from foreign origins, notably from Berber and
Arabic, mixed with more terms from English, but also from other "Parisian
French" spoken by regional community in Paris, notably from some past
corporations occupying people from Southern France, notably from Auvergne:
this "Parisian French" is in fact of variant of Auvergnat, and more related
to Provençal and Oc languages).

Now in Andorra (and in surrounding areas in the French Pyrénées mountains),
that Norman variant is inherited from the former occupation of Southwestern
France by Englo-Normans, i.e. the British Crown hold by the Normans since
their invasion of Britain (and later Ireland). Some minor Norman dialects
can be found as well all around the Mediterranean sea, and up to the Baltic
sea when Normans were ruling the seas.: you can find extinct Norman
variants in Sicilia, Sardinia, and on the Italian peninsula, or in Malta
and Greece and some harbors in North Africa. The Norman troups ceased to
exist as such when Normans lost all their territories in France. But the
vernacular Norman has still persisted in France, and developed
independantly of the Channel Islands. English itself incorporates many
Norman terms, historically more than those borrowed later from French
(which appeared much later and is a real language only since the 19th
century, and became standard only after World War I when French people from
various regions were largely mixed together and used a lingua franca, and
enforced with the mandatory techning of "standard French" in schools since
Jules Ferry).

The regional Norman language is now being renewed in Normandy, but with no
state support (it is culturally supported only by regions in Normandie,
created serparately just after WW2, incorporated separately only in the
early 1980's, but reunified only in 2015). There's no doubt it is
completely related to the Norman languages in Jersey and Guernsey (which
also have cultural "embassies" in France, in Normandie, and with active
cultural cooperation with the two Normandie regions (merged into a single
one in 2015). There are "pan-Norman" cultural events that occur every year
alternatively in Jersey, Guernsey and in French Normandie (but there is
also some association with Norman cultural minorities in Northern Spain and
Italy). There's still an ongoing effort to create a dictionnary for Norman
in French Normandie (jsut like there's another one in Guernsey: that work
is almost complete in Jersey where it is now recognized officially with
English and even with today's French, due to the many relations that the
Anglo-Norman islands share with Normandie and Bretagne regions in France
and the fact that there's now a significant French community living in
those islands, even if they don't speak the French-Norman regional
"dialects" or one of the Channel Islands Norman variants)

For now ISO 639 considered all regional Oil languages to be "French" even
if they were not standard : they are in fact sufficiently different to be
distinguished. French people will easily say you that Norman "'dialects"
are difficult to understand, just like other Oil regional languages : some
of them are encoded in ISO 639 (notably Picard and Walloon), some are not
like Gallo (spoken in Eastern Britanny and recognized officially by the
Bretagne region and Ille-et-Vilaine), or Poitevin/Maraichin, Angevin,
Champenois... The problem being that France itself does not recognize any
other language than standard French and

[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

2017-06-11 Thread Nikki

Nikki added a comment.

In T165648#3337981, @Verdy_p wrote:
To add nrf-GG and
nrf-JE, we still need that Wikimedia renames its existing and incorrect use
of nrm to nrf.

Why do we need nrm to be renamed first? We have ike-cans and ike-latn even though we don't have ike, so I don't see what would prevent nrf-gg and nrf-je from being added before we deal with renaming nrm to nrf.

In T165648#3338078, @Verdy_p wrote:
@Esc3300: Guernésiais and Jérriais still have no separate ISO 639 code. "nrf" is encoding Norman as a whole (i.e. a single language) encompassing all its regional or dialectal variants, and still not as a macrolanguage (see ISO 639-3 for reference).
But for BCP47 "nrf" is fully conforming, just like "nrf-JE", "nrf-GG", "nrf-FR" (it uses regions subtags registered in IANA and inherited from ISO 3166-1, which have NO restriction for specific language). This is for now the only way to represent them in BCP 47.

http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=nrf only lists Jèrriais and Guernésiais. It was originally requested as Jèrriais with the code jrs. The ISO 639-3 RA investigated it and concluded that Jèrriais and Guernésiais are mutually intelligible and therefore created a code which covers both (see the comments on the original request). They didn't include Norman as a name, nor is there any mention of the continental variants, so it is unclear to me whether they intended nrf to cover all of Norman or only the variants from the Channel Islands. That's why I suggested it might be worth contacting them.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165648EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: NikkiCc: Verdy_p, gerritbot, Amire80, Nikki, jhsoby, GerardM, Baba_Tabita, Aklapper, Esc3300, GoranSMilovanovic, Adik2382, Th3d3v1ls, Ramalepe, Liugev6, QZanden, Lewizho99, Maathavan, Izno, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

GerardM added a comment.
Hoi,
The issue is that the proposed code is a subset. The main item is
problematic and therefore this code is problematic.
Thanks,

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

Verdy_p added a comment.
@GerardM: what do you read ? We all know that, but you are still pretending that the request above by @Esc3300 is invalid, when it is in fact perfectly correct. You are the only one to read it incorrectly.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165648EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Verdy_pCc: Verdy_p, gerritbot, Amire80, Nikki, jhsoby, GerardM, Baba_Tabita, Aklapper, Esc3300, GoranSMilovanovic, Adik2382, Th3d3v1ls, Ramalepe, Liugev6, QZanden, Lewizho99, Maathavan, Izno, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

GerardM added a comment.
Hoi,
The code NRM is used incorrectly .. as you know.
Thanks,

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

Verdy_p added a comment.
@Esc3300: Guernésiais and Jérriais still have no separate ISO 639 code. "nrf" is encoding Norman as a whole (i.e. a single language) encompassing all its regional or dialectal variants, and still not as a macrolanguage (see ISO 639-3 for reference).
But for BCP47 "nrf" is fully conforming, just like "nrf-JE", "nrf-GG", "nrf-FR" (it uses regions subtags registered in IANA and inherited from ISO 3166-1, which have NO restriction for specific language). This is for now the only way to represent them in BCP 47.

There's still no separate codes in ISO 639-3 (so there's also no primary language subtag in BCP47) for Jérriais and Guernésiais as single languages, which are still considered by ISO 639 (and BCP 47) as variants of "nrf". The only existing standard way to represent them is then to use region subtags after "nrf". This is perfectly valid in BCP 47 (using region subtags is deprecated but not invalid for languages that have been separately encoded in ISO 639-3 and then added to the IANA database for language subtags). There's no ambiguity at all in this case (this explains why no ISO 639-3 codes were even requested for Jerriais and Guernésiais as there was no demonstation they were ambiguous using region subtags and no demonstration that "nrf" should then become a macrolanguage).

There's only one missing case, for Sark (which uses a documented variant for Guernésiais), for which there's NO standard way to represent it (except by using an addition private use, given that Sark has NO region subtags for itself: it would then be "nrf-GG-x-sark" to conform to the BCP47 standard, or possibly just "nrf-x-sark")TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165648EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Verdy_pCc: Verdy_p, gerritbot, Amire80, Nikki, jhsoby, GerardM, Baba_Tabita, Aklapper, Esc3300, GoranSMilovanovic, Adik2382, Th3d3v1ls, Ramalepe, Liugev6, QZanden, Lewizho99, Maathavan, Izno, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

Esc3300 added a comment.
@GerardM  if you are are saying nrf-gg/nrf-je incorrectly identifies Guernésiais and Jèrriais, please provide a reference for your statement.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165648EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Esc3300Cc: Verdy_p, gerritbot, Amire80, Nikki, jhsoby, GerardM, Baba_Tabita, Aklapper, Esc3300, GoranSMilovanovic, Adik2382, Th3d3v1ls, Ramalepe, Liugev6, QZanden, Lewizho99, Maathavan, Izno, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

Verdy_p added a comment.
@GerardM I don't take it backward. This is perfectly correct, there's no mess at all except in your mind:


NOWHERE it was proposed to add nrm-je or nrm-gg (if that's whatt you are still reading incorrectly)...
But nrf-je and nrf-gg (also nrf-fr) are perfectly correct, and FULLY conforming to the BCP 47 standard.
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

GerardM added a comment.
Hoi,
As mentioned elsewhere and not only by me, it is not.
Thanks,

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

GerardM added a comment.
Hoi,
No you get it backward. At this time for this language we (WMF) identify
incorrectly. We should not make the mess even bigger.
Thanks,

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

Esc3300 added a comment.
It seems that there are many good reasons to sort out  T25216, but I don't want to go into that.

It seems that we agree that having codes nrf-gg and nrf-je for monolingual strings at Wikidata is the way to go.

The question is probably now on a technical level: is there any negative impact if we create these now.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165648EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Esc3300Cc: Verdy_p, gerritbot, Amire80, Nikki, jhsoby, GerardM, Baba_Tabita, Aklapper, Esc3300, GoranSMilovanovic, Adik2382, Th3d3v1ls, Ramalepe, Liugev6, QZanden, Lewizho99, Maathavan, Izno, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

Verdy_p added a comment.
The request is not for adding cides that are already standard according to
BCP 47 where nrf-GG and nrf-JE arr oerfectly valid and confirming. But what
is still blocking is that "nrm" in Wikimedia has ALWAYS been valid in BCP47
but incorrectly assigned for another unrelated language. To add nrf-GG and
nrf-JE, we still need that Wikimedia renames its existing and incorrect use
of nrm to nrf. This done, we still need the two variants for Jériais and
Guernesiais and notably the first one which has official status in Jersey.
For now there's still no ISO639-3 code assigned for the two languages
(Jersiais is not locally considered as a "variant" of Norman as it has its
own official status, its own nornative dictionary. But nrf-JE and nrf-GG
are still valid and conforming substitutes, even if BCP 47 now prefers, but
does not require, using a single ISO 639 code instead of using region codes
from ISO 3166 or UN-M49.
Many but not all legacy BCP 47 codes using region codes are now replaced by
single codes from ISO 639-3 but none if these legacy codes are made invalid.
Fir now there's not even any pending request to split nrf as a
macrolanguage for its 3 variants encided separately (continental, Jeriais
and Guernesiais) so nrf is still a simple language encompadding its 3
variants so we still need to add region codes (fr, gg, je) where
distinctions are needed.

The situation however is more complex because continental norman has at
least 3 known variants and guernesiais has also a known variant for Sark.
Thrse dialectal variants are not encoded in ISO 639 so if we need them in
BCP 47 the region codes will not be enough and we would need to use variant
codes instead that have to be registered in the IANA dabase of language
subtags. As long this is not done we can still use private use extension to
the main nrf langiage code to conform to BCP47.

In all these cases we must not use nrm.

So once again rename nrm to nrf as it was requested so many years ago !
This should not need any discussion and all users want that, including
those that want to develop content in Narom and that are blocked by
Wikimedia failure on using nrm for Norman.

Le 11 juin 2017 15:52, "GerardM" a
écrit :

GerardM added a comment.

Hoi,
Given that there is a Wikipedia with the wrong code, it is not possible
imho to do justice to the language. WMF has never had a reason to sort it
out, now it has. Adding codes is not appropriate under these circumstances.
Thanks,

GerardM

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

Esc3300 added a comment.
Can you explain why the problem at WP should block identifying languages correctly?TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165648EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Esc3300Cc: Verdy_p, gerritbot, Amire80, Nikki, jhsoby, GerardM, Baba_Tabita, Aklapper, Esc3300, GoranSMilovanovic, Adik2382, Th3d3v1ls, Ramalepe, Liugev6, QZanden, Lewizho99, Maathavan, Izno, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

GerardM added a comment.
Hoi,
Given that there is a Wikipedia with the wrong code, it is not possible
imho to do justice to the language. WMF has never had a reason to sort it
out, now it has. Adding codes is not appropriate under these circumstances.
Thanks,

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)

Esc3300 added a comment.
Wikidata tries to follow IETF language tags to provide the language of a specific string. This idependently if there is MediaWiki GUI in that language or even a Wikipedia language edition.

Oddly this fairly simple approach seems needlessly time-consuming. Maybe we should move to items instead.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165648EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Esc3300Cc: Verdy_p, gerritbot, Amire80, Nikki, jhsoby, GerardM, Baba_Tabita, Aklapper, Esc3300, GoranSMilovanovic, Adik2382, Th3d3v1ls, Ramalepe, Liugev6, QZanden, Lewizho99, Maathavan, Izno, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T165648: Add monolingual language codes nrf-gg (for Guernésiais), nrf-je (for Jèrriais)