Re: [Wikimedia-l] Request for comment on global bans policy
On Jul 6, 2012 2:38 AM, "Dan Rosenthal" wrote: > > The way I read it, Steven correct me if I am wrong, he is writing in a > staff role, but not necessarily within his Engineering responsibilities. > > Dan Rosenthal > Dan is correct. Apologies for any confusion. Steven > On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Theo10011 wrote: > > > On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Steven Walling > >wrote: > > > > > P.S. On a personal note, I wanted to say that though I'm writing this > > > with my staff accout during working hours, this is not really a part > > > of my core job description now that I've joined Engineering and > > > Product Development. I've spent my time authoring this policy and > > > proposing it because I think it's really important, not merely because > > > I was assigned to do so. > > > > > > Steven, just a note, I'd be a bit more comfortable if you could clearly > > demarcate whether you are doing this in your staff role or as a > > volunteer. You are debating a few people who are opposing that policy using > > your "Steven Walling (WMF)" staff account. And, not everyone new on Meta > > might be aware of that postscript you just added here. It also doesn't help > > that 4 of the 12 supporters for implementing the policy in its current form > > are WMF staff. > > > > > > Regards > > Theo > > ___ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Request for comment on global bans policy
On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Philippe Beaudette wrote: > > Theo, > > Could you please expand on this a bit? I'm not sure that I understand. Is > it your proposition that WMF staff shouldn't weigh in on this? Or are you > surprised at the number? or what? Hi Philippe No, that is not my proposition. I am not surprised at the numbers either, though everyone on staff is voting in the same way without partaking in the discussion before. This might be incidental or you might agree with the policy, but it currently makes up for a third of the supports. If you were to follow my earlier reasoning, my concern stemmed more from demarcation of roles there, something that I have brought up to you earlier as well. If Dan's understanding is correct, Steven proposed this policy as part of his staff role through his official work account, then he supported from his regular editing account and then you, and some of the WMF staff members are voting in line with the proposed policy from the volunteer account. My point was it was all getting a bit confusing since he mentioned this in his postscript. Regards Theo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Request for comment on global bans policy
On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 2:17 AM, Theo10011 wrote: > It also doesn't help > that 4 of the 12 supporters for implementing the policy in its current form > are WMF staff. > Theo, Could you please expand on this a bit? I'm not sure that I understand. Is it your proposition that WMF staff shouldn't weigh in on this? Or are you surprised at the number? or what? Thanks, pb ___ Philippe Beaudette Director, Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. 415-839-6885, x 6643 phili...@wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Request for comment on global bans policy
The way I read it, Steven correct me if I am wrong, he is writing in a staff role, but not necessarily within his Engineering responsibilities. Dan Rosenthal On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Theo10011 wrote: > On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Steven Walling >wrote: > > > P.S. On a personal note, I wanted to say that though I'm writing this > > with my staff accout during working hours, this is not really a part > > of my core job description now that I've joined Engineering and > > Product Development. I've spent my time authoring this policy and > > proposing it because I think it's really important, not merely because > > I was assigned to do so. > > > Steven, just a note, I'd be a bit more comfortable if you could clearly > demarcate whether you are doing this in your staff role or as a > volunteer. You are debating a few people who are opposing that policy using > your "Steven Walling (WMF)" staff account. And, not everyone new on Meta > might be aware of that postscript you just added here. It also doesn't help > that 4 of the 12 supporters for implementing the policy in its current form > are WMF staff. > > > Regards > Theo > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Request for comment on global bans policy
On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Steven Walling wrote: > P.S. On a personal note, I wanted to say that though I'm writing this > with my staff accout during working hours, this is not really a part > of my core job description now that I've joined Engineering and > Product Development. I've spent my time authoring this policy and > proposing it because I think it's really important, not merely because > I was assigned to do so. Steven, just a note, I'd be a bit more comfortable if you could clearly demarcate whether you are doing this in your staff role or as a volunteer. You are debating a few people who are opposing that policy using your "Steven Walling (WMF)" staff account. And, not everyone new on Meta might be aware of that postscript you just added here. It also doesn't help that 4 of the 12 supporters for implementing the policy in its current form are WMF staff. Regards Theo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Request for comment on global bans policy
On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Steven Walling wrote: > On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Nathan wrote: > > > I thought about that but beyond the language issue, the RfC has also been > > open for awhile and had significant participation. Since the trend is to > > reject the policy as written anyway, that makes it unenforceable until a > > new RfC is held that demonstrates consensus for a revised policy. Makes a > > "no global bans" option somewhat moot, although it would have been > cleaner > > to include it from the beginning. > > > > I'm not sure I'd call it a trend just yet, since only 20 people have > commented and only recently did "No, not yet" pass the Yes option. ;-) > > But enough semantics. Thanks for the suggestions Nathan, I think you're > right. > > Steven > Since I love semantics as much as any Wikimedian, just have to point out that even a 50/50 split is a trend against consensus ;) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Request for comment on global bans policy
On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Nathan wrote: > I thought about that but beyond the language issue, the RfC has also been > open for awhile and had significant participation. Since the trend is to > reject the policy as written anyway, that makes it unenforceable until a > new RfC is held that demonstrates consensus for a revised policy. Makes a > "no global bans" option somewhat moot, although it would have been cleaner > to include it from the beginning. > I'm not sure I'd call it a trend just yet, since only 20 people have commented and only recently did "No, not yet" pass the Yes option. ;-) But enough semantics. Thanks for the suggestions Nathan, I think you're right. Steven ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Request for comment on global bans policy
On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 6:53 PM, Steven Walling wrote: > On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Nathan wrote: > > > > > Right now, the RfC is trending towards dispensing with the current global > > ban policy. A large portion of that sentiment is from people opposed to > > global bans in general. Of course the option "we don't want global bans" > > wasn't included; if it had been, I suspect that's where most of the > support > > would be. > > > > If you think it should be added normally I would say we should just do it, > the only complication in this case being the translated versions would > become outdated. On the other hand, no one that's not fluent in English has > posted yet, so maybe that's not a disaster. In any case, I'm open to > restructuring it. > > Regards, > > Steven > I thought about that but beyond the language issue, the RfC has also been open for awhile and had significant participation. Since the trend is to reject the policy as written anyway, that makes it unenforceable until a new RfC is held that demonstrates consensus for a revised policy. Makes a "no global bans" option somewhat moot, although it would have been cleaner to include it from the beginning. ~Nathan ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Request for comment on global bans policy
On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Nathan wrote: > It's worth noting here that there is something of a disagreement about the > import of the Terms of Use; Steve Walling and Ryan Kaldari have argued that > the ToU require that the Wikimedia community devise a policy permitting and > describing a process for instituting global bans. In fact, the ToU makes > global bans optional; it assumes only the presence of a global ban policy > (which might be "we don't do global bans"). > I think I could do a better job of clarifying that I think it's the right thing to do whatever the ToU say, though I thought that would be obvious. > > Right now, the RfC is trending towards dispensing with the current global > ban policy. A large portion of that sentiment is from people opposed to > global bans in general. Of course the option "we don't want global bans" > wasn't included; if it had been, I suspect that's where most of the support > would be. > If you think it should be added normally I would say we should just do it, the only complication in this case being the translated versions would become outdated. On the other hand, no one that's not fluent in English has posted yet, so maybe that's not a disaster. In any case, I'm open to restructuring it. Regards, Steven ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Request for comment on global bans policy
It's worth noting here that there is something of a disagreement about the import of the Terms of Use; Steve Walling and Ryan Kaldari have argued that the ToU require that the Wikimedia community devise a policy permitting and describing a process for instituting global bans. In fact, the ToU makes global bans optional; it assumes only the presence of a global ban policy (which might be "we don't do global bans"). Right now, the RfC is trending towards dispensing with the current global ban policy. A large portion of that sentiment is from people opposed to global bans in general. Of course the option "we don't want global bans" wasn't included; if it had been, I suspect that's where most of the support would be. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
