Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-09 Thread Durova
(cough) Looked up the price of tuition at a Stateside university lately?
It's hardly free.  Including interlibrary loans in the bargain is the least
they could do in return.

On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Charlotte Webb
wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Carcharoth 
> wrote:
> > 
>
> Just remember "glaucoma" is the best excuse for everything, Carch.
>
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Sam Korn  wrote:
> > In the unlikely event that my university library didn't have a book
> > (it's a copyright library), the charge is £3 (c. 5 Swiss francs,
> > according to Google).  The request almost invariably goes to the
> > British Library.
>
> Not being a student I didn't bother asking about this at the nearest
> university library. There is a small public library much closer but I
> think the non-fiction section would fit in the trunk plus back-seat of
> my car. Plenty of Danielle Steel however. :/
>
> —C.W.
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-09 Thread Charlotte Webb
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Carcharoth  wrote:
> 

Just remember "glaucoma" is the best excuse for everything, Carch.

On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Sam Korn  wrote:
> In the unlikely event that my university library didn't have a book
> (it's a copyright library), the charge is £3 (c. 5 Swiss francs,
> according to Google).  The request almost invariably goes to the
> British Library.

Not being a student I didn't bother asking about this at the nearest
university library. There is a small public library much closer but I
think the non-fiction section would fit in the trunk plus back-seat of
my car. Plenty of Danielle Steel however. :/

—C.W.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-08 Thread Michael Bimmler
Ahem, the below is so off-topic that I intended to send it offlist,
really. Me blushes somewhat and, with his list admin hat on, tries to
steer the discussion on-topic again.
M.

On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:48 PM, Michael Bimmler  wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Sam Korn  wrote:
>
>
>> In the unlikely event that my university library didn't have a book
>> (it's a copyright library), the charge is £3 (c. 5 Swiss francs,
>> according to Google).  The request almost invariably goes to the
>> British Library.
>>
>> Next-day ordering can be arranged for £9.
>
> Heh, I was just looking up fees at my
> university-to-be-from-autumn-onwards (my enrolment in Zurich last year
> was somewhat a technical matter, as I was immediately granted "leave
> of absence" again to pursue two internships)...and inevitably the fees
> there are at £4 and £10 respectively. I guess light blue beats dark
> blue in terms of fees by one pound ;-)
>
> Best,
> Michael
> --
> Michael Bimmler
> mbimm...@gmail.com
>



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mbimm...@gmail.com

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-08 Thread Michael Bimmler
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Sam Korn  wrote:


> In the unlikely event that my university library didn't have a book
> (it's a copyright library), the charge is £3 (c. 5 Swiss francs,
> according to Google).  The request almost invariably goes to the
> British Library.
>
> Next-day ordering can be arranged for £9.

Heh, I was just looking up fees at my
university-to-be-from-autumn-onwards (my enrolment in Zurich last year
was somewhat a technical matter, as I was immediately granted "leave
of absence" again to pursue two internships)...and inevitably the fees
there are at £4 and £10 respectively. I guess light blue beats dark
blue in terms of fees by one pound ;-)

Best,
Michael
-- 
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mbimm...@gmail.com

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-08 Thread Sam Korn
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Michael Bimmler  wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:31 AM, phoebe ayers  wrote:
>
>> Interlibrary loans at your university (or public library) are not free
>> at all. They are just free for *you*, because your university picks up
>> the tab for you. The average cost of an item borrowed through ILL at a
>> typical mid-size university is between $20-$30 per item. (google:
>> "average cost interlibrary loan", find lots of studies to this
>> effect). This, however, is part of the cost of doing research.
>
> That's interesting...mind telling my resident University of Zurich
> librarians that bit, should you ever meet them at a conference?
> I currently get charged (and yes, the figures are the same nevermind
> whether I use it as member of the public or as enrolled student or as
> faculty member)
>
> 7 Swiss francs for books from other libraries in the
> German-part-of-Switzerland university libraries network
> 10 Swiss francs for books from the rest of Switzerland
> 20 Swiss francs for books from Europe minus Great Britain
> 35 Swiss francs for books from Great Britain
> 45 Swiss francs for books from the United States
> "depending on how much it actually cost *us* " for books from all the
> other countries
>
> Would love to hear some more experiences on this: Is it common in the
> US / UK for academic libraries not to charge at all for ILLs? Then I'm
> ever so slightly envious...

In the unlikely event that my university library didn't have a book
(it's a copyright library), the charge is £3 (c. 5 Swiss francs,
according to Google).  The request almost invariably goes to the
British Library.

Next-day ordering can be arranged for £9.

Sam

-- 
Sam
PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-08 Thread Michael Bimmler
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:31 AM, phoebe ayers  wrote:

> Interlibrary loans at your university (or public library) are not free
> at all. They are just free for *you*, because your university picks up
> the tab for you. The average cost of an item borrowed through ILL at a
> typical mid-size university is between $20-$30 per item. (google:
> "average cost interlibrary loan", find lots of studies to this
> effect). This, however, is part of the cost of doing research.

That's interesting...mind telling my resident University of Zurich
librarians that bit, should you ever meet them at a conference?
I currently get charged (and yes, the figures are the same nevermind
whether I use it as member of the public or as enrolled student or as
faculty member)

7 Swiss francs for books from other libraries in the
German-part-of-Switzerland university libraries network
10 Swiss francs for books from the rest of Switzerland
20 Swiss francs for books from Europe minus Great Britain
35 Swiss francs for books from Great Britain
45 Swiss francs for books from the United States
"depending on how much it actually cost *us* " for books from all the
other countries

Would love to hear some more experiences on this: Is it common in the
US / UK for academic libraries not to charge at all for ILLs? Then I'm
ever so slightly envious...

Michael
-- 
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mbimm...@gmail.com

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-05 Thread phoebe ayers
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Oldak Quill  wrote:
> 2009/3/4 Durova :
>> Two words: interlibrary loan.
>>
>> -Durova
>
> That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from
> large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line
> resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens
> of vast libraries a bus ride away.
>
> Is there a page on Wikipedia where one user (a rural user, let's
> presume), can ask for an offline reference to be checked ("can you
> check this page of this book for this statement/fact")? If not, might
> it be a useful service to offer?
>
> I, for example, live in London and have easy access to a number of
> large university libraries and the British Library (if the resource is
> especially obscure). It would also be possible to scan in the relevant
> page of a PD/uncopyrighted book, as proof of the reference, for
> example.

Oldak et al,
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange,
which appears to still be going on. What you talk about could possibly
be added into this service?

-- Phoebe

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-05 Thread Charlotte Webb
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Carcharoth  wrote:
> I got as far as checking one Wikipedia article and finding that it was
> heavily referenced to the book I had, which made some sort of sense,
> but as for actually comparing the refs and article content to the book
> itself, that taks defeated me.

This may be a big part of the problem. Ctrl-F doesn't work on paper.
Indexes can only do so much. No blue words to grab your attention,
etc.

> But it is a task that both needs doing and there needs to be a way to
> record that x number of people have checked any particular reference
> and agreed with it, regardless of whether it is offline or online.

We could call it FlaggedRefs.

—C.W.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-05 Thread Charlotte Webb
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Oldak Quill  wrote:
> That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from
> large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line
> resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens
> of vast libraries a bus ride away.
>
> Is there a page on Wikipedia where one user (a rural user, let's
> presume), can ask for an offline reference to be checked ("can you
> check this page of this book for this statement/fact")? If not, might
> it be a useful service to offer?
>
> I, for example, live in London and have easy access to a number of
> large university libraries and the British Library (if the resource is
> especially obscure). It would also be possible to scan in the relevant
> page of a PD/uncopyrighted book, as proof of the reference, for
> example.

One could host their own "fair use" version of wikisource. This would
be at their own legal peril of course. Make it clear that you're not
affiliated with wikipedia, in fact don't even use the word "wiki". How
about "BookTube", is that taken, hmm...

Google Books has been incredibly useful for me but it does not take
submissions or requests.

—C.W.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-05 Thread Charlotte Webb
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Carcharoth  wrote:
> Returning to an issue weeks later when the book has arrived and when
> it has dropped off people's watchlists (if they keep them tidy) can
> have its advantages, though. Unless the article got deleted, of
> course.

Well if you've finally got the sources in the palm of your hand you
have no reliance on the article's previous incarnation. On the other
hand it's nicer to be able to measure how much you improved something.

—C.W.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Carcharoth
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Ray Saintonge  wrote:



> The glasses are interesting, but I note that they have a 60 degree field
> of view and a resolution of 320 x 240.  I would conclude from that that
> in order to get a 3" by 2" piece of text at 100 d.p.i. one would need to
> keep one's face only two inches from the desired text. :-)

"But Sir, if you need to look that closely to read the text, why don't
you take your sunglasses off?"



All you need now is the pen with the memory wipe flash thingy.

Yes, MIB II was on TV tonight.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Carcharoth
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Phil Nash  wrote:
> Oldak Quill wrote:
>>> 2009/3/4 Durova :
 Two words: interlibrary loan.

 -Durova
>>>
>>> That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from
>>> large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line
>>> resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens
>>> of vast libraries a bus ride away.
>
> To my eternal regret, I watched my local news programme the other night, to
> find that a book warehouse in Bristol had closed down and rather than skip
> or burn its contents, the public had been invited to come along and help
> themselves. If I'd been aware of it, I would have been there, because it
> appears that about 250,000 books were available. By  the time the TV crew
> got there, there was very little left. Shame. There should be a way of
> finding out about these things, and perhaps some sort of "give us your old
> books" drive would be worth trying.

I picked up a couple of big biographies while rummaging through some
charity shops. They now sit on a bookshelf making me feel guilty that
I haven't done anything with them. I got as far as checking one
Wikipedia article and finding that it was heavily referenced to the
book I had, which made some sort of sense, but as for actually
comparing the refs and article content to the book itself, that taks
defeated me. But it is a task that both needs doing and there needs to
be a way to record that x number of people have checked any particular
reference and agreed with it, regardless of whether it is offline or
online.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread David Gerard
2009/3/5 phoebe ayers :

> and a decent bibliography on any topic may be one of the greatest
> services Wikipedia provides in a few years.


It's one of the greatest services we provide *now*. Even when the
article prose has been turned into querulous grey mush, all but
unreadable and uneditable between the text creaking tortured beneath a
crippling weight of leechlike subclauses and the  tags nailing
the subclauses to its flesh, people LOVE the reference lists. They're
perfect for further reading, or writing a non-sucky version of the
article yourself.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread phoebe ayers
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Thomas Dalton  wrote:
> 2009/3/4 geni :
>> 2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton :
>>> 2009/3/4 geni :
 Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and
 stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have
 to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example
 my county does not have a copy of:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F
>>>
>>> Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North
>>> America, please?
>>
>> I'm kinda British.
>>
>> Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with
>> regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure.
>
> Oh, sorry, where you referring to British counties (I'm not sure what
> the public library system is in Britain for this kind of thing - I'm a
> student so have access to university libraries and inter-library loans
> through that which aren't expensive at all - maybe even free)? I
> generally assume if someone doesn't say what country they're talking
> about then they mean the USA - it's usually a pretty safe assumption.

Interlibrary loans at your university (or public library) are not free
at all. They are just free for *you*, because your university picks up
the tab for you. The average cost of an item borrowed through ILL at a
typical mid-size university is between $20-$30 per item. (google:
"average cost interlibrary loan", find lots of studies to this
effect). This, however, is part of the cost of doing research.

Re: print accessibility: a good rule of thumb about whether something
is easy to get or not is whether the item being cited is widely held
at many libraries or not (see: http://worldcat.org, though this isn't
anything like complete outside North America). I favor printed books
that are held by many places over obscure works that are only at one
or two whenever possible. Of course, sometimes this isn't possible,
and a decent bibliography on any topic may be one of the greatest
services Wikipedia provides in a few years. We should strive to cite
it all: print works, online works, anything we can get our hands on.

-- Phoebe, one of your resident grumpy librarians

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread David Gerard
2009/3/5 Ray Saintonge :

> The glasses are interesting, but I note that they have a 60 degree field
> of view and a resolution of 320 x 240.  I would conclude from that that
> in order to get a 3" by 2" piece of text at 100 d.p.i. one would need to
> keep one's face only two inches from the desired text. :-)


I've seen others adertised with 1.3MP cameras. No doubt up to the
finest digital photographic standards 2002 could offer.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Phil Nash
Ray Saintonge wrote:
>> Phil Nash wrote:
>>> Oldak Quill wrote:
>>>
> 2009/3/4 Durova:
>
>> Two words: interlibrary loan.
>>
> That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away
> from large book repositories, with little capacity to check
> off-line resources, while other users live in metropolitan
> centres with dozens of vast libraries a bus ride away.
>
>>> To my eternal regret, I watched my local news programme the other
>>> night, to find that a book warehouse in Bristol had closed down and
>>> rather than skip or burn its contents, the public had been invited
>>> to come along and help themselves. If I'd been aware of it, I would
>>> have been there, because it appears that about 250,000 books were
>>> available. By  the time the TV crew got there, there was very
>>> little left. Shame. There should be a way of finding out about
>>> these things, and perhaps some sort of "give us your old books"
>>> drive would be worth trying.
>>
>> The simple fact that 250,000 books should go so quickly shows that an
>> interest in the product is still there.
>>
>> Ec

That would be great, if we had any confidence or hope that such incidents 
would result in improved sourcing or even new articles; but we can't be that 
sure. I could easily have found even fifty books there to replace those I've 
lost over the years that even libraries don't have any more, and that could 
have fuelled my editing for the rest of my life. So, a couple of months, 
then.




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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Ray Saintonge
David Gerard wrote:
> 2009/3/4 geni :
>   
>> Getting access to existing collections and permission to make copies
>> of them (county archives will generaly photocopy stuff for you but
>> they won't let you point a camera at the stuff) is a more significant
>> issue at this point.
>> 
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sun-Glasses-Camera-with-2GB-Flash-Memory-+Micro-SD-Slot_W0QQitemZ150327823289QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090220?IMSfp=TL090220122003r5179
>
> Now to work out how to make it a tax deduction!
>
>   
I think that the North American standard is to have coin-operated 
photocopiers at strategic places.  This leaves staff only needing to 
copy the most valuable pieces.

The glasses are interesting, but I note that they have a 60 degree field 
of view and a resolution of 320 x 240.  I would conclude from that that 
in order to get a 3" by 2" piece of text at 100 d.p.i. one would need to 
keep one's face only two inches from the desired text. :-)

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Ray Saintonge
Phil Nash wrote:
> Oldak Quill wrote:
>   
>>> 2009/3/4 Durova:
>>>   
 Two words: interlibrary loan.
 
>>> That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from
>>> large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line
>>> resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens
>>> of vast libraries a bus ride away.
>>>   
> To my eternal regret, I watched my local news programme the other night, to 
> find that a book warehouse in Bristol had closed down and rather than skip 
> or burn its contents, the public had been invited to come along and help 
> themselves. If I'd been aware of it, I would have been there, because it 
> appears that about 250,000 books were available. By  the time the TV crew 
> got there, there was very little left. Shame. There should be a way of 
> finding out about these things, and perhaps some sort of "give us your old 
> books" drive would be worth trying.

The simple fact that 250,000 books should go so quickly shows that an 
interest in the product is still there.

Ec

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Ray Saintonge
Thomas Dalton wrote:
> 2009/3/4 Ray Saintonge:
>   
>> It confuses me when access to British democracy depends on paying "only"
>> $2.95 to an American supplier.
>> 
> Could you explain that reference?
>   
The article was about a movement to improve democracy in the UK, but the 
most easily accessible article was from an American newspaper for which 
one would pay $2.95.  That strikes me as odd.

Ec

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Will Beback
David Gerard wrote:
> (I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a
> reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an
> *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with
> "{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of
> anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.
>
>
> - d.
One editor recently wrote on the WP:BLPN that he'd delete any negative 
allegation in a BLP that isn't verifiable with a free online reference, 
arguing that such a practice is the only way of keeping out libelous 
material.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=272047238



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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Sage Ross
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 5:44 PM, geni  wrote:
> 2009/3/4 David Gerard :
>> 2009/3/4 geni :
>>
>>> Getting access to existing collections and permission to make copies
>>> of them (county archives will generaly photocopy stuff for you but
>>> they won't let you point a camera at the stuff) is a more significant
>>> issue at this point.
>>
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sun-Glasses-Camera-with-2GB-Flash-Memory-+Micro-SD-Slot_W0QQitemZ150327823289QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090220?IMSfp=TL090220122003r5179
>>
>> Now to work out how to make it a tax deduction!
>>
>>
>> - d.
>
> Sneaking in a camera would not be a problem if I felt like doing that
> but I have standards. What bugs me is the restriction is so
> irrational.
>
> It's not a matter of protecting the documents.  I was allowed to
> handle them without wearing gloves, they were fairly robust (19th
> century1:500 OS maps. large enough scale that would identify
> individual rooms in buildings) and in any case photographing even with
> flash (not that I would need to use a flash) would have done less
> damage than photocopying.
>
> It's not a matter of disruption since modern camera can be pretty much
> silent where as the microfilm machines people were useing were rather
> noisy.
>
> It may be a matter of control since there are conditions on what you
> can do with the photocopies and when a few years back I asked them
> about CC release I wasn't able to get a straight answer.
>
> Annoying.
>

I think a big part of why so many libraries do this is fear of
copyright liability, if they permit patrons to copy materials that are
copyrighted.  With photocopies that they make or explicitly authorize,
the copying can be okayed by their trained people to ensure that it's
something where copying is allowed.

They probably wouldn't be liable anyway, and the rules they train
people with often go well beyond what the law requires, but it's an
approach that has been entrenched pretty deeply.  Libraries and
archives have a lot of practices that have not been updated to account
for the realities of the post-Internet world and the growing level of
copyright awareness and activism on the part of patrons.

-Sage (User:Ragesoss)

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread geni
2009/3/4 David Gerard :
> 2009/3/4 geni :
>
>> Getting access to existing collections and permission to make copies
>> of them (county archives will generaly photocopy stuff for you but
>> they won't let you point a camera at the stuff) is a more significant
>> issue at this point.
>
>
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sun-Glasses-Camera-with-2GB-Flash-Memory-+Micro-SD-Slot_W0QQitemZ150327823289QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090220?IMSfp=TL090220122003r5179
>
> Now to work out how to make it a tax deduction!
>
>
> - d.

Sneaking in a camera would not be a problem if I felt like doing that
but I have standards. What bugs me is the restriction is so
irrational.

It's not a matter of protecting the documents.  I was allowed to
handle them without wearing gloves, they were fairly robust (19th
century1:500 OS maps. large enough scale that would identify
individual rooms in buildings) and in any case photographing even with
flash (not that I would need to use a flash) would have done less
damage than photocopying.

It's not a matter of disruption since modern camera can be pretty much
silent where as the microfilm machines people were useing were rather
noisy.

It may be a matter of control since there are conditions on what you
can do with the photocopies and when a few years back I asked them
about CC release I wasn't able to get a straight answer.

Annoying.

-- 
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread David Gerard
2009/3/4 geni :

> Getting access to existing collections and permission to make copies
> of them (county archives will generaly photocopy stuff for you but
> they won't let you point a camera at the stuff) is a more significant
> issue at this point.


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sun-Glasses-Camera-with-2GB-Flash-Memory-+Micro-SD-Slot_W0QQitemZ150327823289QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090220?IMSfp=TL090220122003r5179

Now to work out how to make it a tax deduction!


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread geni
2009/3/4 Phil Nash :
>  There should be a way of
> finding out about these things, and perhaps some sort of "give us your old
> books" drive would be worth trying.

Neither the WMF nor chapters are really in a position to store large
numbers of books and for the most part current library services do the
job well enough.

Getting access to existing collections and permission to make copies
of them (county archives will generaly photocopy stuff for you but
they won't let you point a camera at the stuff) is a more significant
issue at this point.

-- 
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Noah Salzman

On Mar 4, 2009, at 1:28 PM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:

> The quick answer is yes.  I recall running acrost it a few years   
> ago.  I
> think I may have even added my own name for something or  other.  I  
> have a rather
> large library (for an individual) in my  house.
>
> The problem is, I can't quite recall what the name of that page  
> was.   Maybe
> it will come to me later today when I'm not busy trying to patch my  
> roof  ;)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Fact_and_Reference_Check
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange

Perhaps?



...
..
.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread WJhonson
The quick answer is yes.  I recall running acrost it a few years  ago.  I 
think I may have even added my own name for something or  other.  I have a 
rather 
large library (for an individual) in my  house.
 
The problem is, I can't quite recall what the name of that page was.   Maybe 
it will come to me later today when I'm not busy trying to patch my roof  ;)
 
Will Johnson
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/4/2009 12:56:25 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
oldakqu...@gmail.com writes:

Is there  a page on Wikipedia where one user (a rural user, let's
presume), can ask  for an offline reference to be checked ("can you
check this page of this  book for this statement/fact")? If not, might
it be a useful service to  offer?

**Need a job? Find employment help in your area. 
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp0005)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Phil Nash
Oldak Quill wrote:
>> 2009/3/4 Durova :
>>> Two words: interlibrary loan.
>>>
>>> -Durova
>>
>> That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from
>> large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line
>> resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens
>> of vast libraries a bus ride away.

To my eternal regret, I watched my local news programme the other night, to 
find that a book warehouse in Bristol had closed down and rather than skip 
or burn its contents, the public had been invited to come along and help 
themselves. If I'd been aware of it, I would have been there, because it 
appears that about 250,000 books were available. By  the time the TV crew 
got there, there was very little left. Shame. There should be a way of 
finding out about these things, and perhaps some sort of "give us your old 
books" drive would be worth trying.



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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Durova
That would be brilliant.  Great idea!

Fwiw, I have a query like that for anyone who has access to the local
records of Roubaix, France.  Trying to find the birth and/or death dates for
Jean Desbouvrie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Desbouvrie

Possible April Fool's FA here; small topic.  The available sources provide
limited information about his lifespan.

-Durova

On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Oldak Quill  wrote:

> 2009/3/4 Durova :
> > Two words: interlibrary loan.
> >
> > -Durova
>
> That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from
> large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line
> resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens
> of vast libraries a bus ride away.
>
> Is there a page on Wikipedia where one user (a rural user, let's
> presume), can ask for an offline reference to be checked ("can you
> check this page of this book for this statement/fact")? If not, might
> it be a useful service to offer?
>
> I, for example, live in London and have easy access to a number of
> large university libraries and the British Library (if the resource is
> especially obscure). It would also be possible to scan in the relevant
> page of a PD/uncopyrighted book, as proof of the reference, for
> example.
>
> --
> Oldak Quill (oldakqu...@gmail.com)
>
> ___
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Oldak Quill
2009/3/4 Durova :
> Two words: interlibrary loan.
>
> -Durova

That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from
large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line
resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens
of vast libraries a bus ride away.

Is there a page on Wikipedia where one user (a rural user, let's
presume), can ask for an offline reference to be checked ("can you
check this page of this book for this statement/fact")? If not, might
it be a useful service to offer?

I, for example, live in London and have easy access to a number of
large university libraries and the British Library (if the resource is
especially obscure). It would also be possible to scan in the relevant
page of a PD/uncopyrighted book, as proof of the reference, for
example.

-- 
Oldak Quill (oldakqu...@gmail.com)

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Thomas Dalton
2009/3/4 Ray Saintonge :
> It confuses me when access to British democracy depends on paying "only"
> $2.95 to an American supplier.

Could you explain that reference?

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Ray Saintonge
David Gerard wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7914828.stm
>
> It's an article on how wonderful it is that political movements are
> better documented in their formative stages these days ... but all I
> could think was what a pain it can be researching anything that
> happened before 1995.
>
> After the low-hanging fruit come those of us with books.
>
>   
But it was the BBC that threw out all those early episodes of "Dr. Who." 

It confuses me when access to British democracy depends on paying "only" 
$2.95 to an American supplier.  It makes me wonder how many of us have 
grasped the enormity of our task.

Ec

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Durova
The time frame for the recent discussion had already been set by the
sockpuppeteer at two months.  Usually I propose about six weeks.

-Durova

On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 11:01 AM, David Goodman  wrote:

> I worked for many years running (among other things) an interlibrary
> loan system. Any librarian in at least the US who says that a free or
> inexpensive copy is not available for anything other than a rare book
> or an expensive art or reference book is not doing their job right.
>
> The main problem with the system with respect to Wikipedia is that
> most libraries work very slowly, so it can take some weeks--and
> therefore cannot be used in a Wikipedia debate, which is typically
> closed in a few days (or hours).,
>
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Durova  wrote:
> > Good replies.
> >
> > Usually in practice that generates one of two responses:
> >
> > *Either the editor requests an interlibrary loan (or finds someone
> willing
> > and able).
> > *Or else the editor evades the suggestion and continues disputing on
> other
> > points.
> >
> > In practice, it's an effective way to distinguish who's serious about the
> > project and who isn't.  I suggested interlibrary loan at a talk page the
> > other day and go an uncooperative response.
> >
> > Lo and behold, there had previously been a conduct RFC and a positive
> > checkuser result for disruption at that article.  A new checkuser came in
> > positive also.  Today someone got blocked for a month.
> >
> > -Durova
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Thomas Dalton  >wrote:
> >
> >> 2009/3/4 geni :
> >> > 2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton :
> >> >> 2009/3/4 geni :
> >> >>> Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed
> and
> >> >>> stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you
> have
> >> >>> to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For
> example
> >> >>> my county does not have a copy of:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F
> >> >>
> >> >> Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North
> >> >> America, please?
> >> >
> >> > I'm kinda British.
> >> >
> >> > Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with
> >> > regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure.
> >>
> >> Oh, sorry, where you referring to British counties (I'm not sure what
> >> the public library system is in Britain for this kind of thing - I'm a
> >> student so have access to university libraries and inter-library loans
> >> through that which aren't expensive at all - maybe even free)? I
> >> generally assume if someone doesn't say what country they're talking
> >> about then they mean the USA - it's usually a pretty safe assumption.
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
>
>
>
> --
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> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Carcharoth
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:01 PM, David Goodman  wrote:
> I worked for many years running (among other things) an interlibrary
> loan system. Any librarian in at least the US who says that a free or
> inexpensive copy is not available for anything other than a rare book
> or an expensive art or reference book is not doing their job right.
>
> The main problem with the system with respect to Wikipedia is that
> most libraries work very slowly, so it can take some weeks--and
> therefore cannot be used in a Wikipedia debate, which is typically
> closed in a few days (or hours).,

Returning to an issue weeks later when the book has arrived and when
it has dropped off people's watchlists (if they keep them tidy) can
have its advantages, though. Unless the article got deleted, of
course.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread David Goodman
I worked for many years running (among other things) an interlibrary
loan system. Any librarian in at least the US who says that a free or
inexpensive copy is not available for anything other than a rare book
or an expensive art or reference book is not doing their job right.

The main problem with the system with respect to Wikipedia is that
most libraries work very slowly, so it can take some weeks--and
therefore cannot be used in a Wikipedia debate, which is typically
closed in a few days (or hours).,

On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Durova  wrote:
> Good replies.
>
> Usually in practice that generates one of two responses:
>
> *Either the editor requests an interlibrary loan (or finds someone willing
> and able).
> *Or else the editor evades the suggestion and continues disputing on other
> points.
>
> In practice, it's an effective way to distinguish who's serious about the
> project and who isn't.  I suggested interlibrary loan at a talk page the
> other day and go an uncooperative response.
>
> Lo and behold, there had previously been a conduct RFC and a positive
> checkuser result for disruption at that article.  A new checkuser came in
> positive also.  Today someone got blocked for a month.
>
> -Durova
>
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
>
>> 2009/3/4 geni :
>> > 2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton :
>> >> 2009/3/4 geni :
>> >>> Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and
>> >>> stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have
>> >>> to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example
>> >>> my county does not have a copy of:
>> >>>
>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F
>> >>
>> >> Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North
>> >> America, please?
>> >
>> > I'm kinda British.
>> >
>> > Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with
>> > regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure.
>>
>> Oh, sorry, where you referring to British counties (I'm not sure what
>> the public library system is in Britain for this kind of thing - I'm a
>> student so have access to university libraries and inter-library loans
>> through that which aren't expensive at all - maybe even free)? I
>> generally assume if someone doesn't say what country they're talking
>> about then they mean the USA - it's usually a pretty safe assumption.
>>
>> ___
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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>
>
>
> --
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-- 
David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Durova
Good replies.

Usually in practice that generates one of two responses:

*Either the editor requests an interlibrary loan (or finds someone willing
and able).
*Or else the editor evades the suggestion and continues disputing on other
points.

In practice, it's an effective way to distinguish who's serious about the
project and who isn't.  I suggested interlibrary loan at a talk page the
other day and go an uncooperative response.

Lo and behold, there had previously been a conduct RFC and a positive
checkuser result for disruption at that article.  A new checkuser came in
positive also.  Today someone got blocked for a month.

-Durova

On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> 2009/3/4 geni :
> > 2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton :
> >> 2009/3/4 geni :
> >>> Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and
> >>> stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have
> >>> to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example
> >>> my county does not have a copy of:
> >>>
> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F
> >>
> >> Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North
> >> America, please?
> >
> > I'm kinda British.
> >
> > Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with
> > regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure.
>
> Oh, sorry, where you referring to British counties (I'm not sure what
> the public library system is in Britain for this kind of thing - I'm a
> student so have access to university libraries and inter-library loans
> through that which aren't expensive at all - maybe even free)? I
> generally assume if someone doesn't say what country they're talking
> about then they mean the USA - it's usually a pretty safe assumption.
>
> ___
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Thomas Dalton
2009/3/4 geni :
> 2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton :
>> 2009/3/4 geni :
>>> Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and
>>> stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have
>>> to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example
>>> my county does not have a copy of:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F
>>
>> Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North
>> America, please?
>
> I'm kinda British.
>
> Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with
> regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure.

Oh, sorry, where you referring to British counties (I'm not sure what
the public library system is in Britain for this kind of thing - I'm a
student so have access to university libraries and inter-library loans
through that which aren't expensive at all - maybe even free)? I
generally assume if someone doesn't say what country they're talking
about then they mean the USA - it's usually a pretty safe assumption.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Ray Saintonge
Durova wrote:
> Two words: interlibrary loan.
>
> -Durova
>   

This is in the "Outer Limits" of Sam's complaint.  For someone who can't 
get to his local library to find what is already there the notion of 
interlibrary loans is an unfathomable mystery.

Ec
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:22 AM, Sam Blacketer
>   
>> I've seen that in editing disputes - where one side insists that the 
>> other
>> side's reference isn't actually verifiable because it's not online so they
>> can't verify it. Feel like pointing out we did actually use to be able to
>> check things out before the internet happened you know. However I suspect
>> most of these are fairly tendentious, along the lines of people who tag
>> articles as unreferenced because they don't have inline references but do
>> have a list of books from which all the facts in the article were taken.
>>
>> --
>> Sam Blacketer
>> 


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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread geni
2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton :
> 2009/3/4 geni :
>> 2009/3/4 Durova :
>>> Two words: interlibrary loan.
>>>
>>> -Durova
>>
>> Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and
>> stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have
>> to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example
>> my county does not have a copy of:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F
>
> Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North
> America, please?

I'm kinda British.

Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with
regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure.

-- 
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Thomas Dalton
2009/3/4 geni :
> 2009/3/4 Durova :
>> Two words: interlibrary loan.
>>
>> -Durova
>
> Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and
> stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have
> to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example
> my county does not have a copy of:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F

Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North
America, please?

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread geni
2009/3/4 Durova :
> Two words: interlibrary loan.
>
> -Durova

Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and
stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have
to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example
my county does not have a copy of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F



-- 
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Thomas Dalton
2009/3/4 David Gerard :
> (I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a
> reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an
> *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with
> "{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of
> anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.

You may want to try reverting them in the first instance... If people
edit war with you over it, then go through the appropriate procedures.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Durova
Two words: interlibrary loan.

-Durova

On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:22 AM, Sam Blacketer
wrote:

> On 3/4/09, David Gerard  wrote:
> >
> >
> > (I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a
> > reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an
> > *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with
> > "{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of
> > anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.
>
>
> I've seen that in editing disputes - where one side insists that the other
> side's reference isn't actually verifiable because it's not online so they
> can't verify it. Feel like pointing out we did actually use to be able to
> check things out before the internet happened you know. However I suspect
> most of these are fairly tendentious, along the lines of people who tag
> articles as unreferenced because they don't have inline references but do
> have a list of books from which all the facts in the article were taken.
>
> --
> Sam Blacketer
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-- 
http://durova.blogspot.com/
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Sam Blacketer
On 3/4/09, David Gerard  wrote:
>
>
> (I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a
> reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an
> *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with
> "{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of
> anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.


I've seen that in editing disputes - where one side insists that the other
side's reference isn't actually verifiable because it's not online so they
can't verify it. Feel like pointing out we did actually use to be able to
check things out before the internet happened you know. However I suspect
most of these are fairly tendentious, along the lines of people who tag
articles as unreferenced because they don't have inline references but do
have a list of books from which all the facts in the article were taken.

-- 
Sam Blacketer
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread Carcharoth
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:56 PM, David Gerard  wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7914828.stm
>
> It's an article on how wonderful it is that political movements are
> better documented in their formative stages these days ... but all I
> could think was what a pain it can be researching anything that
> happened before 1995.
>
> After the low-hanging fruit come those of us with books.
>
> (I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a
> reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an
> *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with
> "{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of
> anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.



Carcharoth

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[WikiEN-l] History started in 1995

2009-03-04 Thread David Gerard
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7914828.stm

It's an article on how wonderful it is that political movements are
better documented in their formative stages these days ... but all I
could think was what a pain it can be researching anything that
happened before 1995.

After the low-hanging fruit come those of us with books.

(I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a
reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an
*online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with
"{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of
anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.


- d.

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