[Wikimedia-l] Re: Subject: Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Butch Bustria]

I would second Risker's call.

Let me rephrase my words earlier. My apologies, I wrote it past midnight in
my time zone and I might have been half awake.
To put in context, if the concern is addressed to affcom, it should be
addressed via an affiliate executive as authorised by their board
committee. If it is addressed to a Wikimedia staff, it should be to their
line manager or a higher rank position. If there is an ombudsperson or
ethics committee hotline (or email), that is the right forum to complain.

In a nutshell, in a professional setting, telling private level matters in
a wide public space is totally out of order. We should observe dequorum.

Thanks.


Kind regards,

Butch



On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 7:41 AM Risker  wrote:

> I think at this point it is time to take this matter off this mailing
> list.  I think we have all learned more than we ever expected to know about
> the Wikimedia Slovakia user group.
>
> Risker/Anne
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Nathan]

It doesn't? Killing threads used to be a regular event.

Wild that all of this appears to be over a disputed 100 euro payment.

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 7:41 PM Risker  wrote:

> I think at this point it is time to take this matter off this mailing
> list.  I think we have all learned more than we ever expected to know about
> the Wikimedia Slovakia user group.
>
> It is unfortunate that the software doesn't permit locking of threads.
>
> Risker/Anne
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Risker]

 I think at this point it is time to take this matter off this mailing
list.  I think we have all learned more than we ever expected to know about
the Wikimedia Slovakia user group.

It is unfortunate that the software doesn't permit locking of threads.

Risker/Anne
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Subject: Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Risker]

I think at this point it is time to take this matter off this mailing
list.  I think we have all learned more than we ever expected to know about
the Wikimedia Slovakia user group.

Risker/Anne
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Michal Matúšov]

Radoslava,

I hoped that the next time for me to contribute here I would only slightly
correct some small misunderstandings... But with you it is going to be more
than slightly... Nevertheless, you have personally addressed me, so...

Also, please the next time respect the topic of this thread and do not mix
it with others (it is about AffCom / Manavpreet, not about Matej / WUG
WMSVK).

First of all, I am *not* doing personal attacks. It may seem like that
because in order to interact about human happenings it is quite
necessary to talk about persons. (violations are not happening by
themselves, they are persons who do them - for someone these can be hard to
distinct...) But if you would look at my messages with effort to
understand, you would (hopefully) get that I am pursuing truth and
agreements and want people to honor their agreements (as AffCom is required
by the Board of Trustees to follow the WMF Guiding Principles).

My informations (not accusations, as you have presented!) stays on solid
ground. This list is not an appropriate place to present them (especially
as there is going to be a dedicated investigation of AffCom in about 2
weeks, and AffCom is already working to help WUG WMSVK), but in private I
have already provided much, much, much more than reasonable evidence to
you, to WMSVK and to AffCom and personally helped you to understand it.
Some of this evidence is publicly available, so if someone want to find it,
it is possible. The evidence also put a big asterisk on your statement that
"Matej is a good and fair chairman", or maybe we have very different
understanding of these terms.

Also, you are a Board member of WUG WMSVK and you are highly responsible
for some situations that are exhausting you now. If you really want  them
to stop, you are in a great position to do meaningful actions - I have
already provided some recommendations what specifically WUG WMSVK can do to
get on track on honoring its User Group Agreement ;-)

Best regards
KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)


st 27. 10. 2021 o 0:20 Radoslava F. Semanova 
napísal(a):

> Michal,
>
> stop those personal attacks. No one lies to you, nor to anyone else. Matej
> is a good and fair chairman. I am exhausted from watching time and again
> your unfounded accusations on Matej, me, and whoever you mind. Please, stop
> it!
>
> Radoslava Semanová
> Vice-chair of Wikimedians Slovakia User group
>
> ut 26. 10. 2021 o 21:55 Michal Matúšov 
> napísal(a):
>
>> Hi.
>>
>> Just a small factual update:
>>
>> In the presented list of issues there is:
>> "Allegedly AffCom informed representatives of WUG WMSVK that it was me
>> who canceled the proposed mediation about WUG WMSVK's long-term bylaws
>> violations (while it is false - I haven't cancelled it) and AffCom never
>> ever confirmed to me whether it really provided this false information (to
>> my best Knowledge it was AffCom (or maybe someone who ordered it to
>> AffCom?) who canceled the mediation; but AffCom never clarified it to me
>> even after my explicit requests)"
>>
>> Thanks to Matej Grochal, the Chair of WUG WMSVK, who has shed light on
>> this topic! He confirmed that AffCom did **not** make this untruthful
>> communication to WUG WMSVK (as he had stated before). Rather, Grochal /
>> WMSVK have connected some data points in a wrong way, came to wrong
>> conclusion and presented it as a clear truth about someone else behaviour.
>> Although, it would be definitely helpful if AffCom would clearly stated
>> it when I have asked it. So we could move forward sooner and not waste
>> time, effort and energy asking AffCom for answer and WUG WMSVK for proof.
>>
>> Regards
>> KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
>>
>>
>> po 25. 10. 2021 o 12:32 Michal Matúšov 
>> napísal(a):
>>
>>> Dear Mehman (and Wikimedia folks in copy for transparency),
>>>
>>> I am contacting you as you are currently the highest responsible person
>>> (Vice-Chair) in the Affiliations Committee.
>>>
>>> As Manavpreet Kaur (current AffCom's Staff Liaison) is candidating for
>>> a Movement Charter Drafting Committee, and AffCom is for (at least) months
>>> showing issues about its work, which I consider that would be detrimental
>>> for the work of the Movement Charter Drafting Committee if they would be
>>> present there, and it is unclear what it Manavpreet's role in these
>>> AffCom's issues, I ask you to  publicly respond to the questions below. (I
>>> have already asked Manavpreet to respond them but she have stated that she
>>> won't be able to respond them [1] [2])
>>>
>>> (I present the questions first and the context below, so it is easier
>>> for low-involved folks to get the core part)
>>>
>>> *Questions:*
>>>
>>>
>>>1. *Do you personally consider the AffCom's happenings presented
>>>below to be in line with Wikimedia Foundation Guiding Principles
>>>
>>>  
>>> (especially Transparency and Accountability)?*
>>>   1. *If not, has 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise

[Asaf Bartov]

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 11:56 PM Todd Allen  wrote:

> That "strategy" crap is from WMF, not the communities, and matters not one
> bit.
>

You will not refer to hundreds of other people's hard work as "crap" on
this list, Todd.  You have been placed on moderation.  You are welcome to
continue contributing to the list, including -- I stress this -- expressing
criticism of the Strategy and of the Wikimedia Foundation -- but only if
you manage to do it in a civil and respectful tone.

On behalf of the list admins,

Asaf
   (volunteer capacity)
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Radoslava F. Semanova]

Michal,

stop those personal attacks. No one lies to you, nor to anyone else. Matej
is a good and fair chairman. I am exhausted from watching time and again
your unfounded accusations on Matej, me, and whoever you mind. Please, stop
it!

Radoslava Semanová
Vice-chair of Wikimedians Slovakia User group

ut 26. 10. 2021 o 21:55 Michal Matúšov 
napísal(a):

> Hi.
>
> Just a small factual update:
>
> In the presented list of issues there is:
> "Allegedly AffCom informed representatives of WUG WMSVK that it was me who
> canceled the proposed mediation about WUG WMSVK's long-term bylaws
> violations (while it is false - I haven't cancelled it) and AffCom never
> ever confirmed to me whether it really provided this false information (to
> my best Knowledge it was AffCom (or maybe someone who ordered it to
> AffCom?) who canceled the mediation; but AffCom never clarified it to me
> even after my explicit requests)"
>
> Thanks to Matej Grochal, the Chair of WUG WMSVK, who has shed light on
> this topic! He confirmed that AffCom did **not** make this untruthful
> communication to WUG WMSVK (as he had stated before). Rather, Grochal /
> WMSVK have connected some data points in a wrong way, came to wrong
> conclusion and presented it as a clear truth about someone else behaviour.
> Although, it would be definitely helpful if AffCom would clearly stated it
> when I have asked it. So we could move forward sooner and not waste time,
> effort and energy asking AffCom for answer and WUG WMSVK for proof.
>
> Regards
> KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
>
>
> po 25. 10. 2021 o 12:32 Michal Matúšov 
> napísal(a):
>
>> Dear Mehman (and Wikimedia folks in copy for transparency),
>>
>> I am contacting you as you are currently the highest responsible person
>> (Vice-Chair) in the Affiliations Committee.
>>
>> As Manavpreet Kaur (current AffCom's Staff Liaison) is candidating for
>> a Movement Charter Drafting Committee, and AffCom is for (at least) months
>> showing issues about its work, which I consider that would be detrimental
>> for the work of the Movement Charter Drafting Committee if they would be
>> present there, and it is unclear what it Manavpreet's role in these
>> AffCom's issues, I ask you to  publicly respond to the questions below. (I
>> have already asked Manavpreet to respond them but she have stated that she
>> won't be able to respond them [1] [2])
>>
>> (I present the questions first and the context below, so it is easier for
>> low-involved folks to get the core part)
>>
>> *Questions:*
>>
>>
>>1. *Do you personally consider the AffCom's happenings presented
>>below to be in line with Wikimedia Foundation Guiding Principles
>> 
>> (especially Transparency and Accountability)?*
>>   1. *If not, has Manavpreet done already something to rectify
>>   AffCom's activity to be in full alignment with them? What
>>   has Manavpreet done?*
>>   2. *If yes, please briefly clarify how (in your opinion) they are
>>   showing Transparency and Accountability.*
>>2. *What is Manavpreet's role in the AffCom's happenings presented
>>below?* (have Manavpreet supported / encouraged / decided them? or
>>have Manavpreet tried to prevent them / discourage them? or have 
>> Manavpreet
>>just fully neutraly executed decisions that leaded to them? have 
>> Manavpreet
>>presented objections that the decisions are against Wikimedia Foundation
>>Guiding Principles or similar rules / recommendations / ...? or something
>>else? please be concrete)
>>3. As much of the presented cases show AffCom's issues about clear,
>>proactive communication, *do you consider Manavpreet to be capable
>>enough to clearly, proactively, helpfully communicate in the high
>>responsibility role of Movement Charter Drafting Committee member?*
>>   1. *If it is not Manavpreet who is the source of AffCom's
>>   communication issues, who is?*
>>4. *Do you believe that Manavpreet will not "import" AffCom-like
>>issues to the Movement Charter Drafting Committee? If yes, on what basis?*
>>
>>
>> *Context:*
>>
>> I am in contact with Manavpreet mostly because of her role of Staff
>> Liaison of Affiliations Committee
>>  (AffCom), which
>> relates with my roles of (ex)Chair of some Wikimedia Affiliations. While
>> AffCom have for years reputation of slowresponsedness, it was understanable
>> because of its structure (which, in turn, is understanable because of its
>> high responsibilities) and was rather only a little anoyance, not a big
>> deal. But that have changed (for worse) at least several months ago and
>> AffCom is still very reluctant to provide more information about it.
>> Several specific cases for ilustration:
>>
>>- AffCom put on hold the recognition of User Group Esperanto and Free
>>Knowledge
>>
>> 

[Wikimedia-l] Subject: Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Matej Grochal]

Dear all

this is Matej Grochal, chair of Wikimedians of Slovakia and one of the
parties in the conflict. I am just coming into the discussion as I was not
aware of it from the beginning and was not a member of this mailing list.

Let me offer you my input on this matter.

About a year ago, Mr Matúšov and I (representing WMSK) agreed on mediation.
AffCom was to be the mediator. We had an individual call in December 2020
with AffCom but WMSK and I pushed for having a mediation call of both
parties and AffCom as the mediator. After some coordination during spring
2021, AffCom called off the mediation just as it seemed that it was going
to go ahead. The reason given was that both sides do not agree to the terms
of mediation. We emailed back for clarification while restating our
commitment to proceed with it. Around the time I reached out to Mr Matúšov
who seemed perplexed that the mediation had been cancelled and committed
himself as well. Not having a clear understanding of the situation, I
contacted AffCom who replied that mediation would not proceed due to
differences already mentioned. Since our commitment was clear, we wanted to
know what happened. They informed us that Mr Matúšov was of a different
mind about mediation and so it could not go ahead. (Not very surprising
since there are two parties to the mediation). This was somewhat perplexing
still so I kept in touch with Mr Matúšov and made sure we are on the same
page about what mediation means. We were. However, I also came to
understand that he was indeed not ready for mediation. The same conclusion
was reached from further communication with him and AffCom during the fall
of 2021.
Even if AffCom did not state explicitly that it was Mr Matúšov who
cancelled the mediation, they would have every right to do so. His mind set
did not allow it to proceed and he effectively cancelled the process. The
matter was further complicated by the fact that despite waiting for
mediation, Mr Matúšov kept posting his grievances in various places around
the community after having agreed not to do so with AffCom. I will let you
judge whether this is acting in good faith.
To sum up: while AffCom could have been somewhat faster and more clear on
certain issues, I would not blame AffCom for providing false information. I
would also appreciate if accusations of providing false behaviour were less
lightly thrown.

Thank you

Matej Grochal
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[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Enterprise website (was: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise)

[Andreas Kolbe]

Dear Liam,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your notification two weeks ago, as linked in
your post below, did not even include the https://enterprise.wikimedia.com/
URL. All you said was this:

The launch of the project’s standalone website, denoting the service as
“open for business”, will take place early next week.

(As far as I can tell, nothing actually happened that week – the website
and press release only went live yesterday.)

If you give notification weeks in advance, don't advise list members of the
website's URL, and don't give them a firm date when the site will be up,
you are surely bound to reduce the number of people checking the site out.

If you and your colleagues want to keep members here up to date on things
like this, and welcome them to look at what you've built, couldn't you send
a post to this mailing list the day you turn the lights on, complete with
the URL, and invite everyone to have a look around?

Given that it is the work of the volunteers that is being sold on that
site, this  would only seem right.

Regards,
Andreas




Yes the website , and press release
> ,
> were "launched" yesterday.
> Yes, notification was given on this mailing list
> 
>  two
> weeks ago, as well as several others - including wikitech-l, affiliates-l.
> That message included various new pieces of documentation (including Board
> statement relating to revenue principles, methods of free-access to the
> service for community, forthcoming public 'office hours' meetings).
> Moreover, it also included notification of this impending launch.
>
> - Liam
>


Nowhere in this thread do I see the URL of the enterprise.wikimedia.com
website.






> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 17:35, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>
>> The Wikimedia Enterprise site surely is up:
>> https://enterprise.wikimedia.com/pricing/
>>
>> Did I miss an announcement here on this mailing list?
>>
>> At least there was a WMF blog post:
>> https://wikimediafoundation.org/news/2021/10/25/wikimedia-foundation-launches-wikimedia-enterprise-the-new-opt-in-product-for-companies-and-organizations-to-easily-reuse-content-from-wikipedia-and-wikimedia-projects/
>>
>> Anders: The best thing that could happen to Wikipedia would be to have a
>> competitor. Think about it for a moment, for God's sake.
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 3:55 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
>> galder...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear wikimedians,
>>> Some years ago, I visited Uzbekistan. I was shocked and amused to find
>>> that the largest paper note was 2.000 soʻm at that time, with a plan to
>>> start with the 5.000 paper note soon. The most used one still was the 1.000
>>> soʻm note, that was about 35 US cents in the bank and about 20 US cents in
>>> the street markets. So, the first time we changed two 100 USD$ paper notes
>>> into soʻm we got around 800 paper notes in bunches of 100. It was quite
>>> interesting to note that people in the street went with black plastic bags
>>> full of money in order to buy at the market or get a taxi ride. Some days
>>> later, I talked to a local taxi driver and he told me that when he bought
>>> his car, he needed a small truck to carry all the paper notes to the car
>>> selling store. Of course, I took that as a joke. Then another man said that
>>> many houses have a room only for storing money, so you can buy a larger
>>> house in the future. I don't know if this was a practical joke, but that's
>>> how it was.
>>>
>>> Yesterday we launched Wikimedia Enterprise. This e-mail is not to show
>>> my disagreement with the idea itself, but with the outcome. It seems that
>>> the purpose of Wikimedia Entrerprise is to have a large money revenue
>>> offering volunteer's time and content to the rich who are willing to pay
>>> for a better API. Believe it or not, I like to tax the rich.
>>>
>>> We have millions of dollars in our money room, and, if everything goes
>>> as planned with Wikimedia Enterprise, we will soon need to buy a new house
>>> to have a larger room to store all those cheques, notes and assets. The
>>> room will soon look huge and plenty of money. Still, there's no plan to
>>> paint the house, arrange the sofa, solve the water leakage we have in the
>>> toilet, mow the lawn or buy a new set of pans so we can cook healthy food
>>> there. Soon, the cow will start aging and won't have more milk to sell. But
>>> yes, the money room will be huge. We will have more and more and more
>>> millions, but we will still... yes... obsolete.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Galder
>>>
>>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise

[Todd Allen]

You put in a URL that links to one. And there, you're done.

Having a "howto" gadget like that is not the purpose of an article. The
purpose of an article is to describe, not have a "simulator". A URL to one
on some other site in the external links section might be quite in
order, but that is out of scope for Wikipedia itself.

We should never try to be everything to everyone. We have a clear and
defined scope, and we should stick to it.

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 11:57 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
galder...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or
> even particularly hard. "
>
> I don't assume it, just we can't do it:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T169027 or
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T238259
>
>
> If you know a way to do this kind of interactive content in any given
> wiki, we could go forward fast.
> --
> *From:* Strainu 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 26, 2021 7:45 PM
> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List 
> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
> Enterprise
>
>
>
> Pe marți, 26 octombrie 2021, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
> galder...@hotmail.com> a scris:
> > Anders: we can't add a physics simulator.
>
> We totally can. It takes programming knowledge and a technical
> administrator, but it's possible.
>
> Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or
> even particularly hard. What's nearly impossible is to scale such
> initiatives in a meaningful manner (I.e. over 250+ languages).
>
> Strainu
>
> (https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Physics-Interactives/Newtons-Laws).
> This is not "info wars", this is being useful. And we can't do it
> because... well, because we are... obsolete.
> >
> > 
> > From: Anders Wennersten 
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 6:02 PM
> > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
> Enterprise
> >
> >
> > We have an army of volunteers to guarantee correctness and that issues
> of controversies are dealt with in a way that hopefully all parties can
> accept
> >
> > we have no cookies or technical things that make us follow up on our
> editors, truly believing in the full integrity of our users
> >
> > our financial and governing set up is fully independent of an third party
> >
> > Our reading interface works well for our users and on most platforms
> (which is made easier with no technical smarties)
> >
> > Our interface can be made better for editors, but this does not make it
> as a phenomenon obsolete
> >
> > In the info war we are in, it is beer to be on the "boring" side with
> few or none smart gadgets then being too smart and open for foul play by
> parties that want to undermine our system by clever hackers
> >
> > Anders
> >
> > Den 2021-10-26 kl. 17:37, skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga:
> >
> > Thanks Anders,
> > "We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this would
> imply that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we still, in 2021,
> can't do this things (you can help by expanding this list):
> >
> > Simultaneous edition
> > Auto-save in sandbox
> > Publishing from sandbox
> > Upload MP4 files
> > Render correctly vectorial files
> > Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects
> > Have a modern look
> > Have cross-project templates and modules
> > Visual edit from mobile
> > Create visually interesting cartography
> > Hear the articles
> > Export multiple articles as a pdf/doc (whatever)
> > ...
> > 
> >
> > Someone will answer to this message talking about the "Wishlist survey"
> every year we have. This scarcity generating system also gives funny
> outcomes. Let's take the 2019 survey. 10 projects were voted. Only 4 done:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results.
> Or the 2017 one:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results.
> Some projects where done, some not and there are some that are external
> tools that you have to use as a gadget.
> >
> > Students are relying on YouTube to learn things. We are obsolete. Very
> obsolete.
> > Galder
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: Anders Wennersten 
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:23 PM
> > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
> Enterprise
> >
> > "We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still...
> > yes... obsolete." Galder
> >
> >
> > What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for
> > common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?
> >
> > I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia
> > has been launched.
> >
> > I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common
> > knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google
> > very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Dynamic content on Wikipedia (was: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise)

[Strainu]

Pe marți, 26 octombrie 2021, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
galder...@hotmail.com> a scris:
> I think that the WMF has a whole departament devoted to product.

They still need to balance between the requests of millions of readers, 70K
users and tens of affiliates.


> This is not about someone trying to get some money, is about University
professors that have asked directly how they can upload their dynamic
content to wikipedia and they didn't have a way.

What format/software/technologies are they using? How are they publishing
on the web? Is there a free alternative?

How often do they update their visualizations? How many articles would
benefit from such a feature? Can a mathematician or a biologist reuse the
same software? Can a template editor edit such a visualization?

These are all details of a simple question: are you sure this can be done
within the constraints of the movement?

Also keep in mind that "Dynamic content" is a huge umbrella. Other parts of
the puzzle are far more advanced, clearly more impactul and still not
getting enough love.

Strainu


How can a regular Physicist in Uzbekistan upload it without knowing someone
who knows someone who could fill a grant proposal? Is like asking a grant
proposal to be able to upload a video!
>
>
>
> 2021(e)ko urr. 26(a) 20:13 erabiltzaileak hau idatzi du (Strainu <
strain...@gmail.com>):
>
> Changing subject, this is no joke.
>
> Pe marți, 26 octombrie 2021, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
galder...@hotmail.com> a scris:
>> "Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible
or even particularly hard. "
>> I don't assume it, just we can't do it:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T169027 or
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T238259
>
> As a matter of fact, these 2 tickets say it's totally possible to have
dynamic content on Wikipedia, just not by an average user. They even have
examples of dynamic content.
>
> What I don't see there (I just skimmed the content though) is a list of
requirements for what we want to achieve. Are there big classes of similar
visualizations that could be done with simple customizations that a
semi-technical person (think:excel user) could do?
>
> You could start from there and have someone write a project grant
proposal for such a project.
>
> Strainu
>>
>>
>> If you know a way to do this kind of interactive content in any given
wiki, we could go forward fast.
>> 
>> From: Strainu 
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 7:45 PM
>> To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
Enterprise
>>
>>
>> Pe marți, 26 octombrie 2021, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
galder...@hotmail.com> a scris:
>>> Anders: we can't add a physics simulator.
>>
>> We totally can. It takes programming knowledge and a technical
administrator, but it's possible.
>>
>> Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or
even particularly hard. What's nearly impossible is to scale such
initiatives in a meaningful manner (I.e. over 250+ languages).
>>
>> Strainu
>>
>> (https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Physics-Interactives/Newtons-Laws).
This is not "info wars", this is being useful. And we can't do it
because... well, because we are... obsolete.
>>>
>>> 
>>> From: Anders Wennersten 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 6:02 PM
>>> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
>>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
Enterprise
>>>
>>>
>>> We have an army of volunteers to guarantee correctness and that issues
of controversies are dealt with in a way that hopefully all parties can
accept
>>>
>>> we have no cookies or technical things that make us follow up on our
editors, truly believing in the full integrity of our users
>>>
>>> our financial and governing set up is fully independent of an third
party
>>>
>>> Our reading interface works well for our users and on most platforms
(which is made easier with no technical smarties)
>>>
>>> Our interface can be made better for editors, but this does not make it
as a phenomenon obsolete
>>>
>>> In the info war we are in, it is beer to be on the "boring" side with
few or none smart gadgets then being too smart and open for foul play by
parties that want to undermine our system by clever hackers
>>>
>>> Anders
>>>
>>> Den 2021-10-26 kl. 17:37, skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga:
>>>
>>> Thanks Anders,
>>> "We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this
would imply that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we still, in
2021, can't do this things (you can help by expanding this list):
>>>
>>> Simultaneous edition
>>> Auto-save in sandbox
>>> Publishing from sandbox
>>> Upload MP4 files
>>> Render correctly vectorial files
>>> Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects
>>> Have a modern look
>>> Have cross-project templates and modules
>>> Visual edit from mobile
>>> Create visually interesting cartography
>>> Hear the 

[Wikimedia-l] Dynamic content on Wikipedia (was: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise)

[Strainu]

Changing subject, this is no joke.

Pe marți, 26 octombrie 2021, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
galder...@hotmail.com> a scris:
> "Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or
even particularly hard. "
> I don't assume it, just we can't do it:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T169027 or
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T238259

As a matter of fact, these 2 tickets say it's totally possible to have
dynamic content on Wikipedia, just not by an average user. They even have
examples of dynamic content.

What I don't see there (I just skimmed the content though) is a list of
requirements for what we want to achieve. Are there big classes of similar
visualizations that could be done with simple customizations that a
semi-technical person (think:excel user) could do?

You could start from there and have someone write a project grant proposal
for such a project.

Strainu
>
>
> If you know a way to do this kind of interactive content in any given
wiki, we could go forward fast.
> 
> From: Strainu 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 7:45 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
Enterprise
>
>
> Pe marți, 26 octombrie 2021, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
galder...@hotmail.com> a scris:
>> Anders: we can't add a physics simulator.
>
> We totally can. It takes programming knowledge and a technical
administrator, but it's possible.
>
> Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or
even particularly hard. What's nearly impossible is to scale such
initiatives in a meaningful manner (I.e. over 250+ languages).
>
> Strainu
>
> (https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Physics-Interactives/Newtons-Laws).
This is not "info wars", this is being useful. And we can't do it
because... well, because we are... obsolete.
>>
>> 
>> From: Anders Wennersten 
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 6:02 PM
>> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
Enterprise
>>
>>
>> We have an army of volunteers to guarantee correctness and that issues
of controversies are dealt with in a way that hopefully all parties can
accept
>>
>> we have no cookies or technical things that make us follow up on our
editors, truly believing in the full integrity of our users
>>
>> our financial and governing set up is fully independent of an third party
>>
>> Our reading interface works well for our users and on most platforms
(which is made easier with no technical smarties)
>>
>> Our interface can be made better for editors, but this does not make it
as a phenomenon obsolete
>>
>> In the info war we are in, it is beer to be on the "boring" side with
few or none smart gadgets then being too smart and open for foul play by
parties that want to undermine our system by clever hackers
>>
>> Anders
>>
>> Den 2021-10-26 kl. 17:37, skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga:
>>
>> Thanks Anders,
>> "We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this would
imply that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we still, in 2021,
can't do this things (you can help by expanding this list):
>>
>> Simultaneous edition
>> Auto-save in sandbox
>> Publishing from sandbox
>> Upload MP4 files
>> Render correctly vectorial files
>> Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects
>> Have a modern look
>> Have cross-project templates and modules
>> Visual edit from mobile
>> Create visually interesting cartography
>> Hear the articles
>> Export multiple articles as a pdf/doc (whatever)
>> ...
>> 
>>
>> Someone will answer to this message talking about the "Wishlist survey"
every year we have. This scarcity generating system also gives funny
outcomes. Let's take the 2019 survey. 10 projects were voted. Only 4 done:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results. Or
the 2017 one:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results.
Some projects where done, some not and there are some that are external
tools that you have to use as a gadget.
>>
>> Students are relying on YouTube to learn things. We are obsolete. Very
obsolete.
>> Galder
>>
>>
>> 
>> From: Anders Wennersten 
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:23 PM
>> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
Enterprise
>>
>> "We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still...
>> yes... obsolete." Galder
>>
>>
>> What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for
>> common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?
>>
>> I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia
>> has been launched.
>>
>> I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common
>> knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google
>> very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise

[Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga]

"Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or even 
particularly hard. "

I don't assume it, just we can't do it: 
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T169027 or 
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T238259


If you know a way to do this kind of interactive content in any given wiki, we 
could go forward fast.

From: Strainu 
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 7:45 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise



Pe marți, 26 octombrie 2021, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga 
mailto:galder...@hotmail.com>> a scris:
> Anders: we can't add a physics simulator.

We totally can. It takes programming knowledge and a technical administrator, 
but it's possible.

Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or even 
particularly hard. What's nearly impossible is to scale such initiatives in a 
meaningful manner (I.e. over 250+ languages).

Strainu

(https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Physics-Interactives/Newtons-Laws). This is 
not "info wars", this is being useful. And we can't do it because... well, 
because we are... obsolete.
>
> 
> From: Anders Wennersten 
> mailto:m...@anderswennersten.se>>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 6:02 PM
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
>
>
> We have an army of volunteers to guarantee correctness and that issues of 
> controversies are dealt with in a way that hopefully all parties can accept
>
> we have no cookies or technical things that make us follow up on our editors, 
> truly believing in the full integrity of our users
>
> our financial and governing set up is fully independent of an third party
>
> Our reading interface works well for our users and on most platforms (which 
> is made easier with no technical smarties)
>
> Our interface can be made better for editors, but this does not make it as a 
> phenomenon obsolete
>
> In the info war we are in, it is beer to be on the "boring" side with few or 
> none smart gadgets then being too smart and open for foul play by parties 
> that want to undermine our system by clever hackers
>
> Anders
>
> Den 2021-10-26 kl. 17:37, skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga:
>
> Thanks Anders,
> "We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this would 
> imply that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we still, in 2021, 
> can't do this things (you can help by expanding this list):
>
> Simultaneous edition
> Auto-save in sandbox
> Publishing from sandbox
> Upload MP4 files
> Render correctly vectorial files
> Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects
> Have a modern look
> Have cross-project templates and modules
> Visual edit from mobile
> Create visually interesting cartography
> Hear the articles
> Export multiple articles as a pdf/doc (whatever)
> ...
> 
>
> Someone will answer to this message talking about the "Wishlist survey" every 
> year we have. This scarcity generating system also gives funny outcomes. 
> Let's take the 2019 survey. 10 projects were voted. Only 4 done: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results. Or 
> the 2017 one: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results. Some 
> projects where done, some not and there are some that are external tools that 
> you have to use as a gadget.
>
> Students are relying on YouTube to learn things. We are obsolete. Very 
> obsolete.
> Galder
>
>
> 
> From: Anders Wennersten 
> mailto:m...@anderswennersten.se>>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:23 PM
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
>
> "We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still...
> yes... obsolete." Galder
>
>
> What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for
> common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?
>
> I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia
> has been launched.
>
> I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common
> knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google
> very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do something
> similar themself (which would go down badly in the public)
>
> But the war of information is a reality and heating up. We can be very
> glad that so far we have not been a target of all angriness of what is
> to be seen as the "correct" information. But that could change, what if
> a new administration in US want to control what is written in Wikipedia.
> Or China want to set up a parallel in English as the have now in
> Chinese. If these thing happen we 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise

[Strainu]

Pe marți, 26 octombrie 2021, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
galder...@hotmail.com> a scris:
> Anders: we can't add a physics simulator.

We totally can. It takes programming knowledge and a technical
administrator, but it's possible.

Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or
even particularly hard. What's nearly impossible is to scale such
initiatives in a meaningful manner (I.e. over 250+ languages).

Strainu

(https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Physics-Interactives/Newtons-Laws). This
is not "info wars", this is being useful. And we can't do it because...
well, because we are... obsolete.
>
> 
> From: Anders Wennersten 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 6:02 PM
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
Enterprise
>
>
> We have an army of volunteers to guarantee correctness and that issues of
controversies are dealt with in a way that hopefully all parties can accept
>
> we have no cookies or technical things that make us follow up on our
editors, truly believing in the full integrity of our users
>
> our financial and governing set up is fully independent of an third party
>
> Our reading interface works well for our users and on most platforms
(which is made easier with no technical smarties)
>
> Our interface can be made better for editors, but this does not make it
as a phenomenon obsolete
>
> In the info war we are in, it is beer to be on the "boring" side with few
or none smart gadgets then being too smart and open for foul play by
parties that want to undermine our system by clever hackers
>
> Anders
>
> Den 2021-10-26 kl. 17:37, skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga:
>
> Thanks Anders,
> "We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this would
imply that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we still, in 2021,
can't do this things (you can help by expanding this list):
>
> Simultaneous edition
> Auto-save in sandbox
> Publishing from sandbox
> Upload MP4 files
> Render correctly vectorial files
> Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects
> Have a modern look
> Have cross-project templates and modules
> Visual edit from mobile
> Create visually interesting cartography
> Hear the articles
> Export multiple articles as a pdf/doc (whatever)
> ...
> 
>
> Someone will answer to this message talking about the "Wishlist survey"
every year we have. This scarcity generating system also gives funny
outcomes. Let's take the 2019 survey. 10 projects were voted. Only 4 done:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results. Or
the 2017 one:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results.
Some projects where done, some not and there are some that are external
tools that you have to use as a gadget.
>
> Students are relying on YouTube to learn things. We are obsolete. Very
obsolete.
> Galder
>
>
> 
> From: Anders Wennersten 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:23 PM
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
Enterprise
>
> "We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still...
> yes... obsolete." Galder
>
>
> What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for
> common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?
>
> I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia
> has been launched.
>
> I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common
> knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google
> very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do something
> similar themself (which would go down badly in the public)
>
> But the war of information is a reality and heating up. We can be very
> glad that so far we have not been a target of all angriness of what is
> to be seen as the "correct" information. But that could change, what if
> a new administration in US want to control what is written in Wikipedia.
> Or China want to set up a parallel in English as the have now in
> Chinese. If these thing happen we need to have resources to fight off
> these type a of challenges, not only for our own sake but for he people
> in the world who is used to turn to Wikipedia for basic facts.
>
> We are the opposite to obsolete, we are in the front seat and driving
> for correct facts in the emerging information war we now see
>
> Anders
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> Public archives at
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> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> ___
> 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Butch Bustria]

Hi Michal,

We would like to clarify if this communication blast received clearance
through an en banc resolution of your committee or entirely your personal
decision? If the entire affcom was bypassed or did not explicitly authorise
your action, your position will also be at risk.

Thanks.

Kind regards,

Butch

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 9:13 PM Subhashish  wrote:

> I echo SJ's words. This is ad hominem, especially against someone who has
> been a part of the Wikimedia community much before being a part of WMF,
> continues to remain a part of her home community in volunteer capacity, and
> has expanded her volunteerism to contribute to global roles. That, IMO, is
> a full-time contribution to the Wikimedia movement in both personal and
> professional capacity. It's shameful that the title of this email includes
> Manavpreet's name and goes into with character assassination. Won't it be
> better to frame, if you doubt the process, the process as faulty and cite
> reasons rather than attacking an individual Wikimedian? It would be useful
> to fix a faulty process rather than attacking an individual based on
> circumstances which might dissuade them? Not to mention, this movement is
> already struggling with low participation of women, LGBTQ+ individuals,
> people with disabilities and indigenous members/groups. Such a behaviour
> would only help grow that gap further.
>
> Subhashish
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 7:16 PM Samuel Klein  wrote:
>
>> Michal,
>>
>> Don't be absurd.
>> *Do not use this list for personal attacks*.
>>
>> You seem to be forum-shopping an ethical disagreement
>> 
>>  with
>> others at WMSVK, and now extending that to attacking anyone who has
>> interacted with you about it.
>>
>> Manavpreet is a saint and an excellent communicator, who we are fortunate
>> to have in our movement. She no doubt responded to your concerns with
>> kindness -- unlike those who steered clear. For you to attack *her*
>> character as a result is ridiculous. When you come to your senses you owe
>> her an apology.
>>
>> We must all take care of ourselves in mentally trying times.
>> Find ways to cope that do not involve lashing out.
>>
>> SJ
>>
>> (PS - Since this subject line is itself unkind targeting -- if anyone
>> wants to comment further on-list, please use the previous thread, 
>> "*Investigation
>> of possible AffCom*...")
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/3T5TDNYRXQLOKYZ766XJLWTLCKBWF3DP/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/AHQF7CX7LCDURPPYBOYZFNKSD7Y2UVB3/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org



-- 
Sincerely,

Roman Bustria Jr.


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[Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise

[Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga]

Anders: we can't add a physics simulator. 
(https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Physics-Interactives/Newtons-Laws). This is 
not "info wars", this is being useful. And we can't do it because... well, 
because we are... obsolete.


From: Anders Wennersten 
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 6:02 PM
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise


We have an army of volunteers to guarantee correctness and that issues of 
controversies are dealt with in a way that hopefully all parties can accept


we have no cookies or technical things that make us follow up on our editors, 
truly believing in the full integrity of our users


our financial and governing set up is fully independent of an third party


Our reading interface works well for our users and on most platforms (which is 
made easier with no technical smarties)


Our interface can be made better for editors, but this does not make it as a 
phenomenon obsolete


In the info war we are in, it is beer to be on the "boring" side with few or 
none smart gadgets then being too smart and open for foul play by parties that 
want to undermine our system by clever hackers


Anders


Den 2021-10-26 kl. 17:37, skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga:
Thanks Anders,
"We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this would imply 
that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we still, in 2021, can't do 
this things (you can help by expanding this list):

  *   Simultaneous edition
  *   Auto-save in sandbox
  *   Publishing from sandbox
  *   Upload MP4 files
  *   Render correctly vectorial files
  *   Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects
  *   Have a modern look
  *   Have cross-project templates and modules
  *   Visual edit from mobile
  *   Create visually interesting cartography
  *   Hear the articles
  *   Export multiple articles as a pdf/doc (whatever)
  *   ...
  *   

Someone will answer to this message talking about the "Wishlist survey" every 
year we have. This scarcity generating system also gives funny outcomes. Let's 
take the 2019 survey. 10 projects were voted. Only 4 done: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results. Or the 
2017 one: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results. Some 
projects where done, some not and there are some that are external tools that 
you have to use as a gadget.

Students are relying on YouTube to learn things. We are obsolete. Very obsolete.

Galder



From: Anders Wennersten 

Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:23 PM
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 

Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise

"We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still...
yes... obsolete." Galder


What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for
common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?

I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia
has been launched.

I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common
knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google
very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do something
similar themself (which would go down badly in the public)

But the war of information is a reality and heating up. We can be very
glad that so far we have not been a target of all angriness of what is
to be seen as the "correct" information. But that could change, what if
a new administration in US want to control what is written in Wikipedia.
Or China want to set up a parallel in English as the have now in
Chinese. If these thing happen we need to have resources to fight off
these type a of challenges, not only for our own sake but for he people
in the world who is used to turn to Wikipedia for basic facts.

We are the opposite to obsolete, we are in the front seat and driving
for correct facts in the emerging information war we now see

Anders
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise

[Francesc Fort]

I find interesting what Anders and Galder said. I believe that Galder's
complaint (which I agree with) is not incompatible with Anders observation.

We can be both obsolete (technology) but yet relevant to society.

F.

Missatge de Liam Wyatt  del dia dt., 26 d’oct. 2021 a
les 17:44:

> Yes the website , and press release
> ,
> were "launched" yesterday.
> Yes, notification was given on this mailing list
> 
>  two
> weeks ago, as well as several others - including wikitech-l, affiliates-l.
> That message included various new pieces of documentation (including Board
> statement relating to revenue principles, methods of free-access to the
> service for community, forthcoming public 'office hours' meetings).
> Moreover, it also included notification of this impending launch.
>
> - Liam
>
> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 17:35, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>
>> The Wikimedia Enterprise site surely is up:
>> https://enterprise.wikimedia.com/pricing/
>>
>> Did I miss an announcement here on this mailing list?
>>
>> At least there was a WMF blog post:
>> https://wikimediafoundation.org/news/2021/10/25/wikimedia-foundation-launches-wikimedia-enterprise-the-new-opt-in-product-for-companies-and-organizations-to-easily-reuse-content-from-wikipedia-and-wikimedia-projects/
>>
>> Anders: The best thing that could happen to Wikipedia would be to have a
>> competitor. Think about it for a moment, for God's sake.
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 3:55 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
>> galder...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear wikimedians,
>>> Some years ago, I visited Uzbekistan. I was shocked and amused to find
>>> that the largest paper note was 2.000 soʻm at that time, with a plan to
>>> start with the 5.000 paper note soon. The most used one still was the 1.000
>>> soʻm note, that was about 35 US cents in the bank and about 20 US cents in
>>> the street markets. So, the first time we changed two 100 USD$ paper notes
>>> into soʻm we got around 800 paper notes in bunches of 100. It was quite
>>> interesting to note that people in the street went with black plastic bags
>>> full of money in order to buy at the market or get a taxi ride. Some days
>>> later, I talked to a local taxi driver and he told me that when he bought
>>> his car, he needed a small truck to carry all the paper notes to the car
>>> selling store. Of course, I took that as a joke. Then another man said that
>>> many houses have a room only for storing money, so you can buy a larger
>>> house in the future. I don't know if this was a practical joke, but that's
>>> how it was.
>>>
>>> Yesterday we launched Wikimedia Enterprise. This e-mail is not to show
>>> my disagreement with the idea itself, but with the outcome. It seems that
>>> the purpose of Wikimedia Entrerprise is to have a large money revenue
>>> offering volunteer's time and content to the rich who are willing to pay
>>> for a better API. Believe it or not, I like to tax the rich.
>>>
>>> We have millions of dollars in our money room, and, if everything goes
>>> as planned with Wikimedia Enterprise, we will soon need to buy a new house
>>> to have a larger room to store all those cheques, notes and assets. The
>>> room will soon look huge and plenty of money. Still, there's no plan to
>>> paint the house, arrange the sofa, solve the water leakage we have in the
>>> toilet, mow the lawn or buy a new set of pans so we can cook healthy food
>>> there. Soon, the cow will start aging and won't have more milk to sell. But
>>> yes, the money room will be huge. We will have more and more and more
>>> millions, but we will still... yes... obsolete.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Galder
>>> ___
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> Public archives at
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/HZALAV3GIRPIHJIHRD4JGMGEKBBF6VGQ/
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>> ___
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>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/SJMKECHDDPHRH7AD3Z5W7ADADJYV3Y65/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> ___

[Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise

[Anders Wennersten]

We have an army of volunteers to guarantee correctness and that issues 
of controversies are dealt with in a way that hopefully all parties can 
accept



we have no cookies or technical things that make us follow up on our 
editors, truly believing in the full integrity of our users



our financial and governing set up is fully independent of an third party


Our reading interface works well for our users and on most platforms 
(which is made easier with no technical smarties)



Our interface can be made better for editors, but this does not make it 
as a phenomenon obsolete



In the info war we are in, it is beer to be on the "boring" side with 
few or none smart gadgets then being too smart and open for foul play by 
parties that want to undermine our system by clever hackers



Anders


Den 2021-10-26 kl. 17:37, skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga:

Thanks Anders,
"We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this 
would imply that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we 
still, in 2021, can't do this things (you can help by expanding this 
list):


  * Simultaneous edition
  * Auto-save in sandbox
  * Publishing from sandbox
  * Upload MP4 files
  * Render correctly vectorial files
  * Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects
  * Have a modern look
  * Have cross-project templates and modules
  * Visual edit from mobile
  * Create visually interesting cartography
  * Hear the articles
  * Export multiple articles as a pdf/doc (whatever)
  * ...
  * 

Someone will answer to this message talking about the "Wishlist 
survey" every year we have. This scarcity generating system also gives 
funny outcomes. Let's take the 2019 survey. 10 projects were voted. 
Only 4 done: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results 
. 
Or the 2017 one: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results 
. 
Some projects where done, some not and there are some that are 
external tools that you have to use as a gadget.


Students are relying on YouTube to learn things. We are obsolete. Very 
obsolete.


Galder



*From:* Anders Wennersten 
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:23 PM
*To:* wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
*Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia 
Enterprise

"We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still...
yes... obsolete." Galder


What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for
common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?

I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia
has been launched.

I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common
knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google
very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do something
similar themself (which would go down badly in the public)

But the war of information is a reality and heating up. We can be very
glad that so far we have not been a target of all angriness of what is
to be seen as the "correct" information. But that could change, what if
a new administration in US want to control what is written in Wikipedia.
Or China want to set up a parallel in English as the have now in
Chinese. If these thing happen we need to have resources to fight off
these type a of challenges, not only for our own sake but for he people
in the world who is used to turn to Wikipedia for basic facts.

We are the opposite to obsolete, we are in the front seat and driving
for correct facts in the emerging information war we now see

Anders
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise

[Liam Wyatt]

Yes the website , and press release
,
were "launched" yesterday.
Yes, notification was given on this mailing list

two
weeks ago, as well as several others - including wikitech-l, affiliates-l.
That message included various new pieces of documentation (including Board
statement relating to revenue principles, methods of free-access to the
service for community, forthcoming public 'office hours' meetings).
Moreover, it also included notification of this impending launch.

- Liam

On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 17:35, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> The Wikimedia Enterprise site surely is up:
> https://enterprise.wikimedia.com/pricing/
>
> Did I miss an announcement here on this mailing list?
>
> At least there was a WMF blog post:
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/news/2021/10/25/wikimedia-foundation-launches-wikimedia-enterprise-the-new-opt-in-product-for-companies-and-organizations-to-easily-reuse-content-from-wikipedia-and-wikimedia-projects/
>
> Anders: The best thing that could happen to Wikipedia would be to have a
> competitor. Think about it for a moment, for God's sake.
>
> Andreas
>
> On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 3:55 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
> galder...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear wikimedians,
>> Some years ago, I visited Uzbekistan. I was shocked and amused to find
>> that the largest paper note was 2.000 soʻm at that time, with a plan to
>> start with the 5.000 paper note soon. The most used one still was the 1.000
>> soʻm note, that was about 35 US cents in the bank and about 20 US cents in
>> the street markets. So, the first time we changed two 100 USD$ paper notes
>> into soʻm we got around 800 paper notes in bunches of 100. It was quite
>> interesting to note that people in the street went with black plastic bags
>> full of money in order to buy at the market or get a taxi ride. Some days
>> later, I talked to a local taxi driver and he told me that when he bought
>> his car, he needed a small truck to carry all the paper notes to the car
>> selling store. Of course, I took that as a joke. Then another man said that
>> many houses have a room only for storing money, so you can buy a larger
>> house in the future. I don't know if this was a practical joke, but that's
>> how it was.
>>
>> Yesterday we launched Wikimedia Enterprise. This e-mail is not to show my
>> disagreement with the idea itself, but with the outcome. It seems that the
>> purpose of Wikimedia Entrerprise is to have a large money revenue offering
>> volunteer's time and content to the rich who are willing to pay for a
>> better API. Believe it or not, I like to tax the rich.
>>
>> We have millions of dollars in our money room, and, if everything goes as
>> planned with Wikimedia Enterprise, we will soon need to buy a new house to
>> have a larger room to store all those cheques, notes and assets. The room
>> will soon look huge and plenty of money. Still, there's no plan to paint
>> the house, arrange the sofa, solve the water leakage we have in the toilet,
>> mow the lawn or buy a new set of pans so we can cook healthy food there.
>> Soon, the cow will start aging and won't have more milk to sell. But yes,
>> the money room will be huge. We will have more and more and more millions,
>> but we will still... yes... obsolete.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Galder
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/HZALAV3GIRPIHJIHRD4JGMGEKBBF6VGQ/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> ___
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> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise

[Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga]

Thanks Anders,
"We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this would imply 
that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we still, in 2021, can't do 
this things (you can help by expanding this list):

  *   Simultaneous edition
  *   Auto-save in sandbox
  *   Publishing from sandbox
  *   Upload MP4 files
  *   Render correctly vectorial files
  *   Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects
  *   Have a modern look
  *   Have cross-project templates and modules
  *   Visual edit from mobile
  *   Create visually interesting cartography
  *   Hear the articles
  *   Export multiple articles as a pdf/doc (whatever)
  *   ...
  *   

Someone will answer to this message talking about the "Wishlist survey" every 
year we have. This scarcity generating system also gives funny outcomes. Let's 
take the 2019 survey. 10 projects were voted. Only 4 done: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results. Or the 
2017 one: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results. Some 
projects where done, some not and there are some that are external tools that 
you have to use as a gadget.

Students are relying on YouTube to learn things. We are obsolete. Very obsolete.

Galder



From: Anders Wennersten 
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:23 PM
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise

"We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still...
yes... obsolete." Galder


What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for
common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?

I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia
has been launched.

I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common
knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google
very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do something
similar themself (which would go down badly in the public)

But the war of information is a reality and heating up. We can be very
glad that so far we have not been a target of all angriness of what is
to be seen as the "correct" information. But that could change, what if
a new administration in US want to control what is written in Wikipedia.
Or China want to set up a parallel in English as the have now in
Chinese. If these thing happen we need to have resources to fight off
these type a of challenges, not only for our own sake but for he people
in the world who is used to turn to Wikipedia for basic facts.

We are the opposite to obsolete, we are in the front seat and driving
for correct facts in the emerging information war we now see

Anders
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise

[Anders Wennersten]

"We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still... 
yes... obsolete." Galder



What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for 
common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?


I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia 
has been launched.


I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common 
knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google 
very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do something 
similar themself (which would go down badly in the public)


But the war of information is a reality and heating up. We can be very 
glad that so far we have not been a target of all angriness of what is 
to be seen as the "correct" information. But that could change, what if 
a new administration in US want to control what is written in Wikipedia. 
Or China want to set up a parallel in English as the have now in 
Chinese. If these thing happen we need to have resources to fight off 
these type a of challenges, not only for our own sake but for he people 
in the world who is used to turn to Wikipedia for basic facts.


We are the opposite to obsolete, we are in the front seat and driving 
for correct facts in the emerging information war we now see


Anders
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[Wikimedia-l] An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise

[Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga]

Dear wikimedians,
Some years ago, I visited Uzbekistan. I was shocked and amused to find that the 
largest paper note was 2.000 soʻm at that time, with a plan to start with the 
5.000 paper note soon. The most used one still was the 1.000 soʻm note, that 
was about 35 US cents in the bank and about 20 US cents in the street markets. 
So, the first time we changed two 100 USD$ paper notes into soʻm we got around 
800 paper notes in bunches of 100. It was quite interesting to note that people 
in the street went with black plastic bags full of money in order to buy at the 
market or get a taxi ride. Some days later, I talked to a local taxi driver and 
he told me that when he bought his car, he needed a small truck to carry all 
the paper notes to the car selling store. Of course, I took that as a joke. 
Then another man said that many houses have a room only for storing money, so 
you can buy a larger house in the future. I don't know if this was a practical 
joke, but that's how it was.

Yesterday we launched Wikimedia Enterprise. This e-mail is not to show my 
disagreement with the idea itself, but with the outcome. It seems that the 
purpose of Wikimedia Entrerprise is to have a large money revenue offering 
volunteer's time and content to the rich who are willing to pay for a better 
API. Believe it or not, I like to tax the rich.

We have millions of dollars in our money room, and, if everything goes as 
planned with Wikimedia Enterprise, we will soon need to buy a new house to have 
a larger room to store all those cheques, notes and assets. The room will soon 
look huge and plenty of money. Still, there's no plan to paint the house, 
arrange the sofa, solve the water leakage we have in the toilet, mow the lawn 
or buy a new set of pans so we can cook healthy food there. Soon, the cow will 
start aging and won't have more milk to sell. But yes, the money room will be 
huge. We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still... yes... 
obsolete.

Sincerely,

Galder
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Subhashish]

I echo SJ's words. This is ad hominem, especially against someone who has
been a part of the Wikimedia community much before being a part of WMF,
continues to remain a part of her home community in volunteer capacity, and
has expanded her volunteerism to contribute to global roles. That, IMO, is
a full-time contribution to the Wikimedia movement in both personal and
professional capacity. It's shameful that the title of this email includes
Manavpreet's name and goes into with character assassination. Won't it be
better to frame, if you doubt the process, the process as faulty and cite
reasons rather than attacking an individual Wikimedian? It would be useful
to fix a faulty process rather than attacking an individual based on
circumstances which might dissuade them? Not to mention, this movement is
already struggling with low participation of women, LGBTQ+ individuals,
people with disabilities and indigenous members/groups. Such a behaviour
would only help grow that gap further.

Subhashish


On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 7:16 PM Samuel Klein  wrote:

> Michal,
>
> Don't be absurd.
> *Do not use this list for personal attacks*.
>
> You seem to be forum-shopping an ethical disagreement
> 
>  with
> others at WMSVK, and now extending that to attacking anyone who has
> interacted with you about it.
>
> Manavpreet is a saint and an excellent communicator, who we are fortunate
> to have in our movement. She no doubt responded to your concerns with
> kindness -- unlike those who steered clear. For you to attack *her*
> character as a result is ridiculous. When you come to your senses you owe
> her an apology.
>
> We must all take care of ourselves in mentally trying times.
> Find ways to cope that do not involve lashing out.
>
> SJ
>
> (PS - Since this subject line is itself unkind targeting -- if anyone
> wants to comment further on-list, please use the previous thread, 
> "*Investigation
> of possible AffCom*...")
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Investigation of possible AffCom's violations - your input welcomed!

[Tomasz Ganicz]

Actually, IMHO no matter if elected or appointed - all committees
established directly by WMF BoT resolutions are obviously part of the WMF
structure.

Cheers,




wt., 26 paź 2021 o 13:20 Paulo Santos Perneta 
napisał(a):

> (Clarification: They are chosen by AffCom from a pool of self nominated
> candidates usually from the communities that make the Wikimedia Movement -
> but community involvement stops there, AFAIK)
>
> P.
>
> Paulo Santos Perneta  escreveu no dia terça,
> 26/10/2021 à(s) 12:16:
>
>> That (AffCom history) I don't know, apart that once they were known as
>> ChapCom. At least since 2017 (and probably well before?) AffCom members are
>> chosen by AffCom itself, and the only entity they answer to is the WMF BoT.
>>
>> Best,
>> Paulo
>>
>>
>> Gnangarra  escreveu no dia terça, 26/10/2021 à(s)
>> 12:01:
>>
>>> During my time on Wikimedia Australia Committee/board the Affcom members
>>> were elected by the Affiliates, though like all committees individuals can
>>> be cooped to fill specific needs
>>>
>>> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 18:53, Paulo Santos Perneta <
>>> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 "Affcom cant be violating this as they are a volunteer community
 elected committee." - No, despite the dubious information that AffCom
 keeps about themselves on their meta page, they are not "elected", and they
 do not answer to the community 8Wikimedia Movement), as you seem to
 believe.
 They are nominated (by themselves, none the less), and they work for
 WMF BoT (they are a committee of the BoT), and answer to none other than
 WMF BoT. So yes, I'm pretty sure these principles do fully apply to them.

 Best,
 Paulo

 Gnangarra  escreveu no dia terça, 26/10/2021 à(s)
 00:45:

> Michal
>
> The guiding principles you refer to state "*These are not principles
> intended to cover the entire Wikimedia movement, just the Wikimedia
> Foundation*"
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles.
> Affcom cant be violating this as they are a volunteer community elected
> committee. As a liaison for the WMF to AFFCOM the person you refer to must
> follow the decisions of the committee and is limited to how much they can
> respond.   This is the third forum you have shopped in attacking someone
> who is unable to respond, your complaint is that you dont like a decision
> made by Affcom.
>
> Your action do clearly read as a personal public attack intended to
> negatively affect her reputation, you state that it is by saying " *I
> would much rather to communicate about these affairs privately. 
> **Unfortunately,
> I have recognized her in the MCDC too lately for private communication*"
>  It is never too late for private discussion and in every event it is
> always best to work directly with people to resolve an issue rather than
> post long rambling emails to lists like this and other pub;ic 
> communication
> channels as the person cannot respond in every forum and will never have
> the ability for everyone who has read your rant to get a clear outcome.  
> As
> an employee future employers will also see these threads, again they wont
> find resolutions or any apology.
>
> Act respectfully and take your issues to AFFCOM or to the WMF
> employees line manager privately.
>
> Regards
> Gnangarra
>
> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 02:45, Michal Matúšov <
> kubof.hromos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Risker,
>>
>> first of all I would like to emphasize that I am not sure whether
>> AffCom is violating WMF Guiding principles or not. I have my strong 
>> opinion
>> based on months of interactions, but I consider that investigation is
>> needed to be sure. And in order to receive diverse data for a meaningful
>> investigation I have launched this thread and some data have started to
>> come (thanks Lane!).
>>
>> Now to the point, what are the possible AffCom's violations of WMF
>> Guiding principles? Here are some examples (sorry in advance that they 
>> are
>> going to be bit longer that I would like..):
>>
>> Over the last months I have been in intense communication with AffCom
>> over several things. While I have expected (and accepted) that some
>> communication can be rather slow (because of the structure of AffCom), it
>> showed up that some communication from AffCom is at best very misleading.
>> E.g. AffCom reactively (on my question) informed WUG Esperanto and Free
>> Knowledge (EliSo) that AffCom put on hold EliSo's recognition as a 
>> hematic
>> Organisation. As a reason AffCom mentioned "several issues" and that 
>> AffCom
>> is already dealing about them "with the group". It showed up that nor
>> issues, nor dealing up with the group [EliSo] was true... I have asked
>> 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Investigation of possible AffCom's violations - your input welcomed!

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

(Clarification: They are chosen by AffCom from a pool of self nominated
candidates usually from the communities that make the Wikimedia Movement -
but community involvement stops there, AFAIK)

P.

Paulo Santos Perneta  escreveu no dia terça,
26/10/2021 à(s) 12:16:

> That (AffCom history) I don't know, apart that once they were known as
> ChapCom. At least since 2017 (and probably well before?) AffCom members are
> chosen by AffCom itself, and the only entity they answer to is the WMF BoT.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
>
> Gnangarra  escreveu no dia terça, 26/10/2021 à(s)
> 12:01:
>
>> During my time on Wikimedia Australia Committee/board the Affcom members
>> were elected by the Affiliates, though like all committees individuals can
>> be cooped to fill specific needs
>>
>> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 18:53, Paulo Santos Perneta <
>> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "Affcom cant be violating this as they are a volunteer community
>>> elected committee." - No, despite the dubious information that AffCom
>>> keeps about themselves on their meta page, they are not "elected", and they
>>> do not answer to the community 8Wikimedia Movement), as you seem to
>>> believe.
>>> They are nominated (by themselves, none the less), and they work for WMF
>>> BoT (they are a committee of the BoT), and answer to none other than WMF
>>> BoT. So yes, I'm pretty sure these principles do fully apply to them.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Paulo
>>>
>>> Gnangarra  escreveu no dia terça, 26/10/2021 à(s)
>>> 00:45:
>>>
 Michal

 The guiding principles you refer to state "*These are not principles
 intended to cover the entire Wikimedia movement, just the Wikimedia
 Foundation*"
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles.
 Affcom cant be violating this as they are a volunteer community elected
 committee. As a liaison for the WMF to AFFCOM the person you refer to must
 follow the decisions of the committee and is limited to how much they can
 respond.   This is the third forum you have shopped in attacking someone
 who is unable to respond, your complaint is that you dont like a decision
 made by Affcom.

 Your action do clearly read as a personal public attack intended to
 negatively affect her reputation, you state that it is by saying " *I
 would much rather to communicate about these affairs privately. 
 **Unfortunately,
 I have recognized her in the MCDC too lately for private communication*"
  It is never too late for private discussion and in every event it is
 always best to work directly with people to resolve an issue rather than
 post long rambling emails to lists like this and other pub;ic communication
 channels as the person cannot respond in every forum and will never have
 the ability for everyone who has read your rant to get a clear outcome.  As
 an employee future employers will also see these threads, again they wont
 find resolutions or any apology.

 Act respectfully and take your issues to AFFCOM or to the WMF employees
 line manager privately.

 Regards
 Gnangarra

 On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 02:45, Michal Matúšov 
 wrote:

> Dear Risker,
>
> first of all I would like to emphasize that I am not sure whether
> AffCom is violating WMF Guiding principles or not. I have my strong 
> opinion
> based on months of interactions, but I consider that investigation is
> needed to be sure. And in order to receive diverse data for a meaningful
> investigation I have launched this thread and some data have started to
> come (thanks Lane!).
>
> Now to the point, what are the possible AffCom's violations of WMF
> Guiding principles? Here are some examples (sorry in advance that they are
> going to be bit longer that I would like..):
>
> Over the last months I have been in intense communication with AffCom
> over several things. While I have expected (and accepted) that some
> communication can be rather slow (because of the structure of AffCom), it
> showed up that some communication from AffCom is at best very misleading.
> E.g. AffCom reactively (on my question) informed WUG Esperanto and Free
> Knowledge (EliSo) that AffCom put on hold EliSo's recognition as a hematic
> Organisation. As a reason AffCom mentioned "several issues" and that 
> AffCom
> is already dealing about them "with the group". It showed up that nor
> issues, nor dealing up with the group [EliSo] was true... I have asked
> AffCom several times when it put EliSo's recognition on hold but AffCom
> never clearly answered that. *That is taking 3 months now!* AffCom
> despite my clear question to inform ELiSo about when AffCom put ELiSo's
> recognition on hold never answered this question. That would be rather
> annoying, but the additional fact is that EliSo asked for ThemOrg
> recognition on 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Investigation of possible AffCom's violations - your input welcomed!

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

That (AffCom history) I don't know, apart that once they were known as
ChapCom. At least since 2017 (and probably well before?) AffCom members are
chosen by AffCom itself, and the only entity they answer to is the WMF BoT.

Best,
Paulo


Gnangarra  escreveu no dia terça, 26/10/2021 à(s)
12:01:

> During my time on Wikimedia Australia Committee/board the Affcom members
> were elected by the Affiliates, though like all committees individuals can
> be cooped to fill specific needs
>
> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 18:53, Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Affcom cant be violating this as they are a volunteer community elected
>> committee." - No, despite the dubious information that AffCom keeps
>> about themselves on their meta page, they are not "elected", and they do
>> not answer to the community 8Wikimedia Movement), as you seem to believe.
>> They are nominated (by themselves, none the less), and they work for WMF
>> BoT (they are a committee of the BoT), and answer to none other than WMF
>> BoT. So yes, I'm pretty sure these principles do fully apply to them.
>>
>> Best,
>> Paulo
>>
>> Gnangarra  escreveu no dia terça, 26/10/2021 à(s)
>> 00:45:
>>
>>> Michal
>>>
>>> The guiding principles you refer to state "*These are not principles
>>> intended to cover the entire Wikimedia movement, just the Wikimedia
>>> Foundation*"
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles.
>>> Affcom cant be violating this as they are a volunteer community elected
>>> committee. As a liaison for the WMF to AFFCOM the person you refer to must
>>> follow the decisions of the committee and is limited to how much they can
>>> respond.   This is the third forum you have shopped in attacking someone
>>> who is unable to respond, your complaint is that you dont like a decision
>>> made by Affcom.
>>>
>>> Your action do clearly read as a personal public attack intended to
>>> negatively affect her reputation, you state that it is by saying " *I
>>> would much rather to communicate about these affairs privately. 
>>> **Unfortunately,
>>> I have recognized her in the MCDC too lately for private communication*"
>>>  It is never too late for private discussion and in every event it is
>>> always best to work directly with people to resolve an issue rather than
>>> post long rambling emails to lists like this and other pub;ic communication
>>> channels as the person cannot respond in every forum and will never have
>>> the ability for everyone who has read your rant to get a clear outcome.  As
>>> an employee future employers will also see these threads, again they wont
>>> find resolutions or any apology.
>>>
>>> Act respectfully and take your issues to AFFCOM or to the WMF employees
>>> line manager privately.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Gnangarra
>>>
>>> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 02:45, Michal Matúšov 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Dear Risker,

 first of all I would like to emphasize that I am not sure whether
 AffCom is violating WMF Guiding principles or not. I have my strong opinion
 based on months of interactions, but I consider that investigation is
 needed to be sure. And in order to receive diverse data for a meaningful
 investigation I have launched this thread and some data have started to
 come (thanks Lane!).

 Now to the point, what are the possible AffCom's violations of WMF
 Guiding principles? Here are some examples (sorry in advance that they are
 going to be bit longer that I would like..):

 Over the last months I have been in intense communication with AffCom
 over several things. While I have expected (and accepted) that some
 communication can be rather slow (because of the structure of AffCom), it
 showed up that some communication from AffCom is at best very misleading.
 E.g. AffCom reactively (on my question) informed WUG Esperanto and Free
 Knowledge (EliSo) that AffCom put on hold EliSo's recognition as a hematic
 Organisation. As a reason AffCom mentioned "several issues" and that AffCom
 is already dealing about them "with the group". It showed up that nor
 issues, nor dealing up with the group [EliSo] was true... I have asked
 AffCom several times when it put EliSo's recognition on hold but AffCom
 never clearly answered that. *That is taking 3 months now!* AffCom
 despite my clear question to inform ELiSo about when AffCom put ELiSo's
 recognition on hold never answered this question. That would be rather
 annoying, but the additional fact is that EliSo asked for ThemOrg
 recognition on late november 2020. So according to ThemOrg requirements
 page [1] , the projected time for approval is 4–6 months, meaning that
 ELiSo would be projected to be recognized in late March - May 2021. So
 AffCom reactively (!) informed ELiSo about putting on hold its ThemOrg
 application after 2 months of the longest projected time for approval... 
 *In
 summary*: 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Investigation of possible AffCom's violations - your input welcomed!

[Gnangarra]

During my time on Wikimedia Australia Committee/board the Affcom members
were elected by the Affiliates, though like all committees individuals can
be cooped to fill specific needs

On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 18:53, Paulo Santos Perneta 
wrote:

> "Affcom cant be violating this as they are a volunteer community elected
> committee." - No, despite the dubious information that AffCom keeps about
> themselves on their meta page, they are not "elected", and they do not
> answer to the community 8Wikimedia Movement), as you seem to believe.
> They are nominated (by themselves, none the less), and they work for WMF
> BoT (they are a committee of the BoT), and answer to none other than WMF
> BoT. So yes, I'm pretty sure these principles do fully apply to them.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
> Gnangarra  escreveu no dia terça, 26/10/2021 à(s)
> 00:45:
>
>> Michal
>>
>> The guiding principles you refer to state "*These are not principles
>> intended to cover the entire Wikimedia movement, just the Wikimedia
>> Foundation*"
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles.
>> Affcom cant be violating this as they are a volunteer community elected
>> committee. As a liaison for the WMF to AFFCOM the person you refer to must
>> follow the decisions of the committee and is limited to how much they can
>> respond.   This is the third forum you have shopped in attacking someone
>> who is unable to respond, your complaint is that you dont like a decision
>> made by Affcom.
>>
>> Your action do clearly read as a personal public attack intended to
>> negatively affect her reputation, you state that it is by saying " *I
>> would much rather to communicate about these affairs privately. 
>> **Unfortunately,
>> I have recognized her in the MCDC too lately for private communication*"
>>  It is never too late for private discussion and in every event it is
>> always best to work directly with people to resolve an issue rather than
>> post long rambling emails to lists like this and other pub;ic communication
>> channels as the person cannot respond in every forum and will never have
>> the ability for everyone who has read your rant to get a clear outcome.  As
>> an employee future employers will also see these threads, again they wont
>> find resolutions or any apology.
>>
>> Act respectfully and take your issues to AFFCOM or to the WMF employees
>> line manager privately.
>>
>> Regards
>> Gnangarra
>>
>> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 02:45, Michal Matúšov 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Risker,
>>>
>>> first of all I would like to emphasize that I am not sure whether AffCom
>>> is violating WMF Guiding principles or not. I have my strong opinion based
>>> on months of interactions, but I consider that investigation is needed
>>> to be sure. And in order to receive diverse data for a meaningful
>>> investigation I have launched this thread and some data have started to
>>> come (thanks Lane!).
>>>
>>> Now to the point, what are the possible AffCom's violations of WMF
>>> Guiding principles? Here are some examples (sorry in advance that they are
>>> going to be bit longer that I would like..):
>>>
>>> Over the last months I have been in intense communication with AffCom
>>> over several things. While I have expected (and accepted) that some
>>> communication can be rather slow (because of the structure of AffCom), it
>>> showed up that some communication from AffCom is at best very misleading.
>>> E.g. AffCom reactively (on my question) informed WUG Esperanto and Free
>>> Knowledge (EliSo) that AffCom put on hold EliSo's recognition as a hematic
>>> Organisation. As a reason AffCom mentioned "several issues" and that AffCom
>>> is already dealing about them "with the group". It showed up that nor
>>> issues, nor dealing up with the group [EliSo] was true... I have asked
>>> AffCom several times when it put EliSo's recognition on hold but AffCom
>>> never clearly answered that. *That is taking 3 months now!* AffCom
>>> despite my clear question to inform ELiSo about when AffCom put ELiSo's
>>> recognition on hold never answered this question. That would be rather
>>> annoying, but the additional fact is that EliSo asked for ThemOrg
>>> recognition on late november 2020. So according to ThemOrg requirements
>>> page [1] , the projected time for approval is 4–6 months, meaning that
>>> ELiSo would be projected to be recognized in late March - May 2021. So
>>> AffCom reactively (!) informed ELiSo about putting on hold its ThemOrg
>>> application after 2 months of the longest projected time for approval... *In
>>> summary*: AffCom have communicated false information, non-proactively
>>> and in a secretive manner. In my personal opinion it is in conflict with
>>> the principle of transparency and accountability.
>>>
>>> I am during last 4,5 years involved in helping WUG WMSVK to stop
>>> violating its bylaws and correct its past and current intentional {and
>>> possibly non-intentional) violations of Bylaws, Board agreements and
>>> 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Investigation of possible AffCom's violations - your input welcomed!

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

"Affcom cant be violating this as they are a volunteer community elected
committee." - No, despite the dubious information that AffCom keeps about
themselves on their meta page, they are not "elected", and they do not
answer to the community 8Wikimedia Movement), as you seem to believe.
They are nominated (by themselves, none the less), and they work for WMF
BoT (they are a committee of the BoT), and answer to none other than WMF
BoT. So yes, I'm pretty sure these principles do fully apply to them.

Best,
Paulo

Gnangarra  escreveu no dia terça, 26/10/2021 à(s)
00:45:

> Michal
>
> The guiding principles you refer to state "*These are not principles
> intended to cover the entire Wikimedia movement, just the Wikimedia
> Foundation*"
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles.
> Affcom cant be violating this as they are a volunteer community elected
> committee. As a liaison for the WMF to AFFCOM the person you refer to must
> follow the decisions of the committee and is limited to how much they can
> respond.   This is the third forum you have shopped in attacking someone
> who is unable to respond, your complaint is that you dont like a decision
> made by Affcom.
>
> Your action do clearly read as a personal public attack intended to
> negatively affect her reputation, you state that it is by saying " *I
> would much rather to communicate about these affairs privately. 
> **Unfortunately,
> I have recognized her in the MCDC too lately for private communication*"
>  It is never too late for private discussion and in every event it is
> always best to work directly with people to resolve an issue rather than
> post long rambling emails to lists like this and other pub;ic communication
> channels as the person cannot respond in every forum and will never have
> the ability for everyone who has read your rant to get a clear outcome.  As
> an employee future employers will also see these threads, again they wont
> find resolutions or any apology.
>
> Act respectfully and take your issues to AFFCOM or to the WMF employees
> line manager privately.
>
> Regards
> Gnangarra
>
> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 02:45, Michal Matúšov 
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Risker,
>>
>> first of all I would like to emphasize that I am not sure whether AffCom
>> is violating WMF Guiding principles or not. I have my strong opinion based
>> on months of interactions, but I consider that investigation is needed
>> to be sure. And in order to receive diverse data for a meaningful
>> investigation I have launched this thread and some data have started to
>> come (thanks Lane!).
>>
>> Now to the point, what are the possible AffCom's violations of WMF
>> Guiding principles? Here are some examples (sorry in advance that they are
>> going to be bit longer that I would like..):
>>
>> Over the last months I have been in intense communication with AffCom
>> over several things. While I have expected (and accepted) that some
>> communication can be rather slow (because of the structure of AffCom), it
>> showed up that some communication from AffCom is at best very misleading.
>> E.g. AffCom reactively (on my question) informed WUG Esperanto and Free
>> Knowledge (EliSo) that AffCom put on hold EliSo's recognition as a hematic
>> Organisation. As a reason AffCom mentioned "several issues" and that AffCom
>> is already dealing about them "with the group". It showed up that nor
>> issues, nor dealing up with the group [EliSo] was true... I have asked
>> AffCom several times when it put EliSo's recognition on hold but AffCom
>> never clearly answered that. *That is taking 3 months now!* AffCom
>> despite my clear question to inform ELiSo about when AffCom put ELiSo's
>> recognition on hold never answered this question. That would be rather
>> annoying, but the additional fact is that EliSo asked for ThemOrg
>> recognition on late november 2020. So according to ThemOrg requirements
>> page [1] , the projected time for approval is 4–6 months, meaning that
>> ELiSo would be projected to be recognized in late March - May 2021. So
>> AffCom reactively (!) informed ELiSo about putting on hold its ThemOrg
>> application after 2 months of the longest projected time for approval... *In
>> summary*: AffCom have communicated false information, non-proactively
>> and in a secretive manner. In my personal opinion it is in conflict with
>> the principle of transparency and accountability.
>>
>> I am during last 4,5 years involved in helping WUG WMSVK to stop
>> violating its bylaws and correct its past and current intentional {and
>> possibly non-intentional) violations of Bylaws, Board agreements and
>> possibly national laws. AffCom is formally involved since early 2020 and in
>> December 2021 AffCom took full responsibility for WUG WMSVK. During the
>> time of most engagement, AffCom was (and still is) very secretive and
>> hardly ever and only after several attempts to communication does provide a
>> clear answer of meaningful clarification.