Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Thomas Mulhall]

Oh ok but all china needs is basic functions like editing and reading the page. 
and it would speed up the website because it would take less time to load the 
page on newer browsers then older ones. 


On Tuesday, 1 July 2014, 4:01, Daniel Norton  wrote:
  


On Jun 30, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Thomas Mulhall  wrote:
> Hi but the users can I also get google chrome or Firefox or any other 
> browsers.

No, that’s not always true. Many websites in China work only with IE. (Not too 
long ago many government websites required IE6).

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Daniel Norton]

On Jun 30, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Thomas Mulhall  wrote:
> Hi but the users can I also get google chrome or Firefox or any other 
> browsers.

No, that’s not always true. Many websites in China work only with IE. (Not too 
long ago many government websites required IE6).
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Thomas Mulhall]

Hi we just need to keep the codes for internet explorer 6 for reading and 
editing with basic function. And remove internet explorer6 from extensions and 
.js codes. And start notify internet explorer 6 and 7 users to upgrade to 
internet explorer 8 with a link to where they can download it from.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Thomas Mulhall]

Hi we just need to keep the codes for internet explorer 6 for reading and 
editing with basic function. And remove internet explorer6 from extensions and 
.js codes. And start notify internet explorer 6 and 7 users to upgrade to 
internet explorer 8 with a link to where they can download it from.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Thomas Mulhall]

Ok. the message should only show to user if the code detects that they are 
using internet explorer 6 or 7.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Florian Schmidt]

The problem is, that much people don't trust Google or Chrome (I know some 
people I can't into to use not IE), so I think it's better to say, that they 
can use IE 8.

Kind regards
Florian

Freundliche Grüße
Florian

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: wikitech-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikitech-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Thomas Mulhall
Gesendet: Montag, 30. Juni 2014 17:56
An: Wikimedia developers
Betreff: Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

Hi but the users can I also get google chrome or Firefox or any other browsers. 
Because chrome still support windows xp I think and still receives updates and 
it would speed up the site. Because it doesent need to check for ie 6 or 7.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Thomas Mulhall]

Hi but the users can I also get google chrome or Firefox or any other browsers. 
Because chrome still support windows xp I think and still receives updates and 
it would speed up the site. Because it doesent need to check for ie 6 or 7.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Derk-Jan Hartman]

In addition to what Trevor stated, we recently even merged a JS change
that 'took away' a JS enhancement from IE6 users, leaving them just
the plain HTML form function. So I think we are getting closer to a
point where when it comes to JS/CSS we will be removing some existing
JS/CSS functionality, from IE6 as long as there is a proper fallback
and it makes sense for other browsers.

But basic readability will probably be around for quite some time to
come. Even text based browsers still mostly work with MW.

DJ

On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 1:49 AM, Trevor Parscal  wrote:
> I'm happy to see us talking about leaving these old browsers behind, but it
> seems a few existing policies and situations may have been overlooked in
> this thread thus far.
>
> Hopefully this list of things to consider will be helpful:
>
>1. We are planning on moving away from jQuery UI this year as part of
>our UI standardization push
>2. We have a policy in place that any browser with 0.1% market share or
>more should be supported for reading and basic contribution
>3. We have a policy that reading and basic contribution should be
>possible without JavaScript
>4. Depending on the feature, IE 6 and 7 are already unsupported
>5. Not supporting older browsers is not always about work involved, many
>times it is not possible to bring certain features to a browser because of
>lack of support or severe bugs
>
> - Trevor
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Daniel Norton 
> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 29, 2014, at 6:12 PM, Tim Starling  wrote:
>> > 
>>
>> Reading between the lines:
>> updates are complicated.  …[M]any of the Windows operating systems are not
>> direct purchases – these methods do not allow upgrade.
>>
>> i.e. virtually all copies of IE6 are pirated.
>>
>> There are also concerns in China about U.S.-government back doors into
>> later versions of I.E.
>>
>>
>> http://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-china-clash-over-windows-8-and-charges-of-backdoor-spying/
>>
>> —
>> Daniel
>>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Daniel Norton]

On Jun 29, 2014, at 6:49 PM, Trevor Parscal  wrote:
> 2. We have a policy in place that any browser with 0.1% market share or
>   more should be supported for reading and basic contribution

It seems that wisdom would suggest flexibility on that policy if the < 0.1% 
includes a substantial portion of a notable demographic. e.g. China and IE6.

>   3. We have a policy that reading and basic contribution should be
>   possible without JavaScript

And reading is probably necessary for effective (and efficient) SEO.

>   5. Not supporting older browsers is not always about work involved, many
>   times it is not possible to bring certain features to a browser because of
>   lack of support or severe bugs

I would consider that as cost → ∞

—
Daniel

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Trevor Parscal]

I'm happy to see us talking about leaving these old browsers behind, but it
seems a few existing policies and situations may have been overlooked in
this thread thus far.

Hopefully this list of things to consider will be helpful:

   1. We are planning on moving away from jQuery UI this year as part of
   our UI standardization push
   2. We have a policy in place that any browser with 0.1% market share or
   more should be supported for reading and basic contribution
   3. We have a policy that reading and basic contribution should be
   possible without JavaScript
   4. Depending on the feature, IE 6 and 7 are already unsupported
   5. Not supporting older browsers is not always about work involved, many
   times it is not possible to bring certain features to a browser because of
   lack of support or severe bugs

- Trevor



On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Daniel Norton 
wrote:

> On Jun 29, 2014, at 6:12 PM, Tim Starling  wrote:
> > 
>
> Reading between the lines:
> updates are complicated.  …[M]any of the Windows operating systems are not
> direct purchases – these methods do not allow upgrade.
>
> i.e. virtually all copies of IE6 are pirated.
>
> There are also concerns in China about U.S.-government back doors into
> later versions of I.E.
>
>
> http://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-china-clash-over-windows-8-and-charges-of-backdoor-spying/
>
> —
> Daniel
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Daniel Norton]

On Jun 29, 2014, at 6:12 PM, Tim Starling  wrote:
> 

Reading between the lines:
updates are complicated.  …[M]any of the Windows operating systems are not 
direct purchases – these methods do not allow upgrade.

i.e. virtually all copies of IE6 are pirated.

There are also concerns in China about U.S.-government back doors into later 
versions of I.E.

http://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-china-clash-over-windows-8-and-charges-of-backdoor-spying/

—
Daniel

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Tim Starling]

On 30/06/14 03:33, Brian Wolff wrote:
> Wait, we support internet explorer 6? (Currently IE 6 is 1.17% and 7
> is 0.9%. On our scale, 1% is actually a very high number of people.
> However some bots probably use IE6 as a user-agent, so unclear if
> those numbers are inflated).

If it were 1% spread thinly throughout the world, among people who
probably have access to other browsers and have no real excuse for
using IE 6, then I would be in favour of dropping it. The trouble is,
IE 6 accounts for about 22% of market share in mainland China:

https://www.modern.ie/en-us/ie6countdown#list

There is some dispute about this figure, but according to this article
from March 2013, it is probably not too far off, if you count
installations rather than web traffic:



In China, we have enough trouble as it is trying to compete with local
websites -- ending support for perhaps the most popular browser in
that region could hardly help matters.

-- Tim Starling


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Pine W]

Sounds good. I also would think about having Wikimedia banners at the top
of the browser for users of IE6 through IE8 that caution them that they are
using a browser and OS with security risks that might, among other things,
leave them vulnerable to having their Wikimedia browsing, Wikimedia account
security, and email account security be compromised.


On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Matthew Flaschen 
wrote:

> On 06/29/2014 05:44 PM, Thomas Mulhall wrote:
>
>> Well windows 200 is not supported. And windows xp internet explorer 6
>> was only made for windows xp. And windows xp user should upgrade to
>> internet explorer 8 because internet explorer 6 has not been updated
>> in a long time and has a lot of security flows whereas internet
>> explorer 7 and 8 have smiler designs but are different. Windows xp
>> users should be encouraged to update to a newer os like windows 7 or
>> higher or update there browser to internet explorer 8.
>>
>
> Windows XP is end of life.  No version of IE (neither IE 6, IE 7, nor IE
> 8) are receiving security updates on XP.
>
> This (and the fact that IE 6 is not supported on any other desktop OS
> either) is part of why I think we should drop IE 6 entirely for all
> enhancements over the basic experience.
>
> We should not be encouraging people to use any browser on Windows XP,
> since the OS itself is not getting security updates.
>
>
> Matt Flaschen
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Thomas Mulhall]

Ok. We should also ask users of internet explorer 7 to upgrade to internet 
explorer 8.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 06/29/2014 05:44 PM, Thomas Mulhall wrote:

Well windows 200 is not supported. And windows xp internet explorer 6
was only made for windows xp. And windows xp user should upgrade to
internet explorer 8 because internet explorer 6 has not been updated
in a long time and has a lot of security flows whereas internet
explorer 7 and 8 have smiler designs but are different. Windows xp
users should be encouraged to update to a newer os like windows 7 or
higher or update there browser to internet explorer 8.


Windows XP is end of life.  No version of IE (neither IE 6, IE 7, nor IE 
8) are receiving security updates on XP.


This (and the fact that IE 6 is not supported on any other desktop OS 
either) is part of why I think we should drop IE 6 entirely for all 
enhancements over the basic experience.


We should not be encouraging people to use any browser on Windows XP, 
since the OS itself is not getting security updates.


Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Thomas Mulhall]

Well windows 200 is not supported. And windows xp internet explorer 6 was only 
made for windows xp. And windows xp user should upgrade to internet explorer 8 
because internet explorer 6 has not been updated in a long time and has a lot 
of security flows whereas internet explorer 7 and 8 have smiler designs but are 
different. Windows xp users should be encouraged to update to a newer os like 
windows 7 or higher or update there browser to internet explorer 8.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 06/29/2014 11:56 AM, Thomas Mulhall wrote:

Hi could we discontinue support for internet explorer 6 and 7 because
jquery ui 1.11.0 drops support for internet explorer 6 and 7. Windows
xp support internet explorer 8. and so I think we can discontinue
support for internet exporer 6 and 7.


IE 6 is end of life on all desktop operating systems (if you're surfing 
Wikipedia with Windows Server 2003, there are bigger problems).


Windows XP is not receiving security updates for any version of IE (or
even for the OS itself).

That means desktop IE 6 users are receiving *no* security updates, 
except in the very unlikely (compared to the total number of IE 6 users) 
scenario that they work for a company paying for a special support contract.


That doesn't mean we're going to suddenly show IE 6 readers a white 
screen of death, or block edits.


However, I have already stopped supporting IE 6 for editor enhancements 
(e.g. GuidedTour, GettingStarted).


As for IE7 (which is still receiving security updates on Windows Vista), 
I propose we continue supporting it for now, but at a lower level.


For example, we are adding icons to text buttons right now.  The icons 
don't work in IE 7 (or IE 6, but see above) due to IE 7's old CSS support.


However, the text of the button still shows, so I consider it acceptable.

The jQuery UI roadmap is decreasingly relevant to us, since we are 
moving away from jQuery UI (gradually, but there is some progress that 
may accelerate this).


Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Pine W]

Ah, question answered right before my post. OK.


On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Pine W  wrote:

> Could IE6 and IE7 users edit without Javascript, perhaps by using the
> mobile version of Wikipedia? Having a way for anyone to edit wikitext
> without requiring Javascript sounds like a good idea anyway.
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Matthew Flaschen  > wrote:
>
>> On 06/29/2014 03:08 PM, Antoine Musso wrote:
>>
>>> Le 29/06/2014 20:15, Thomas Mulhall a écrit :
>>>
 Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those
 browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser
 windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more
 things then internet explorer 6 and 7.

>>>
>>> At Wikimedia website scale, that 1% is roughly 500 millions HTML pages
>>> served over a month!
>>>
>>
>> A decision to stop using IE 6 workarounds for JavaScript features would
>> probably not affect readers (the vast majority of those using IE 6 and 7)
>> very much.  It's not like we're going to blank the screen for old IE users.
>>
>> Matt Flaschen
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Pine W]

Could IE6 and IE7 users edit without Javascript, perhaps by using the
mobile version of Wikipedia? Having a way for anyone to edit wikitext
without requiring Javascript sounds like a good idea anyway.


On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Matthew Flaschen 
wrote:

> On 06/29/2014 03:08 PM, Antoine Musso wrote:
>
>> Le 29/06/2014 20:15, Thomas Mulhall a écrit :
>>
>>> Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those
>>> browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser
>>> windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more
>>> things then internet explorer 6 and 7.
>>>
>>
>> At Wikimedia website scale, that 1% is roughly 500 millions HTML pages
>> served over a month!
>>
>
> A decision to stop using IE 6 workarounds for JavaScript features would
> probably not affect readers (the vast majority of those using IE 6 and 7)
> very much.  It's not like we're going to blank the screen for old IE users.
>
> Matt Flaschen
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 06/29/2014 01:33 PM, Brian Wolff wrote:

I would expect basic site functionality to work in IE 6. You should be
able to edit a page, you should be able to read your talk page, etc. I
wouldn't expect fancy new features to work unless they are critical to
site function.


Agreed, and that can be accomplished simply by not actively breaking 
low-level functionality.  As long as there is a no-JavaScript editing 
path (which there still is), and we don't carelessly use new CSS 
features for that path, old browsers (including IE 6) will still work 
for basic reading and editing (and my understanding is Flow will support 
no-JS too).


Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 06/29/2014 03:08 PM, Antoine Musso wrote:

Le 29/06/2014 20:15, Thomas Mulhall a écrit :

Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those
browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser
windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more
things then internet explorer 6 and 7.


At Wikimedia website scale, that 1% is roughly 500 millions HTML pages
served over a month!


A decision to stop using IE 6 workarounds for JavaScript features would 
probably not affect readers (the vast majority of those using IE 6 and 
7) very much.  It's not like we're going to blank the screen for old IE 
users.


Matt Flaschen


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Pine W]

OK, next question is what costs would we be saving by dropping
compatibility with IE 6 and 7?

If the cost of maintaining compatibility is minimal, at least for basic
Wikipedia accessibility and editing, then I hope that compatibility
continues. Compatibility for advanced features may require more effort than
makes sense.


On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 12:20 PM, Antoine Musso  wrote:

> Le 29/06/2014 21:11, Pine W a écrit :
> > Do we still have populations of legitimate users who are working with
> > Windows-based operating systems older than XP? I have heard that in the
> > developing world Windows 2000 is still in use, despite its security
> > vulnerabilities. That said, I would not oppose strongly encouraging users
> > to switch to an operating system that gets security patches.
> >
> > Pine
>
> We have a monthly breakdown by OS at:
> http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm
>
> Windows NT 5.0 (2000) is 112M requests or 0.05% of total requests.
> Windows 98 has 75.5M or 0.03%
>
> 100 millions requests is still a huge number :-)
>
> One of my Mac is still using Mac OS 10.5 which is quite old.  I cant
> upgrade it to a later version or it will just become too slow.  Luckily,
> there is nothing of important on that laptop, that is merely a spare one
> I don't mind loosing.
>
> --
> Antoine "hashar" Musso
>
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Antoine Musso]

Le 29/06/2014 21:11, Pine W a écrit :
> Do we still have populations of legitimate users who are working with
> Windows-based operating systems older than XP? I have heard that in the
> developing world Windows 2000 is still in use, despite its security
> vulnerabilities. That said, I would not oppose strongly encouraging users
> to switch to an operating system that gets security patches.
> 
> Pine

We have a monthly breakdown by OS at:
http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm

Windows NT 5.0 (2000) is 112M requests or 0.05% of total requests.
Windows 98 has 75.5M or 0.03%

100 millions requests is still a huge number :-)

One of my Mac is still using Mac OS 10.5 which is quite old.  I cant
upgrade it to a later version or it will just become too slow.  Luckily,
there is nothing of important on that laptop, that is merely a spare one
I don't mind loosing.

-- 
Antoine "hashar" Musso


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Pine W]

Do we still have populations of legitimate users who are working with
Windows-based operating systems older than XP? I have heard that in the
developing world Windows 2000 is still in use, despite its security
vulnerabilities. That said, I would not oppose strongly encouraging users
to switch to an operating system that gets security patches.

Pine


On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Thomas Mulhall  wrote:

> Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so
> I think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can
> still get internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet
> explorer 6 and 7.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Antoine Musso]

Le 29/06/2014 20:15, Thomas Mulhall a écrit :
> Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those
> browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser
> windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more
> things then internet explorer 6 and 7.

At Wikimedia website scale, that 1% is roughly 500 millions HTML pages
served over a month!

We might start up a campaign to ask people to upgrade their browser or
switch to another one.  Might even want to conduct a survey to figure
out why they are still using outdated browsers. Most probably: old
computers or user doesn't know it can upgrade.

-- 
Antoine "hashar" Musso


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Thomas Mulhall]

Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I 
think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get 
internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Daniel Norton]

On Jun 29, 2014, at 12:33 PM, Brian Wolff  wrote:
> Wait, we support internet explorer 6? (Currently IE 6 is 1.17% and 7
> is 0.9%. On our scale, 1% is actually a very high number of people.
> However some bots probably use IE6 as a user-agent, so unclear if
> those numbers are inflated).

There’s no need to guess the actual numbers within useful ranges. What jQuery 
supports doesn’t seem completely relevant.
1) For those using older browsers, what are their upgrade opportunities and 
costs?
2) What is the social impact of dropping support? Will it inordinately affect 
those in identifiable geographic/cultural/economic groups?
3) What is the effort/cost of not dropping support.

(Consider that “dropping” also includes the option of reduced 
functionality/usability.)

—
Daniel
 
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Thomas Mulhall]

Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I 
think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get 
internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Brian Wolff]

On 6/29/14, Andre Klapper  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, 2014-06-29 at 16:56 +0100, Thomas Mulhall wrote:
>> Hi could we discontinue support for internet explorer 6 and 7 because
>> jquery ui 1.11.0 drops support for internet explorer 6 and 7.
>
> Could you elaborate how decisions made by Jquery UI developers are
> relevant for us, and who the "we" is here? MediaWiki?
>
>> Windows xp support internet explorer 8.
>
> Could you elaborate why you think this is relevant?
> (My computer might support software that can manage a nuclear power
> plant, still I might not have that software installed because I don't
> have a nuclear power plant handy.)
>
> In any case, absolute browser numbers for Wikimedia can be found on
> http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportClients.htm
>
> andre
> --
> Andre Klapper | Wikimedia Bugwrangler
> http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/
>
>
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Wait, we support internet explorer 6? (Currently IE 6 is 1.17% and 7
is 0.9%. On our scale, 1% is actually a very high number of people.
However some bots probably use IE6 as a user-agent, so unclear if
those numbers are inflated).

I would expect basic site functionality to work in IE 6. You should be
able to edit a page, you should be able to read your talk page, etc. I
wouldn't expect fancy new features to work unless they are critical to
site function.

Basically I would expect grade "B" support for IE6 as suggested on
this "outdated" page:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Browser_support#Grade_B

--bawolff

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Andre Klapper]

Hi,

On Sun, 2014-06-29 at 16:56 +0100, Thomas Mulhall wrote:
> Hi could we discontinue support for internet explorer 6 and 7 because
> jquery ui 1.11.0 drops support for internet explorer 6 and 7. 

Could you elaborate how decisions made by Jquery UI developers are
relevant for us, and who the "we" is here? MediaWiki?

> Windows xp support internet explorer 8.

Could you elaborate why you think this is relevant?
(My computer might support software that can manage a nuclear power
plant, still I might not have that software installed because I don't
have a nuclear power plant handy.)

In any case, absolute browser numbers for Wikimedia can be found on
http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportClients.htm

andre
-- 
Andre Klapper | Wikimedia Bugwrangler
http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/


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[Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

[Thomas Mulhall]

Hi could we discontinue support for internet explorer 6 and 7 because jquery ui 
1.11.0 drops support for internet explorer 6 and 7. Windows xp support internet 
explorer 8. and so I think we can discontinue support for internet exporer 6 
and 7.
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