Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
Thank you Bence, for your thoughtful replies to this thread, here and on Meta. Lodewijk writes: I think there are two relevant discussions to be had: First of all, whether there should be an AffCom meeting at all. I've seen excellent work come out of long-form committee meetings. Though these don't have to be entirely in person. The second relevant question is, in my opinion, whether the WMF travel policy is good, proportional etc. Better: should there be a class divide between 'WMF' and 'other' lodging? I think: not. Case in point: we often have a ~8-fold difference in price between the high and low end of 'official' lodging at Wikimania. We could reduce this a lot. Or could provide extra awesome services for those staying in dorms hostels. another criticism is that it should be equalized for all Wikimedia- sponsored trips... last time, I believe it was Sue who mentioned that this would simply result in much less travel and participation. Less travel need not mean less participation. Take the money you were going to spend on jet fuel and hotel salaries, and invest it in videoconf infrastructure (some mix of software, better cameras and mics, and even timeshare access to video meeting rooms in hundreds of cities around the world). The whole movement would benefit from that, not only those with time to fly. Bence writes: a number of committee members have expressed the need to examine whether they could stay in accommodation shared by other attendees I hope some of you do. Then you'll get to hang out with me. :-) Hotels tend to be boring in comparison anyway. But I am sure anything you choose within the WMF guidelines will be approved. SJ ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 12:30 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law_of_triviality I don't really think this is a triviality. Cents and single dollars of chapters are weighted and analyzed, FDC and GACs nitpicks and their goal is to assure that donor moneys is not wasted. We all know that there are issues on that and a lot of chapters had to work hard to be able to draw their budget, and receive their money. 40'000 $ for Wikimania travels are a lot, especially compared to the travel budget of chapters. Period. I would assume that WMF and the Board budgets should be reasonably proportional to chapters ones. Maybe I'm the only one, though. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
On 14 May 2013 08:12, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 12:30 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law_of_triviality I don't really think this is a triviality. I really do think it's an absolutely perfect example of what Parkinson was talking about. - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
I don't think it is trivial either, and having a discussion is fine. However, the bigger discussion is perhaps more relevant - because AffCom is simply following WMF policy here, which is in place for many employees, board members (and others? not sure). So I think there are two relevant discussions to be had: First of all, whether there should be an AffCom meeting at all. Fair question of course. (analogous you could wonder if certain chapters should really send a representative to Wikimania from their budget, whether certain employees really should be there and whether all chapters should be present at the Chapters meeting - all fair discussions to be had in their time, too). The second relevant question is, in my opinion, whether the WMF travel policy is good, proportional etc. This policy has mostly received criticism from two sides - some think it is too elaborate, and WMF should get 'less luxury' (again fair discussion, but we should then focus on the whole question) - another criticism is that it should be equalized for all Wikimedia-sponsored trips, including individual engagement grants, trips to the chapters meeting etc. When this question was brought up last time, I believe it was Sue who mentioned that this would simply result in much less travel and participation. Again, a fair question. Personally, I feel that WMF Committee (and board) members should not be treated to a lower standard than staff members, simply because they are not being paid for their work. But maybe I'm the only one in thát opinion though... Lodewijk 2013/5/14 Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 12:30 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law_of_triviality I don't really think this is a triviality. Cents and single dollars of chapters are weighted and analyzed, FDC and GACs nitpicks and their goal is to assure that donor moneys is not wasted. We all know that there are issues on that and a lot of chapters had to work hard to be able to draw their budget, and receive their money. 40'000 $ for Wikimania travels are a lot, especially compared to the travel budget of chapters. Period. I would assume that WMF and the Board budgets should be reasonably proportional to chapters ones. Maybe I'm the only one, though. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
2013/5/14 Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org I don't think it is trivial either, and having a discussion is fine. However, the bigger discussion is perhaps more relevant - because AffCom is simply following WMF policy here, which is in place for many employees, board members (and others? not sure). So I think there are two relevant discussions to be had: First of all, whether there should be an AffCom meeting at all. Fair question of course. (analogous you could wonder if certain chapters should really send a representative to Wikimania from their budget, whether certain employees really should be there and whether all chapters should be present at the Chapters meeting - all fair discussions to be had in their time, too). The second relevant question is, in my opinion, whether the WMF travel policy is good, proportional etc. This policy has mostly received criticism from two sides - some think it is too elaborate, and WMF should get 'less luxury' (again fair discussion, but we should then focus on the whole question) - another criticism is that it should be equalized for all Wikimedia-sponsored trips, including individual engagement grants, trips to the chapters meeting etc. When this question was brought up last time, I believe it was Sue who mentioned that this would simply result in much less travel and participation. Again, a fair question. Personally, I feel that WMF Committee (and board) members should not be treated to a lower standard than staff members, simply because they are not being paid for their work. But maybe I'm the only one in thát opinion though... Lodewijk ps: I wanted to add to that, but hit 'send' too quickly: I am a member of the Affiliations Committee, and might be considered biased for that reason. 2013/5/14 Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 12:30 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law_of_triviality I don't really think this is a triviality. Cents and single dollars of chapters are weighted and analyzed, FDC and GACs nitpicks and their goal is to assure that donor moneys is not wasted. We all know that there are issues on that and a lot of chapters had to work hard to be able to draw their budget, and receive their money. 40'000 $ for Wikimania travels are a lot, especially compared to the travel budget of chapters. Period. I would assume that WMF and the Board budgets should be reasonably proportional to chapters ones. Maybe I'm the only one, though. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
On 14 May 2013 08:45, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org wrote: 2013/5/14 Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org ... Personally, I feel that WMF Committee (and board) members should not be treated to a lower standard than staff members, simply because they are not being paid for their work. But maybe I'm the only one in thát opinion though... Lodewijk I am pleased to say that from day 1 of Wikimedia UK employing staff, our policy has been that precisely the same expenses policy, travel and hotel standard applies for staff and volunteers. The reason I helped create this policy a couple of years ago, is that anything else would separate the staff from volunteers at events in a visible and unnecessarily community divisive way, and potentially can cause problems with fulfilling our mission for access which must account for undeclared ability needs and diversity requirements. I consider this the *community norm*, rather than WMF's policies. In line with our shared values of openness, our Chief Executive, Trustees and our Operations are required by our finance policy to publish expenses on the public wiki, so I encourage you to email Jon Davies for the current summary should you wish to compare WMUK for the nature of staff expenses for travel and accomodation to other chapters or the WMF. You can find a summary of WMUK's financial policies and plans at https://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Finances Should AffCom or any other group wish to benefit from WMUK policies or procedures, I would be happy to provide some advice as an unpaid volunteer. The UK Chapter has invested a lot in governance improvement. Thanks, Fae -- fae...@gmail.com http://j.mp/faewm Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/mfae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
40k for a single meetup can be justified if the results worth that much money. (I've already argued about this regarding Milan chapters meetup btw). Providing a more than basic travel and accomodation can be a way of appreciation as well for their work, what they do as volunteers, that should be calculated into the costs. Ain't these intrenational events' (not just this meetup's, but all events') success ratio being measured by some way already? The cost/benefit ratio [1] is a pretty basic (and extreme important) thing we like to calculate with here in Hungary about all of our activities. For example the number of articles created divided with the total costs of the article writing contest they've been created within gives a number we can work a lot with to improve cost-effectiveness. Seemingly very few chapters doing anything similar (or not in a visible way) AffCom already measures itself in some ways in their reports, but regarding other meetups, I've barely seen at least a basic followup or aftercare and especially not a detailed overall (measurement) report what is usually /at least in those commercial events I was involved with/ being published after about six month of the last day of the event, and gives a detailed summary of its pros and cons, dos and don'ts, successes and fails, overall impact (upon proactively collected feedbacks), etc. There were plenty of international events already this year (Brussels meeting about EU policies, Milan, London glam, Amsterdam hackathon that are coming in my mind right now from 2013, and this is just the first 4 month (only 1/3rd of the year) and not the full list!) most of them with no or very low visible results yet (ok they need some time to evolve, but regarding events in 2012, I barely read anything to remember nor any followups or summares, reports). Compared to the GLAM camp in the US recently, it seems definitely true. The latter looks like a very good example of a beneficial meetup, having a lot of potential and it seems there is a chance that it will be followed up by WMDC and other participating parties well after the event. Why to have a long term followup? To give a definite answer wheter those potentials actually resulted in anything at all (was there any real benefit) or it was just a very good mooded, fun and positive, but totally fruitless event (wasted money from the movement's POV) I see compared to 2012 costs going up without any visible rise in effectiveness or more worse, a decline in it. This is solely based upon what I can (or can not) read about them on meta and other places, like the comments here. Wikimania 2014 was the first event ever where this thing was taken seriously, but rather on the cost cutting side, than on the effectiveness improving side It would be great to see detailed measurements of these events, like how many new projects or international cooperations (or whatever it aims) were boosted/inspired by the given thematic meetup up until the next similar meetup. If that number is X, while the costs were Y, and X/Y does not look good, than you can start thinking how can you improve X without expanding Y (or even lowering it) to get a much friendly ratio, thus creating an even more fruitful (better quality) event next time. The best would be a detailed breakdown, like main goals, side goals, unexpected or extra things that that meeting had inspired/boosted/hosted/etc. Note, there ain't no such thing as free lunch [2] Cheers, Balázs PS: WMHU has 68k budget for 2013. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit%E2%80%93cost_ratio [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_ain%27t_no_such_thing_as_a_free_lunch 2013/5/14 Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org I don't think it is trivial either, and having a discussion is fine. However, the bigger discussion is perhaps more relevant - because AffCom is simply following WMF policy here, which is in place for many employees, board members (and others? not sure). So I think there are two relevant discussions to be had: First of all, whether there should be an AffCom meeting at all. Fair question of course. (analogous you could wonder if certain chapters should really send a representative to Wikimania from their budget, whether certain employees really should be there and whether all chapters should be present at the Chapters meeting - all fair discussions to be had in their time, too). The second relevant question is, in my opinion, whether the WMF travel policy is good, proportional etc. This policy has mostly received criticism from two sides - some think it is too elaborate, and WMF should get 'less luxury' (again fair discussion, but we should then focus on the whole question) - another criticism is that it should be equalized for all Wikimedia-sponsored trips, including individual engagement grants, trips to the chapters meeting etc. When this question was brought up last time, I believe it was Sue who mentioned that this would simply result in much
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
Bence, I appreciate AffCom work, and everyone of the the committee volunteers that doing a great job. But I really don't like the excuse of sticking to WMF's policy. Without having to start discussing the WMF's policy, I think AffCom should be mature enough to adopt a similar policy behavior as the chapters which they confirms and leading in the start-up steps. Even in DC, Berlin and Milan - the WMF's booked expensive hotel, while the chapters were mature enough to stay in others good hotels with much more fair prices. Again, this is not the time for criticism of the policy and it's not AffCom fault, but you as volunteers, as part of the community, I think should have the maturity to say Thanks for the option, but we prefer for the visibility and the fairness to book less expensive accommodation. BTW. 40,000$ it's about 25 scholarships we can give. Not saying AffCom don't need to attend Wikimania, but having much less fancy budget is always welcome. On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 12:01 AM, Bence Damokos bdamo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Tomasz, On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:14 PM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net wrote: Gregory Varnum wrote: I am not sure what you mean by none of the members being willing to comment. Our chair has responded several times on Meta and many others have responded to Odder via email about this. Let me just straighten this, Greg. Nobody has ever contacted me via e-mail about this except for the insults aimed at me after my first blog post on the matter — and you as an AffCom member should be especially aware of this, as the whole of AffCom was CC'd to every message that I received. I apologise if the tone of some of the e-mails you have received were harmful, and I am sorry for my involvement in that. I think it really came down to the fact that we were quite surprised at the time that as a committee member or adviser you did not feel able to raise the issue or issues that you were perceiving. This lack of trust or ability to communicate openly really saddened me. The hotel is in-line with WMF guidelines and as has been noted, we look to the staff to book those reservations and make appropriate cost-saving decisions. Which is opposite to what the Committee has been doing so far; for instance, during the last Committee meeting, the then-ChapCom members have been using the same accommodation as the rest of the conference participants — and that was a true a cost-saving decision. If I remember correctly, at the time the Committee did not have a budget and a number of details around fiscal responsibility ended up very complicated out of sheer goodwill (with certain chapters paying AffCom members' travel, Wikimedia Germany kindly offering to pay for those who had to stay only an extra night, and the WMF paying from the Board's budget for the rest) and the choice was probably made by me to stay with the chapter delegates as that was the default. In any case, with the dedicated budget we have taken steps to greater clarity and accountability and this involves making sure that the WMF pays for AffCom travel, and that in turn we follow WMF policy on reimbursement and choice of accommodation and in any other way they may prescribe for spending our budget. Technically and individually we could decide on anything that is cheaper than what is allowed by policy (e.g. shared accommodation, or different level of comfort), but those decisions would be made on the grounds of such factors as the accommodation choice of others with whom we would want to meet in off hours (including other AffCom or community members), medical reasons, or strong personal aversion to a particular lodging. I believe that the details of the travel policy of the WMF are up to the WMF to set and I don't think it is a good use of AffCom time to micromanage the WMF's travel budget. If the WMF did decide that from now on it would choose five-star hotels or only hostels with communal showers, would both be unfortunate, but AffCom would then follow that policy. This is regardless of whether personally I believe the WMF is making the best choices when it comes to choosing accommodation, it is simply not our role as AffCom to fix the WMF's travel policy, nor do I see much benefit in setting an example when in reality AffCom only makes up a fraction of WMF travellers (including those going to Wikimania). I am quite confident in the level of financial oversight the board and WMF staff provide in making sure our budget is reasonable in the context of WMF spending. I personally have spent a lot of time making sure our budget was not seen as unreasonable or bloated by the WMF. We have made the decision to spend on an annual meeting, scholarships for affiliates to be (for Wikimania and other events), start up grants, and travel in general to be represented at events and to visit affiliates – I think it would be more
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
Hi, I think the question here should be more general, not for the particular case of AffCom only. We should really give a serious thought on whether such big expenditures are really worth the money or not. And it should encompass all the parties to the movement (volunteers, chapter members, WMF). Here, the choice of hotel really seems expensive. Though I didn't have any prior idea about hotel rent in Hong Kong, I searched on google for some good quality hotels in Tsim Sha Tsui area and found that there are many 4 star hotels (also highly rated) that have room rent within $110 to $150 range. Link: http://www.agoda.com/pages/agoda/default/DestinationSearchResult.aspx?asq=bs17wTmKLORqTfZUfjFABizf6xim3HxBNSprgOQXrVsxfdzWn0%2f0znqfDl5OpHpJEpI6UxJ3hIJhRGCSVK%2f54u4zfq8pkoaMpcy7sIc2UgCZdKAkRVT5G%2fOzan8m99LRyQrMqUm5cC3FKFKM4Rpinbn%2fmElm0M49SNeQL0KmHao%3dtick=635041800643 So, if there is option to save some movement money then why not! Thanks Tonmoy Ali Haidar Khan (tOnmOy) Treasurer Wikimedia Bangladesh ভাবুনতো এমন এক পৃথিবীর কথা, যেখানে প্রতিটি মানুষ সমস্ত জ্ঞান বাধাহীন ভাবে আদান প্রদান করতে পারবে। এটাই আমাদের অঙ্গীকার। On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 7:50 PM, Itzik Edri it...@infra.co.il wrote: Bence, I appreciate AffCom work, and everyone of the the committee volunteers that doing a great job. But I really don't like the excuse of sticking to WMF's policy. Without having to start discussing the WMF's policy, I think AffCom should be mature enough to adopt a similar policy behavior as the chapters which they confirms and leading in the start-up steps. Even in DC, Berlin and Milan - the WMF's booked expensive hotel, while the chapters were mature enough to stay in others good hotels with much more fair prices. Again, this is not the time for criticism of the policy and it's not AffCom fault, but you as volunteers, as part of the community, I think should have the maturity to say Thanks for the option, but we prefer for the visibility and the fairness to book less expensive accommodation. BTW. 40,000$ it's about 25 scholarships we can give. Not saying AffCom don't need to attend Wikimania, but having much less fancy budget is always welcome. On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 12:01 AM, Bence Damokos bdamo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Tomasz, On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:14 PM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net wrote: Gregory Varnum wrote: I am not sure what you mean by none of the members being willing to comment. Our chair has responded several times on Meta and many others have responded to Odder via email about this. Let me just straighten this, Greg. Nobody has ever contacted me via e-mail about this except for the insults aimed at me after my first blog post on the matter — and you as an AffCom member should be especially aware of this, as the whole of AffCom was CC'd to every message that I received. I apologise if the tone of some of the e-mails you have received were harmful, and I am sorry for my involvement in that. I think it really came down to the fact that we were quite surprised at the time that as a committee member or adviser you did not feel able to raise the issue or issues that you were perceiving. This lack of trust or ability to communicate openly really saddened me. The hotel is in-line with WMF guidelines and as has been noted, we look to the staff to book those reservations and make appropriate cost-saving decisions. Which is opposite to what the Committee has been doing so far; for instance, during the last Committee meeting, the then-ChapCom members have been using the same accommodation as the rest of the conference participants — and that was a true a cost-saving decision. If I remember correctly, at the time the Committee did not have a budget and a number of details around fiscal responsibility ended up very complicated out of sheer goodwill (with certain chapters paying AffCom members' travel, Wikimedia Germany kindly offering to pay for those who had to stay only an extra night, and the WMF paying from the Board's budget for the rest) and the choice was probably made by me to stay with the chapter delegates as that was the default. In any case, with the dedicated budget we have taken steps to greater clarity and accountability and this involves making sure that the WMF pays for AffCom travel, and that in turn we follow WMF policy on reimbursement and choice of accommodation and in any other way they may prescribe for spending our budget. Technically and individually we could decide on anything that is cheaper than what is allowed by policy (e.g. shared accommodation, or different level of comfort), but those decisions would be made on the grounds of such factors as the accommodation choice of others with whom we would want to meet in off hours (including other AffCom or community members), medical
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
On 14 May 2013 20:53, Tonmoy Khan tonmoy...@gmail.com wrote: WMF). Here, the choice of hotel really seems expensive. Though I didn't have any prior idea about hotel rent in Hong Kong, I searched on google for some good quality hotels in Tsim Sha Tsui area and found that there are many 4 star hotels (also highly rated) that have room rent within $110 to All movement travellers will be provided with a sleeping bag and a map of bridges to sleep under. Last year's map, we don't want to spend too much. Everyone who has been arguing the fine details of hotel prices in this thread - this is precisely bikeshedding as described by Parkinson. - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
Hi all, Thank you all for your kind suggestions on specific hotels. I would just like to reiterate what might have been lost under the pile of talk page messages, is that 1) technically, the WMF still has to approve the overall budget request that this meeting forms a part of, and while I don't expect that they wouldn't, we have not yet actually started executing any logistical arrangements (these would happen in co-ordination with the WMF and probably the Wikimania organizers for some of the other things we have in mind ) 2) this is a budget based on the hotel the WMF has chosen to our knowledge for its staff, and the $200 is the planning amount they used, and therefore we have used the same for the budget. As far as I am aware, actual costs in the chosen hotel based on a random internet search are lower at this moment (indeed, in the range some people have suggested), but I cannot predict whether the prices would go up if one tries to book many rooms or adds the price of internet and breakfast. These are the details I expect we will be discussing directly with the WMF's travel organizer who will probably end up recommending a specific hotel within the maximum price-range - it might not end up being the same used by WMF staff 3) despite the flexibility provided by the budget, a number of committee members have expressed the need to examine whether they could stay in accommodation shared by other attendees (be those hotels, or hostels). We will continue this discussion with the WMF and the Wikimania organizers, and more importantly, inside the committee to see what is possible and desired (we might end up staying at different places to be able to reach out to the most number of people). Similarly to the hotel budget having a bit of flexibility, we have added a buffer to the flight price estimates to make sure we can stay within budget, the final costs will most probably be well below those budgeted, but the budget is able to absorb unforeseen expenses. (As the budget is approved as part of the WMF annual plan, we do not have or do not feel to have much flexibility in reallocating spending from other lines if the meeting would turn out to be more expensive.) Again, I thank you all heartily for your helpful suggestions. I really appreciate everyone's desire to help and I do hope the WMF travel organizers are reading this thread, as it will ultimately be the task of them and AffCom to find a solution that stays within budget, is compatible with the travel policy and one that committee members are comfortable with to be effective in the meeting. In the long run, if the WMF doesn't amend its travel practices one can always join any of the WMF volunteer or staff communities that result in occasional travel as a perk and more often as a cost of doing their business effectively. Best regards, Bence On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 9:53 PM, Tonmoy Khan tonmoy...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I think the question here should be more general, not for the particular case of AffCom only. We should really give a serious thought on whether such big expenditures are really worth the money or not. And it should encompass all the parties to the movement (volunteers, chapter members, WMF). Here, the choice of hotel really seems expensive. Though I didn't have any prior idea about hotel rent in Hong Kong, I searched on google for some good quality hotels in Tsim Sha Tsui area and found that there are many 4 star hotels (also highly rated) that have room rent within $110 to $150 range. Link: http://www.agoda.com/pages/agoda/default/DestinationSearchResult.aspx?asq=bs17wTmKLORqTfZUfjFABizf6xim3HxBNSprgOQXrVsxfdzWn0%2f0znqfDl5OpHpJEpI6UxJ3hIJhRGCSVK%2f54u4zfq8pkoaMpcy7sIc2UgCZdKAkRVT5G%2fOzan8m99LRyQrMqUm5cC3FKFKM4Rpinbn%2fmElm0M49SNeQL0KmHao%3dtick=635041800643 So, if there is option to save some movement money then why not! Thanks Tonmoy Ali Haidar Khan (tOnmOy) Treasurer Wikimedia Bangladesh ভাবুনতো এমন এক পৃথিবীর কথা, যেখানে প্রতিটি মানুষ সমস্ত জ্ঞান বাধাহীন ভাবে আদান প্রদান করতে পারবে। এটাই আমাদের অঙ্গীকার। On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 7:50 PM, Itzik Edri it...@infra.co.il wrote: Bence, I appreciate AffCom work, and everyone of the the committee volunteers that doing a great job. But I really don't like the excuse of sticking to WMF's policy. Without having to start discussing the WMF's policy, I think AffCom should be mature enough to adopt a similar policy behavior as the chapters which they confirms and leading in the start-up steps. Even in DC, Berlin and Milan - the WMF's booked expensive hotel, while the chapters were mature enough to stay in others good hotels with much more fair prices. Again, this is not the time for criticism of the policy and it's not AffCom fault, but you as volunteers, as part of the community, I think should have the maturity to say Thanks for the option, but we prefer for the visibility and the fairness to book less expensive accommodation.
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
I think the point got lost that this is the budget (i.e. the maximum allotted), not the actual spending plan. It's highly probable that the actual costs will be something other than the maximum allowed amount. Perhaps we should restrain our outrage until then. Meanwhile, let's start another thread to discuss how the WMF splits meetings between mediums. I'm sure they have some sort of philosophy or policy for when IRC meetings, conference calls, video conferencing and face to face meetings are called for respectively. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
On 14 May 2013 21:13, Bence Damokos bdamo...@gmail.com wrote: ... to be effective in the meeting. In the long run, if the WMF doesn't amend its travel practices one can always join any of the WMF volunteer or staff communities that result in occasional travel as a perk and more often as a cost of doing their business effectively. Sorry Bence, travel as a perk? No, for me airport security, cramped on a coach class flight and having to navigate public transport both ways, in order to find my economy hotel has never been a perk, more of a ruddy drawn out stressful punishment. Probably me, I obviously have a jaded old man's perspective compared to most unpaid volunteers in our community. Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
Hi all, It recently came to my attention by way of this blog by Odder (http://twkozlowski.net/how-40k-dollars-turned-to-petty-cash/) that the AffCom approved a $40,000 budget to send 9 of their members to HKG in August (the 10th member lives in HKG). The issue was raised at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Affiliations_Committee#.2440.2C000_Hong_Kong_junket.3F (I see the words transparent being used there a lot). The budget request resolution was then published a http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Resolutions/Budget_request_for_2013_annual_meeting_%E2%80%93_April_2013 - discussion has carried on at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Affiliations_Committee/Resolutions/Budget_request_for_2013_annual_meeting_%E2%80%93_April_2013 What we are seeing is that there is a lot evasive answers, with questions not really being answered. After asking about accommodation, it's been advised that AffCom is basically budgeting approximately US$12,600 towards accommodation (based upon NINE single rooms for 7 nights at a cost of $200 per night). This, I feel, is an outrageous amount of money to be spending. There is no reason that twin rooms can not be used (i.e. 2 per room); or less luxurious accommodation can be booked. I understand that the guys on AffCom might feel like they are being singled out here, but given that they are members of the community, first and foremost, they should be open to such criticism on their spending. It's unfortunate that none of the 9 feel it necessary to comment there, given all the talk of transparency. Perhaps some gentle nudges from others in the community (especially those involved with Chapter wikipolitics) could get this particular committee to understand that although WMF is flush with cash, this is simply not on. I'll leave other issues which have been raised to others. Odder's latest blog at http://twkozlowski.net/saving-by-spending-according-to-affcom/ might be of interest. Cheers, Russavia ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
$200 per person per night for international travel is not outrageous. It's actually quite reasonable, in my opinion, for business travel. I don't think it reasonable to expect people who don't know eachother or even work together to room together for a week in a foreign country. The question you should be asking isn't are the rates of expenses in Hong Kong too high but did the purpose of the travel justify the facially reasonable expenses. ~Nathan ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
Gregory Varnum wrote: I am not sure what you mean by none of the members being willing to comment. Our chair has responded several times on Meta and many others have responded to Odder via email about this. Let me just straighten this, Greg. Nobody has ever contacted me via e-mail about this except for the insults aimed at me after my first blog post on the matter — and you as an AffCom member should be especially aware of this, as the whole of AffCom was CC'd to every message that I received. The hotel is in-line with WMF guidelines and as has been noted, we look to the staff to book those reservations and make appropriate cost-saving decisions. Which is opposite to what the Committee has been doing so far; for instance, during the last Committee meeting, the then-ChapCom members have been using the same accommodation as the rest of the conference participants — and that was a true a cost-saving decision. If we all agree that the WMF is spending too much money on travel (as Bence says, currently around US$1.7 million), then I see no reason why you're going to do the same exact thing instead of allocating the money elsewhere (or just returning it to the WMF). -- Tomasz ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
I'm not sure that the maximum rate is the best comparison to make here. I can understand that for senior representatives of the US government on official business, since prestige seems to be an issue there, but for individuals on charity business? I'm not saying outrageous, but I am saying unreasonable…. Thanks, Mike On 13 May 2013, at 21:22, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: The US federal government maximum rate for lodging Hong Kong is $358 per night.[1] I'm not saying $200 is frugal, it's just not outrageous. [1]:http://aoprals.state.gov/web920/per_diem_action.asp?MenuHide=1PostCode=10261 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
It applies equally well to GS11s traveling on business where prestige is not a factor. Even domestically, I've seen travel costs approximately in line with $200 per night paid by not-for-profits. Can it be cheaper? Sure. Is it cause for outrage and opprobrium in public? I doubt it. I'm more interested in whether it was necessary to travel at all, and in general whether the WMF derives sufficient benefit to justify spending 7 figures on travel every year. On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net wrote: I'm not sure that the maximum rate is the best comparison to make here. I can understand that for senior representatives of the US government on official business, since prestige seems to be an issue there, but for individuals on charity business? I'm not saying outrageous, but I am saying unreasonable…. Thanks, Mike On 13 May 2013, at 21:22, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: The US federal government maximum rate for lodging Hong Kong is $358 per night.[1] I'm not saying $200 is frugal, it's just not outrageous. [1]:http://aoprals.state.gov/web920/per_diem_action.asp?MenuHide=1PostCode=10261 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
In such resolutions, one always budget for the maximum plausible cost and then underspend. It is rather unhelpful to look at the budgeted amount and shout at it as if it's the actual amount spent. PS. Jealous? Run for the forthcoming elections. Winners of those elections also get to travel to Hong Kong for Wikimania 2013, expenses paid for by WMF. I look forward to seeing you in Hong Kong :) On 13 May 2013 20:30, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, It recently came to my attention by way of this blog by Odder (http://twkozlowski.net/how-40k-dollars-turned-to-petty-cash/) that the AffCom approved a $40,000 budget to send 9 of their members to HKG in August (the 10th member lives in HKG). The issue was raised at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Affiliations_Committee#.2440.2C000_Hong_Kong_junket.3F (I see the words transparent being used there a lot). The budget request resolution was then published a http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Resolutions/Budget_request_for_2013_annual_meeting_%E2%80%93_April_2013 - discussion has carried on at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Affiliations_Committee/Resolutions/Budget_request_for_2013_annual_meeting_%E2%80%93_April_2013 What we are seeing is that there is a lot evasive answers, with questions not really being answered. After asking about accommodation, it's been advised that AffCom is basically budgeting approximately US$12,600 towards accommodation (based upon NINE single rooms for 7 nights at a cost of $200 per night). This, I feel, is an outrageous amount of money to be spending. There is no reason that twin rooms can not be used (i.e. 2 per room); or less luxurious accommodation can be booked. I understand that the guys on AffCom might feel like they are being singled out here, but given that they are members of the community, first and foremost, they should be open to such criticism on their spending. It's unfortunate that none of the 9 feel it necessary to comment there, given all the talk of transparency. Perhaps some gentle nudges from others in the community (especially those involved with Chapter wikipolitics) could get this particular committee to understand that although WMF is flush with cash, this is simply not on. I'll leave other issues which have been raised to others. Odder's latest blog at http://twkozlowski.net/saving-by-spending-according-to-affcom/ might be of interest. Cheers, Russavia ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
Hi Tomasz, On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:14 PM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net wrote: Gregory Varnum wrote: I am not sure what you mean by none of the members being willing to comment. Our chair has responded several times on Meta and many others have responded to Odder via email about this. Let me just straighten this, Greg. Nobody has ever contacted me via e-mail about this except for the insults aimed at me after my first blog post on the matter — and you as an AffCom member should be especially aware of this, as the whole of AffCom was CC'd to every message that I received. I apologise if the tone of some of the e-mails you have received were harmful, and I am sorry for my involvement in that. I think it really came down to the fact that we were quite surprised at the time that as a committee member or adviser you did not feel able to raise the issue or issues that you were perceiving. This lack of trust or ability to communicate openly really saddened me. The hotel is in-line with WMF guidelines and as has been noted, we look to the staff to book those reservations and make appropriate cost-saving decisions. Which is opposite to what the Committee has been doing so far; for instance, during the last Committee meeting, the then-ChapCom members have been using the same accommodation as the rest of the conference participants — and that was a true a cost-saving decision. If I remember correctly, at the time the Committee did not have a budget and a number of details around fiscal responsibility ended up very complicated out of sheer goodwill (with certain chapters paying AffCom members' travel, Wikimedia Germany kindly offering to pay for those who had to stay only an extra night, and the WMF paying from the Board's budget for the rest) and the choice was probably made by me to stay with the chapter delegates as that was the default. In any case, with the dedicated budget we have taken steps to greater clarity and accountability and this involves making sure that the WMF pays for AffCom travel, and that in turn we follow WMF policy on reimbursement and choice of accommodation and in any other way they may prescribe for spending our budget. Technically and individually we could decide on anything that is cheaper than what is allowed by policy (e.g. shared accommodation, or different level of comfort), but those decisions would be made on the grounds of such factors as the accommodation choice of others with whom we would want to meet in off hours (including other AffCom or community members), medical reasons, or strong personal aversion to a particular lodging. I believe that the details of the travel policy of the WMF are up to the WMF to set and I don't think it is a good use of AffCom time to micromanage the WMF's travel budget. If the WMF did decide that from now on it would choose five-star hotels or only hostels with communal showers, would both be unfortunate, but AffCom would then follow that policy. This is regardless of whether personally I believe the WMF is making the best choices when it comes to choosing accommodation, it is simply not our role as AffCom to fix the WMF's travel policy, nor do I see much benefit in setting an example when in reality AffCom only makes up a fraction of WMF travellers (including those going to Wikimania). I am quite confident in the level of financial oversight the board and WMF staff provide in making sure our budget is reasonable in the context of WMF spending. I personally have spent a lot of time making sure our budget was not seen as unreasonable or bloated by the WMF. We have made the decision to spend on an annual meeting, scholarships for affiliates to be (for Wikimania and other events), start up grants, and travel in general to be represented at events and to visit affiliates – I think it would be more interesting to have a discussion about these decisions than the choice of hotels or whether we could save a few dollars by walking instead of taking the bus from the airport. Best regards, Bence ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net wrote: ...Paris and London are both more expensive cities that Hong Kong, so I'd expect the daily rate here to be closer to $130/night, and ideally less than that where bookings are made sufficiently in advance. Not to be a nit, but I wanted to point out that this biannual study shows otherwise. On this list of most expensive cities for hotel rooms, Hong Kong is #8, Paris is #9, and London is not in the top 10. http://travel.cnn.com/explorations/escape/costliest-hotels-list-637685 I don't have a viewpoint either way on this issue, but just thought Wikipedians in favor of verification would like to know. -Andrew ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
On 13 May 2013, at 22:03, Andrew Lih andrew@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net wrote: ...Paris and London are both more expensive cities that Hong Kong, so I'd expect the daily rate here to be closer to $130/night, and ideally less than that where bookings are made sufficiently in advance. Not to be a nit, but I wanted to point out that this biannual study shows otherwise. On this list of most expensive cities for hotel rooms, Hong Kong is #8, Paris is #9, and London is not in the top 10. http://travel.cnn.com/explorations/escape/costliest-hotels-list-637685 I don't have a viewpoint either way on this issue, but just thought Wikipedians in favor of verification would like to know. I was basing my comment on the list at: http://www.citymayors.com/economics/expensive_cities2.html (found via google) Is there a Wikipedia article that covers this? I'd trust that rather more than any single study here… Thanks, Mike ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
On 13 May 2013 17:15, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net wrote: On 13 May 2013, at 22:03, Andrew Lih andrew@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net wrote: ...Paris and London are both more expensive cities that Hong Kong, so I'd expect the daily rate here to be closer to $130/night, and ideally less than that where bookings are made sufficiently in advance. Not to be a nit, but I wanted to point out that this biannual study shows otherwise. On this list of most expensive cities for hotel rooms, Hong Kong is #8, Paris is #9, and London is not in the top 10. http://travel.cnn.com/explorations/escape/costliest-hotels-list-637685 I don't have a viewpoint either way on this issue, but just thought Wikipedians in favor of verification would like to know. I was basing my comment on the list at: http://www.citymayors.com/economics/expensive_cities2.html (found via google) Is there a Wikipedia article that covers this? I'd trust that rather more than any single study here… Thanks, Mike I suspect the list you are pulling up ranks the cities in order of living expense, not hotel accommodation. And you meant Wikivoyage, didn't you? Risker ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
Hi Andrew et al On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 5:03 AM, Andrew Lih andrew@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net wrote: ...Paris and London are both more expensive cities that Hong Kong, so I'd expect the daily rate here to be closer to $130/night, and ideally less than that where bookings are made sufficiently in advance. Not to be a nit, but I wanted to point out that this biannual study shows otherwise. On this list of most expensive cities for hotel rooms, Hong Kong is #8, Paris is #9, and London is not in the top 10. http://travel.cnn.com/explorations/escape/costliest-hotels-list-637685 That list is for 5 star hotels; something that I hope that donor money is never put towards covering the cost of; regardlessofwho itis. But what is most interesting is at the bottom of the article you linked to was this: Also on CNN: Frugal nights: Decent, inexpensive hotels in Hong Kong http://travel.cnn.com/hong-kong/sleep/frugal-indulgence-nice-cheap-hotels-hong-kong-497905 The Tsim Sha Tsui area of Hong Kong around the university is packed jam of decent lodgings, that are a far sight cheaper than the $200 per night being budgeted for at the Regent. Russavia ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
To get a better picture, the hotels listed in the google maps linked here ( http://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Accommodation) ranged from 110 dollars to 170 dollars per night and room and If you place 2 people in the same room the price is 55 to 85 dollars per person (that without the discount that the page mention). So ya, 200 dollars is way too much for accommodations. And that is even without mention the fact that the dorms are 27 dollars per night... _ *Béria Lima* *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 13 May 2013 18:30, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Andrew et al On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 5:03 AM, Andrew Lih andrew@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net wrote: ...Paris and London are both more expensive cities that Hong Kong, so I'd expect the daily rate here to be closer to $130/night, and ideally less than that where bookings are made sufficiently in advance. Not to be a nit, but I wanted to point out that this biannual study shows otherwise. On this list of most expensive cities for hotel rooms, Hong Kong is #8, Paris is #9, and London is not in the top 10. http://travel.cnn.com/explorations/escape/costliest-hotels-list-637685 That list is for 5 star hotels; something that I hope that donor money is never put towards covering the cost of; regardlessofwho itis. But what is most interesting is at the bottom of the article you linked to was this: Also on CNN: Frugal nights: Decent, inexpensive hotels in Hong Kong http://travel.cnn.com/hong-kong/sleep/frugal-indulgence-nice-cheap-hotels-hong-kong-497905 The Tsim Sha Tsui area of Hong Kong around the university is packed jam of decent lodgings, that are a far sight cheaper than the $200 per night being budgeted for at the Regent. Russavia ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:30 PM, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.comwrote: That list is for 5 star hotels; something that I hope that donor money is never put towards covering the cost of; regardlessofwho itis. I don't see any indication that list is for 5 star hotels. Also, I'm not sure you'd be happy hearing this, but it's not a new phenomenon -- donor money has been spent on hotel rooms in this price range for many years now. The Tsim Sha Tsui area of Hong Kong around the university is packed jam of decent lodgings, that are a far sight cheaper than the $200 per night being budgeted for at the Regent. Er, unfortunately it's a real mixed bag, because the TST area is well known for its hourly hotels (yes, it's what you think they are) and tenement-style accommodations that are hygienically challenged. I'm not saying good budget lodging cannot be done, but it's certainly not a target rich environment. -Andrew ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law_of_triviality - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
