[Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
Hi could we discontinue support for internet explorer 6 and 7 because jquery ui 1.11.0 drops support for internet explorer 6 and 7. Windows xp support internet explorer 8. and so I think we can discontinue support for internet exporer 6 and 7. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
Hi, On Sun, 2014-06-29 at 16:56 +0100, Thomas Mulhall wrote: Hi could we discontinue support for internet explorer 6 and 7 because jquery ui 1.11.0 drops support for internet explorer 6 and 7. Could you elaborate how decisions made by Jquery UI developers are relevant for us, and who the we is here? MediaWiki? Windows xp support internet explorer 8. Could you elaborate why you think this is relevant? (My computer might support software that can manage a nuclear power plant, still I might not have that software installed because I don't have a nuclear power plant handy.) In any case, absolute browser numbers for Wikimedia can be found on http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportClients.htm andre -- Andre Klapper | Wikimedia Bugwrangler http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
On 6/29/14, Andre Klapper aklap...@wikimedia.org wrote: Hi, On Sun, 2014-06-29 at 16:56 +0100, Thomas Mulhall wrote: Hi could we discontinue support for internet explorer 6 and 7 because jquery ui 1.11.0 drops support for internet explorer 6 and 7. Could you elaborate how decisions made by Jquery UI developers are relevant for us, and who the we is here? MediaWiki? Windows xp support internet explorer 8. Could you elaborate why you think this is relevant? (My computer might support software that can manage a nuclear power plant, still I might not have that software installed because I don't have a nuclear power plant handy.) In any case, absolute browser numbers for Wikimedia can be found on http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportClients.htm andre -- Andre Klapper | Wikimedia Bugwrangler http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l Wait, we support internet explorer 6? (Currently IE 6 is 1.17% and 7 is 0.9%. On our scale, 1% is actually a very high number of people. However some bots probably use IE6 as a user-agent, so unclear if those numbers are inflated). I would expect basic site functionality to work in IE 6. You should be able to edit a page, you should be able to read your talk page, etc. I wouldn't expect fancy new features to work unless they are critical to site function. Basically I would expect grade B support for IE6 as suggested on this outdated page: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Browser_support#Grade_B --bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
On Jun 29, 2014, at 12:33 PM, Brian Wolff bawo...@gmail.com wrote: Wait, we support internet explorer 6? (Currently IE 6 is 1.17% and 7 is 0.9%. On our scale, 1% is actually a very high number of people. However some bots probably use IE6 as a user-agent, so unclear if those numbers are inflated). There’s no need to guess the actual numbers within useful ranges. What jQuery supports doesn’t seem completely relevant. 1) For those using older browsers, what are their upgrade opportunities and costs? 2) What is the social impact of dropping support? Will it inordinately affect those in identifiable geographic/cultural/economic groups? 3) What is the effort/cost of not dropping support. (Consider that “dropping” also includes the option of reduced functionality/usability.) — Daniel ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
Le 29/06/2014 20:15, Thomas Mulhall a écrit : Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7. At Wikimedia website scale, that 1% is roughly 500 millions HTML pages served over a month! We might start up a campaign to ask people to upgrade their browser or switch to another one. Might even want to conduct a survey to figure out why they are still using outdated browsers. Most probably: old computers or user doesn't know it can upgrade. -- Antoine hashar Musso ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
Do we still have populations of legitimate users who are working with Windows-based operating systems older than XP? I have heard that in the developing world Windows 2000 is still in use, despite its security vulnerabilities. That said, I would not oppose strongly encouraging users to switch to an operating system that gets security patches. Pine On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Thomas Mulhall thomasmulhall...@yahoo.com wrote: Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
OK, next question is what costs would we be saving by dropping compatibility with IE 6 and 7? If the cost of maintaining compatibility is minimal, at least for basic Wikipedia accessibility and editing, then I hope that compatibility continues. Compatibility for advanced features may require more effort than makes sense. On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 12:20 PM, Antoine Musso hashar+...@free.fr wrote: Le 29/06/2014 21:11, Pine W a écrit : Do we still have populations of legitimate users who are working with Windows-based operating systems older than XP? I have heard that in the developing world Windows 2000 is still in use, despite its security vulnerabilities. That said, I would not oppose strongly encouraging users to switch to an operating system that gets security patches. Pine We have a monthly breakdown by OS at: http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm Windows NT 5.0 (2000) is 112M requests or 0.05% of total requests. Windows 98 has 75.5M or 0.03% 100 millions requests is still a huge number :-) One of my Mac is still using Mac OS 10.5 which is quite old. I cant upgrade it to a later version or it will just become too slow. Luckily, there is nothing of important on that laptop, that is merely a spare one I don't mind loosing. -- Antoine hashar Musso ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
On 06/29/2014 03:08 PM, Antoine Musso wrote: Le 29/06/2014 20:15, Thomas Mulhall a écrit : Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7. At Wikimedia website scale, that 1% is roughly 500 millions HTML pages served over a month! A decision to stop using IE 6 workarounds for JavaScript features would probably not affect readers (the vast majority of those using IE 6 and 7) very much. It's not like we're going to blank the screen for old IE users. Matt Flaschen ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
On 06/29/2014 01:33 PM, Brian Wolff wrote: I would expect basic site functionality to work in IE 6. You should be able to edit a page, you should be able to read your talk page, etc. I wouldn't expect fancy new features to work unless they are critical to site function. Agreed, and that can be accomplished simply by not actively breaking low-level functionality. As long as there is a no-JavaScript editing path (which there still is), and we don't carelessly use new CSS features for that path, old browsers (including IE 6) will still work for basic reading and editing (and my understanding is Flow will support no-JS too). Matt Flaschen ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
Could IE6 and IE7 users edit without Javascript, perhaps by using the mobile version of Wikipedia? Having a way for anyone to edit wikitext without requiring Javascript sounds like a good idea anyway. On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Matthew Flaschen mflasc...@wikimedia.org wrote: On 06/29/2014 03:08 PM, Antoine Musso wrote: Le 29/06/2014 20:15, Thomas Mulhall a écrit : Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7. At Wikimedia website scale, that 1% is roughly 500 millions HTML pages served over a month! A decision to stop using IE 6 workarounds for JavaScript features would probably not affect readers (the vast majority of those using IE 6 and 7) very much. It's not like we're going to blank the screen for old IE users. Matt Flaschen ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
Ah, question answered right before my post. OK. On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: Could IE6 and IE7 users edit without Javascript, perhaps by using the mobile version of Wikipedia? Having a way for anyone to edit wikitext without requiring Javascript sounds like a good idea anyway. On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Matthew Flaschen mflasc...@wikimedia.org wrote: On 06/29/2014 03:08 PM, Antoine Musso wrote: Le 29/06/2014 20:15, Thomas Mulhall a écrit : Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7. At Wikimedia website scale, that 1% is roughly 500 millions HTML pages served over a month! A decision to stop using IE 6 workarounds for JavaScript features would probably not affect readers (the vast majority of those using IE 6 and 7) very much. It's not like we're going to blank the screen for old IE users. Matt Flaschen ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
On 06/29/2014 11:56 AM, Thomas Mulhall wrote: Hi could we discontinue support for internet explorer 6 and 7 because jquery ui 1.11.0 drops support for internet explorer 6 and 7. Windows xp support internet explorer 8. and so I think we can discontinue support for internet exporer 6 and 7. IE 6 is end of life on all desktop operating systems (if you're surfing Wikipedia with Windows Server 2003, there are bigger problems). Windows XP is not receiving security updates for any version of IE (or even for the OS itself). That means desktop IE 6 users are receiving *no* security updates, except in the very unlikely (compared to the total number of IE 6 users) scenario that they work for a company paying for a special support contract. That doesn't mean we're going to suddenly show IE 6 readers a white screen of death, or block edits. However, I have already stopped supporting IE 6 for editor enhancements (e.g. GuidedTour, GettingStarted). As for IE7 (which is still receiving security updates on Windows Vista), I propose we continue supporting it for now, but at a lower level. For example, we are adding icons to text buttons right now. The icons don't work in IE 7 (or IE 6, but see above) due to IE 7's old CSS support. However, the text of the button still shows, so I consider it acceptable. The jQuery UI roadmap is decreasingly relevant to us, since we are moving away from jQuery UI (gradually, but there is some progress that may accelerate this). Matt Flaschen ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
Well windows 200 is not supported. And windows xp internet explorer 6 was only made for windows xp. And windows xp user should upgrade to internet explorer 8 because internet explorer 6 has not been updated in a long time and has a lot of security flows whereas internet explorer 7 and 8 have smiler designs but are different. Windows xp users should be encouraged to update to a newer os like windows 7 or higher or update there browser to internet explorer 8. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
On 06/29/2014 05:44 PM, Thomas Mulhall wrote: Well windows 200 is not supported. And windows xp internet explorer 6 was only made for windows xp. And windows xp user should upgrade to internet explorer 8 because internet explorer 6 has not been updated in a long time and has a lot of security flows whereas internet explorer 7 and 8 have smiler designs but are different. Windows xp users should be encouraged to update to a newer os like windows 7 or higher or update there browser to internet explorer 8. Windows XP is end of life. No version of IE (neither IE 6, IE 7, nor IE 8) are receiving security updates on XP. This (and the fact that IE 6 is not supported on any other desktop OS either) is part of why I think we should drop IE 6 entirely for all enhancements over the basic experience. We should not be encouraging people to use any browser on Windows XP, since the OS itself is not getting security updates. Matt Flaschen ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
Ok. We should also ask users of internet explorer 7 to upgrade to internet explorer 8. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
Sounds good. I also would think about having Wikimedia banners at the top of the browser for users of IE6 through IE8 that caution them that they are using a browser and OS with security risks that might, among other things, leave them vulnerable to having their Wikimedia browsing, Wikimedia account security, and email account security be compromised. On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Matthew Flaschen mflasc...@wikimedia.org wrote: On 06/29/2014 05:44 PM, Thomas Mulhall wrote: Well windows 200 is not supported. And windows xp internet explorer 6 was only made for windows xp. And windows xp user should upgrade to internet explorer 8 because internet explorer 6 has not been updated in a long time and has a lot of security flows whereas internet explorer 7 and 8 have smiler designs but are different. Windows xp users should be encouraged to update to a newer os like windows 7 or higher or update there browser to internet explorer 8. Windows XP is end of life. No version of IE (neither IE 6, IE 7, nor IE 8) are receiving security updates on XP. This (and the fact that IE 6 is not supported on any other desktop OS either) is part of why I think we should drop IE 6 entirely for all enhancements over the basic experience. We should not be encouraging people to use any browser on Windows XP, since the OS itself is not getting security updates. Matt Flaschen ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
On 30/06/14 03:33, Brian Wolff wrote: Wait, we support internet explorer 6? (Currently IE 6 is 1.17% and 7 is 0.9%. On our scale, 1% is actually a very high number of people. However some bots probably use IE6 as a user-agent, so unclear if those numbers are inflated). If it were 1% spread thinly throughout the world, among people who probably have access to other browsers and have no real excuse for using IE 6, then I would be in favour of dropping it. The trouble is, IE 6 accounts for about 22% of market share in mainland China: https://www.modern.ie/en-us/ie6countdown#list There is some dispute about this figure, but according to this article from March 2013, it is probably not too far off, if you count installations rather than web traffic: http://globalsem.wordbank.com/global-marketing/ie6-china/ In China, we have enough trouble as it is trying to compete with local websites -- ending support for perhaps the most popular browser in that region could hardly help matters. -- Tim Starling ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
On Jun 29, 2014, at 6:12 PM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote: http://globalsem.wordbank.com/global-marketing/ie6-china/ Reading between the lines: updates are complicated. …[M]any of the Windows operating systems are not direct purchases – these methods do not allow upgrade. i.e. virtually all copies of IE6 are pirated. There are also concerns in China about U.S.-government back doors into later versions of I.E. http://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-china-clash-over-windows-8-and-charges-of-backdoor-spying/ — Daniel ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
I'm happy to see us talking about leaving these old browsers behind, but it seems a few existing policies and situations may have been overlooked in this thread thus far. Hopefully this list of things to consider will be helpful: 1. We are planning on moving away from jQuery UI this year as part of our UI standardization push 2. We have a policy in place that any browser with 0.1% market share or more should be supported for reading and basic contribution 3. We have a policy that reading and basic contribution should be possible without JavaScript 4. Depending on the feature, IE 6 and 7 are already unsupported 5. Not supporting older browsers is not always about work involved, many times it is not possible to bring certain features to a browser because of lack of support or severe bugs - Trevor On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Daniel Norton dan...@danielnorton.com wrote: On Jun 29, 2014, at 6:12 PM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote: http://globalsem.wordbank.com/global-marketing/ie6-china/ Reading between the lines: updates are complicated. …[M]any of the Windows operating systems are not direct purchases – these methods do not allow upgrade. i.e. virtually all copies of IE6 are pirated. There are also concerns in China about U.S.-government back doors into later versions of I.E. http://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-china-clash-over-windows-8-and-charges-of-backdoor-spying/ — Daniel ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support
On Jun 29, 2014, at 6:49 PM, Trevor Parscal tpars...@wikimedia.org wrote: 2. We have a policy in place that any browser with 0.1% market share or more should be supported for reading and basic contribution It seems that wisdom would suggest flexibility on that policy if the 0.1% includes a substantial portion of a notable demographic. e.g. China and IE6. 3. We have a policy that reading and basic contribution should be possible without JavaScript And reading is probably necessary for effective (and efficient) SEO. 5. Not supporting older browsers is not always about work involved, many times it is not possible to bring certain features to a browser because of lack of support or severe bugs I would consider that as cost → ∞ — Daniel ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Bugzilla Weekly Report
MediaWiki Bugzilla Report for June 23, 2014 - June 30, 2014 Status changes this week Reports changed/set to UNCONFIRMED: 3 Reports changed/set to NEW: 19 Reports changed/set to ASSIGNED : 33 Reports changed/set to REOPENED : 11 Reports changed/set to PATCH_TO_RE: 92 Reports changed/set to RESOLVED : 262 Reports changed/set to VERIFIED : 7 Total reports still open : 15025 Total bugs still open : 9087 Total non-lowest prio. bugs still open: 8833 Total enhancements still open : 5938 Reports created this week: 328 Resolutions for the week: Reports marked FIXED : 190 Reports marked DUPLICATE : 31 Reports marked INVALID : 18 Reports marked WORKSFORME: 10 Reports marked WONTFIX : 12 Specific Product/Component Resolutions User Metrics Created reports per component Wikipedia App Android App 17 VisualEditor Editing Tools 16 MediaWiki extensions WikidataRepo 15 MediaWiki extensions Flow 14 MediaWiki extensions Popups10 Created reports per product MediaWiki extensions 117 MediaWiki 53 VisualEditor 46 Wikimedia 38 Wikipedia App 22 Top 5 bug report closers jforrester [AT] wikimedia.org 35 gtisza [AT] wikimedia.org 23 legoktm.wikipedia [AT] gmail.c14 aklapper [AT] wikimedia.org 9 dgarry [AT] wikimedia.org 8 Most urgent open issues Product | Component | BugID | Priority | LastChange | Assignee | Summary -- Analytics | Wikistats | 66079 | Highest | 2014-06-03 | wikibugs-l[AT]lists. | ipv6 addresses are mistaken for regis MediaWiki ext | EducationProg | 66624 | Highest | 2014-06-18 | wikibugs-l[AT]lists. | User's IP is shown as 'IP is a stud MediaWiki ext | OAuth | 57336 | Highest | 2014-06-09 | wikibugs-l[AT]lists. | Make metawiki the central OAuth wiki MediaWiki ext | WikidataClien | 66718 | Highest | 2014-06-17 | wikidata-bugs[AT]lis | Other projects sidebar beta feature MediaWiki ext | WikidataRepo | 64600 | Highest | 2014-06-16 | wikidata-bugs[AT]lis | write script that touches every item MediaWiki ext | WikidataRepo | 64956 | Highest | 2014-06-17 | wikidata-bugs[AT]lis | Install Entity Suggester on the Wikid MediaWiki ext | WikidataRepo | 63224 | Highest | 2014-06-17 | wikidata-bugs[AT]lis | review backend part of entity suggest MediaWiki ext | WikidataRepo | 66437 | Highest | 2014-06-19 | wikidata-bugs[AT]lis | Autocompletion in linked page suggest MediaWiki ext | WikidataRepo | 66719 | Highest | 2014-06-20 | wikidata-bugs[AT]lis | Also return new serialization in dump MediaWiki ext | WikidataRepo | 66838 | Highest | 2014-06-23 | wikidata-bugs[AT]lis | Reimplement autocompletion in propert MediaWiki ext | WikidataRepo | 52385 | Highest | 2014-06-25 | wikidata-bugs[AT]lis | Query by one property and one value ( MediaWiki ext | WikidataRepo | 66791 | Highest | 2014-06-27 | wikidata-bugs[AT]lis | Do not omit empty fields from JSON ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
