[WikiEN-l] en.wiki gross incivility intoxicates Wikimedia projects
I just stumbled upon this (from a user asking help on #wikimedia-commons): an en.wiki supposedly respected user shows gross incivility on Commons, a surprised local admin doesn't know what to think and is insulted in return, the user continues and gets two blocks.[1] Until a few months ago I would have been suprised too, but I'm not after the case where a steward had to lock for security reasons a probably compromised en.wiki sysop and oversighter account, who was insulting people in all caps, only to be told that the behaviour is absolutely normal (the lock was quickly reversed).[2] So I'm wondering, would we benefit from some sort of communication 101 to help understanding between the continent (Wikimedia projects) and the island (en.wiki), in which inhabitants of the latter are reminded their communication standards may be misunderstood, and inhabitants of the former to keep calm and carry on? Nemo [1] Excerpts: * Go fuck yourself [...] Tony1 (talk) 03:14, 15 April 2013 (UTC) * I repeat: Go fuck yourself. Tony1 (talk) 04:00, 15 April 2013 (UTC) https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tony1oldid=94558166#You_have_been_blocked_for_a_duration_of_a_week [2] Excerpts: * «[...] edit summary FUCK OFF YOU PETTY FASCIST IDIOT, I have blocked Beeblebrox indefinitely as a possibly compromised account.» * «I'd say that's a fairly typical response (even if left unsaid) to anybody who attempts logic with the user Beeblebrox was having a discussion with. So, probably not compromised.» * etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive244oldid=538563600#I_have_blocked_User:Beeblebrox_as_a_possibly_compromised_account Also reverts of messages, that are apparently free on en.wiki but would get the user a block on several wikis I know: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Beeblebroxdiff=nextoldid=532574461 ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] en.wiki gross incivility intoxicates Wikimedia projects
It's a body with no head, and absent leadership and a mandate you're never going to achieve a uniform behavioral standard. Meanwhile, it appears you failed to disclose your own history with at least one of the users whose behavior you have called out. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] en.wiki gross incivility intoxicates Wikimedia projects
Nathan, actually I even linked an example of my own history of misunderstandings, from which I learnt in first person the different standards of en.wiki. It seemed to me enough context for my proposal, i.e. to avoid non-en.wiki users to go through the same mistakes again and again when interacting with en.wiki users. Nemo ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] en.wiki gross incivility intoxicates Wikimedia projects
I don't think what you're seeing is anything particularly peculiar to en.wp - I've encountered rude or socially awkward people from all projects. Since the English Wikipedia has by far the most users of any single project, it only follows that its share of difficult people works out to a larger number. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
On 14 April 2013 14:29, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: Pretty much everything that's fucked up about Wikipedia is emergent behaviour of people being a problem I think you mean failure of management. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] en.wiki gross incivility intoxicates Wikimedia projects
On 15 April 2013 16:14, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think what you're seeing is anything particularly peculiar to en.wp - I've encountered rude or socially awkward people from all projects. But see discussion on [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Tony1]]. Some of my unfavourite people there, for sure. And the comment What I'll do is to keep swearing at you. Charles ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
On 14 April 2013 14:29, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: Pretty much everything that's fucked up about Wikipedia is emergent behaviour of people being a problem I think you mean failure of management. ___ When we had a manager, Larry Sanger, he was both unconscious of and unable to deal with the natural dynamics of people as they grappled with an evolving situation. A system of self-management continues to evolve. Fred ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
Don't get your panties in a bunch, David. Quote-mining? What is this, Usenet? ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
On 15 April 2013 16:49, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: When we had a manager, Larry Sanger, he was both unconscious of and unable to deal with the natural dynamics of people as they grappled with an evolving situation. A system of self-management continues to evolve. Ergo, better management was required. Describing the current mess that is the English Wikipedia as having a system of self-management is generous. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
On 15 April 2013 16:43, Hex . h...@downlode.org wrote: On 14 April 2013 14:29, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: Pretty much everything that's fucked up about Wikipedia is emergent behaviour of people being a problem I think you mean failure of management. Well, it is an unsolved problem how to assign anyone to do anything in a system where everyone self-assigns their tasks. If there were any management, it would be unfair to label this failure, I think. It is a bit like dividing 0 by 0 and announcing the answer: not easy to argue with, but the problem is rather with the question. Actually a more accurate answer might be that WP clearly needs a measure of contrarianism in its workforce, because otherwise everyone would be working on the same, overmanned tasks. It would be remarkably good luck if we just happened to have exactly the right amount of contrariness. To get back on topic, maybe, if one has a single-person writing project, the psychological correlate of inclusionism is a complete lack of self-criticism, and of deletionism is a kind of writer's block. Which is sort of why the question is a crock. Any competent writer avoids both: bins some stuff and gets on with something else if a particular bit is being awkward. Charles ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
[WikiEN-l] Tom Strickland - former United States Attorney for Colorado
I am looking for a Wiki representative to assist in a change that needs to be made to Tom Strickland's Wikipedia pagehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Strickland. I need assistance because he requested that his page be locked several years ago because outside contacts were maliciously tampering with the content. He now needs a few edits to the page, but is not able since it has been locked for content protection. Can you please let me know who can, or who I can contact, to make the changes? -Brecke Brecke Latham | WilmerHale Senior Public Relations Specialist 1875 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Washington, DC 20006 USA +1 202 247 2492 (t) +1 202 663 6363 (f) brecke.lat...@wilmerhale.com Please consider the environment before printing this email. This email message and any attachments are being sent by Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP, are confidential, and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately-by replying to this message or by sending an email to postmas...@wilmerhale.commailto:postmas...@wilmerhale.com-and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. Thank you. For more information about WilmerHale, please visit us at http://www.wilmerhale.com. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Tom Strickland - former United States Attorney for Colorado
On 15 April 2013 16:51, Latham, Brecke brecke.lat...@wilmerhale.com wrote: I am looking for a Wiki representative to assist in a change that needs to be made to Tom Strickland's Wikipedia pagehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Strickland. I need assistance because he requested that his page be locked several years ago because outside contacts were maliciously tampering with the content. He now needs a few edits to the page, but is not able since it has been locked for content protection. Can you please let me know who can, or who I can contact, to make the changes? I've noted this at the BLP noticeboard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Tom_Strickland A useful thing to do would be to go to the talk page, openly saying who you are, and request changes there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tom_Strickland That way, an uninvolved editor can review them. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Tom Strickland - former United States Attorney for Colorado
The page isn't protected from editing and it doesn't appear that it ever was. On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 1:18 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 April 2013 16:51, Latham, Brecke brecke.lat...@wilmerhale.com wrote: I am looking for a Wiki representative to assist in a change that needs to be made to Tom Strickland's Wikipedia pagehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Strickland. I need assistance because he requested that his page be locked several years ago because outside contacts were maliciously tampering with the content. He now needs a few edits to the page, but is not able since it has been locked for content protection. Can you please let me know who can, or who I can contact, to make the changes? I've noted this at the BLP noticeboard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Tom_Strickland A useful thing to do would be to go to the talk page, openly saying who you are, and request changes there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tom_Strickland That way, an uninvolved editor can review them. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] en.wiki gross incivility intoxicates Wikimedia projects
You're an idiot, and you're damaging the project. It's not about copyright, or understanding it. What I'll do is to keep swearing at you, and I'll be uploading tons of files onto en.WP, not Commons. That will just disadvantage other users, and will cause Commons admins more work eventually in having to go through the process of transferring them to Commons. I will refuse to categorise. And I will encourage all other editors to do the same. Continue your personal vendetta against me—fine. Again, you and your thug friends on Commons are idiots and deserve no respect. Tony (talk) 15:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC) That's the comment Charles refers to. Oops! I can see why some frustration on Tony1's part is legit; a Commons admin deleted the image illustrating the Signpost article on the attempt by the DCRI to have a French Wikipedia article deleted, and then failed to explain it in a way that would make sense to a non-expert. You won't see me argue against accusations that Commons is dysfunctional, but the response is clearly way out of proportion. But the point that I made, and that probably hundreds of people have made before me, is that there isn't much we can do without altering the fundamental architecture of the community. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Tom Strickland - former United States Attorney for Colorado
You can, without conflict of interest, suggest sources and point out inaccuracies on the talk page of the article. You may, if you wish, contact me directly at my email address with suggestions and sources for information. I have never edited the article but am interested in assisting any public relations person who is candid. Fred Bauder I am looking for a Wiki representative to assist in a change that needs to be made to Tom Strickland's Wikipedia pagehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Strickland. I need assistance because he requested that his page be locked several years ago because outside contacts were maliciously tampering with the content. He now needs a few edits to the page, but is not able since it has been locked for content protection. Can you please let me know who can, or who I can contact, to make the changes? -Brecke Brecke Latham | WilmerHale Senior Public Relations Specialist 1875 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Washington, DC 20006 USA +1 202 247 2492 (t) +1 202 663 6363 (f) brecke.lat...@wilmerhale.com Please consider the environment before printing this email. This email message and any attachments are being sent by Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP, are confidential, and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately-by replying to this message or by sending an email to postmas...@wilmerhale.commailto:postmas...@wilmerhale.com-and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. Thank you. For more information about WilmerHale, please visit us at http://www.wilmerhale.com. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] en.wiki gross incivility intoxicates Wikimedia projects
On 15 April 2013 18:39, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: You're an idiot, and you're damaging the project. It's not about copyright, or understanding it. What I'll do is to keep swearing at you, and I'll be uploading tons of files onto en.WP, not Commons. That will just disadvantage other users, and will cause Commons admins more work eventually in having to go through the process of transferring them to Commons. I will refuse to categorise. And I will encourage all other editors to do the same. Continue your personal vendetta against me—fine. Again, you and your thug friends on Commons are idiots and deserve no respect. Tony (talk) 15:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC) That's the comment Charles refers to. Oops! I can see why some frustration on Tony1's part is legit; a Commons admin deleted the image illustrating the Signpost article on the attempt by the DCRI to have a French Wikipedia article deleted, and then failed to explain it in a way that would make sense to a non-expert. You won't see me argue against accusations that Commons is dysfunctional, but the response is clearly way out of proportion. But the point that I made, and that probably hundreds of people have made before me, is that there isn't much we can do without altering the fundamental architecture of the community. Actually, that is defeatist talk, and we can. It is completely clear that some editors use incivility consciously as a tactic. (The cited conversation is a smoking gun, if one were needed.) Such people should be sanctioned. Many more people have a temper (come to think of it, just about everyone does), and the point needs to be made that sanctioning those who use incivility systematically and disruptively does not mean sanctioning everyone on the planet. Then perhaps we could deal more rationally with the issue that discussions on enWP are often conducted in the wrong register. Charles ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
[WikiEN-l] incivility consciously as a tactic.
Right--and this would make all the difference. I am teaching a college class for which an optional assignment is to learn to edit in Wikipedia. Most of the students have had good experiences. Only a few have felt incivility consciously as a tactic. We discuss this in class and a few snide/bullying editors do great damage. There just isn't any reason for it. Good people will not tolerate bullying. It's no rite of passage that people must undergo. On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 15 April 2013 18:39, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: You're an idiot, and you're damaging the project. It's not about copyright, or understanding it. What I'll do is to keep swearing at you, and I'll be uploading tons of files onto en.WP, not Commons. That will just disadvantage other users, and will cause Commons admins more work eventually in having to go through the process of transferring them to Commons. I will refuse to categorise. And I will encourage all other editors to do the same. Continue your personal vendetta against me—fine. Again, you and your thug friends on Commons are idiots and deserve no respect. Tony (talk) 15:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC) That's the comment Charles refers to. Oops! I can see why some frustration on Tony1's part is legit; a Commons admin deleted the image illustrating the Signpost article on the attempt by the DCRI to have a French Wikipedia article deleted, and then failed to explain it in a way that would make sense to a non-expert. You won't see me argue against accusations that Commons is dysfunctional, but the response is clearly way out of proportion. But the point that I made, and that probably hundreds of people have made before me, is that there isn't much we can do without altering the fundamental architecture of the community. Actually, that is defeatist talk, and we can. It is completely clear that some editors use incivility consciously as a tactic. (The cited conversation is a smoking gun, if one were needed.) Such people should be sanctioned. Many more people have a temper (come to think of it, just about everyone does), and the point needs to be made that sanctioning those who use incivility systematically and disruptively does not mean sanctioning everyone on the planet. Then perhaps we could deal more rationally with the issue that discussions on enWP are often conducted in the wrong register. Charles ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] incivility consciously as a tactic.
Right--and this would make all the difference. I am teaching a college class for which an optional assignment is to learn to edit in Wikipedia. Most of the students have had good experiences. Only a few have felt incivility consciously as a tactic. We discuss this in class and a few snide/bullying editors do great damage. There just isn't any reason for it. Good people will not tolerate bullying. It's no rite of passage that people must undergo. You are correct. This is not a new issue; efforts to control it have extended over years with mixed results. Please report these issues to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents and we will do what we can. Fred ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] incivility consciously as a tactic.
Incivility is difficult to deal with. One of the reasons is because there is a school of thought that a certain level of frankness and brusqueness is necessary in a place like Wikipedia. The trouble with that is that people draw the line in different places, partly due to cultural differences, partly due to personal levels of what they will accept. Some people also treat this as a matter of principle, rather than as one of being nice. The way I would describe it (though you really need to find an exponent of this view to describe it properly, as I don't support this view myself) is that it is more honest to say what you really think in simple language, than to dissemble and use careful and diplomatic language to essentially say the same thing. I favour the latter approach until a certain tipping point is reached, and will then be more frank myself. I can see the point people are making when they say that being more forthright earlier on and consistently on a matter of principle is better, but the end result tends to be the same. Hurt feelings all round for those who don't get that viewpoint, and those who have a tendency towards the more brusque approach sometimes (not always) being baited by those who like winding people up. The other effect, most damagingly of all, is that the 'community' (which is a localised, nebulous entity that is in flux at the best of times and varies depending on location and timing) ends up polarised over the issue. So you get periodic flare-ups, exacerbated by the nature of online communications (the lack of body language to and verbal tone) and the lack of empathy for others that some who are drawn to Wikipedia exhibit. Carcharoth On 4/16/13, Kathleen McCook klmcc...@gmail.com wrote: Right--and this would make all the difference. I am teaching a college class for which an optional assignment is to learn to edit in Wikipedia. Most of the students have had good experiences. Only a few have felt incivility consciously as a tactic. We discuss this in class and a few snide/bullying editors do great damage. There just isn't any reason for it. Good people will not tolerate bullying. It's no rite of passage that people must undergo. On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 15 April 2013 18:39, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: You're an idiot, and you're damaging the project. It's not about copyright, or understanding it. What I'll do is to keep swearing at you, and I'll be uploading tons of files onto en.WP, not Commons. That will just disadvantage other users, and will cause Commons admins more work eventually in having to go through the process of transferring them to Commons. I will refuse to categorise. And I will encourage all other editors to do the same. Continue your personal vendetta against me—fine. Again, you and your thug friends on Commons are idiots and deserve no respect. Tony (talk) 15:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC) That's the comment Charles refers to. Oops! I can see why some frustration on Tony1's part is legit; a Commons admin deleted the image illustrating the Signpost article on the attempt by the DCRI to have a French Wikipedia article deleted, and then failed to explain it in a way that would make sense to a non-expert. You won't see me argue against accusations that Commons is dysfunctional, but the response is clearly way out of proportion. But the point that I made, and that probably hundreds of people have made before me, is that there isn't much we can do without altering the fundamental architecture of the community. Actually, that is defeatist talk, and we can. It is completely clear that some editors use incivility consciously as a tactic. (The cited conversation is a smoking gun, if one were needed.) Such people should be sanctioned. Many more people have a temper (come to think of it, just about everyone does), and the point needs to be made that sanctioning those who use incivility systematically and disruptively does not mean sanctioning everyone on the planet. Then perhaps we could deal more rationally with the issue that discussions on enWP are often conducted in the wrong register. Charles ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
