Re: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki Developer Summit: The future of Language Converter
Hoi, It has always been very clear that the script conversion for Serbian and Chinese is very important. Every time it has been stressed that it needs to remain available. The fact that technically you have a challenge does not take anything away from it. I am quite confident that the Language Committee is opposed to even the suggestion to do without this. Some provocative questions of my own: * When MediaWiki is not able to provide script conversion, will we not implement the software that prevents this. Thanks, GerardM On 27 January 2015 at 18:55, C. Scott Ananian wrote: > Another late addition to the developer summit: let's talk about language > converter, content translation tools, and other ways to bridge language > differences between projects. > > 2:45pm PST today (Tuesday) in Robertson 3. > > Task: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T87652 > > Here's a list of all the wikis currently using (or considering to use) > Language Converter: > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Writing_systems#LanguageConverter > > Some provocative questions to spur your attendance: > > 1. Should zhwiki split for mainland China and Taiwan? What about Malay? > > 2. Should we be using LanguageConverter on enwiki to handle > British/Australian/Indian/American spelling differences? > > 3. Perhaps Swiss German and "High" German should be different wikis? Or use > LanguageConverter? Or use Content Translation tools? > > 4. How do we best edit content which has slight localized differences? > Templates? Interface strings? Can we scale our tools across this range? > > See you there! > --scott > > > > -- > (http://cscott.net) > ___ > Wikitech-l mailing list > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki Developer Summit: The future of Language Converter
I would love to go to this but the timing is not good. Like James, already committed to another session. There seem to be a lot of language-related issues that are being worked on independently by different groups of people who don’t necessarily communicate. Hard for a newbie like me to wrap my head around it all. What could we do to be a bit more coordinated in our efforts? (Seriously, I’m asking.) Joel Sahleen, Software Engineer Language Engineering Wikimedia Foundation jsahl...@wikimedia.org On Jan 27, 2015, at 11:07 AM, James Forrester wrote: > On 27 January 2015 at 10:49, C. Scott Ananian > wrote: > >> Well, I'll give James the opposite answer then: >> >> Language Variants are not *just* a social and cultural issue, either. >> There are real technical issues to address, having to do with how we manage >> "slightly forked" wikis, how we maintain code which is not used by enwiki, >> and the technical limitations of the three basic approaches which have been >> attempted to date (Content Translation tools, Language Converter, forked >> wikis with manual synchronization). >> >> So, let's talk about the technical issues at the Developer summit. I'll >> show you the code to support LanguageConverter in Parsoid, let's talk about >> what it would take to make this work in Visual Editor and/or for HTML page >> views (targeting mobile performance). >> >> And then we can discuss the highly technical RFC regarding "Glossary" >> support in core mediawiki: >> >> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Scoped_language_converter >> >> I think there is plenty of technical content to discuss. And non-technical >> issues to keep in mind, and should inform the technical discussion. >> > > Absolutely. I didn't say anything about the technical issues, which do > need some serious discussion (though I think that an ad-hoc session might > be too short notice). > > > >> But if you don't think it's worth discussing, then don't come. ;) There >> are three other different talks at the same time... >> > > I think it's totally worth discussing, but indeed, unfortunately I > committed to another session. :-( > > J. > -- > James D. Forrester > Product Manager, Editing > Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. > > jforres...@wikimedia.org | @jdforrester > ___ > Wikitech-l mailing list > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki Developer Summit: The future of Language Converter
On 27 January 2015 at 10:49, C. Scott Ananian wrote: > Well, I'll give James the opposite answer then: > > Language Variants are not *just* a social and cultural issue, either. > There are real technical issues to address, having to do with how we manage > "slightly forked" wikis, how we maintain code which is not used by enwiki, > and the technical limitations of the three basic approaches which have been > attempted to date (Content Translation tools, Language Converter, forked > wikis with manual synchronization). > > So, let's talk about the technical issues at the Developer summit. I'll > show you the code to support LanguageConverter in Parsoid, let's talk about > what it would take to make this work in Visual Editor and/or for HTML page > views (targeting mobile performance). > > And then we can discuss the highly technical RFC regarding "Glossary" > support in core mediawiki: > > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Scoped_language_converter > > I think there is plenty of technical content to discuss. And non-technical > issues to keep in mind, and should inform the technical discussion. > Absolutely. I didn't say anything about the technical issues, which do need some serious discussion (though I think that an ad-hoc session might be too short notice). > But if you don't think it's worth discussing, then don't come. ;) There > are three other different talks at the same time... > I think it's totally worth discussing, but indeed, unfortunately I committed to another session. :-( J. -- James D. Forrester Product Manager, Editing Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. jforres...@wikimedia.org | @jdforrester ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki Developer Summit: The future of Language Converter
Well, I'll give James the opposite answer then: Language Variants are not *just* a social and cultural issue, either. There are real technical issues to address, having to do with how we manage "slightly forked" wikis, how we maintain code which is not used by enwiki, and the technical limitations of the three basic approaches which have been attempted to date (Content Translation tools, Language Converter, forked wikis with manual synchronization). So, let's talk about the technical issues at the Developer summit. I'll show you the code to support LanguageConverter in Parsoid, let's talk about what it would take to make this work in Visual Editor and/or for HTML page views (targeting mobile performance). And then we can discuss the highly technical RFC regarding "Glossary" support in core mediawiki: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Scoped_language_converter I think there is plenty of technical content to discuss. And non-technical issues to keep in mind, and should inform the technical discussion. But if you don't think it's worth discussing, then don't come. ;) There are three other different talks at the same time... --scott ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki Developer Summit: The future of Language Converter
On 27 January 2015 at 10:32, C. Scott Ananian wrote: > Asaf, wctaiwan: I totally understand the social and cultural implications > -- that is indeed one of the key things I wish to discuss during this > session so that people understand that language variants are not *just* a > technical issue. > For precisely this reason, I don't think it would be an appropriate conversation to have at a technical event like MWDS. J. -- James D. Forrester Product Manager, Editing Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. jforres...@wikimedia.org | @jdforrester ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki Developer Summit: The future of Language Converter
Asaf, wctaiwan: I totally understand the social and cultural implications -- that is indeed one of the key things I wish to discuss during this session so that people understand that language variants are not *just* a technical issue. For example, I believe that Urdu and Hindi are also amendable to LanguageConverter, but the political issues in that case make it highly unlikely that the two languages would wish to share a wiki. I think Asaf's question was well-posed: let's see what the technical issues are, so that the community can have an informed discussion. --scott ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki Developer Summit: The future of Language Converter
I think any decision to split wikis should not be made without consensus within the affected communities. From a technical standpoint, it would be much easier to decide in favour of a split, but I'm worried that the social ramifications of such a decision would be overlooked in a discussion among developers. It might be a good idea to present the challenges of continuing to maintain Language Converter to the communities, but if, for example, it turns out that having a single Chinese language is better for our free knowledge goals, then it might still be worth investing the time needed to overcome the technical hurdles. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] MediaWiki Developer Summit: The future of Language Converter
Another late addition to the developer summit: let's talk about language converter, content translation tools, and other ways to bridge language differences between projects. 2:45pm PST today (Tuesday) in Robertson 3. Task: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T87652 Here's a list of all the wikis currently using (or considering to use) Language Converter: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Writing_systems#LanguageConverter Some provocative questions to spur your attendance: 1. Should zhwiki split for mainland China and Taiwan? What about Malay? 2. Should we be using LanguageConverter on enwiki to handle British/Australian/Indian/American spelling differences? 3. Perhaps Swiss German and "High" German should be different wikis? Or use LanguageConverter? Or use Content Translation tools? 4. How do we best edit content which has slight localized differences? Templates? Interface strings? Can we scale our tools across this range? See you there! --scott -- (http://cscott.net) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
