subject:"\[WikiEN\-l\] JarlaxleArtemis\/Grawp"

Your standards are far too high. Rules + automatic classification + human
eyes converges on 100%.

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:28 PM, Ian Woollard wrote:

> On 29/12/2008, Brian  wrote:
> > Using logistic regression we achieve 83% precision at 77% recall
> > with our model.* Compared to the rule-based methods that are currently
> > applied*
> > *in Wikipedia, our approach increases the F -Measure performance by 49%
> > while*
> > *being faster at the same time.*
>
> In my experience and reasonably expert knowledge of spam fighting,
> these are not very good statistics. If they had achieved over 99% then
> I would have been impressed, with if they did that with even fewer
> false positives then I would have been thoroughly impressed.
>
> And I don't consider it either-or. We should fight spammers of all
> kinds with all techniques that work.
>
> --
> -Ian Woollard
>
> We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
> imperfect world would be much better.
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-29 Thread Ian Woollard

On 29/12/2008, Brian  wrote:
> Using logistic regression we achieve 83% precision at 77% recall
> with our model.* Compared to the rule-based methods that are currently
> applied*
> *in Wikipedia, our approach increases the F -Measure performance by 49%
> while*
> *being faster at the same time.*

In my experience and reasonably expert knowledge of spam fighting,
these are not very good statistics. If they had achieved over 99% then
I would have been impressed, with if they did that with even fewer
false positives then I would have been thoroughly impressed.

And I don't consider it either-or. We should fight spammers of all
kinds with all techniques that work.

-- 
-Ian Woollard

We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
imperfect world would be much better.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

I would be interested in hearing more about what you are doing. My day job
is as a developer on the Emergent Neural Network Simulation System (
http://grey.colorado.edu/ccnlab/index.php/Main_Page) and I can also provide
insights into feature dimensions from my past experience on automatically
tagging Wikipedia articles with quality (
http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proceedings:BM1). I was thinking
that a non-neural network solution, such as as the Core Vector Machine,
might be more appropriate given the size of the training dataset. But NN is
an interesting idea. Maybe we can converse on wiki-research-l?

Cheers,

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Soxred93  wrote:

> See [[User:Crispy1989]]. ClueBot is being rewritten, so it has an
> artificial neural network now. In other words, it has a brain. This
> enables it to learn about current vandalism strategies, and start
> reverting them without Cobi directly programming in heuristics.
>
> X!
>
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-29 Thread David Gerard

2008/12/30 John Reaves :
> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Soxred93  wrote:

>> See [[User:Crispy1989]]. ClueBot is being rewritten, so it has an
>> artificial neural network now. In other words, it has a brain. This
>> enables it to learn about current vandalism strategies, and start
>> reverting them without Cobi directly programming in heuristics.

> Scary.


Now all we need is one that will cope with [[Category:Cleanup]], then
we can retire entirely to the mailing lists and let our robot friends
write the encyclopedia.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-29 Thread John Reaves

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Soxred93  wrote:

> See [[User:Crispy1989]]. ClueBot is being rewritten, so it has an
> artificial neural network now. In other words, it has a brain. This
> enables it to learn about current vandalism strategies, and start
> reverting them without Cobi directly programming in heuristics.
>
>

Scary.



-- 
John Reaves
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-29 Thread Soxred93

See [[User:Crispy1989]]. ClueBot is being rewritten, so it has an  
artificial neural network now. In other words, it has a brain. This  
enables it to learn about current vandalism strategies, and start  
reverting them without Cobi directly programming in heuristics.

X!

On Dec 29, 2008, at 7:29 PM [Dec 29, 2008 ], Marc Riddell wrote:

> on 12/29/08 7:09 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:
>
>> Marc, your argument does not address the article I posted. In  
>> fact, it
>> contradicts it.
>
> Brian, I wasn't addressing an article. I was addressing a specific  
> problem
> that is sitting across from us right now.
>
> Marc
>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Marc Riddell
>> wrote:
>>
>>> on 12/29/08 6:43 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:
>>>
 Contacting the police and the FBI. It is an uncreative, heavy- 
 handed
>>> measure
 that does not solve the problem. It will not stop this vandal  
 and it will
 not stop future vandals.
>>>
>>> I disagree, Brian. Dealing with him using the computer as the  
>>> mechanism is
>>> playing right into him. The computer is his turf, and the far- 
>>> reaching
>>> exposure is exactly what he's wanting. The computer setting is  
>>> something he
>>> feels he can control - the authorities would be something he  
>>> could not.
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>

 On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Marc Riddell
 wrote:

> on 12/29/08 6:37 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:
>
>> This is preposterous.
>
> What is?
>
> Marc
>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart  
>> 
> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell  wrote:
>>>
>
 Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if  
 one (or
> more)
>>> of
 the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal  
 complaint
> to
>>> the
 police.

 Marc Riddell
>>>
>>> I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk  
>>> about
>>> blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become  
>>> unnecessary once
>>> a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his  
>>> family
>>> were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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>>
>>
>
>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

on 12/29/08 7:09 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:

> Marc, your argument does not address the article I posted. In fact, it
> contradicts it.

Brian, I wasn't addressing an article. I was addressing a specific problem
that is sitting across from us right now.

Marc

> 
> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Marc Riddell
> wrote:
> 
>> on 12/29/08 6:43 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:
>> 
>>> Contacting the police and the FBI. It is an uncreative, heavy-handed
>> measure
>>> that does not solve the problem. It will not stop this vandal and it will
>>> not stop future vandals.
>> 
>> I disagree, Brian. Dealing with him using the computer as the mechanism is
>> playing right into him. The computer is his turf, and the far-reaching
>> exposure is exactly what he's wanting. The computer setting is something he
>> feels he can control - the authorities would be something he could not.
>> 
>> Marc
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Marc Riddell
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 on 12/29/08 6:37 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:
 
> This is preposterous.
 
 What is?
 
 Marc
 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart 
 wrote:
> 
>> On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell  wrote:
>> 
 
>>> Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or
 more)
>> of
>>> the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint
 to
>> the
>>> police.
>>> 
>>> Marc Riddell
>> 
>> I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about
>> blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once
>> a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family
>> were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep
>> 
>> ___
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>> 
> 
> 
 
 
 ___
 WikiEN-l mailing list
 WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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> 
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-29 Thread Wilhelm Schnotz

I hope you do understand that "fixing" the bots is not a simple task.
Is the research you mentioned availible in any way that we can make
use of it in programming?

On 12/29/08, Brian  wrote:
> Marc, your argument does not address the article I posted. In fact, it
> contradicts it. You say it plays into his "turf," but as I pointed out, the
> method pits him against himself.
>
> The future of vandalism bots on Wikipedia is *certainly* machine learning
> techniques. The question is, is the community going to waste their time
> contacting the police, or figuring out what it would take to get the source
> code and some funds from the Foundation?
>
> If I were a determined vandal, you could not stop me with the current bots.
> I consider the vandalism this kid is performing to be trivial. He is not
> even trying that hard. The problem is that the bots that have been put up
> against him are ruled based and he can easily lookup the rules. Vandalism
> and counter-vandalism is an arms race, but it is nowhere near as bad as the
> e-mail spam arms race as there is no financial incentive. Thus, simple
> bayesian techniques that are used for e-mail, and those described in the
> article I posted, will be very effective. The training set is monstrous -
> all of the tagged vandalism in the database. The method automatically
> escalates the arms race and nips each new technique in the bud as soon as it
> surfaces. Beating it will require a new breed of vandals.
>
> I say it again, contacting the police and the FBI is not the solution.
> Fixing the bots is.
>
> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Marc Riddell
> wrote:
>
>> on 12/29/08 6:43 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:
>>
>> > Contacting the police and the FBI. It is an uncreative, heavy-handed
>> measure
>> > that does not solve the problem. It will not stop this vandal and it
>> > will
>> > not stop future vandals.
>>
>> I disagree, Brian. Dealing with him using the computer as the mechanism is
>> playing right into him. The computer is his turf, and the far-reaching
>> exposure is exactly what he's wanting. The computer setting is something
>> he
>> feels he can control - the authorities would be something he could not.
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Marc Riddell
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> on 12/29/08 6:37 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> This is preposterous.
>> >>
>> >> What is?
>> >>
>> >> Marc
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart 
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>>  On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell  wrote:
>> 
>> >>
>> > Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or
>> >> more)
>>  of
>> > the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal
>> > complaint
>> >> to
>>  the
>> > police.
>> >
>> > Marc Riddell
>> 
>>  I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about
>>  blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary
>>  once
>>  a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family
>>  were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep
>> 
>>  ___
>>  WikiEN-l mailing list
>>  WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>  To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>>  https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>> 
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> >> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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>
>
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

Marc, your argument does not address the article I posted. In fact, it
contradicts it. You say it plays into his "turf," but as I pointed out, the
method pits him against himself.

The future of vandalism bots on Wikipedia is *certainly* machine learning
techniques. The question is, is the community going to waste their time
contacting the police, or figuring out what it would take to get the source
code and some funds from the Foundation?

If I were a determined vandal, you could not stop me with the current bots.
I consider the vandalism this kid is performing to be trivial. He is not
even trying that hard. The problem is that the bots that have been put up
against him are ruled based and he can easily lookup the rules. Vandalism
and counter-vandalism is an arms race, but it is nowhere near as bad as the
e-mail spam arms race as there is no financial incentive. Thus, simple
bayesian techniques that are used for e-mail, and those described in the
article I posted, will be very effective. The training set is monstrous -
all of the tagged vandalism in the database. The method automatically
escalates the arms race and nips each new technique in the bud as soon as it
surfaces. Beating it will require a new breed of vandals.

I say it again, contacting the police and the FBI is not the solution.
Fixing the bots is.

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:

> on 12/29/08 6:43 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:
>
> > Contacting the police and the FBI. It is an uncreative, heavy-handed
> measure
> > that does not solve the problem. It will not stop this vandal and it will
> > not stop future vandals.
>
> I disagree, Brian. Dealing with him using the computer as the mechanism is
> playing right into him. The computer is his turf, and the far-reaching
> exposure is exactly what he's wanting. The computer setting is something he
> feels he can control - the authorities would be something he could not.
>
> Marc
>
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Marc Riddell
> > wrote:
> >
> >> on 12/29/08 6:37 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:
> >>
> >>> This is preposterous.
> >>
> >> What is?
> >>
> >> Marc
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart 
> >> wrote:
> >>>
>  On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell  wrote:
> 
> >>
> > Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or
> >> more)
>  of
> > the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint
> >> to
>  the
> > police.
> >
> > Marc Riddell
> 
>  I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about
>  blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once
>  a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family
>  were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep
> 
>  ___
>  WikiEN-l mailing list
>  WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>  To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>  https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

on 12/29/08 6:43 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:

> Contacting the police and the FBI. It is an uncreative, heavy-handed measure
> that does not solve the problem. It will not stop this vandal and it will
> not stop future vandals.

I disagree, Brian. Dealing with him using the computer as the mechanism is
playing right into him. The computer is his turf, and the far-reaching
exposure is exactly what he's wanting. The computer setting is something he
feels he can control - the authorities would be something he could not.

Marc

> 
> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Marc Riddell
> wrote:
> 
>> on 12/29/08 6:37 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:
>> 
>>> This is preposterous.
>> 
>> What is?
>> 
>> Marc
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart 
>> wrote:
>>> 
 On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell  wrote:

>> 
> Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or
>> more)
 of
> the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint
>> to
 the
> police.
> 
> Marc Riddell

 I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about
 blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once
 a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family
 were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep

 ___
 WikiEN-l mailing list
 WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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> 
> 

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

Contacting the police and the FBI. It is an uncreative, heavy-handed measure
that does not solve the problem. It will not stop this vandal and it will
not stop future vandals.

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:

> on 12/29/08 6:37 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:
>
> > This is preposterous.
>
> What is?
>
> Marc
>
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell  wrote:
> >>
> 
> >>> Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or
> more)
> >> of
> >>> the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint
> to
> >> the
> >>> police.
> >>>
> >>> Marc Riddell
> >>
> >> I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about
> >> blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once
> >> a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family
> >> were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep
> >>
> >> ___
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> ___
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

on 12/29/08 6:37 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:

> This is preposterous.

What is?

Marc

> 
> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart  wrote:
> 
>> On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell  wrote:
>> 
 
>>> Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more)
>> of
>>> the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to
>> the
>>> police.
>>> 
>>> Marc Riddell
>> 
>> I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about
>> blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once
>> a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family
>> were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep
>> 
>> ___
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>> 
> 
> 


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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

This is preposterous.

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart  wrote:

> On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell  wrote:
>
> >>
> > Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more)
> of
> > the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to
> the
> > police.
> >
> > Marc Riddell
>
> I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about
> blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once
> a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family
> were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep
>
> ___
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-29 Thread Sarah Ewart

On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell  wrote:

>>
> Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of
> the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the
> police.
>
> Marc Riddell

I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about
blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once
a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family
were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-29 Thread Phil Nash

Brian wrote:
>> By the way, I ask those questions having read the bots user page. It
>> is apparently quite effective,  indicating to me that this user
>> causes minimal disruption.

"minimal" only applies if it doesn't impact *your* watchlist. OK, he's 
fairly quickly detected, blocked and reverted, and protections applied. But, 
you know, what editors should really be doing is creating good content. 
Vandals should not be be allowed to divert resources away from that 
objective, and if they do, they should be stopped. I see no middle position 
here. Those of us who spend our time controlling vandalism, and it is a 
control paradigm, would much rather be creating that good content. Any 
vandal is a diversion from that purpose, and we are much too lenient with 
them. Four levels of warning is too many for obvious vandals, and I start at 
level 2. There is no such thing as AGF for most obvious vandals.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

Potthast, Stein, Gerling. (2008). Automatic Vandalism Detection in
Wikipedia.
http://www.uni-weimar.de/medien/webis/publications/downloads/papers/stein_2008c.pdf

Abstract. We present results of a new approach to detect destructive article
revi-
sions, so-called vandalism, in Wikipedia. Vandalism detection is a one-class
clas-
siﬁcation problem, where vandalism edits are the target to be identiﬁed
among
all revisions. Interestingly, vandalism detection has not been addressed in
the In-
formation Retrieval literature by now. In this paper we discuss the
characteristics
of vandalism as humans recognize it and develop features to render vandalism
detection as a machine learning task. We compiled a large number of
vandalism
edits in a corpus, which allows for the comparison of existing and new
detection
approaches. Using logistic regression we achieve 83% precision at 77% recall
with our model.* Compared to the rule-based methods that are currently
applied*
*in Wikipedia, our approach increases the F -Measure performance by 49%
while*
*being faster at the same time.*



Open the PDF, scan to page 667. This bot outperforms MartinBot, T-850
Robotic Assistant, WerdnaAntiVandalBot, Xenophon, ClueBot,
CounterVandalismBot, PkgBot, MiszaBot, and AntiVandalBot. It outperforms the
best of those (AntiVandalBot) by a very wide margin.

So why are you wasting the ISPs time and the police's time when the best of
the passive technology routes have not been explored? Using machine learning
*you pit the vandals against themselves.  *Every time they perform a
particular kind of vandalism, it can never be performed again because the
bot will recognize it.

Cheers,
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp


> On 29/12/2008, Joe Szilagyi  wrote:
>> Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock
>> out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically
>> point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of
>> JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse
>> page.

on 12/29/08 6:02 PM, Ian Woollard at ian.wooll...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> It probably wouldn't work because of proxies and people that would
> emulate/help him.
> 
> Still, ideas that would affect less people rather than more like that
> are almost certainly IMO the way to go; for example restricting the
> range of characters and checking that the move title consists of words
> in a dictionary before permitting non admins or users with a small
> number of edits to complete a move might be desirable.
> 
Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of
the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the
police.

Marc Riddell


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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

By the way, I ask those questions having read the bots user page. It is
apparently quite effective,  indicating to me that this user causes minimal
disruption.

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Brian  wrote:

> What percentage of his page moves were not picked up automatically by a
> bot?
>
> What percentage of this users vandalism is not picked up by a bot?
>
> Why is the ISP responsible for what he dumps into Wikipedia, rather than
> Wikipedia, as it allows itself to be a dumping ground? The Viacom/Youtube
> lawsuit demonstrates that this is a legal grey area, thus, I see little
> ground on which to punish the entire ip range of the ISP.
>
> Why are machine learning bots that are trained on previous vandalism in
> order to detect new vandalism not being used? They have been developed. Why
> is the Foundation not funding their further development?
>
> I believe the direction of this thread has been all wrong.
>
> Peace,
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Soxred93  wrote:
>
>> The problem with that is that many articles we have would not be
>> found in any dictionary.
>>
>> X!
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2008, at 6:02 PM [Dec 29, 2008 ], Ian Woollard wrote:
>>
>> > On 29/12/2008, Joe Szilagyi  wrote:
>> >> Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock
>> >> out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically
>> >> point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of
>> >> JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse
>> >> page.
>> >
>> > It probably wouldn't work because of proxies and people that would
>> > emulate/help him.
>> >
>> > Still, ideas that would affect less people rather than more like that
>> > are almost certainly IMO the way to go; for example restricting the
>> > range of characters and checking that the move title consists of words
>> > in a dictionary before permitting non admins or users with a small
>> > number of edits to complete a move might be desirable.
>> >
>> >> - Joe
>> >
>> > --
>> > -Ian Woollard
>> >
>> > We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
>> > imperfect world would be much better.
>> >
>> > ___
>> > WikiEN-l mailing list
>> > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
> You have successfully failed!
>



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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

What percentage of his page moves were not picked up automatically by a bot?

What percentage of this users vandalism is not picked up by a bot?

Why is the ISP responsible for what he dumps into Wikipedia, rather than
Wikipedia, as it allows itself to be a dumping ground? The Viacom/Youtube
lawsuit demonstrates that this is a legal grey area, thus, I see little
ground on which to punish the entire ip range of the ISP.

Why are machine learning bots that are trained on previous vandalism in
order to detect new vandalism not being used? They have been developed. Why
is the Foundation not funding their further development?

I believe the direction of this thread has been all wrong.

Peace,

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Soxred93  wrote:

> The problem with that is that many articles we have would not be
> found in any dictionary.
>
> X!
>
> On Dec 29, 2008, at 6:02 PM [Dec 29, 2008 ], Ian Woollard wrote:
>
> > On 29/12/2008, Joe Szilagyi  wrote:
> >> Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock
> >> out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically
> >> point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of
> >> JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse
> >> page.
> >
> > It probably wouldn't work because of proxies and people that would
> > emulate/help him.
> >
> > Still, ideas that would affect less people rather than more like that
> > are almost certainly IMO the way to go; for example restricting the
> > range of characters and checking that the move title consists of words
> > in a dictionary before permitting non admins or users with a small
> > number of edits to complete a move might be desirable.
> >
> >> - Joe
> >
> > --
> > -Ian Woollard
> >
> > We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
> > imperfect world would be much better.
> >
> > ___
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-29 Thread Soxred93

The problem with that is that many articles we have would not be  
found in any dictionary.

X!

On Dec 29, 2008, at 6:02 PM [Dec 29, 2008 ], Ian Woollard wrote:

> On 29/12/2008, Joe Szilagyi  wrote:
>> Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock
>> out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically
>> point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of
>> JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse
>> page.
>
> It probably wouldn't work because of proxies and people that would
> emulate/help him.
>
> Still, ideas that would affect less people rather than more like that
> are almost certainly IMO the way to go; for example restricting the
> range of characters and checking that the move title consists of words
> in a dictionary before permitting non admins or users with a small
> number of edits to complete a move might be desirable.
>
>> - Joe
>
> -- 
> -Ian Woollard
>
> We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
> imperfect world would be much better.
>
> ___
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-29 Thread Ian Woollard

On 29/12/2008, Joe Szilagyi  wrote:
> Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock
> out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically
> point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of
> JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse
> page.

It probably wouldn't work because of proxies and people that would
emulate/help him.

Still, ideas that would affect less people rather than more like that
are almost certainly IMO the way to go; for example restricting the
range of characters and checking that the move title consists of words
in a dictionary before permitting non admins or users with a small
number of edits to complete a move might be desirable.

> - Joe

-- 
-Ian Woollard

We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
imperfect world would be much better.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-29 Thread Wilhelm Schnotz

Is he worth causing that much disruption to our users?

On 12/29/08, Joe Szilagyi  wrote:
> If Verizon or whatever Incompetant Inc. ISP he uses is unlikely to do
> anything, why not just fix it from a technical end?
>
> Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock
> out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically
> point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of
> JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse
> page.
>
> If the technical means to do this doesn't exist yet, why doesn't
> someone create it?
>
> - Joe
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-29 Thread Joe Szilagyi

If Verizon or whatever Incompetant Inc. ISP he uses is unlikely to do
anything, why not just fix it from a technical end?

Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock
out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically
point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of
JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse
page.

If the technical means to do this doesn't exist yet, why doesn't
someone create it?

- Joe

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-26 Thread George Herbert

Not going to put this on-wiki, but...

I may have a back channel to Verizon abuse people via the spam fighter
community.

I am peripherally aware of the details here, but I'm not the right person to
talk to Verizon about them.

If I can get a contact, who should I point them at for the detailed
conversation including names, addresses, edit histories, etc?

Thanks.

-george

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 9:05 AM, Martijn Hoekstra  wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 4:45 AM, Christopher Grant
>  wrote:
> >  X! you missed out adminbots(e.g. Miza's).
> >
> > - Chris
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 12:03 PM, David Gerard 
> wrote:
> >
> >> 2008/12/26 John Reaves :
> >>
> >> > So it comes down to whether or not we care more about a positive PR
> image
> >> or
> >> > being able to maintain an encyclopedia without disruption and
> harassment
> >> > from one of the biggest idiots we've ever had?  I know what my choice
> >> would
> >> > be...
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm describing how this has been done in the past and why. PR isn't
> >> the reason, it's a consideration.
> >>
> >> I predict that such an ISP-wide block as we're describing here would
> >> go block, unblock, block, unblock x10, stop at unblock, arbitration,
> >> trout slaps and desysops all round for idiot blocking and wheel
> >> warring. Though it might shake loose the lower decile of admins.
> >> (That's an unintended side benefit, not a reason to do it either.)
> >>
> >> The reason the wheel of fat would stop at "unblock" is that the secret
> >> of blocks on Wikipedia is: they're just minor speed humps; you can't
> >> keep someone from editing if they *really* want to without shutting
> >> down the wiki. That's what "soft security" means and that's why we use
> >> it. Would your average reader or even editor know who the hell Grawp
> >> is in this context? No, they wouldn't. (They wouldn't because quite a
> >> few people work hard to make it that way, but nevertheless.)
> >>
> >> There's no point disrupting editing for large chunks of Verizon
> >> because this would just cause Grawp to go elsewhere. We're talking
> >> about someone who's clearly pathologically dedicated to this task.
> >>
> >> There is no cure for vandalism on Wikipedia while humans are humans.
> >>
> >>
> >> - d.
> >>
> >> ___
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
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> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
> I requested feedback on [[Wikipedia:Administrators'
> noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement]] with
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FArbitration_enforcement&diff=260192750&oldid=260186203
>
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-- 
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george.herb...@gmail.com
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-26 Thread Martijn Hoekstra

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 4:45 AM, Christopher Grant
 wrote:
>  X! you missed out adminbots(e.g. Miza's).
>
> - Chris
>
> On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 12:03 PM, David Gerard  wrote:
>
>> 2008/12/26 John Reaves :
>>
>> > So it comes down to whether or not we care more about a positive PR image
>> or
>> > being able to maintain an encyclopedia without disruption and harassment
>> > from one of the biggest idiots we've ever had?  I know what my choice
>> would
>> > be...
>>
>>
>> I'm describing how this has been done in the past and why. PR isn't
>> the reason, it's a consideration.
>>
>> I predict that such an ISP-wide block as we're describing here would
>> go block, unblock, block, unblock x10, stop at unblock, arbitration,
>> trout slaps and desysops all round for idiot blocking and wheel
>> warring. Though it might shake loose the lower decile of admins.
>> (That's an unintended side benefit, not a reason to do it either.)
>>
>> The reason the wheel of fat would stop at "unblock" is that the secret
>> of blocks on Wikipedia is: they're just minor speed humps; you can't
>> keep someone from editing if they *really* want to without shutting
>> down the wiki. That's what "soft security" means and that's why we use
>> it. Would your average reader or even editor know who the hell Grawp
>> is in this context? No, they wouldn't. (They wouldn't because quite a
>> few people work hard to make it that way, but nevertheless.)
>>
>> There's no point disrupting editing for large chunks of Verizon
>> because this would just cause Grawp to go elsewhere. We're talking
>> about someone who's clearly pathologically dedicated to this task.
>>
>> There is no cure for vandalism on Wikipedia while humans are humans.
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>
>> ___
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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I requested feedback on [[Wikipedia:Administrators'
noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement]] with
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FArbitration_enforcement&diff=260192750&oldid=260186203

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-25 Thread Christopher Grant

 X! you missed out adminbots(e.g. Miza's).

- Chris

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 12:03 PM, David Gerard  wrote:

> 2008/12/26 John Reaves :
>
> > So it comes down to whether or not we care more about a positive PR image
> or
> > being able to maintain an encyclopedia without disruption and harassment
> > from one of the biggest idiots we've ever had?  I know what my choice
> would
> > be...
>
>
> I'm describing how this has been done in the past and why. PR isn't
> the reason, it's a consideration.
>
> I predict that such an ISP-wide block as we're describing here would
> go block, unblock, block, unblock x10, stop at unblock, arbitration,
> trout slaps and desysops all round for idiot blocking and wheel
> warring. Though it might shake loose the lower decile of admins.
> (That's an unintended side benefit, not a reason to do it either.)
>
> The reason the wheel of fat would stop at "unblock" is that the secret
> of blocks on Wikipedia is: they're just minor speed humps; you can't
> keep someone from editing if they *really* want to without shutting
> down the wiki. That's what "soft security" means and that's why we use
> it. Would your average reader or even editor know who the hell Grawp
> is in this context? No, they wouldn't. (They wouldn't because quite a
> few people work hard to make it that way, but nevertheless.)
>
> There's no point disrupting editing for large chunks of Verizon
> because this would just cause Grawp to go elsewhere. We're talking
> about someone who's clearly pathologically dedicated to this task.
>
> There is no cure for vandalism on Wikipedia while humans are humans.
>
>
> - d.
>
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-25 Thread David Gerard

2008/12/26 John Reaves :

> So it comes down to whether or not we care more about a positive PR image or
> being able to maintain an encyclopedia without disruption and harassment
> from one of the biggest idiots we've ever had?  I know what my choice would
> be...


I'm describing how this has been done in the past and why. PR isn't
the reason, it's a consideration.

I predict that such an ISP-wide block as we're describing here would
go block, unblock, block, unblock x10, stop at unblock, arbitration,
trout slaps and desysops all round for idiot blocking and wheel
warring. Though it might shake loose the lower decile of admins.
(That's an unintended side benefit, not a reason to do it either.)

The reason the wheel of fat would stop at "unblock" is that the secret
of blocks on Wikipedia is: they're just minor speed humps; you can't
keep someone from editing if they *really* want to without shutting
down the wiki. That's what "soft security" means and that's why we use
it. Would your average reader or even editor know who the hell Grawp
is in this context? No, they wouldn't. (They wouldn't because quite a
few people work hard to make it that way, but nevertheless.)

There's no point disrupting editing for large chunks of Verizon
because this would just cause Grawp to go elsewhere. We're talking
about someone who's clearly pathologically dedicated to this task.

There is no cure for vandalism on Wikipedia while humans are humans.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-25 Thread Soxred93

So far, we have:

*Huggle
*ClueBot
*Notices on IRC
*Spam blacklist
*Abuse filter (in the future)

  to stop him. None of these have worked. Unless we block all of  
Verizon, or use a hack to start blocking the XFF header, Grawp will  
continue. I'm sure that the sysadmins would be able to find some way  
to block Grawp's XFF header.

X!

On Dec 25, 2008, at 8:23 PM [Dec 25, 2008 ], Ian Woollard wrote:

> I cannot deny that it would likely to be effective; but it would
> also cause ill-will and bad publicity towards the wikipedia.
>
> The wikipedia is accessed by a large fraction of their thousands of
> customers every day, people that we're really supposed to be
> helping; and they've done nothing worth getting blocked over.
>
> So it really would be a sledge hammer to crack a nut, and the guy is
> irritating, but he's not impacting nearly as many people as would be
> hurt by a block like that.
>
> I think the wikipedia is better off coming up with general strategies
> that make his kind of vandalism pointless or easier to undo or
> strategies to permit
> blocking of just the active vandals.
>
> On 25/12/2008, Martijn Hoekstra  wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Ian Woollard  
>> 
>> wrote:
>>> On 25/12/2008, Soxred93  wrote:
 If we rangeblock all of Verizon, we're giving Grawp exactly what he
 wants. He wants to cause disruption, and causing a huge  
 rangeblock is
 success for him.
>>>
>>> It doesn't matter what he does or doesn't want. It only matters what
>>> the wikipedia wants. Probably rangeblocking Verizon would be bad for
>>> the Wikipedia's reputation ("Anyone can edit except for Verizon
>>> users!"), Verizon would have to be incredibly unresponsive and  
>>> acting
>>> in incredibly bad faith to have to/really want to do that, but it
>>> remains a possibility.
>>>
>>> There might be a better case though for automatically, temporarily,
>>> black holing or edit blocking or simply delaying the edits (until a
>>> human can hand check them) of individual IPs/accounts from  
>>> anywhere on
>>> the internet that engage in certain broad patterns of activity.
>>>
>>> The important thing is to minimise the length/number of times  
>>> that any
>>> particular IP is able to engage in Grawp-like or other stereotypic
>>> behaviour. While he/she/they would be able to soon find another  
>>> IP, it
>>> significantly mitigates the damage that can be done, and  
>>> minimises the
>>> cleanup.
>>>
 X!
>>>
>>> --
>>> -Ian Woollard
>>>
>>> We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
>>> imperfect world would be much better.
>>>
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>> ]
>> It seems hard to believe that Verizon would let such a rangeblock sit
>> for long. I think the only message we need to get over to them is
>> "dude, we're not kidding. We don't want to rangeblock your entire  
>> ISP,
>> but this one person who has an internet account with you is  
>> causing us
>> major headaches. Because of your dynamic IP adresses, we are  
>> unable to
>> deal with it on an individual level. We are open to suggestions on  
>> how
>> we can solve the problem, but if you are really not willing to  
>> help us
>> out here, we simply have no other choise but to block every IP adress
>> in your range from editing, as much as we'd hate to do that"
>>
>> I can't believe that bigwigs at Verizon would be willing to let that
>> happen, the question is just how to get through to the right people
>> that can do something about it.
>
> -- 
> -Ian Woollard
>
> We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
> imperfect world would be much better.
>
> ___
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-25 Thread Ian Woollard

I cannot deny that it would likely to be effective; but it would
also cause ill-will and bad publicity towards the wikipedia.

The wikipedia is accessed by a large fraction of their thousands of
customers every day, people that we're really supposed to be
helping; and they've done nothing worth getting blocked over.

So it really would be a sledge hammer to crack a nut, and the guy is
irritating, but he's not impacting nearly as many people as would be
hurt by a block like that.

I think the wikipedia is better off coming up with general strategies
that make his kind of vandalism pointless or easier to undo or
strategies to permit
blocking of just the active vandals.

On 25/12/2008, Martijn Hoekstra  wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Ian Woollard 
> wrote:
>> On 25/12/2008, Soxred93  wrote:
>>> If we rangeblock all of Verizon, we're giving Grawp exactly what he
>>> wants. He wants to cause disruption, and causing a huge rangeblock is
>>> success for him.
>>
>> It doesn't matter what he does or doesn't want. It only matters what
>> the wikipedia wants. Probably rangeblocking Verizon would be bad for
>> the Wikipedia's reputation ("Anyone can edit except for Verizon
>> users!"), Verizon would have to be incredibly unresponsive and acting
>> in incredibly bad faith to have to/really want to do that, but it
>> remains a possibility.
>>
>> There might be a better case though for automatically, temporarily,
>> black holing or edit blocking or simply delaying the edits (until a
>> human can hand check them) of individual IPs/accounts from anywhere on
>> the internet that engage in certain broad patterns of activity.
>>
>> The important thing is to minimise the length/number of times that any
>> particular IP is able to engage in Grawp-like or other stereotypic
>> behaviour. While he/she/they would be able to soon find another IP, it
>> significantly mitigates the damage that can be done, and minimises the
>> cleanup.
>>
>>> X!
>>
>> --
>> -Ian Woollard
>>
>> We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
>> imperfect world would be much better.
>>
>> ___
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
> ]
> It seems hard to believe that Verizon would let such a rangeblock sit
> for long. I think the only message we need to get over to them is
> "dude, we're not kidding. We don't want to rangeblock your entire ISP,
> but this one person who has an internet account with you is causing us
> major headaches. Because of your dynamic IP adresses, we are unable to
> deal with it on an individual level. We are open to suggestions on how
> we can solve the problem, but if you are really not willing to help us
> out here, we simply have no other choise but to block every IP adress
> in your range from editing, as much as we'd hate to do that"
>
> I can't believe that bigwigs at Verizon would be willing to let that
> happen, the question is just how to get through to the right people
> that can do something about it.

-- 
-Ian Woollard

We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
imperfect world would be much better.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-25 Thread SQL

Martijn Hoekstra wrote:
>
> ]
> It seems hard to believe that Verizon would let such a rangeblock sit
> for long. I think the only message we need to get over to them is
> "dude, we're not kidding. We don't want to rangeblock your entire ISP,
> but this one person who has an internet account with you is causing us
> major headaches. Because of your dynamic IP adresses, we are unable to
> deal with it on an individual level. We are open to suggestions on how
> we can solve the problem, but if you are really not willing to help us
> out here, we simply have no other choise but to block every IP adress
> in your range from editing, as much as we'd hate to do that"
>
> I can't believe that bigwigs at Verizon would be willing to let that
> happen, the question is just how to get through to the right people
> that can do something about it.
>
>
>   
This is commonly a way other services handle(d?) abusive users from 
unresponsive ISP's. E.g. If I start spewing viagra spam to a few million 
guessed e-mails, and my ISP refuses to do anything about it, other 
customers on my ISP will soon find that other SMTP servers will not 
accept messages that originate in my netblock (well, depending on setup, 
but, last time it happened it seemed like 6/10 messages I sent were 
refused). In some peering situations, at least earlier on, this was a 
common sort of scenario as well, when it came to other destructive forms 
of abuse, like Denial of Service, and the like. This approach generally 
gets results very quickly.

This is the only real way to deal with a user like this. Sure, there 
will be a lot of collateral damage, and, there will be some disruption. 
The thing we need to decide for ourselves is -- Is ridding ourself of 
this user worth the disruption it would cause to the website? Also would 
need to keep in mind he will probably get a new ISP (or at least abuse 
from school, etc... Those should be easier to hunt and abusemail however)

As far as the difficulty of blocking him, it would not be too terribly 
hard to make an extension that blocks users from editing by passing a 
regular expression over their hostmask. E.g. /.*\.dsl\.verizon\.net/i or 
whatever the mask for his type of connection is. (This may actually 
allow us to further narrow this approach and reduce collateral, by the way).

Simply placing a block message along the lines of "In order to protect 
our project from a user or handful of users on Verizon DSL, we have 
disabled editing from this netblock, until Verizon takes action on 
ticket # XYZ123.", or something like that.

SQL
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-25 Thread Phil Nash

David Gerard wrote:
>> 2008/12/26 Soxred93 :
>>
>>> Maybe we can set it for only 1 day, but use a JS hack to say that
>>> it's indefinite. That might get the word out to them. :)
>>
>>
>> The idea of blocking a whole ISP is unlikely to fly. I suspect that
>> an admin placing such a block without agreement from the arbcom and
>> the Foundation (cos you *know* they'd get the crap for it) would be
>> (a) quickly reversed (b) given a slap round the head with a trout at
>> the very least.
>>
>> Attention-getting blocks have worked on bodies the size of
>> universities before (I recall two of them, both put into place by a
>> sitting arbitrator who then managed relations with the organisations
>> very closely), but even then it was a very last desperate resort.
>> Throwing our weight around like that would be a PR disaster, no
>> matter how unresponsive Verizon were being.

This is one reason I suggested that it come from Foundation level, to an 
equivalent stratum of responsibility, to head off the PR outfall. If 
negotiations fail, there would be a difficult trade-off between defending 
our position without giving details (per [[WP:DFTT]], [[WP:BEANS]] and 
[[WP:DENY]]), and making our case. Some overview of the damage caused would 
be a must.

However, as an Admin, the integrity of the encyclopedia is more or less my 
first duty, and I don't have a problem about blocking a whole ISP for one 
day if that is the only way of getting their attention.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-25 Thread John Reaves

So it comes down to whether or not we care more about a positive PR image or
being able to maintain an encyclopedia without disruption and harassment
from one of the biggest idiots we've ever had?  I know what my choice would
be...

On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 5:29 PM, David Gerard  wrote:

> 2008/12/26 Soxred93 :
>
> > Maybe we can set it for only 1 day, but use a JS hack to say that
> > it's indefinite. That might get the word out to them. :)
>
>
> The idea of blocking a whole ISP is unlikely to fly. I suspect that an
> admin placing such a block without agreement from the arbcom and the
> Foundation (cos you *know* they'd get the crap for it) would be (a)
> quickly reversed (b) given a slap round the head with a trout at the
> very least.
>
> Attention-getting blocks have worked on bodies the size of
> universities before (I recall two of them, both put into place by a
> sitting arbitrator who then managed relations with the organisations
> very closely), but even then it was a very last desperate resort.
> Throwing our weight around like that would be a PR disaster, no matter
> how unresponsive Verizon were being.
>
>
> - d.
>
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-- 
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-25 Thread John Reaves

Also, we should include a message that tells people to contact the ISP to
get the block fixed.  Thousands of e-mails should get their attention
(although it didn't work for the images of Mohammad issue, hmm).

On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 5:25 PM, Phil Nash wrote:

> Soxred93 wrote:
> >> Maybe we can set it for only 1 day, but use a JS hack to say that
> >> it's indefinite. That might get the word out to them. :)
> >>
> >> X!
>
> What might be better is to email their abuse@ first saying that on a
> certain
> date, none of their customers will be able to edit anonymously, and that
> this will continue, with the blocking period doubling, until they do
> something about *their* customer. I don't know if they have support
> newsgroups, but info to this effect into those NGs will concentrate the
> minds of those affected customers such that they will act in their own
> interests, but ultimately to ours too.
>
> As far as I can see, there is nothing unlawful in this, and it doesn't
> amount to blackmail, because it's not an "unwarranted demand"- it's a
> simple
> declaration of intent; and it's not "with menaces", because restricting
> access to an essentially private website can be done for whatever reason at
> all, capricious or not. Neither is it "with a view to gain or with intent
> to
> cause loss", because that clause specifically directs to economic
> consequences, which would not follow to Verizon should we choose to block
> their anon customers en bloc for temporary periods.
>
> All in all, it's *our* website, and we hold all the cards.
>
>
>
>
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-- 
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-25 Thread David Gerard

2008/12/26 Soxred93 :

> Maybe we can set it for only 1 day, but use a JS hack to say that
> it's indefinite. That might get the word out to them. :)


The idea of blocking a whole ISP is unlikely to fly. I suspect that an
admin placing such a block without agreement from the arbcom and the
Foundation (cos you *know* they'd get the crap for it) would be (a)
quickly reversed (b) given a slap round the head with a trout at the
very least.

Attention-getting blocks have worked on bodies the size of
universities before (I recall two of them, both put into place by a
sitting arbitrator who then managed relations with the organisations
very closely), but even then it was a very last desperate resort.
Throwing our weight around like that would be a PR disaster, no matter
how unresponsive Verizon were being.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-25 Thread Phil Nash

Soxred93 wrote:
>> Maybe we can set it for only 1 day, but use a JS hack to say that
>> it's indefinite. That might get the word out to them. :)
>>
>> X!

What might be better is to email their abuse@ first saying that on a certain 
date, none of their customers will be able to edit anonymously, and that 
this will continue, with the blocking period doubling, until they do 
something about *their* customer. I don't know if they have support 
newsgroups, but info to this effect into those NGs will concentrate the 
minds of those affected customers such that they will act in their own 
interests, but ultimately to ours too.

As far as I can see, there is nothing unlawful in this, and it doesn't 
amount to blackmail, because it's not an "unwarranted demand"- it's a simple 
declaration of intent; and it's not "with menaces", because restricting 
access to an essentially private website can be done for whatever reason at 
all, capricious or not. Neither is it "with a view to gain or with intent to 
cause loss", because that clause specifically directs to economic 
consequences, which would not follow to Verizon should we choose to block 
their anon customers en bloc for temporary periods.

All in all, it's *our* website, and we hold all the cards.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-25 Thread Soxred93

Maybe we can set it for only 1 day, but use a JS hack to say that  
it's indefinite. That might get the word out to them. :)

X!

On Dec 25, 2008, at 5:12 AM [Dec 25, 2008 ], Martijn Hoekstra wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Ian Woollard  
>  wrote:
>> On 25/12/2008, Soxred93  wrote:
>>> If we rangeblock all of Verizon, we're giving Grawp exactly what he
>>> wants. He wants to cause disruption, and causing a huge  
>>> rangeblock is
>>> success for him.
>>
>> It doesn't matter what he does or doesn't want. It only matters what
>> the wikipedia wants. Probably rangeblocking Verizon would be bad for
>> the Wikipedia's reputation ("Anyone can edit except for Verizon
>> users!"), Verizon would have to be incredibly unresponsive and acting
>> in incredibly bad faith to have to/really want to do that, but it
>> remains a possibility.
>>
>> There might be a better case though for automatically, temporarily,
>> black holing or edit blocking or simply delaying the edits (until a
>> human can hand check them) of individual IPs/accounts from  
>> anywhere on
>> the internet that engage in certain broad patterns of activity.
>>
>> The important thing is to minimise the length/number of times that  
>> any
>> particular IP is able to engage in Grawp-like or other stereotypic
>> behaviour. While he/she/they would be able to soon find another  
>> IP, it
>> significantly mitigates the damage that can be done, and minimises  
>> the
>> cleanup.
>>
>>> X!
>>
>> --
>> -Ian Woollard
>>
>> We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
>> imperfect world would be much better.
>>
>> ___
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
> ]
> It seems hard to believe that Verizon would let such a rangeblock sit
> for long. I think the only message we need to get over to them is
> "dude, we're not kidding. We don't want to rangeblock your entire ISP,
> but this one person who has an internet account with you is causing us
> major headaches. Because of your dynamic IP adresses, we are unable to
> deal with it on an individual level. We are open to suggestions on how
> we can solve the problem, but if you are really not willing to help us
> out here, we simply have no other choise but to block every IP adress
> in your range from editing, as much as we'd hate to do that"
>
> I can't believe that bigwigs at Verizon would be willing to let that
> happen, the question is just how to get through to the right people
> that can do something about it.
>
> ___
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-25 Thread Martijn Hoekstra

On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Ian Woollard  wrote:
> On 25/12/2008, Soxred93  wrote:
>> If we rangeblock all of Verizon, we're giving Grawp exactly what he
>> wants. He wants to cause disruption, and causing a huge rangeblock is
>> success for him.
>
> It doesn't matter what he does or doesn't want. It only matters what
> the wikipedia wants. Probably rangeblocking Verizon would be bad for
> the Wikipedia's reputation ("Anyone can edit except for Verizon
> users!"), Verizon would have to be incredibly unresponsive and acting
> in incredibly bad faith to have to/really want to do that, but it
> remains a possibility.
>
> There might be a better case though for automatically, temporarily,
> black holing or edit blocking or simply delaying the edits (until a
> human can hand check them) of individual IPs/accounts from anywhere on
> the internet that engage in certain broad patterns of activity.
>
> The important thing is to minimise the length/number of times that any
> particular IP is able to engage in Grawp-like or other stereotypic
> behaviour. While he/she/they would be able to soon find another IP, it
> significantly mitigates the damage that can be done, and minimises the
> cleanup.
>
>> X!
>
> --
> -Ian Woollard
>
> We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
> imperfect world would be much better.
>
> ___
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
]
It seems hard to believe that Verizon would let such a rangeblock sit
for long. I think the only message we need to get over to them is
"dude, we're not kidding. We don't want to rangeblock your entire ISP,
but this one person who has an internet account with you is causing us
major headaches. Because of your dynamic IP adresses, we are unable to
deal with it on an individual level. We are open to suggestions on how
we can solve the problem, but if you are really not willing to help us
out here, we simply have no other choise but to block every IP adress
in your range from editing, as much as we'd hate to do that"

I can't believe that bigwigs at Verizon would be willing to let that
happen, the question is just how to get through to the right people
that can do something about it.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-24 Thread Ian Woollard

On 25/12/2008, Soxred93  wrote:
> If we rangeblock all of Verizon, we're giving Grawp exactly what he
> wants. He wants to cause disruption, and causing a huge rangeblock is
> success for him.

It doesn't matter what he does or doesn't want. It only matters what
the wikipedia wants. Probably rangeblocking Verizon would be bad for
the Wikipedia's reputation ("Anyone can edit except for Verizon
users!"), Verizon would have to be incredibly unresponsive and acting
in incredibly bad faith to have to/really want to do that, but it
remains a possibility.

There might be a better case though for automatically, temporarily,
black holing or edit blocking or simply delaying the edits (until a
human can hand check them) of individual IPs/accounts from anywhere on
the internet that engage in certain broad patterns of activity.

The important thing is to minimise the length/number of times that any
particular IP is able to engage in Grawp-like or other stereotypic
behaviour. While he/she/they would be able to soon find another IP, it
significantly mitigates the damage that can be done, and minimises the
cleanup.

> X!

-- 
-Ian Woollard

We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
imperfect world would be much better.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-24 Thread Marc Riddell

on 12/24/08 8:43 PM, Soxred93 at soxre...@gmail.com wrote:

> If we rangeblock all of Verizon, we're giving Grawp exactly what he
> wants. He wants to cause disruption, and causing a huge rangeblock is
> success for him.
> 
> X!

You are absolutely right. This person (and his parents) need to have an
authority - in his face - ordering him to stop; and spelling out - in clear
detail - the consequences if he does not. This includes taking away his
weapon: his computer.

Marc Riddell

> 
> On Dec 24, 2008, at 5:10 PM [Dec 24, 2008 ], Martijn Hoekstra wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Jay Litwyn  wrote:
>>> For a newcomer to this thread, the abuse is in the what will only
>>> stand for
>>> ten seconds category, and as far as I know, the user was
>>> addressed. It is
>>> probably even hard to be sure that Hanson does not hav accounts
>>> that he
>>> reserves for honest work.
>>> 
>>> The United States Criminal Code, title 18, section 1030,
>>> 
>>> I think we would hav trouble demonstrating that wikipedia is
>>> protected
>>> (keyword in the legislation) by anything but tedious labour, and
>>> it's also
>>> hard to show damage in dollar terms, unless all the checkuser
>>> clerks are
>>> paid. I see nothing, because it's legislation geared towards
>>> milnet (domains
>>> ending in .mil). Maybe the secure part of wikipedia would qualify
>>> if they
>>> required bank-signed public keys.
>>> 
>>> http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview
>>> +t17t20+608+0++%28computer%29%20%20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC%
>>> 29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%281030%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%
>>> 20%20%20%20%20%20
>>> 
>>> The search term "computer" should not be necessary, and for some
>>> reason, it
>>> is. If the URL breaks, then start with:
>>> 
>>> http://uscode.house.gov/search/criteria.shtml
>>> 
>>> or only the domain name. I do not *think* we hav any basis for
>>> criminal
>>> proceedings. Physical, yes. ISPs, as far as I know, cannot compel
>>> read
>>> access to wikipedia. We don't block reads, either. Writers are
>>> about one in
>>> ten thousand. Hopefully, they know who to complain to at verizon
>>> and hav an
>>> account, already. Then it's just a matter of shutting down Hanson's
>>> accounts, methinks. The hard question is how long the block should
>>> be, for
>>> me, who is not in a position to make it.
>>> 
>>> Acceptable Use Policies (AUPs) govern the internet, not the
>>> CANSPAM act.
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
>> 
>> We should really consider the option of making the rangeblock, with a
>> very clear blocked page, that clearly indicated where users can
>> complain (verizon) about not being able to edit. And only we know for
>> sure that Verizon is in the know, that they do realise there is the
>> option that all of their users are getting blocked because this one
>> abusive account, that they are unable or unwilling to adress.
>> 
>> What I would like to know is: Who is currently contacting or trying to
>> contact Verizon, and, if we would consider the step of rangeblocking
>> all of Verizon, there should be on site discussion about this first,
>> at least on the administrators noticeboard.
>> 
>> ___
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> 
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-24 Thread Soxred93

If we rangeblock all of Verizon, we're giving Grawp exactly what he  
wants. He wants to cause disruption, and causing a huge rangeblock is  
success for him.

X!

On Dec 24, 2008, at 5:10 PM [Dec 24, 2008 ], Martijn Hoekstra wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Jay Litwyn  wrote:
>> For a newcomer to this thread, the abuse is in the what will only  
>> stand for
>> ten seconds category, and as far as I know, the user was  
>> addressed. It is
>> probably even hard to be sure that Hanson does not hav accounts  
>> that he
>> reserves for honest work.
>>
>> The United States Criminal Code, title 18, section 1030,
>>
>> I think we would hav trouble demonstrating that wikipedia is  
>> protected
>> (keyword in the legislation) by anything but tedious labour, and  
>> it's also
>> hard to show damage in dollar terms, unless all the checkuser  
>> clerks are
>> paid. I see nothing, because it's legislation geared towards  
>> milnet (domains
>> ending in .mil). Maybe the secure part of wikipedia would qualify  
>> if they
>> required bank-signed public keys.
>>
>> http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview 
>> +t17t20+608+0++%28computer%29%20%20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC% 
>> 29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%281030%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20% 
>> 20%20%20%20%20%20
>>
>> The search term "computer" should not be necessary, and for some  
>> reason, it
>> is. If the URL breaks, then start with:
>>
>> http://uscode.house.gov/search/criteria.shtml
>>
>> or only the domain name. I do not *think* we hav any basis for  
>> criminal
>> proceedings. Physical, yes. ISPs, as far as I know, cannot compel  
>> read
>> access to wikipedia. We don't block reads, either. Writers are  
>> about one in
>> ten thousand. Hopefully, they know who to complain to at verizon  
>> and hav an
>> account, already. Then it's just a matter of shutting down Hanson's
>> accounts, methinks. The hard question is how long the block should  
>> be, for
>> me, who is not in a position to make it.
>>
>> Acceptable Use Policies (AUPs) govern the internet, not the  
>> CANSPAM act.
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>
> We should really consider the option of making the rangeblock, with a
> very clear blocked page, that clearly indicated where users can
> complain (verizon) about not being able to edit. And only we know for
> sure that Verizon is in the know, that they do realise there is the
> option that all of their users are getting blocked because this one
> abusive account, that they are unable or unwilling to adress.
>
> What I would like to know is: Who is currently contacting or trying to
> contact Verizon, and, if we would consider the step of rangeblocking
> all of Verizon, there should be on site discussion about this first,
> at least on the administrators noticeboard.
>
> ___
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

I called verizon. Answer was a recording referring the case to 
secur...@verizon.net from which I hav received no response (AFAIK, 
postmaster@ serves the same purpose at any other ISP). I also called Jeremy 
Hanson's phone number at 562-431-7852. Yet another answering machine. I left 
a message explaining that I want to talk to Jeremy Hanson about wikipedia 
edits that violate editorial policy, plus my phone number and e-mail 
address. I have not verified that police action follows from our definition 
of vandalism (which probably doesn't need definition, because it is never as 
careful as graffiti). When I checked the state laws of Virginia, vandalism 
was about archaeology. "Don't wreck the art. Don't break or advertize on the 
stalactites". I would follow up with a call to police, and I did, and I had 
to retract my statement, because I could not back up what Fran Rogers was 
saying with *links* to what is stale data on checkuser pages. I will keep 
digging after my beer. While verizon's terms of service forbid "unwanted 
communication", I hav gotten no response from them via any channel, and I 
hav tried all of those listed on a whois search. You might want to list 
verizon in a LONG-TERM ABUSE case for not enforcing their TOS or AUP. Let me 
know exactly when or where that is.
___
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[http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/Privileged%20Information%20for%20Newbies.HTM]

"Phil Nash"  wrote in message 
news:0c822f24571b49ebaebaf408d9d87...@mothere50f7f7b...
> Martijn Hoekstra wrote:
>
> 
>>> We should really consider the option of making the rangeblock, with a
>>> very clear blocked page, that clearly indicated where users can
>>> complain (verizon) about not being able to edit. And only we know for
>>> sure that Verizon is in the know, that they do realise there is the
>>> option that all of their users are getting blocked because this one
>>> abusive account, that they are unable or unwilling to adress.
>>>
>>> What I would like to know is: Who is currently contacting or trying
>>> to contact Verizon, and, if we would consider the step of
>>> rangeblocking all of Verizon, there should be on site discussion
>>> about this first, at least on the administrators noticeboard.
>
> I tried that with Tiscali to get some action in relation to prolific
> sockpuppeteer [[User:WJH1992]], but all I got was whinges about the
> collateral damage. I really think that in relation to Jarlaxle/Grawp,
> Verizon should be contacted by someone with the standing of, say, Mike
> Godwin, although I appreciate he'd probably be reluctant to get involved.
>
>
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-24 Thread Elias Friedman

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 7:11 PM, Sarah Ewart  wrote:

> I am not a lawyer so perhaps I say this in ignorance, however, I find it
> hard to believe that the best way of handling this is by arguing that
> Jeremy
> Hanson poses a "public or common nuisance" to the people of Virginia and
> that we should ask local a judge to "summon a special grand jury" to
> investigate the complaint. It seems to me the victims of his death, rape
> and
> violence threats and harassment, who are global, not merely located in
> Virgina, should simply start reporting each instance to local law
> enforcement and that the Foundation should support this by providing
> relevant data and also either pursue a complaint through his ISP or support
> administrators doing so. I think a visit from the police/FBI is more likely
> to get through to him and his family than this Special Grand Jury stuff.
>


I agree. It may very well be a federal offense to use the Internet to make
threats of death and violence. It is definetly against state laws. The
recipients of the threats should be advised to file complaints with law
enforcement. The Foundation should back up the complaints not only with data
for the evidence but also with listing of other complaints in other
jurisdictions already filed.

Elias Friedman A.S., EMT-P ⚕
אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
elipo...@gmail.com
http://elipongo.blogspot.com/
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-24 Thread Sarah Ewart

I am not a lawyer so perhaps I say this in ignorance, however, I find it
hard to believe that the best way of handling this is by arguing that Jeremy
Hanson poses a "public or common nuisance" to the people of Virginia and
that we should ask local a judge to "summon a special grand jury" to
investigate the complaint. It seems to me the victims of his death, rape and
violence threats and harassment, who are global, not merely located in
Virgina, should simply start reporting each instance to local law
enforcement and that the Foundation should support this by providing
relevant data and also either pursue a complaint through his ISP or support
administrators doing so. I think a visit from the police/FBI is more likely
to get through to him and his family than this Special Grand Jury stuff.


On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 10:44 AM, Jay Litwyn  wrote:

> Notice that it doesn't say "country". It says "county". That means all five
> plaintiffs must be from Virginia. The phrase "Special Grand Jury" sounds
> hard to my ears, too. I would love to say that laws back up our editorial
> policy, and in this case, his phone number or sock puppets that have not
> yet
> been officially confirmed, but are about to be and are in operation, are
> about the best channels, ATM.
>
> His activity does violate TOS or AUP, and I do not see Verizon enforcing it
> anytime soon. Anybody else try to raise interest from secur...@verizon.net
> ?
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Soxred93" 
> To: "English Wikipedia" 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 11:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
>
>
> I don't think it'll be hard to get 5 people...
>
> X!
>
> On Dec 24, 2008, at 6:01 AM [Dec 24, 2008 ], FT2 wrote:
>
> > :)
> >
> >
> > FT2
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Jay Litwyn 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Okay...I found something, and maybe I should be looking at federal
> >> law,
> >> because I do not see it happening reliably. It opens doors to
> >> being very
> >> slow. I wish that a brick wall that seems to be verizon boded well
> >> for
> >> their
> >> taking action on snail mail.
> >>
> >> § 48-1. Investigation of complaint by special grand jury.
> >>
> >> When complaint is made to the circuit court of any county, or the
> >> corporation court of any city of this Commonwealth, by five or more
> >> citizens
> >> of any county, city or town, setting forth the existence of a
> >> public or
> >> common nuisance, the court, or the judge thereof in vacation,
> >> shall summon
> >> a
> >> special grand jury, in the mode provided by law, to the next term
> >> of such
> >> court, to specially investigate such complaint.
> >>
> >> (Code 1919, § 1520.)
> >>
> > ___
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> > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

Notice that it doesn't say "country". It says "county". That means all five 
plaintiffs must be from Virginia. The phrase "Special Grand Jury" sounds 
hard to my ears, too. I would love to say that laws back up our editorial 
policy, and in this case, his phone number or sock puppets that have not yet 
been officially confirmed, but are about to be and are in operation, are 
about the best channels, ATM.

His activity does violate TOS or AUP, and I do not see Verizon enforcing it 
anytime soon. Anybody else try to raise interest from secur...@verizon.net?

- Original Message - 
From: "Soxred93" 
To: "English Wikipedia" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp


I don't think it'll be hard to get 5 people...

X!

On Dec 24, 2008, at 6:01 AM [Dec 24, 2008 ], FT2 wrote:

> :)
>
>
> FT2
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Jay Litwyn 
> wrote:
>
>> Okay...I found something, and maybe I should be looking at federal
>> law,
>> because I do not see it happening reliably. It opens doors to
>> being very
>> slow. I wish that a brick wall that seems to be verizon boded well
>> for
>> their
>> taking action on snail mail.
>>
>> § 48-1. Investigation of complaint by special grand jury.
>>
>> When complaint is made to the circuit court of any county, or the
>> corporation court of any city of this Commonwealth, by five or more
>> citizens
>> of any county, city or town, setting forth the existence of a
>> public or
>> common nuisance, the court, or the judge thereof in vacation,
>> shall summon
>> a
>> special grand jury, in the mode provided by law, to the next term
>> of such
>> court, to specially investigate such complaint.
>>
>> (Code 1919, § 1520.)
>>
> ___
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> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-24 Thread Phil Nash

Martijn Hoekstra wrote:

> We should really consider the option of making the rangeblock, with a
>> very clear blocked page, that clearly indicated where users can
>> complain (verizon) about not being able to edit. And only we know for
>> sure that Verizon is in the know, that they do realise there is the
>> option that all of their users are getting blocked because this one
>> abusive account, that they are unable or unwilling to adress.
>>
>> What I would like to know is: Who is currently contacting or trying
>> to contact Verizon, and, if we would consider the step of
>> rangeblocking all of Verizon, there should be on site discussion
>> about this first, at least on the administrators noticeboard.

I tried that with Tiscali to get some action in relation to prolific 
sockpuppeteer [[User:WJH1992]], but all I got was whinges about the 
collateral damage. I really think that in relation to Jarlaxle/Grawp, 
Verizon should be contacted by someone with the standing of, say, Mike 
Godwin, although I appreciate he'd probably be reluctant to get involved.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-24 Thread Martijn Hoekstra

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Jay Litwyn  wrote:
> For a newcomer to this thread, the abuse is in the what will only stand for
> ten seconds category, and as far as I know, the user was addressed. It is
> probably even hard to be sure that Hanson does not hav accounts that he
> reserves for honest work.
>
> The United States Criminal Code, title 18, section 1030,
>
> I think we would hav trouble demonstrating that wikipedia is protected
> (keyword in the legislation) by anything but tedious labour, and it's also
> hard to show damage in dollar terms, unless all the checkuser clerks are
> paid. I see nothing, because it's legislation geared towards milnet (domains
> ending in .mil). Maybe the secure part of wikipedia would qualify if they
> required bank-signed public keys.
>
> http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+608+0++%28computer%29%20%20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%281030%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20
>
> The search term "computer" should not be necessary, and for some reason, it
> is. If the URL breaks, then start with:
>
> http://uscode.house.gov/search/criteria.shtml
>
> or only the domain name. I do not *think* we hav any basis for criminal
> proceedings. Physical, yes. ISPs, as far as I know, cannot compel read
> access to wikipedia. We don't block reads, either. Writers are about one in
> ten thousand. Hopefully, they know who to complain to at verizon and hav an
> account, already. Then it's just a matter of shutting down Hanson's
> accounts, methinks. The hard question is how long the block should be, for
> me, who is not in a position to make it.
>
> Acceptable Use Policies (AUPs) govern the internet, not the CANSPAM act.
>
>
> ___
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

We should really consider the option of making the rangeblock, with a
very clear blocked page, that clearly indicated where users can
complain (verizon) about not being able to edit. And only we know for
sure that Verizon is in the know, that they do realise there is the
option that all of their users are getting blocked because this one
abusive account, that they are unable or unwilling to adress.

What I would like to know is: Who is currently contacting or trying to
contact Verizon, and, if we would consider the step of rangeblocking
all of Verizon, there should be on site discussion about this first,
at least on the administrators noticeboard.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-24 Thread Soxred93

I don't think it'll be hard to get 5 people...

X!

On Dec 24, 2008, at 6:01 AM [Dec 24, 2008 ], FT2 wrote:

> :)
>
>
> FT2
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Jay Litwyn   
> wrote:
>
>> Okay...I found something, and maybe I should be looking at federal  
>> law,
>> because I do not see it happening reliably. It opens doors to  
>> being very
>> slow. I wish that a brick wall that seems to be verizon boded well  
>> for
>> their
>> taking action on snail mail.
>>
>> § 48-1. Investigation of complaint by special grand jury.
>>
>> When complaint is made to the circuit court of any county, or the
>> corporation court of any city of this Commonwealth, by five or more
>> citizens
>> of any county, city or town, setting forth the existence of a  
>> public or
>> common nuisance, the court, or the judge thereof in vacation,  
>> shall summon
>> a
>> special grand jury, in the mode provided by law, to the next term  
>> of such
>> court, to specially investigate such complaint.
>>
>> (Code 1919, § 1520.)
>>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

For a newcomer to this thread, the abuse is in the what will only stand for
ten seconds category, and as far as I know, the user was addressed. It is
probably even hard to be sure that Hanson does not hav accounts that he
reserves for honest work.

The United States Criminal Code, title 18, section 1030,

I think we would hav trouble demonstrating that wikipedia is protected
(keyword in the legislation) by anything but tedious labour, and it's also
hard to show damage in dollar terms, unless all the checkuser clerks are
paid. I see nothing, because it's legislation geared towards milnet (domains
ending in .mil). Maybe the secure part of wikipedia would qualify if they
required bank-signed public keys.

http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+608+0++%28computer%29%20%20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%281030%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20

The search term "computer" should not be necessary, and for some reason, it
is. If the URL breaks, then start with:

http://uscode.house.gov/search/criteria.shtml

or only the domain name. I do not *think* we hav any basis for criminal
proceedings. Physical, yes. ISPs, as far as I know, cannot compel read
access to wikipedia. We don't block reads, either. Writers are about one in
ten thousand. Hopefully, they know who to complain to at verizon and hav an
account, already. Then it's just a matter of shutting down Hanson's
accounts, methinks. The hard question is how long the block should be, for
me, who is not in a position to make it.

Acceptable Use Policies (AUPs) govern the internet, not the CANSPAM act.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-24 Thread Brian

He's wasted some time, but he hasn't hurt anyone. Give him one last chance.
Ensure that he sees this thread, and if it stops, let him go.
Cheers:)
Brian
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

>> > 2008/12/11 Fran Rogers :
(...)
>> > You could also contact his ISP. It puts them in a bad light to
>> > have someone like that on their networks and nearly always
>> > violates T&C-they might well want to terminate his service. But >> > 
>> > he'll probably just get another ISP; but depending on where he >> > 
>> > lives there might not be many ISPs in his area.
(...)

It's hard to know that verizon should be in a red light, except by 
exhaustion. Many ISPs send auto-replies to spam reports, just for the 
publicity. The sheer volume of reports can make personal replies 
impractical. I ignore auto-replies until the problem goes away. This problem 
does not seem to be going away. Haggar The Horrible (with 1337 variations) 
seems to be his favourite cartoon character.

Right now, all I can see legally is potential for federal law concerning 
viruses to be of use. Physically, there is still potential for blocking the 
whole ISP. Do not look to hard and long at rules against this, because ISPs 
use spamhaus.org (SORBS/SORBL) at their own discretion. Some block e-mail, 
only. Some block every packet. With my level of USENET activity, I would 
probably see a thousand pieces of spam every day without filters, and about 
thirty percent of that would come from spam-friendly domains.

Wikipedia is a wonderful place to learn about rules on freedom of speech. 
Maybe your own ISP's support address can tell you about their spam assasin 
configuration.
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

2008-12-24 Thread FT2

:)


FT2


On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Jay Litwyn  wrote:

> Okay...I found something, and maybe I should be looking at federal law,
> because I do not see it happening reliably. It opens doors to being very
> slow. I wish that a brick wall that seems to be verizon boded well for
> their
> taking action on snail mail.
>
> § 48-1. Investigation of complaint by special grand jury.
>
> When complaint is made to the circuit court of any county, or the
> corporation court of any city of this Commonwealth, by five or more
> citizens
> of any county, city or town, setting forth the existence of a public or
> common nuisance, the court, or the judge thereof in vacation, shall summon
> a
> special grand jury, in the mode provided by law, to the next term of such
> court, to specially investigate such complaint.
>
> (Code 1919, § 1520.)
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

Okay...I found something, and maybe I should be looking at federal law, 
because I do not see it happening reliably. It opens doors to being very 
slow. I wish that a brick wall that seems to be verizon boded well for their 
taking action on snail mail.

§ 48-1. Investigation of complaint by special grand jury.

When complaint is made to the circuit court of any county, or the 
corporation court of any city of this Commonwealth, by five or more citizens 
of any county, city or town, setting forth the existence of a public or 
common nuisance, the court, or the judge thereof in vacation, shall summon a 
special grand jury, in the mode provided by law, to the next term of such 
court, to specially investigate such complaint.

(Code 1919, § 1520.)

- Original Message - 
From: "William King" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 5:16 AM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp


> Looks like the self-described "small giant" (Grawp) was doing his thing 
> this
> morning:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/V2score
>
> Time in a jail cell should be the ultimate Christmas/Hanukkah present for
> Grawp.
>
> William King (Willking1979)
> --
>> From: "William King" 
>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:14 PM
>> To: "English Wikipedia" 
>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
>>
>>> I strongly agree. Something must be done very soon. I noticed just in 
>>> the
>>> past hour or so on RC patrol, Grawp harassed a few more users.
>>>
>>> William King (Willking1979)
>>>
>>> ----------
>>> From: "Durova" 
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:24 PM
>>> To: "English Wikipedia" 
>>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
>>>
>>>> There would be no shortage of people to sign a petition to the ISP, if
>>>> you
>>>> want to go that route.  This has gone on long enough.
>>>>
>>>> -Durova
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 2:19 PM, George Herbert
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Ian Woollard >>>> >wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > 2008/12/11 Fran Rogers :
>>>>> > > Personally, I'm utterly bamboozled. This kid is nineteen years old
>>>>> > > and
>>>>> in
>>>>> > > college; he's an adult, and he has his entire life ahead of him.
>>>>> > > Yet he
>>>>> > > still continues to anonymously threaten and harass people on the
>>>>> > Internet,
>>>>> > > even though he's clearly stepped into illegal territory, his
>>>>> > > identity
>>>>> is
>>>>> > > known along with reams of evidence of his misdeeds connecting them
>>>>> > > to
>>>>> > him,
>>>>> > > and his parent upon whom he's still dependent has been alerted. 
>>>>> > > And
>>>>> > > he
>>>>> > still
>>>>> > > soldiers on, using Mom's broadband to move pages on Wikipedia to
>>>>> > > titles
>>>>> > "I
>>>>> > > will rape and murder (insert admin here)." What could possibly be
>>>>> running
>>>>> > > through his mind? And how can he be stopped?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If he's making threats of violence and stalking then you should
>>>>> > contact his local police. They'll probably at least discuss it with
>>>>> > him and he'll either stop or eventually criminal proceedings will
>>>>> > occur. Doesn't sound like there's any other option.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Forensic analysis of his computer could doubtless prove it was him
>>>>> > doing this, not his mother who shares the same IP.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > You could also contact his ISP. It puts them in a bad light to have
>>>>> > someone like that on their networks and nearly always violates T&C-
>>>>> > they might well want to terminate his service. But he'll probably
>>>>> > just
>>>>> > get another ISP; but depending on where he lives there might not be
>>>>> > many ISPs in his area.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the Foundation could send a cease-and-desist letter to both 
>>>>> her
>>>>> and
>>>>> him, cc the ISP?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> -george william herbert
>>>>> george.herb...@gmail.com
>>>>> ___
>>>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>>>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> http://durova.blogspot.com/
>>>> ___
>>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>>
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp

http://law.justia.com/virginia/codes/toc1001000/10.1-1004.html

All I get out of Virginia State law, ATM, concerns archaeology.
Maybe I should keep digging, and for some reason, what I hav found so far is 
not promising that verizon's stated restrictions on spamming are not more 
exact and *potentially* effective. Someone said that a law without 
enforcement is not a law (of course, not, it is a bill), and I do not see 
any promises from Verizon/Bellsouth.

- Original Message - 
From: "William King" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 5:16 AM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp


> Looks like the self-described "small giant" (Grawp) was doing his thing 
> this
> morning:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/V2score
>
> Time in a jail cell should be the ultimate Christmas/Hanukkah present for
> Grawp.
>
> William King (Willking1979)
> --
>> From: "William King" 
>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:14 PM
>> To: "English Wikipedia" 
>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
>>
>>> I strongly agree. Something must be done very soon. I noticed just in 
>>> the
>>> past hour or so on RC patrol, Grawp harassed a few more users.
>>>
>>> William King (Willking1979)
>>>
>>> ----------
>>> From: "Durova" 
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:24 PM
>>> To: "English Wikipedia" 
>>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
>>>
>>>> There would be no shortage of people to sign a petition to the ISP, if
>>>> you
>>>> want to go that route.  This has gone on long enough.
>>>>
>>>> -Durova
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 2:19 PM, George Herbert
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Ian Woollard >>>> >wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > 2008/12/11 Fran Rogers :
>>>>> > > Personally, I'm utterly bamboozled. This kid is nineteen years old
>>>>> > > and
>>>>> in
>>>>> > > college; he's an adult, and he has his entire life ahead of him.
>>>>> > > Yet he
>>>>> > > still continues to anonymously threaten and harass people on the
>>>>> > Internet,
>>>>> > > even though he's clearly stepped into illegal territory, his
>>>>> > > identity
>>>>> is
>>>>> > > known along with reams of evidence of his misdeeds connecting them
>>>>> > > to
>>>>> > him,
>>>>> > > and his parent upon whom he's still dependent has been alerted. 
>>>>> > > And
>>>>> > > he
>>>>> > still
>>>>> > > soldiers on, using Mom's broadband to move pages on Wikipedia to
>>>>> > > titles
>>>>> > "I
>>>>> > > will rape and murder (insert admin here)." What could possibly be
>>>>> running
>>>>> > > through his mind? And how can he be stopped?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If he's making threats of violence and stalking then you should
>>>>> > contact his local police. They'll probably at least discuss it with
>>>>> > him and he'll either stop or eventually criminal proceedings will
>>>>> > occur. Doesn't sound like there's any other option.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Forensic analysis of his computer could doubtless prove it was him
>>>>> > doing this, not his mother who shares the same IP.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > You could also contact his ISP. It puts them in a bad light to have
>>>>> > someone like that on their networks and nearly always violates T&C-
>>>>> > they might well want to terminate his service. But he'll probably
>>>>> > just
>>>>> > get another ISP; but depending on where he lives there might not be
>>>>> > many ISPs in his area.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the Foundation could send a cease-and-desist letter to both 
>>>>> her
>>>>> and
>>>>> him, cc the ISP?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> -george william herbert
>>>>> george.herb...@gmail.com
>>>>> ___
>>>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>>>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> http://durova.blogspot.com/
>>>> ___
>>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>>
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp