[Wikimedia-l] Re: Conversation with Maggie Dennis on Community Resilience & Sustainability

[Cornelius Kibelka]

Hi friends,

the call is about to start in 20 minutes. You can watch the live stream on
Youtube (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHEONef1zmQ&ab_channel=WikimediaFoundation),
where you can post questions as well.

Cheers
Cornelius

On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 5:53 PM Cornelius Kibelka <
ckibelka-...@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> this is a reminder that our conversation call with Maggie Dennis will take
> place on *October 14 at 13:00 UTC *(check your local time
> ). Please write an email to
> answ...@wikimedia.org if you're interested in joining us.
>
> Cheers
> Cornelius
>
> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 3:33 PM Cornelius Kibelka <
> ckibelka-...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi friends,
>>
>> The Community Resilience & Sustainability
>> 
>> team at the Wikimedia Foundation is hosting a new call led by its Vice
>> President Maggie Dennis
>>  (it was called
>> 'Office Hour' before, but we're trying to move away from that word, because
>> it's so hard to translate).
>>
>>
>> Topics within scope for this call include Movement Strategy coordination,
>> Board Governance, Trust and Safety (and the Universal Code of Conduct),
>> Community Development, and Human Rights. We anticipate there may be
>> interest in the recent September statement
>> .
>> Come with your questions or feedback, and let’s talk! You can also send us
>> your questions in advance.
>>
>>
>> The meeting will take place on *October 14 at 13:00 UTC *(check your
>> local time ).
>>
>> You can check all the details on Meta
>> 
>> .
>>
>> Cheers
>> Cornelius
>>
>> --
>>
>> Cornelius Kibelka (he/him)
>>
>> Event Coordinator
>>
>> Movement Strategy + Governance
>>
>> 2030.wikimedia.org
>>
>> 
>>
>> *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
>> the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
>> *
>> 
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Cornelius Kibelka (he/him)
>
> Event Coordinator
>
> Movement Strategy + Governance
>
> 2030.wikimedia.org
>
> 
>
> *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
> sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
> *
> 
>


-- 

Cornelius Kibelka (he/him)

Event Coordinator

Movement Strategy + Governance

2030.wikimedia.org



*Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
*

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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Movement Charter Drafting Committee elections are now open!

[Adam Wight]

On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 12:02 PM Kaarel Vaidla 
wrote:

> Additionally, we are piloting a so-called “Election Compass
> ” for this election. Click
> yourself through the tool and respond to the 19 statements, and you will
> see which candidate is closest to you!
>

Hi, thank you for facilitating this process and for sharing the interesting
"election compass" experiment.  After trying the tool, I urge you to take
it offline.  Its algorithm is opaque, and in my opinion very unlikely to
give a helpful result.  It's explicitly meant to influence how we vote, but
without us having done any validation of what it's actually calculating.
If you want to test this tool, you could position it as an "exit poll", to
compare the tool's results with how each person actually voted, or you
could turn off the "alignment" scoring.

My suspicions started with the fact that I answered "strongly support" or
"support" to almost every question, which suggests that the axes were not
chosen in a way that differentiates between the candidates.  Instead, it
seems like it's going to amplify tiny differences like "strongly" vs
"support"—is this true?

Was the tool analyzed with this sort of concern in mind?  Are there reasons
to believe that the "alignment" scores are meaningful in our scenario?

Kind regards,
Adam Wight
[[mw:User:Adamw]]
Writing in my volunteer capacity.
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Movement Charter Drafting Committee elections are now open!

[Risker]

Adam, you may find the tool discussed here

to be helpful.  It is created by one of the candidates, is based on the
information submitted by candidates for the election compass, and is quite
visual.  (Disclosure: I am also a candidate.)

I'd also suggest that the written answers illustrate the differences
between candidates a little more specifically than the general five-point
compass.  Perhaps, also, part of the reason that there's some consensus
amongst candidates (at least on the surface) is that they could be
representative of a pretty broad consensus throughout the global community
on some points.

Risker/Anne

On Thu, 14 Oct 2021 at 09:26, Adam Wight  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 12:02 PM Kaarel Vaidla 
> wrote:
>
>> Additionally, we are piloting a so-called “Election Compass
>> ” for this election. Click
>> yourself through the tool and respond to the 19 statements, and you will
>> see which candidate is closest to you!
>>
>
> Hi, thank you for facilitating this process and for sharing the
> interesting "election compass" experiment.  After trying the tool, I urge
> you to take it offline.  Its algorithm is opaque, and in my opinion very
> unlikely to give a helpful result.  It's explicitly meant to influence how
> we vote, but without us having done any validation of what it's actually
> calculating.  If you want to test this tool, you could position it as an
> "exit poll", to compare the tool's results with how each person actually
> voted, or you could turn off the "alignment" scoring.
>
> My suspicions started with the fact that I answered "strongly support" or
> "support" to almost every question, which suggests that the axes were not
> chosen in a way that differentiates between the candidates.  Instead, it
> seems like it's going to amplify tiny differences like "strongly" vs
> "support"—is this true?
>
> Was the tool analyzed with this sort of concern in mind?  Are there
> reasons to believe that the "alignment" scores are meaningful in our
> scenario?
>
> Kind regards,
> Adam Wight
> [[mw:User:Adamw]]
> Writing in my volunteer capacity.
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Movement Charter Drafting Committee elections are now open!

[Vi to]

Exactly this, according to the tool I'm somehow far from Risker but reading
her replies I feel quite close.

Vito

Il giorno gio 14 ott 2021 alle ore 15:38 Risker  ha
scritto:

> Adam, you may find the tool discussed here
> 
> to be helpful.  It is created by one of the candidates, is based on the
> information submitted by candidates for the election compass, and is quite
> visual.  (Disclosure: I am also a candidate.)
>
> I'd also suggest that the written answers illustrate the differences
> between candidates a little more specifically than the general five-point
> compass.  Perhaps, also, part of the reason that there's some consensus
> amongst candidates (at least on the surface) is that they could be
> representative of a pretty broad consensus throughout the global community
> on some points.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On Thu, 14 Oct 2021 at 09:26, Adam Wight  wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 12:02 PM Kaarel Vaidla 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Additionally, we are piloting a so-called “Election Compass
>>> ” for this election.
>>> Click yourself through the tool and respond to the 19 statements, and you
>>> will see which candidate is closest to you!
>>>
>>
>> Hi, thank you for facilitating this process and for sharing the
>> interesting "election compass" experiment.  After trying the tool, I urge
>> you to take it offline.  Its algorithm is opaque, and in my opinion very
>> unlikely to give a helpful result.  It's explicitly meant to influence how
>> we vote, but without us having done any validation of what it's actually
>> calculating.  If you want to test this tool, you could position it as an
>> "exit poll", to compare the tool's results with how each person actually
>> voted, or you could turn off the "alignment" scoring.
>>
>> My suspicions started with the fact that I answered "strongly support" or
>> "support" to almost every question, which suggests that the axes were not
>> chosen in a way that differentiates between the candidates.  Instead, it
>> seems like it's going to amplify tiny differences like "strongly" vs
>> "support"—is this true?
>>
>> Was the tool analyzed with this sort of concern in mind?  Are there
>> reasons to believe that the "alignment" scores are meaningful in our
>> scenario?
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Adam Wight
>> [[mw:User:Adamw]]
>> Writing in my volunteer capacity.
>> ___
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[Wikimedia-l] Toolhub 1.0 is launched! Discover software tools used at Wikimedia

[Birgit Müller]

Hi All,

We are happy to announce the launch of Toolhub
 – a community-authored catalogue that aims
to make software tools
 used in the
Wikimedia movement discoverable to everyone.

Community developed tools – including web applications, bots, gadgets, user
scripts, lua modules, and more – play a significant role in the Wikimedia
projects. These software applications address a wide range of use cases
including finding bad faith edits and other content curation, bulk editing,
collecting statistical information, creating special citations, and much
more. About ⅓ of all edits are made by bots and tools. In addition,
semi-automated edits are helped by user scripts, gadgets, and other editing
assistance tools that run from the user's local computer or directly inside
the wikis. There are thousands of tools available, but how can you find
them?

With Toolhub, you can document and find tools
, promote their use in your wiki
community, and help improve them by contributing data. You can create and
share lists of tools relevant to your work - for example, for GLAM tools,
or for wiki projects such as Women in Red.

This first release provides a core set of functionalities
, and contains an initial
data set of about 1500 tools. Most of the initial tools in the catalog are
imported from the same data files developers have created for Hay's
Directory  which has been a major
inspiration for Toolhub.

Toolhub serves developers and users of tools alike. It is part of our
efforts to improve the infrastructure and services for technical
contributors, captured under one of Technology’s top level objectives in
the FY 2020-2021 and 2021-2022 annual plans: Tech Community Building
.
We hope to continue conversations with developers and users of tools, plan
to improve Toolhub, and to further expand the functionality.

A collaborative system and open developer platform

Toolhub is built as an API driven platform that makes it possible to extend
and remix the catalogue, and to make collecting and reusing information
about tools as open and collaborative as we can. Everything that can be
done interactively with the Toolhub website can also be done remotely
through the API. We would love to hear from technical contributors
interested in using the Toolhub API
 to build new tools
that make new ways to add or consume information from Toolhub's catalog.

Our decision record
 and weekly
progress reports 
on Meta provide more insights in technical implementation details and
decisions made throughout the development process. The Toolhub/About page
 provides information on
project origin, research, use cases, data model, and roadmap. This recording
from a lightning talk at ‘21 Wikimania
 gives an overview of the main
aspects in 10 minutes.

Thank you <3

This project wouldn’t have been possible without the support, knowledge,
ideas and prior work of many. One of the nicest side-effects of a release
is that it’s a great opportunity to thank folks for their time and
contributions :-)


   -

   Husky , whose Hay's Directory
    provided the foundation for the
   data model used by Toolhub and inspired some of its features.
   -

   Harej , for his invaluable
   contributions in the early stages of the Toolhub project.
   -

   Our 'advisory board' - Giuseppe
    (SRE), Risker
    (editor, admin), Reedy
    (Security), Keegan
    (Community
   Relations), and Eran
    (volunteer
   developer & RTL expert) for providing their perspectives on key questions
   throughout the development process.
   -

   Giuseppe, Kunal , Manuel
   , Effie
   , Cole
    and Emanuele
    from SRE and Majavah
    for their help on finding
   and resolving deployment issues.
   -

   Dan 

[Wikimedia-l] 100$ million dollars and still obsolete

[Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga]

Dear all,
Today I learned that, despite having $100 million in the Endowment fund, we 
can't have a design team big enough to make our websites not look like they're 
stuck in 2001. I don't know if anyone is behind the wheel, but the car is 
expensive.

Sincerely,
Galder

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[Wikimedia-l] Re: 100$ million dollars and still obsolete

[Jay prakash]

Hi Galder,

Have you ever seen Vector skin version 2?

See: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements,

You can adopt new versions from your preferences. Some wikis like French
Wikipedia, Bangala Wikipedia, etc., already aptoted this new version for
their default interface.

Regards,

Jay Prakash,
Volunteer Developer, Wikimedia Community

On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 12:04 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
galder...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
> Today I learned that, despite having $100 million in the Endowment fund,
> we can't have a design team big enough to make our websites not look like
> they're stuck in 2001. I don't know if anyone is behind the wheel, but the
> car is expensive.
>
> Sincerely,
> Galder
>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: 100$ million dollars and still obsolete

[Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga]

Yes. That's why.

From: Jay prakash <0freerunn...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 8:42 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: 100$ million dollars and still obsolete

Hi Galder,

Have you ever seen Vector skin version 2?

See: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements,

You can adopt new versions from your preferences. Some wikis like French 
Wikipedia, Bangala Wikipedia, etc., already aptoted this new version for their 
default interface.

Regards,

Jay Prakash,
Volunteer Developer, Wikimedia Community

On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 12:04 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga 
mailto:galder...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
Dear all,
Today I learned that, despite having $100 million in the Endowment fund, we 
can't have a design team big enough to make our websites not look like they're 
stuck in 2001. I don't know if anyone is behind the wheel, but the car is 
expensive.

Sincerely,
Galder

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[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees new resolution on branding

[Shani Evenstein]

Dear all,

I am happy to share with you that the Wikimedia Foundation Board of
Trustees has passed a new resolution on the topic of branding [1].

Some context

As you may remember, last year the Board paused all work under the 2030
Movement Brand Project, in order to rethink and improve the Foundation’s
approach to community participation and decision making around renaming.
After year-long work, attentive listening and thoughtful conversation
between the Board, Wikimedia Foundation staff, and community advisors, the
committee has come up with a recommendation for next steps. The
recommendation was unanimously approved by the Board and captured in the
above mentioned resolution. The Wikimedia Foundation will therefore be
resuming its role to steward and protect Wikimedia brands, in partnership
with our broader movement, and the ad hoc Brand Committee concludes its
work .

What are the main aspects of the resolution?

Importantly, this resolution extends the Board’s decision that the
Wikimedia Foundation should not pursue renaming work for this fiscal year
(until at least July 2022). Instead, it directs the Foundation to support
the Wikimedia movement through three main areas of brand work that protect
and support Wikimedia’s reputation throughout the world. Please read more
about this decision on the Diff Blog [2].

Next steps?

Wikimedia Foundation teams intend to share more information on new
projects, including their plans for engaging our community, in the coming
weeks. In the meantime, Foundation staff and I are available to answer
clarifying questions on the Wikimedia brand / 2030 movement brand project
talk page on Meta [3]. You are also welcome to join the Board’s Open
Meeting on October 20th, where you will be able to ask questions and hear
from the team directly [4].

Special thanks

On behalf of the Board, I would like to thank the community advisors to the
Brand Committee. This group has worked with us since February 2021, lending
their time and expertise. Their input to the process has been invaluable
and we appreciate their commitment to help us find a productive way
forward. Thank you -- Lucy Crompton-Reid, Joao Alexandre Peschanski, Megan
Wacha, Justice Okai-Allotey, Rachmat Wahidi, Erlan Vega Rios, Richard
Knipel, Phoebe Ayers and Jeffrey Keefer!

I would also like to thank our Brand Studio team at the Wikimedia Foundation
for their hard work, dedication, professionalism, flexibility, openness,
and vision they brought to our joint work on the future of branding.

Together, we made sure that the next steps for brand work are closely
connected to our 2030 strategic goals and we have no doubt they will be an
important service to the Wikimedia movement. I look forward to watching
these plans come to life and invite the community to actively participate
in these discussions and decisions as they unfold.

Sincerely,

Shani Evenstein Sigalov

Chair, Brand Committee

Board of Trustees, Wikimedia Foundation


[1]:

https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Resolution:Next_Steps_for_Brand_Work,_2021

[2]:

https://diff.wikimedia.org/2021/10/14/wikimedia-foundation-board-of-trustees-new-resolution-on-branding/

[3]:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project


[4]:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Community_Affairs_Committee/2021-10-20_Conversation_with_Trustees
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: 100$ million dollars and still obsolete

[Tito Dutta]

Indeed, the lack or modernisation of the web interface, and lack of an
improved Android/iPhone (or simply "smartphone") editing app[1] are
possibly some of the major areas to focus.

If the "next billion internet users", a term we often used to use are not
getting involved as much as we expected, possibly "interface" is one reason
behind it.

[1] I am aware of the currently available apps.

শুক্র, 15 অক্টো., 2021 12:03 AM তারিখে Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
galder...@hotmail.com> লিখেছেন:

> Dear all,
> Today I learned that, despite having $100 million in the Endowment fund,
> we can't have a design team big enough to make our websites not look like
> they're stuck in 2001. I don't know if anyone is behind the wheel, but the
> car is expensive.
>
> Sincerely,
> Galder
>
> ___
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees new resolution on branding

[Tito Dutta]

Greetings,
Thanks for the update. I thank the board for taking this action.
What does "supporting flexible naming for all affiliates, including the use
of taglines;" mean, that is mentioned on the Diff blog post?
Sincerely,
User:Titodutta
(Sent from a handheld device, excuse typos etc)

শুক্র, 15 অক্টো., 2021 12:20 AM তারিখে Shani Evenstein 
লিখেছেন:

> Dear all,
>
> I am happy to share with you that the Wikimedia Foundation Board of
> Trustees has passed a new resolution on the topic of branding [1].
>
> Some context
>
> As you may remember, last year the Board paused all work under the 2030
> Movement Brand Project, in order to rethink and improve the Foundation’s
> approach to community participation and decision making around renaming.
> After year-long work, attentive listening and thoughtful conversation
> between the Board, Wikimedia Foundation staff, and community advisors, the
> committee has come up with a recommendation for next steps. The
> recommendation was unanimously approved by the Board and captured in the
> above mentioned resolution. The Wikimedia Foundation will therefore be
> resuming its role to steward and protect Wikimedia brands, in partnership
> with our broader movement, and the ad hoc Brand Committee concludes its
> work .
>
> What are the main aspects of the resolution?
>
> Importantly, this resolution extends the Board’s decision that the
> Wikimedia Foundation should not pursue renaming work for this fiscal year
> (until at least July 2022). Instead, it directs the Foundation to support
> the Wikimedia movement through three main areas of brand work that protect
> and support Wikimedia’s reputation throughout the world. Please read more
> about this decision on the Diff Blog [2].
>
> Next steps?
>
> Wikimedia Foundation teams intend to share more information on new
> projects, including their plans for engaging our community, in the coming
> weeks. In the meantime, Foundation staff and I are available to answer
> clarifying questions on the Wikimedia brand / 2030 movement brand project
> talk page on Meta [3]. You are also welcome to join the Board’s Open
> Meeting on October 20th, where you will be able to ask questions and hear
> from the team directly [4].
>
> Special thanks
>
> On behalf of the Board, I would like to thank the community advisors to
> the Brand Committee. This group has worked with us since February 2021,
> lending their time and expertise. Their input to the process has been
> invaluable and we appreciate their commitment to help us find a productive
> way forward. Thank you -- Lucy Crompton-Reid, Joao Alexandre Peschanski,
> Megan Wacha, Justice Okai-Allotey, Rachmat Wahidi, Erlan Vega Rios, Richard
> Knipel, Phoebe Ayers and Jeffrey Keefer!
>
> I would also like to thank our Brand Studio team at the Wikimedia
> Foundation for their hard work, dedication, professionalism, flexibility,
> openness, and vision they brought to our joint work on the future of
> branding.
>
> Together, we made sure that the next steps for brand work are closely
> connected to our 2030 strategic goals and we have no doubt they will be an
> important service to the Wikimedia movement. I look forward to watching
> these plans come to life and invite the community to actively participate
> in these discussions and decisions as they unfold.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Shani Evenstein Sigalov
>
> Chair, Brand Committee
>
> Board of Trustees, Wikimedia Foundation
>
>
> [1]:
>
>
> https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Resolution:Next_Steps_for_Brand_Work,_2021
>
> [2]:
>
>
> https://diff.wikimedia.org/2021/10/14/wikimedia-foundation-board-of-trustees-new-resolution-on-branding/
>
> [3]:
>
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project
> 
>
> [4]:
>
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Community_Affairs_Committee/2021-10-20_Conversation_with_Trustees
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: 100$ million dollars and still obsolete

[Jay prakash]

Hi,

I think design is a subjective term. It depends on person-to-person
preferences. So there will always be a big room for improvement.

WMF's Readers web team is already working to improve the design. They did
research and implemented new designs. We should always cooperate with them
by giving feedback so that more improvement can take place.

Currently, this team has 14 team members and consists of 3 UX
Designer/Engineers. So saying that they are not big enough is not good.
Please keep in mind that a big team is not always a good idea. [1][2]

[1]
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobmorgan/2015/04/15/why-smaller-teams-are-better-than-larger-ones/?sh=5707944a1e68
[2] https://blog.prototypr.io/small-team-vs-large-staff-1f921b69d0cf

Jay Prakash

On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 12:27 AM Tito Dutta  wrote:

> Indeed, the lack or modernisation of the web interface, and lack of an
> improved Android/iPhone (or simply "smartphone") editing app[1] are
> possibly some of the major areas to focus.
>
> If the "next billion internet users", a term we often used to use are not
> getting involved as much as we expected, possibly "interface" is one reason
> behind it.
>
> [1] I am aware of the currently available apps.
>
> শুক্র, 15 অক্টো., 2021 12:03 AM তারিখে Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
> galder...@hotmail.com> লিখেছেন:
>
>> Dear all,
>> Today I learned that, despite having $100 million in the Endowment fund,
>> we can't have a design team big enough to make our websites not look like
>> they're stuck in 2001. I don't know if anyone is behind the wheel, but the
>> car is expensive.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Galder
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/NJUPLU2TDWLM5N5JFKQSODNCIIUW6ON7/
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>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: 100$ million dollars and still obsolete

[Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga]

Yes, that's it. Vector was obsolete when it was deployed. New Vector would be 
obsolete even when Vector was created. It is 2021 and we still can't edit by 
mobile phone. It is 2021 and most of the tools outside the biggest Wikipedias 
are broken. It is 2021 and the Vector redesign doesn't take into account that 
coordinates are a thing. But yes, we do have 100.000.000$ so we can see how 
Internet was back in the 1990s also in the future.

From: Tito Dutta 
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 8:56 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: 100$ million dollars and still obsolete

Indeed, the lack or modernisation of the web interface, and lack of an improved 
Android/iPhone (or simply "smartphone") editing app[1] are possibly some of the 
major areas to focus.

If the "next billion internet users", a term we often used to use are not 
getting involved as much as we expected, possibly "interface" is one reason 
behind it.

[1] I am aware of the currently available apps.

শুক্র, 15 অক্টো., 2021 12:03 AM তারিখে Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga 
mailto:galder...@hotmail.com>> লিখেছেন:
Dear all,
Today I learned that, despite having $100 million in the Endowment fund, we 
can't have a design team big enough to make our websites not look like they're 
stuck in 2001. I don't know if anyone is behind the wheel, but the car is 
expensive.

Sincerely,
Galder

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[Wikimedia-l] Re: 100$ million dollars and still obsolete

[Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga]

Thanks Jay for your insights. I just had a meeting with some of the team 
members. If they can't develop a modern and useful design in a reasonable time 
lapse, then the team is underfunded. Having a big team is not always better, 
having a team big enough to work on something it should be solved a decade ago 
should. If design is subjective, then we don't need any design. Design is not 
subjective, as aesthetics aren't. There are tons of things published about good 
designs and bad designs. There are tons of things we could do but we aren't 
doing because we don't hire people to do it. But we have 100 million dollars, 
that would be great saved in a vault, instead of making our project better, so 
we can raise 300 million dollars because more people is coming to share more 
knowledge in more ways for more people.

From: Jay prakash <0freerunn...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 9:18 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: 100$ million dollars and still obsolete

Hi,

I think design is a subjective term. It depends on person-to-person 
preferences. So there will always be a big room for improvement.

WMF's Readers web team is already working to improve the design. They did 
research and implemented new designs. We should always cooperate with them by 
giving feedback so that more improvement can take place.

Currently, this team has 14 team members and consists of 3 UX 
Designer/Engineers. So saying that they are not big enough is not good. Please 
keep in mind that a big team is not always a good idea. [1][2]

[1] 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobmorgan/2015/04/15/why-smaller-teams-are-better-than-larger-ones/?sh=5707944a1e68
[2] https://blog.prototypr.io/small-team-vs-large-staff-1f921b69d0cf

Jay Prakash

On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 12:27 AM Tito Dutta 
mailto:trulyt...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Indeed, the lack or modernisation of the web interface, and lack of an improved 
Android/iPhone (or simply "smartphone") editing app[1] are possibly some of the 
major areas to focus.

If the "next billion internet users", a term we often used to use are not 
getting involved as much as we expected, possibly "interface" is one reason 
behind it.

[1] I am aware of the currently available apps.

শুক্র, 15 অক্টো., 2021 12:03 AM তারিখে Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga 
mailto:galder...@hotmail.com>> লিখেছেন:
Dear all,
Today I learned that, despite having $100 million in the Endowment fund, we 
can't have a design team big enough to make our websites not look like they're 
stuck in 2001. I don't know if anyone is behind the wheel, but the car is 
expensive.

Sincerely,
Galder

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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Toolhub 1.0 is launched! Discover software tools used at Wikimedia

[Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga]

Thanks, Brigit, for this hub, it is great to have it! I have tried and can't 
find any way to look for tools that are not nominated as "Coolest Tool Award" 
besides looking for name. Is there a way for searching by categories?

Thanks
Galder

From: Birgit Müller 
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 4:58 PM
To: wikitech-l ; 
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org ; Wikimedia 
Cloud Services general discussion and support ; 
wikid...@lists.wikimedia.org ; 
wikitech-ambassad...@lists.wikimedia.org 

Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Toolhub 1.0 is launched! Discover software tools used at 
Wikimedia


Hi All,

We are happy to announce the launch of Toolhub 
– a community-authored catalogue that aims to make software 
tools used in 
the Wikimedia movement discoverable to everyone.


Community developed tools – including web applications, bots, gadgets, user 
scripts, lua modules, and more – play a significant role in the Wikimedia 
projects. These software applications address a wide range of use cases 
including finding bad faith edits and other content curation, bulk editing, 
collecting statistical information, creating special citations, and much more. 
About ⅓ of all edits are made by bots and tools. In addition, semi-automated 
edits are helped by user scripts, gadgets, and other editing assistance tools 
that run from the user's local computer or directly inside the wikis. There are 
thousands of tools available, but how can you find them?


With Toolhub, you can document and find 
tools, promote their use in your wiki 
community, and help improve them by contributing data. You can create and share 
lists of tools relevant to your work - for example, for GLAM tools, or for wiki 
projects such as Women in Red.


This first release provides a core set of 
functionalities, and contains 
an initial data set of about 1500 tools. Most of the initial tools in the 
catalog are imported from the same data files developers have created for Hay's 
Directory which has been a major 
inspiration for Toolhub.


Toolhub serves developers and users of tools alike. It is part of our efforts 
to improve the infrastructure and services for technical contributors, captured 
under one of Technology’s top level objectives in the FY 2020-2021 and 
2021-2022 annual plans: Tech Community 
Building.
 We hope to continue conversations with developers and users of tools, plan to 
improve Toolhub, and to further expand the functionality.


A collaborative system and open developer platform

Toolhub is built as an API driven platform that makes it possible to extend and 
remix the catalogue, and to make collecting and reusing information about tools 
as open and collaborative as we can. Everything that can be done interactively 
with the Toolhub website can also be done remotely through the API. We would 
love to hear from technical contributors interested in using the Toolhub 
API to build new tools 
that make new ways to add or consume information from Toolhub's catalog.


Our decision record 
and weekly progress 
reports on Meta 
provide more insights in technical implementation details and decisions made 
throughout the development process. The Toolhub/About 
page provides information on 
project origin, research, use cases, data model, and roadmap. This recording 
from a lightning talk at ‘21 
Wikimania gives an overview of the 
main aspects in 10 minutes.


Thank you <3

This project wouldn’t have been possible without the support, knowledge, ideas 
and prior work of many. One of the nicest side-effects of a release is that 
it’s a great opportunity to thank folks for their time and contributions :-)


  *   Husky, whose Hay's 
Directory provided the foundation for the 
data model used by Toolhub and inspired some of its features.

  *   Harej, for his invaluable 
contributions in the early stages of the Toolhub project.

  *   Our 'advisory board' - 
Giuseppe (SRE), 
Risker (editor, admin), 
Reedy (Security), 
Keegan (Community 
Relations), and Eran 
(volunteer develo

[Wikimedia-l] Re: 100$ million dollars and still obsolete

[Mike Peel]

Could be worse. We could still be using static, hand-written content, to 
create our webpages, rather than drawing information from a structured 
database, highlighting related/nearby content, etc.


Thanks,
Mike

On 14/10/21 19:56:56, Tito Dutta wrote:
Indeed, the lack or modernisation of the web interface, and lack of an 
improved Android/iPhone (or simply "smartphone") editing app[1] are 
possibly some of the major areas to focus.
If the "next billion internet users", a term we often used to use are 
not getting involved as much as we expected, possibly "interface" is one 
reason behind it.


[1] I am aware of the currently available apps.

শুক্র, 15 অক্টো., 2021 12:03 AM তারিখে Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga 
mailto:galder...@hotmail.com>> লিখেছেন:


Dear all,
Today I learned that, despite having $100 million in the Endowment
fund, we can't have a design team big enough to make our websites
not look like they're stuck in 2001. I don't know if anyone is
behind the wheel, but the car is expensive.

Sincerely,
Galder

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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Toolhub 1.0 is launched! Discover software tools used at Wikimedia

[MusikAnimal]

A long time coming! The interface looks amazing and seems very well thought
out. It's nice to have an official, single go-to for all things tools, user
scripts, gadgets, etc. Huge thanks and kudos to everyone involved!

~ MA

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 3:37 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
galder...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks, Brigit, for this hub, it is great to have it! I have tried and
> can't find any way to look for tools that are not nominated as "Coolest
> Tool Award" besides looking for name. Is there a way for searching by
> categories?
>
> Thanks
> Galder
> --
> *From:* Birgit Müller 
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 14, 2021 4:58 PM
> *To:* wikitech-l ;
> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org ;
> Wikimedia Cloud Services general discussion and support <
> cl...@lists.wikimedia.org>; wikid...@lists.wikimedia.org <
> wikid...@lists.wikimedia.org>; wikitech-ambassad...@lists.wikimedia.org <
> wikitech-ambassad...@lists.wikimedia.org>
> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Toolhub 1.0 is launched! Discover software tools
> used at Wikimedia
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> We are happy to announce the launch of Toolhub
>  – a community-authored catalogue that
> aims to make software tools
>  used in
> the Wikimedia movement discoverable to everyone.
>
> Community developed tools – including web applications, bots, gadgets,
> user scripts, lua modules, and more – play a significant role in the
> Wikimedia projects. These software applications address a wide range of use
> cases including finding bad faith edits and other content curation, bulk
> editing, collecting statistical information, creating special citations,
> and much more. About ⅓ of all edits are made by bots and tools. In
> addition, semi-automated edits are helped by user scripts, gadgets, and
> other editing assistance tools that run from the user's local computer or
> directly inside the wikis. There are thousands of tools available, but how
> can you find them?
>
> With Toolhub, you can document and find tools
> , promote their use in your wiki
> community, and help improve them by contributing data. You can create and
> share lists of tools relevant to your work - for example, for GLAM tools,
> or for wiki projects such as Women in Red.
>
> This first release provides a core set of functionalities
> , and contains an
> initial data set of about 1500 tools. Most of the initial tools in the
> catalog are imported from the same data files developers have created for 
> Hay's
> Directory  which has been a major
> inspiration for Toolhub.
>
> Toolhub serves developers and users of tools alike. It is part of our
> efforts to improve the infrastructure and services for technical
> contributors, captured under one of Technology’s top level objectives in
> the FY 2020-2021 and 2021-2022 annual plans: Tech Community Building
> .
> We hope to continue conversations with developers and users of tools, plan
> to improve Toolhub, and to further expand the functionality.
>
> A collaborative system and open developer platform
>
> Toolhub is built as an API driven platform that makes it possible to
> extend and remix the catalogue, and to make collecting and reusing
> information about tools as open and collaborative as we can. Everything
> that can be done interactively with the Toolhub website can also be done
> remotely through the API. We would love to hear from technical
> contributors interested in using the Toolhub API
>  to build new tools
> that make new ways to add or consume information from Toolhub's catalog.
>
> Our decision record
>  and weekly
> progress reports
>  on Meta
> provide more insights in technical implementation details and decisions
> made throughout the development process. The Toolhub/About page
>  provides information on
> project origin, research, use cases, data model, and roadmap. This recording
> from a lightning talk at ‘21 Wikimania
>  gives an overview of the
> main aspects in 10 minutes.
>
> Thank you <3
>
> This project wouldn’t have been possible without the support, knowledge,
> ideas and prior work of many. One of the nicest side-effects of a release
> is that it’s a great opportunity to thank folks for their time and
> contributions :-)
>
>
>-
>
>Husky , whose Hay's
>Directory  provided the
>foundation for the data model used by Toolhub and inspired 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: 100$ million dollars and still obsolete

[Jonathan Morgan]

It's not an issue of "WMF can't hire enough designers" or "WMF can't hire
good designers".

I worked for WMF in a design-adjacent role for the better part of a decade.
WMF has *excellent *designers, and in sufficient numbers to build a modern
user interface on desktop--one that *looks* modern and also prioritizes the
needs of Wikipedia's readers (editors can always load up an old skin if
they don't like the new one).

The mobile site and Wikipedia apps have a much more modern look-and-feel
and are clearly focused on making Wikipedia "work" for its largest set of
users: readers. If the desktop site lags on the design side, that may be
because when WMF has tried to make UI changes to the desktop site in the
past, or even just proposed them, they've received loud and angry push back
from members of a second (smaller, but equally important) set of users:
editors.

WMF, understandably, tries to avoid angering editors (believe it or not).

At the software company I work for now, if we make a change that annoys our
users--pretty much all of whom are "power users" with needs every bit as
complex and idiosyncratic as your average Admin--we hear about it. But no
one threatens to disable that change across the platform. And it's
relatively rare for a user to accuse us of being stupid or lazy or
malicious--at least, its rare on for that to happen on public mailing lists
or in our own forums.

That doesn't mean the stakes are any lower: if we make the software worse,
we probably lose customers. But we have the autonomy to make the changes in
the first place, see what happens, and then build from there or fix our
mistakes or even roll things back if we need to.

WMF product teams work in an environment where their competence and good
faith are frequently, and publicly, called into question. An environment
where one set of end users (editors) has a great deal of both *soft* and
*hard* power to block changes, even when those changes are intended
for--and indeed, primarily affect--a different set of end users (readers).

Speaking as someone who worked inside of that environment, I can say that
it can feel like even targeted, clearly motivated and well-justified
changes aimed at improving the reader experience aren't worth the cost.

There are plenty of other factors at play, but I'm sure I've already said
enough to anger plenty of you, so I'll leave it there.

I no longer work for WMF and my opinions are my own.

Cheers,
Jonathan Morgan
User:Jtmorgan
formerly, User:Jmorgan_(WMF)

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 11:34 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
galder...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
> Today I learned that, despite having $100 million in the Endowment fund,
> we can't have a design team big enough to make our websites not look like
> they're stuck in 2001. I don't know if anyone is behind the wheel, but the
> car is expensive.
>
> Sincerely,
> Galder
>
> ___
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Toolhub 1.0 is launched! Discover software tools used at Wikimedia

[Samuel Klein]

This is priceless.  Thank you Hay for leading the way :) and thanks to ev e
ry one who made this happen.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 4:04 PM MusikAnimal  wrote:

> A long time coming! The interface looks amazing and seems very well
> thought out. It's nice to have an official, single go-to for all things
> tools, user scripts, gadgets, etc. Huge thanks and kudos to everyone
> involved!
>
> ~ MA
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 3:37 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
> galder...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Brigit, for this hub, it is great to have it! I have tried and
>> can't find any way to look for tools that are not nominated as "Coolest
>> Tool Award" besides looking for name. Is there a way for searching by
>> categories?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Galder
>> --
>> *From:* Birgit Müller 
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 14, 2021 4:58 PM
>> *To:* wikitech-l ;
>> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org ;
>> Wikimedia Cloud Services general discussion and support <
>> cl...@lists.wikimedia.org>; wikid...@lists.wikimedia.org <
>> wikid...@lists.wikimedia.org>; wikitech-ambassad...@lists.wikimedia.org <
>> wikitech-ambassad...@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Toolhub 1.0 is launched! Discover software
>> tools used at Wikimedia
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> We are happy to announce the launch of Toolhub
>>  – a community-authored catalogue that
>> aims to make software tools
>>  used in
>> the Wikimedia movement discoverable to everyone.
>>
>> Community developed tools – including web applications, bots, gadgets,
>> user scripts, lua modules, and more – play a significant role in the
>> Wikimedia projects. These software applications address a wide range of use
>> cases including finding bad faith edits and other content curation, bulk
>> editing, collecting statistical information, creating special citations,
>> and much more. About ⅓ of all edits are made by bots and tools. In
>> addition, semi-automated edits are helped by user scripts, gadgets, and
>> other editing assistance tools that run from the user's local computer or
>> directly inside the wikis. There are thousands of tools available, but how
>> can you find them?
>>
>> With Toolhub, you can document and find tools
>> , promote their use in your
>> wiki community, and help improve them by contributing data. You can create
>> and share lists of tools relevant to your work - for example, for GLAM
>> tools, or for wiki projects such as Women in Red.
>>
>> This first release provides a core set of functionalities
>> , and contains an
>> initial data set of about 1500 tools. Most of the initial tools in the
>> catalog are imported from the same data files developers have created for 
>> Hay's
>> Directory  which has been a major
>> inspiration for Toolhub.
>>
>> Toolhub serves developers and users of tools alike. It is part of our
>> efforts to improve the infrastructure and services for technical
>> contributors, captured under one of Technology’s top level objectives in
>> the FY 2020-2021 and 2021-2022 annual plans: Tech Community Building
>> .
>> We hope to continue conversations with developers and users of tools,
>> plan to improve Toolhub, and to further expand the functionality.
>>
>> A collaborative system and open developer platform
>>
>> Toolhub is built as an API driven platform that makes it possible to
>> extend and remix the catalogue, and to make collecting and reusing
>> information about tools as open and collaborative as we can. Everything
>> that can be done interactively with the Toolhub website can also be done
>> remotely through the API. We would love to hear from technical
>> contributors interested in using the Toolhub API
>>  to build new
>> tools that make new ways to add or consume information from Toolhub's
>> catalog.
>>
>> Our decision record
>>  and weekly
>> progress reports
>>  on Meta
>> provide more insights in technical implementation details and decisions
>> made throughout the development process. The Toolhub/About page
>>  provides information on
>> project origin, research, use cases, data model, and roadmap. This recording
>> from a lightning talk at ‘21 Wikimania
>>  gives an overview of the
>> main aspects in 10 minutes.
>>
>> Thank you <3
>>
>> This project wouldn’t have been possible without the support, knowledge,
>> ideas and prior work of many. One of the nicest side-effects of a release
>> is that it’s a great opportunity

[Wikimedia-l] Re: 100$ million dollars and still obsolete

[Risker]

Jonathan's comment made me smile.  To be honest, it's something that
crossed my mind too.  I mean...the Wikipedia community can have endless
arguments about the use of the Oxford comma.  We are masters at arguing
over what colour the bikeshed should be.  There are definitely times where
developer actions have caused sufficient harm that the Wikimedia community
is up in arms; this is not an organization where "move fast and break
things" works very well.  Unfortunately, those relatively rare occurrences
are what people remember all the time.  We don't remember that these same
teams have worked out systems so that we no longer have a situation where
every time an upgrade is loaded, it breaks the big projects.  We don't
remember that multiple-hour-long downtimes were commonplace.  We don't
remember that, in fact, a very significant amount of editing is done on the
mobile site. (There used to be a report about that but I've no idea where
to find it now.)  It's the human condition to remember situations that have
made us unhappy or even angry, while situations that have little obvious
impact are completely forgotten.  Bottom line, the developers have made
tens of thousands of improvements to the site that rarely, if ever, get
noted or even recognized. We only remember the times when they've done
something that really caused problems.

A lot of the challenges that are faced by designers and developers have to
do with inconsistent or narrow feedback from the editorial community, not
to mention diametrically opposed requests to change the same thing in
different ways.  It's one thing to say that X is really awful. It's another
thing to work with a cross-section of the community (i.e. hundreds of
people, if not thousands across several projects) to figure out what
improvements to X should look like, and gain consensus on those desired
improvements.  For every person who complains about X being awful, there
are often an equal or greater number of people saying "don't touch X! I
rely on it being exactly as it is!"

It's important and valuable to start these discussions, but let's not start
off with "this group isn't doing its job the way I think they should".
Let's start with "how can I influence the community to identify what needs
to be improved, and get agreements that the developers can count on in
order to proceed."

And yes, I know full well how very hard this is, for everyone involved.
It's not a criticism of anyone participating in this thread.

Risker/Anne





On Thu, 14 Oct 2021 at 17:35, Jonathan Morgan 
wrote:

> It's not an issue of "WMF can't hire enough designers" or "WMF can't hire
> good designers".
>
> I worked for WMF in a design-adjacent role for the better part of a
> decade. WMF has *excellent *designers, and in sufficient numbers to build
> a modern user interface on desktop--one that *looks* modern and also
> prioritizes the needs of Wikipedia's readers (editors can always load up an
> old skin if they don't like the new one).
>
> The mobile site and Wikipedia apps have a much more modern look-and-feel
> and are clearly focused on making Wikipedia "work" for its largest set of
> users: readers. If the desktop site lags on the design side, that may be
> because when WMF has tried to make UI changes to the desktop site in the
> past, or even just proposed them, they've received loud and angry push back
> from members of a second (smaller, but equally important) set of users:
> editors.
>
> WMF, understandably, tries to avoid angering editors (believe it or not).
>
> At the software company I work for now, if we make a change that annoys
> our users--pretty much all of whom are "power users" with needs every bit
> as complex and idiosyncratic as your average Admin--we hear about it. But
> no one threatens to disable that change across the platform. And it's
> relatively rare for a user to accuse us of being stupid or lazy or
> malicious--at least, its rare on for that to happen on public mailing lists
> or in our own forums.
>
> That doesn't mean the stakes are any lower: if we make the software worse,
> we probably lose customers. But we have the autonomy to make the changes in
> the first place, see what happens, and then build from there or fix our
> mistakes or even roll things back if we need to.
>
> WMF product teams work in an environment where their competence and good
> faith are frequently, and publicly, called into question. An environment
> where one set of end users (editors) has a great deal of both *soft* and
> *hard* power to block changes, even when those changes are intended
> for--and indeed, primarily affect--a different set of end users (readers).
>
> Speaking as someone who worked inside of that environment, I can say that
> it can feel like even targeted, clearly motivated and well-justified
> changes aimed at improving the reader experience aren't worth the cost.
>
> There are plenty of other factors at play, but I'm sure I've already said
> enough to anger plenty of you,

[Wikimedia-l] Re: 100$ million dollars and still obsolete

[Heather Walls]

I was going to write something similar to Jonathan, but now I can just
support what he said.

If there are folks in the communities who desire changes to the sites,
building a group of supporters and/or becoming invested in what it is
really like to make those changes *socially* not technically, is likely to
be more effective than pointing at WMF and saying they are not interested,
not capable, or not resourced enough.

Thanks, Jmo!



On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 2:35 PM Jonathan Morgan 
wrote:

> It's not an issue of "WMF can't hire enough designers" or "WMF can't hire
> good designers".
>
> I worked for WMF in a design-adjacent role for the better part of a
> decade. WMF has *excellent *designers, and in sufficient numbers to build
> a modern user interface on desktop--one that *looks* modern and also
> prioritizes the needs of Wikipedia's readers (editors can always load up an
> old skin if they don't like the new one).
>
> The mobile site and Wikipedia apps have a much more modern look-and-feel
> and are clearly focused on making Wikipedia "work" for its largest set of
> users: readers. If the desktop site lags on the design side, that may be
> because when WMF has tried to make UI changes to the desktop site in the
> past, or even just proposed them, they've received loud and angry push back
> from members of a second (smaller, but equally important) set of users:
> editors.
>
> WMF, understandably, tries to avoid angering editors (believe it or not).
>
> At the software company I work for now, if we make a change that annoys
> our users--pretty much all of whom are "power users" with needs every bit
> as complex and idiosyncratic as your average Admin--we hear about it. But
> no one threatens to disable that change across the platform. And it's
> relatively rare for a user to accuse us of being stupid or lazy or
> malicious--at least, its rare on for that to happen on public mailing lists
> or in our own forums.
>
> That doesn't mean the stakes are any lower: if we make the software worse,
> we probably lose customers. But we have the autonomy to make the changes in
> the first place, see what happens, and then build from there or fix our
> mistakes or even roll things back if we need to.
>
> WMF product teams work in an environment where their competence and good
> faith are frequently, and publicly, called into question. An environment
> where one set of end users (editors) has a great deal of both *soft* and
> *hard* power to block changes, even when those changes are intended
> for--and indeed, primarily affect--a different set of end users (readers).
>
> Speaking as someone who worked inside of that environment, I can say that
> it can feel like even targeted, clearly motivated and well-justified
> changes aimed at improving the reader experience aren't worth the cost.
>
> There are plenty of other factors at play, but I'm sure I've already said
> enough to anger plenty of you, so I'll leave it there.
>
> I no longer work for WMF and my opinions are my own.
>
> Cheers,
> Jonathan Morgan
> User:Jtmorgan
> formerly, User:Jmorgan_(WMF)
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 11:34 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
> galder...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>> Today I learned that, despite having $100 million in the Endowment fund,
>> we can't have a design team big enough to make our websites not look like
>> they're stuck in 2001. I don't know if anyone is behind the wheel, but the
>> car is expensive.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Galder
>>
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