Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
(cough) Looked up the price of tuition at a Stateside university lately? It's hardly free. Including interlibrary loans in the bargain is the least they could do in return. On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Charlotte Webb wrote: > On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Carcharoth > wrote: > > > > Just remember "glaucoma" is the best excuse for everything, Carch. > > On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Sam Korn wrote: > > In the unlikely event that my university library didn't have a book > > (it's a copyright library), the charge is £3 (c. 5 Swiss francs, > > according to Google). The request almost invariably goes to the > > British Library. > > Not being a student I didn't bother asking about this at the nearest > university library. There is a small public library much closer but I > think the non-fiction section would fit in the trunk plus back-seat of > my car. Plenty of Danielle Steel however. :/ > > —C.W. > > ___ > WikiEN-l mailing list > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > -- http://durova.blogspot.com/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Carcharoth wrote: > Just remember "glaucoma" is the best excuse for everything, Carch. On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Sam Korn wrote: > In the unlikely event that my university library didn't have a book > (it's a copyright library), the charge is £3 (c. 5 Swiss francs, > according to Google). The request almost invariably goes to the > British Library. Not being a student I didn't bother asking about this at the nearest university library. There is a small public library much closer but I think the non-fiction section would fit in the trunk plus back-seat of my car. Plenty of Danielle Steel however. :/ —C.W. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
Ahem, the below is so off-topic that I intended to send it offlist, really. Me blushes somewhat and, with his list admin hat on, tries to steer the discussion on-topic again. M. On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:48 PM, Michael Bimmler wrote: > On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Sam Korn wrote: > > >> In the unlikely event that my university library didn't have a book >> (it's a copyright library), the charge is £3 (c. 5 Swiss francs, >> according to Google). The request almost invariably goes to the >> British Library. >> >> Next-day ordering can be arranged for £9. > > Heh, I was just looking up fees at my > university-to-be-from-autumn-onwards (my enrolment in Zurich last year > was somewhat a technical matter, as I was immediately granted "leave > of absence" again to pursue two internships)...and inevitably the fees > there are at £4 and £10 respectively. I guess light blue beats dark > blue in terms of fees by one pound ;-) > > Best, > Michael > -- > Michael Bimmler > mbimm...@gmail.com > -- Michael Bimmler mbimm...@gmail.com ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Sam Korn wrote: > In the unlikely event that my university library didn't have a book > (it's a copyright library), the charge is £3 (c. 5 Swiss francs, > according to Google). The request almost invariably goes to the > British Library. > > Next-day ordering can be arranged for £9. Heh, I was just looking up fees at my university-to-be-from-autumn-onwards (my enrolment in Zurich last year was somewhat a technical matter, as I was immediately granted "leave of absence" again to pursue two internships)...and inevitably the fees there are at £4 and £10 respectively. I guess light blue beats dark blue in terms of fees by one pound ;-) Best, Michael -- Michael Bimmler mbimm...@gmail.com ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Michael Bimmler wrote: > On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:31 AM, phoebe ayers wrote: > >> Interlibrary loans at your university (or public library) are not free >> at all. They are just free for *you*, because your university picks up >> the tab for you. The average cost of an item borrowed through ILL at a >> typical mid-size university is between $20-$30 per item. (google: >> "average cost interlibrary loan", find lots of studies to this >> effect). This, however, is part of the cost of doing research. > > That's interesting...mind telling my resident University of Zurich > librarians that bit, should you ever meet them at a conference? > I currently get charged (and yes, the figures are the same nevermind > whether I use it as member of the public or as enrolled student or as > faculty member) > > 7 Swiss francs for books from other libraries in the > German-part-of-Switzerland university libraries network > 10 Swiss francs for books from the rest of Switzerland > 20 Swiss francs for books from Europe minus Great Britain > 35 Swiss francs for books from Great Britain > 45 Swiss francs for books from the United States > "depending on how much it actually cost *us* " for books from all the > other countries > > Would love to hear some more experiences on this: Is it common in the > US / UK for academic libraries not to charge at all for ILLs? Then I'm > ever so slightly envious... In the unlikely event that my university library didn't have a book (it's a copyright library), the charge is £3 (c. 5 Swiss francs, according to Google). The request almost invariably goes to the British Library. Next-day ordering can be arranged for £9. Sam -- Sam PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:31 AM, phoebe ayers wrote: > Interlibrary loans at your university (or public library) are not free > at all. They are just free for *you*, because your university picks up > the tab for you. The average cost of an item borrowed through ILL at a > typical mid-size university is between $20-$30 per item. (google: > "average cost interlibrary loan", find lots of studies to this > effect). This, however, is part of the cost of doing research. That's interesting...mind telling my resident University of Zurich librarians that bit, should you ever meet them at a conference? I currently get charged (and yes, the figures are the same nevermind whether I use it as member of the public or as enrolled student or as faculty member) 7 Swiss francs for books from other libraries in the German-part-of-Switzerland university libraries network 10 Swiss francs for books from the rest of Switzerland 20 Swiss francs for books from Europe minus Great Britain 35 Swiss francs for books from Great Britain 45 Swiss francs for books from the United States "depending on how much it actually cost *us* " for books from all the other countries Would love to hear some more experiences on this: Is it common in the US / UK for academic libraries not to charge at all for ILLs? Then I'm ever so slightly envious... Michael -- Michael Bimmler mbimm...@gmail.com ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Oldak Quill wrote:
> 2009/3/4 Durova :
>> Two words: interlibrary loan.
>>
>> -Durova
>
> That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from
> large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line
> resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens
> of vast libraries a bus ride away.
>
> Is there a page on Wikipedia where one user (a rural user, let's
> presume), can ask for an offline reference to be checked ("can you
> check this page of this book for this statement/fact")? If not, might
> it be a useful service to offer?
>
> I, for example, live in London and have easy access to a number of
> large university libraries and the British Library (if the resource is
> especially obscure). It would also be possible to scan in the relevant
> page of a PD/uncopyrighted book, as proof of the reference, for
> example.
Oldak et al,
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange,
which appears to still be going on. What you talk about could possibly
be added into this service?
-- Phoebe
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Carcharoth wrote: > I got as far as checking one Wikipedia article and finding that it was > heavily referenced to the book I had, which made some sort of sense, > but as for actually comparing the refs and article content to the book > itself, that taks defeated me. This may be a big part of the problem. Ctrl-F doesn't work on paper. Indexes can only do so much. No blue words to grab your attention, etc. > But it is a task that both needs doing and there needs to be a way to > record that x number of people have checked any particular reference > and agreed with it, regardless of whether it is offline or online. We could call it FlaggedRefs. —C.W. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Oldak Quill wrote:
> That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from
> large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line
> resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens
> of vast libraries a bus ride away.
>
> Is there a page on Wikipedia where one user (a rural user, let's
> presume), can ask for an offline reference to be checked ("can you
> check this page of this book for this statement/fact")? If not, might
> it be a useful service to offer?
>
> I, for example, live in London and have easy access to a number of
> large university libraries and the British Library (if the resource is
> especially obscure). It would also be possible to scan in the relevant
> page of a PD/uncopyrighted book, as proof of the reference, for
> example.
One could host their own "fair use" version of wikisource. This would
be at their own legal peril of course. Make it clear that you're not
affiliated with wikipedia, in fact don't even use the word "wiki". How
about "BookTube", is that taken, hmm...
Google Books has been incredibly useful for me but it does not take
submissions or requests.
—C.W.
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Carcharoth wrote: > Returning to an issue weeks later when the book has arrived and when > it has dropped off people's watchlists (if they keep them tidy) can > have its advantages, though. Unless the article got deleted, of > course. Well if you've finally got the sources in the palm of your hand you have no reliance on the article's previous incarnation. On the other hand it's nicer to be able to measure how much you improved something. —C.W. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Ray Saintonge wrote: > The glasses are interesting, but I note that they have a 60 degree field > of view and a resolution of 320 x 240. I would conclude from that that > in order to get a 3" by 2" piece of text at 100 d.p.i. one would need to > keep one's face only two inches from the desired text. :-) "But Sir, if you need to look that closely to read the text, why don't you take your sunglasses off?" All you need now is the pen with the memory wipe flash thingy. Yes, MIB II was on TV tonight. Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Phil Nash wrote: > Oldak Quill wrote: >>> 2009/3/4 Durova : Two words: interlibrary loan. -Durova >>> >>> That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from >>> large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line >>> resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens >>> of vast libraries a bus ride away. > > To my eternal regret, I watched my local news programme the other night, to > find that a book warehouse in Bristol had closed down and rather than skip > or burn its contents, the public had been invited to come along and help > themselves. If I'd been aware of it, I would have been there, because it > appears that about 250,000 books were available. By the time the TV crew > got there, there was very little left. Shame. There should be a way of > finding out about these things, and perhaps some sort of "give us your old > books" drive would be worth trying. I picked up a couple of big biographies while rummaging through some charity shops. They now sit on a bookshelf making me feel guilty that I haven't done anything with them. I got as far as checking one Wikipedia article and finding that it was heavily referenced to the book I had, which made some sort of sense, but as for actually comparing the refs and article content to the book itself, that taks defeated me. But it is a task that both needs doing and there needs to be a way to record that x number of people have checked any particular reference and agreed with it, regardless of whether it is offline or online. Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
2009/3/5 phoebe ayers : > and a decent bibliography on any topic may be one of the greatest > services Wikipedia provides in a few years. It's one of the greatest services we provide *now*. Even when the article prose has been turned into querulous grey mush, all but unreadable and uneditable between the text creaking tortured beneath a crippling weight of leechlike subclauses and the tags nailing the subclauses to its flesh, people LOVE the reference lists. They're perfect for further reading, or writing a non-sucky version of the article yourself. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote: > 2009/3/4 geni : >> 2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton : >>> 2009/3/4 geni : Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example my county does not have a copy of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F >>> >>> Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North >>> America, please? >> >> I'm kinda British. >> >> Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with >> regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure. > > Oh, sorry, where you referring to British counties (I'm not sure what > the public library system is in Britain for this kind of thing - I'm a > student so have access to university libraries and inter-library loans > through that which aren't expensive at all - maybe even free)? I > generally assume if someone doesn't say what country they're talking > about then they mean the USA - it's usually a pretty safe assumption. Interlibrary loans at your university (or public library) are not free at all. They are just free for *you*, because your university picks up the tab for you. The average cost of an item borrowed through ILL at a typical mid-size university is between $20-$30 per item. (google: "average cost interlibrary loan", find lots of studies to this effect). This, however, is part of the cost of doing research. Re: print accessibility: a good rule of thumb about whether something is easy to get or not is whether the item being cited is widely held at many libraries or not (see: http://worldcat.org, though this isn't anything like complete outside North America). I favor printed books that are held by many places over obscure works that are only at one or two whenever possible. Of course, sometimes this isn't possible, and a decent bibliography on any topic may be one of the greatest services Wikipedia provides in a few years. We should strive to cite it all: print works, online works, anything we can get our hands on. -- Phoebe, one of your resident grumpy librarians ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
2009/3/5 Ray Saintonge : > The glasses are interesting, but I note that they have a 60 degree field > of view and a resolution of 320 x 240. I would conclude from that that > in order to get a 3" by 2" piece of text at 100 d.p.i. one would need to > keep one's face only two inches from the desired text. :-) I've seen others adertised with 1.3MP cameras. No doubt up to the finest digital photographic standards 2002 could offer. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
Ray Saintonge wrote: >> Phil Nash wrote: >>> Oldak Quill wrote: >>> > 2009/3/4 Durova: > >> Two words: interlibrary loan. >> > That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away > from large book repositories, with little capacity to check > off-line resources, while other users live in metropolitan > centres with dozens of vast libraries a bus ride away. > >>> To my eternal regret, I watched my local news programme the other >>> night, to find that a book warehouse in Bristol had closed down and >>> rather than skip or burn its contents, the public had been invited >>> to come along and help themselves. If I'd been aware of it, I would >>> have been there, because it appears that about 250,000 books were >>> available. By the time the TV crew got there, there was very >>> little left. Shame. There should be a way of finding out about >>> these things, and perhaps some sort of "give us your old books" >>> drive would be worth trying. >> >> The simple fact that 250,000 books should go so quickly shows that an >> interest in the product is still there. >> >> Ec That would be great, if we had any confidence or hope that such incidents would result in improved sourcing or even new articles; but we can't be that sure. I could easily have found even fifty books there to replace those I've lost over the years that even libraries don't have any more, and that could have fuelled my editing for the rest of my life. So, a couple of months, then. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
David Gerard wrote: > 2009/3/4 geni : > >> Getting access to existing collections and permission to make copies >> of them (county archives will generaly photocopy stuff for you but >> they won't let you point a camera at the stuff) is a more significant >> issue at this point. >> > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sun-Glasses-Camera-with-2GB-Flash-Memory-+Micro-SD-Slot_W0QQitemZ150327823289QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090220?IMSfp=TL090220122003r5179 > > Now to work out how to make it a tax deduction! > > I think that the North American standard is to have coin-operated photocopiers at strategic places. This leaves staff only needing to copy the most valuable pieces. The glasses are interesting, but I note that they have a 60 degree field of view and a resolution of 320 x 240. I would conclude from that that in order to get a 3" by 2" piece of text at 100 d.p.i. one would need to keep one's face only two inches from the desired text. :-) Ec ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
Phil Nash wrote: > Oldak Quill wrote: > >>> 2009/3/4 Durova: >>> Two words: interlibrary loan. >>> That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from >>> large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line >>> resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens >>> of vast libraries a bus ride away. >>> > To my eternal regret, I watched my local news programme the other night, to > find that a book warehouse in Bristol had closed down and rather than skip > or burn its contents, the public had been invited to come along and help > themselves. If I'd been aware of it, I would have been there, because it > appears that about 250,000 books were available. By the time the TV crew > got there, there was very little left. Shame. There should be a way of > finding out about these things, and perhaps some sort of "give us your old > books" drive would be worth trying. The simple fact that 250,000 books should go so quickly shows that an interest in the product is still there. Ec ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
Thomas Dalton wrote: > 2009/3/4 Ray Saintonge: > >> It confuses me when access to British democracy depends on paying "only" >> $2.95 to an American supplier. >> > Could you explain that reference? > The article was about a movement to improve democracy in the UK, but the most easily accessible article was from an American newspaper for which one would pay $2.95. That strikes me as odd. Ec ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
David Gerard wrote:
> (I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a
> reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an
> *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with
> "{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of
> anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.
>
>
> - d.
One editor recently wrote on the WP:BLPN that he'd delete any negative
allegation in a BLP that isn't verifiable with a free online reference,
arguing that such a practice is the only way of keeping out libelous
material.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=272047238
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 5:44 PM, geni wrote: > 2009/3/4 David Gerard : >> 2009/3/4 geni : >> >>> Getting access to existing collections and permission to make copies >>> of them (county archives will generaly photocopy stuff for you but >>> they won't let you point a camera at the stuff) is a more significant >>> issue at this point. >> >> >> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sun-Glasses-Camera-with-2GB-Flash-Memory-+Micro-SD-Slot_W0QQitemZ150327823289QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090220?IMSfp=TL090220122003r5179 >> >> Now to work out how to make it a tax deduction! >> >> >> - d. > > Sneaking in a camera would not be a problem if I felt like doing that > but I have standards. What bugs me is the restriction is so > irrational. > > It's not a matter of protecting the documents. I was allowed to > handle them without wearing gloves, they were fairly robust (19th > century1:500 OS maps. large enough scale that would identify > individual rooms in buildings) and in any case photographing even with > flash (not that I would need to use a flash) would have done less > damage than photocopying. > > It's not a matter of disruption since modern camera can be pretty much > silent where as the microfilm machines people were useing were rather > noisy. > > It may be a matter of control since there are conditions on what you > can do with the photocopies and when a few years back I asked them > about CC release I wasn't able to get a straight answer. > > Annoying. > I think a big part of why so many libraries do this is fear of copyright liability, if they permit patrons to copy materials that are copyrighted. With photocopies that they make or explicitly authorize, the copying can be okayed by their trained people to ensure that it's something where copying is allowed. They probably wouldn't be liable anyway, and the rules they train people with often go well beyond what the law requires, but it's an approach that has been entrenched pretty deeply. Libraries and archives have a lot of practices that have not been updated to account for the realities of the post-Internet world and the growing level of copyright awareness and activism on the part of patrons. -Sage (User:Ragesoss) ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
2009/3/4 David Gerard : > 2009/3/4 geni : > >> Getting access to existing collections and permission to make copies >> of them (county archives will generaly photocopy stuff for you but >> they won't let you point a camera at the stuff) is a more significant >> issue at this point. > > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sun-Glasses-Camera-with-2GB-Flash-Memory-+Micro-SD-Slot_W0QQitemZ150327823289QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090220?IMSfp=TL090220122003r5179 > > Now to work out how to make it a tax deduction! > > > - d. Sneaking in a camera would not be a problem if I felt like doing that but I have standards. What bugs me is the restriction is so irrational. It's not a matter of protecting the documents. I was allowed to handle them without wearing gloves, they were fairly robust (19th century1:500 OS maps. large enough scale that would identify individual rooms in buildings) and in any case photographing even with flash (not that I would need to use a flash) would have done less damage than photocopying. It's not a matter of disruption since modern camera can be pretty much silent where as the microfilm machines people were useing were rather noisy. It may be a matter of control since there are conditions on what you can do with the photocopies and when a few years back I asked them about CC release I wasn't able to get a straight answer. Annoying. -- geni ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
2009/3/4 geni : > Getting access to existing collections and permission to make copies > of them (county archives will generaly photocopy stuff for you but > they won't let you point a camera at the stuff) is a more significant > issue at this point. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sun-Glasses-Camera-with-2GB-Flash-Memory-+Micro-SD-Slot_W0QQitemZ150327823289QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090220?IMSfp=TL090220122003r5179 Now to work out how to make it a tax deduction! - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
2009/3/4 Phil Nash : > There should be a way of > finding out about these things, and perhaps some sort of "give us your old > books" drive would be worth trying. Neither the WMF nor chapters are really in a position to store large numbers of books and for the most part current library services do the job well enough. Getting access to existing collections and permission to make copies of them (county archives will generaly photocopy stuff for you but they won't let you point a camera at the stuff) is a more significant issue at this point. -- geni ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Mar 4, 2009, at 1:28 PM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote: > The quick answer is yes. I recall running acrost it a few years > ago. I > think I may have even added my own name for something or other. I > have a rather > large library (for an individual) in my house. > > The problem is, I can't quite recall what the name of that page > was. Maybe > it will come to me later today when I'm not busy trying to patch my > roof ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Fact_and_Reference_Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange Perhaps? ... .. . ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
The quick answer is yes. I recall running acrost it a few years ago. I
think I may have even added my own name for something or other. I have a
rather
large library (for an individual) in my house.
The problem is, I can't quite recall what the name of that page was. Maybe
it will come to me later today when I'm not busy trying to patch my roof ;)
Will Johnson
In a message dated 3/4/2009 12:56:25 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
oldakqu...@gmail.com writes:
Is there a page on Wikipedia where one user (a rural user, let's
presume), can ask for an offline reference to be checked ("can you
check this page of this book for this statement/fact")? If not, might
it be a useful service to offer?
**Need a job? Find employment help in your area.
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp0005)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
Oldak Quill wrote: >> 2009/3/4 Durova : >>> Two words: interlibrary loan. >>> >>> -Durova >> >> That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from >> large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line >> resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens >> of vast libraries a bus ride away. To my eternal regret, I watched my local news programme the other night, to find that a book warehouse in Bristol had closed down and rather than skip or burn its contents, the public had been invited to come along and help themselves. If I'd been aware of it, I would have been there, because it appears that about 250,000 books were available. By the time the TV crew got there, there was very little left. Shame. There should be a way of finding out about these things, and perhaps some sort of "give us your old books" drive would be worth trying. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
That would be brilliant. Great idea!
Fwiw, I have a query like that for anyone who has access to the local
records of Roubaix, France. Trying to find the birth and/or death dates for
Jean Desbouvrie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Desbouvrie
Possible April Fool's FA here; small topic. The available sources provide
limited information about his lifespan.
-Durova
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Oldak Quill wrote:
> 2009/3/4 Durova :
> > Two words: interlibrary loan.
> >
> > -Durova
>
> That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from
> large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line
> resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens
> of vast libraries a bus ride away.
>
> Is there a page on Wikipedia where one user (a rural user, let's
> presume), can ask for an offline reference to be checked ("can you
> check this page of this book for this statement/fact")? If not, might
> it be a useful service to offer?
>
> I, for example, live in London and have easy access to a number of
> large university libraries and the British Library (if the resource is
> especially obscure). It would also be possible to scan in the relevant
> page of a PD/uncopyrighted book, as proof of the reference, for
> example.
>
> --
> Oldak Quill (oldakqu...@gmail.com)
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
2009/3/4 Durova :
> Two words: interlibrary loan.
>
> -Durova
That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from
large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line
resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens
of vast libraries a bus ride away.
Is there a page on Wikipedia where one user (a rural user, let's
presume), can ask for an offline reference to be checked ("can you
check this page of this book for this statement/fact")? If not, might
it be a useful service to offer?
I, for example, live in London and have easy access to a number of
large university libraries and the British Library (if the resource is
especially obscure). It would also be possible to scan in the relevant
page of a PD/uncopyrighted book, as proof of the reference, for
example.
--
Oldak Quill (oldakqu...@gmail.com)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
2009/3/4 Ray Saintonge : > It confuses me when access to British democracy depends on paying "only" > $2.95 to an American supplier. Could you explain that reference? ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
David Gerard wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7914828.stm > > It's an article on how wonderful it is that political movements are > better documented in their formative stages these days ... but all I > could think was what a pain it can be researching anything that > happened before 1995. > > After the low-hanging fruit come those of us with books. > > But it was the BBC that threw out all those early episodes of "Dr. Who." It confuses me when access to British democracy depends on paying "only" $2.95 to an American supplier. It makes me wonder how many of us have grasped the enormity of our task. Ec ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
The time frame for the recent discussion had already been set by the sockpuppeteer at two months. Usually I propose about six weeks. -Durova On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 11:01 AM, David Goodman wrote: > I worked for many years running (among other things) an interlibrary > loan system. Any librarian in at least the US who says that a free or > inexpensive copy is not available for anything other than a rare book > or an expensive art or reference book is not doing their job right. > > The main problem with the system with respect to Wikipedia is that > most libraries work very slowly, so it can take some weeks--and > therefore cannot be used in a Wikipedia debate, which is typically > closed in a few days (or hours)., > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Durova wrote: > > Good replies. > > > > Usually in practice that generates one of two responses: > > > > *Either the editor requests an interlibrary loan (or finds someone > willing > > and able). > > *Or else the editor evades the suggestion and continues disputing on > other > > points. > > > > In practice, it's an effective way to distinguish who's serious about the > > project and who isn't. I suggested interlibrary loan at a talk page the > > other day and go an uncooperative response. > > > > Lo and behold, there had previously been a conduct RFC and a positive > > checkuser result for disruption at that article. A new checkuser came in > > positive also. Today someone got blocked for a month. > > > > -Durova > > > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Thomas Dalton >wrote: > > > >> 2009/3/4 geni : > >> > 2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton : > >> >> 2009/3/4 geni : > >> >>> Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed > and > >> >>> stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you > have > >> >>> to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For > example > >> >>> my county does not have a copy of: > >> >>> > >> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F > >> >> > >> >> Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North > >> >> America, please? > >> > > >> > I'm kinda British. > >> > > >> > Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with > >> > regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure. > >> > >> Oh, sorry, where you referring to British counties (I'm not sure what > >> the public library system is in Britain for this kind of thing - I'm a > >> student so have access to university libraries and inter-library loans > >> through that which aren't expensive at all - maybe even free)? I > >> generally assume if someone doesn't say what country they're talking > >> about then they mean the USA - it's usually a pretty safe assumption. > >> > >> ___ > >> WikiEN-l mailing list > >> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > http://durova.blogspot.com/ > > ___ > > WikiEN-l mailing list > > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > > > > > > -- > David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG > > ___ > WikiEN-l mailing list > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > -- http://durova.blogspot.com/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:01 PM, David Goodman wrote: > I worked for many years running (among other things) an interlibrary > loan system. Any librarian in at least the US who says that a free or > inexpensive copy is not available for anything other than a rare book > or an expensive art or reference book is not doing their job right. > > The main problem with the system with respect to Wikipedia is that > most libraries work very slowly, so it can take some weeks--and > therefore cannot be used in a Wikipedia debate, which is typically > closed in a few days (or hours)., Returning to an issue weeks later when the book has arrived and when it has dropped off people's watchlists (if they keep them tidy) can have its advantages, though. Unless the article got deleted, of course. Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
I worked for many years running (among other things) an interlibrary loan system. Any librarian in at least the US who says that a free or inexpensive copy is not available for anything other than a rare book or an expensive art or reference book is not doing their job right. The main problem with the system with respect to Wikipedia is that most libraries work very slowly, so it can take some weeks--and therefore cannot be used in a Wikipedia debate, which is typically closed in a few days (or hours)., On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Durova wrote: > Good replies. > > Usually in practice that generates one of two responses: > > *Either the editor requests an interlibrary loan (or finds someone willing > and able). > *Or else the editor evades the suggestion and continues disputing on other > points. > > In practice, it's an effective way to distinguish who's serious about the > project and who isn't. I suggested interlibrary loan at a talk page the > other day and go an uncooperative response. > > Lo and behold, there had previously been a conduct RFC and a positive > checkuser result for disruption at that article. A new checkuser came in > positive also. Today someone got blocked for a month. > > -Durova > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote: > >> 2009/3/4 geni : >> > 2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton : >> >> 2009/3/4 geni : >> >>> Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and >> >>> stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have >> >>> to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example >> >>> my county does not have a copy of: >> >>> >> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F >> >> >> >> Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North >> >> America, please? >> > >> > I'm kinda British. >> > >> > Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with >> > regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure. >> >> Oh, sorry, where you referring to British counties (I'm not sure what >> the public library system is in Britain for this kind of thing - I'm a >> student so have access to university libraries and inter-library loans >> through that which aren't expensive at all - maybe even free)? I >> generally assume if someone doesn't say what country they're talking >> about then they mean the USA - it's usually a pretty safe assumption. >> >> ___ >> WikiEN-l mailing list >> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l >> > > > > -- > http://durova.blogspot.com/ > ___ > WikiEN-l mailing list > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > -- David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
Good replies. Usually in practice that generates one of two responses: *Either the editor requests an interlibrary loan (or finds someone willing and able). *Or else the editor evades the suggestion and continues disputing on other points. In practice, it's an effective way to distinguish who's serious about the project and who isn't. I suggested interlibrary loan at a talk page the other day and go an uncooperative response. Lo and behold, there had previously been a conduct RFC and a positive checkuser result for disruption at that article. A new checkuser came in positive also. Today someone got blocked for a month. -Durova On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote: > 2009/3/4 geni : > > 2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton : > >> 2009/3/4 geni : > >>> Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and > >>> stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have > >>> to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example > >>> my county does not have a copy of: > >>> > >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F > >> > >> Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North > >> America, please? > > > > I'm kinda British. > > > > Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with > > regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure. > > Oh, sorry, where you referring to British counties (I'm not sure what > the public library system is in Britain for this kind of thing - I'm a > student so have access to university libraries and inter-library loans > through that which aren't expensive at all - maybe even free)? I > generally assume if someone doesn't say what country they're talking > about then they mean the USA - it's usually a pretty safe assumption. > > ___ > WikiEN-l mailing list > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > -- http://durova.blogspot.com/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
2009/3/4 geni : > 2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton : >> 2009/3/4 geni : >>> Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and >>> stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have >>> to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example >>> my county does not have a copy of: >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F >> >> Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North >> America, please? > > I'm kinda British. > > Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with > regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure. Oh, sorry, where you referring to British counties (I'm not sure what the public library system is in Britain for this kind of thing - I'm a student so have access to university libraries and inter-library loans through that which aren't expensive at all - maybe even free)? I generally assume if someone doesn't say what country they're talking about then they mean the USA - it's usually a pretty safe assumption. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
Durova wrote: > Two words: interlibrary loan. > > -Durova > This is in the "Outer Limits" of Sam's complaint. For someone who can't get to his local library to find what is already there the notion of interlibrary loans is an unfathomable mystery. Ec > On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:22 AM, Sam Blacketer > >> I've seen that in editing disputes - where one side insists that the >> other >> side's reference isn't actually verifiable because it's not online so they >> can't verify it. Feel like pointing out we did actually use to be able to >> check things out before the internet happened you know. However I suspect >> most of these are fairly tendentious, along the lines of people who tag >> articles as unreferenced because they don't have inline references but do >> have a list of books from which all the facts in the article were taken. >> >> -- >> Sam Blacketer >> ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton : > 2009/3/4 geni : >> 2009/3/4 Durova : >>> Two words: interlibrary loan. >>> >>> -Durova >> >> Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and >> stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have >> to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example >> my county does not have a copy of: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F > > Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North > America, please? I'm kinda British. Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure. -- geni ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
2009/3/4 geni : > 2009/3/4 Durova : >> Two words: interlibrary loan. >> >> -Durova > > Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and > stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have > to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example > my county does not have a copy of: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North America, please? ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
2009/3/4 Durova : > Two words: interlibrary loan. > > -Durova Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example my county does not have a copy of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F -- geni ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
2009/3/4 David Gerard :
> (I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a
> reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an
> *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with
> "{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of
> anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.
You may want to try reverting them in the first instance... If people
edit war with you over it, then go through the appropriate procedures.
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
Two words: interlibrary loan.
-Durova
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:22 AM, Sam Blacketer
wrote:
> On 3/4/09, David Gerard wrote:
> >
> >
> > (I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a
> > reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an
> > *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with
> > "{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of
> > anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.
>
>
> I've seen that in editing disputes - where one side insists that the other
> side's reference isn't actually verifiable because it's not online so they
> can't verify it. Feel like pointing out we did actually use to be able to
> check things out before the internet happened you know. However I suspect
> most of these are fairly tendentious, along the lines of people who tag
> articles as unreferenced because they don't have inline references but do
> have a list of books from which all the facts in the article were taken.
>
> --
> Sam Blacketer
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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--
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On 3/4/09, David Gerard wrote:
>
>
> (I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a
> reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an
> *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with
> "{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of
> anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.
I've seen that in editing disputes - where one side insists that the other
side's reference isn't actually verifiable because it's not online so they
can't verify it. Feel like pointing out we did actually use to be able to
check things out before the internet happened you know. However I suspect
most of these are fairly tendentious, along the lines of people who tag
articles as unreferenced because they don't have inline references but do
have a list of books from which all the facts in the article were taken.
--
Sam Blacketer
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Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:56 PM, David Gerard wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7914828.stm
>
> It's an article on how wonderful it is that political movements are
> better documented in their formative stages these days ... but all I
> could think was what a pain it can be researching anything that
> happened before 1995.
>
> After the low-hanging fruit come those of us with books.
>
> (I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a
> reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an
> *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with
> "{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of
> anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.
Carcharoth
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[WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7914828.stm
It's an article on how wonderful it is that political movements are
better documented in their formative stages these days ... but all I
could think was what a pain it can be researching anything that
happened before 1995.
After the low-hanging fruit come those of us with books.
(I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a
reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an
*online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with
"{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of
anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.
- d.
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