[Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Tisza Gergö]

Hi all,

MediaWiki has a user setting to add a CSS class to article links whose length 
is 
below a certain threshold (preferences/appearance/advanced options/threshold 
for 
stub link formatting). Is it possible to enable this by default on a Wikimedia 
wiki? Some of the advantages:
- a lot of editors seem to use it already to find articles which need some 
care, 
and currently it slows down page loading for them because it breaks caching, so 
they could work quicker.
- like red links, it could bring in new editors by making readers realize that 
some of the linked articles need help.
- it could make readers waste less time because they could realize the article 
is a stub without clicking at it.
On the other hand, I suppose it would raise database load because the length of 
all linked pages would need to be queried at HTML generation. (Or is that query 
already already necessary to see which links are red?)



___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Platonides]

Tisza Gergö wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> MediaWiki has a user setting to add a CSS class to article links whose length 
> is
> below a certain threshold (preferences/appearance/advanced options/threshold 
> for
> stub link formatting). Is it possible to enable this by default on a Wikimedia
> wiki?

No.
Currently it would mean not caching any page view.
The feature would need to be adapted to allow efficient stub linking
(I have some ideas about it, and the new linker makes things easier).

Still, we might not allow stub links for anons in miser mode.

Feel free to open a bug.


___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Nemo]

Platonides writes:
> No.
> Currently it would mean not caching any page view.
> The feature would need to be adapted to allow efficient stub linking
> (I have some ideas about it, and the new linker makes things easier).
> 
> Still, we might not allow stub links for anons in miser mode.
> 
> Feel free to open a bug.

Would it be possible to raise the default threshold for links to a page to be
red? Currently it's 0, if I understand correctly, but we could decide to make it
1024 or whatever for everyone (if some wiki asked it), couldn't we?



___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Tisza Gergö]

Platonides  gmail.com> writes:
> Feel free to open a bug.

Thanks, did so:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=29276



___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Aryeh Gregor]

On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 11:24 AM, Tisza Gergö  wrote:
> - a lot of editors seem to use it already to find articles which need some 
> care,
> and currently it slows down page loading for them because it breaks caching, 
> so
> they could work quicker.

It would be better if we could fix it so it didn't break caching at
all, of course, such as by adding the coloring during a postprocessing
stage, after the parser cache is invoked rather than before.

> On the other hand, I suppose it would raise database load because the length 
> of
> all linked pages would need to be queried at HTML generation. (Or is that 
> query
> already already necessary to see which links are red?)

Yes, we're already querying for redlinks, so there's no additional
cost to query page_len while we're at it.  In fact, we always query
page_len anyway just in case we need it for stubs -- see doQuery() in
includes/cache/LinkBatch.php.

But as Platonides says, the parser cache is currently not used at all
when stub coloring is enabled -- I didn't realize that.  If you think
about it, if we cached pages with stub coloring, we'd have to purge
the cache of all pages linking to them whenever they changed length,
or at least whenever the length change put them above or below some
threshold.

This would be moot if we added the coloring on postprocessing after
retrieval from cache, instead of during parsing.  But that's a fairly
ambitious project, I guess.  Alternatively, we could cache it and just
not care if the coloring is outdated, but users would doubtless
complain too much for that to be worth it.

On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Platonides  wrote:
> No.
> Currently it would mean not caching any page view.
> The feature would need to be adapted to allow efficient stub linking
> (I have some ideas about it, and the new linker makes things easier).

What were you thinking of?

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo)  wrote:
> Would it be possible to raise the default threshold for links to a page to be
> red? Currently it's 0, if I understand correctly, but we could decide to make 
> it
> 1024 or whatever for everyone (if some wiki asked it), couldn't we?

I'm not sure what you're asking.  Currently, links to a page are red
if the page does not exist.  It doesn't have to do with the number of
links to the page.

___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[MZMcBride]

Aryeh Gregor wrote:
> It would be better if we could fix it so it didn't break caching at
> all, of course, such as by adding the coloring during a postprocessing
> stage, after the parser cache is invoked rather than before.

There's a tracking bug about avoiding parser cache fragmentation:
.

> Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
>> Would it be possible to raise the default threshold for links to a page
>> to be red? Currently it's 0, if I understand correctly, but we could decide
>> to make it 1024 or whatever for everyone (if some wiki asked it), couldn't
>> we?
> 
> I'm not sure what you're asking.  Currently, links to a page are red
> if the page does not exist.  It doesn't have to do with the number of
> links to the page.

I think he's talking about changing the default value of
$wgDefaultUserOptions's "stubthreshold" on a per-wiki basis. It's currently
0 everywhere, as far as I know.

MZMcBride



___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Aryeh Gregor]

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 2:25 PM, MZMcBride  wrote:
> I think he's talking about changing the default value of
> $wgDefaultUserOptions's "stubthreshold" on a per-wiki basis. It's currently
> 0 everywhere, as far as I know.

We could do that if we wanted to disable the parser cache for all
logged-in users by default, which we most likely don't.

___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Niklas Laxström]

On 5 June 2011 21:09, Aryeh Gregor  wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 11:24 AM, Tisza Gergö  wrote:
>> - a lot of editors seem to use it already to find articles which need some 
>> care,
>> and currently it slows down page loading for them because it breaks caching, 
>> so
>> they could work quicker.
>
> It would be better if we could fix it so it didn't break caching at
> all, of course, such as by adding the coloring during a postprocessing
> stage, after the parser cache is invoked rather than before.

Why don't we just add the numbers to html and let JavaScript make
sense out of them?
  -Niklas

-- 
Niklas Laxström

___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Aryeh Gregor]

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Niklas Laxström
 wrote:
> Why don't we just add the numbers to html and let JavaScript make
> sense out of them?

We can't put the numbers in any form in the parser cache, because
they'll become outdated as soon as the length of the linked page
changes.  The only way to use the parser cache is to put some marker
in it which is substituted for the appropriate page's length when the
parser cache entry is retrieved and displayed.  Once we're doing that,
we may as well also check the user's pref and add a class depending on
it, so we don't have to do anything in JS.

Even if we solve this for parser cache, of course, it won't work for
Squid cache.  Anons are never going to get nonzero stub thresholds.

___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Platonides]

Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
> Platonides writes:
>> No.
>> Currently it would mean not caching any page view.
>> The feature would need to be adapted to allow efficient stub linking
>> (I have some ideas about it, and the new linker makes things easier).
>>
>> Still, we might not allow stub links for anons in miser mode.
>>
>> Feel free to open a bug.
>
> Would it be possible to raise the default threshold for links to a page to be
> red? Currently it's 0, if I understand correctly, but we could decide to make 
> it
> 1024 or whatever for everyone (if some wiki asked it), couldn't we?

No. Anything other than showing no stubs skips the cache.


___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Platonides]

Aryeh Gregor wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Platonides  wrote:
>> No.
>> Currently it would mean not caching any page view.
>> The feature would need to be adapted to allow efficient stub linking
>> (I have some ideas about it, and the new linker makes things easier).
>
> What were you thinking of?

Depending on page cacheability:

1) If the page is not cached and won't be cached (render of old version, 
page preview...) create the stub links as we do now.

2) If the page can be cached,
Render it ignoring stub threshold if not cached.
else
Fetch html from cache.

If the user has a stub threshold different than 0, SELECT 
page_namespace,page_title FROM pagelinks JOIN page ON ... WHERE 
pl_from=$this->mArticleId AND page_len < $user->getStubThreshold();

For each of those stub pages: $a = Linker::Link() (ignoring stub 
threshold), $b = Linker::Link() (as stub).
Extract the open tag from $a and $b.
str_replace $a with $b in the html.

Bypassing the whole parsing structure in that way is not pretty, but 
it's really efficient.


___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Ashar Voultoiz]

On 06/06/11 00:09, Platonides wrote:

> No. Anything other than showing no stubs skips the cache.

Since it skips cache, can not we disable that stub highlighter once for all?

-- 
Ashar Voultoiz


___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[K. Peachey]

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 8:48 AM, Ashar Voultoiz  wrote:
> On 06/06/11 00:09, Platonides wrote:
> 
>> No. Anything other than showing no stubs skips the cache.
>
> Since it skips cache, can not we disable that stub highlighter once for all?
Logged in users don't get cached versions of the page...

___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Ashar Voultoiz]

On 06/06/11 00:56, K. Peachey wrote:

>> Since it skips cache, can not we disable that stub highlighter once for all?
> Logged in users don't get cached versions of the page...

I am well aware of that.  The root cause being the various options 
available to users, my proposal is merely to get ride of one of the 
options :-)

-- 
Ashar Voultoiz


___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Aryeh Gregor]

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 6:22 PM, Platonides  wrote:
> If the user has a stub threshold different than 0, SELECT
> page_namespace,page_title FROM pagelinks JOIN page ON ... WHERE
> pl_from=$this->mArticleId AND page_len < $user->getStubThreshold();
>
> For each of those stub pages: $a = Linker::Link() (ignoring stub
> threshold), $b = Linker::Link() (as stub).
> Extract the open tag from $a and $b.
> str_replace $a with $b in the html.
>
> Bypassing the whole parsing structure in that way is not pretty, but
> it's really efficient.

Hmm, interesting approach.  Basically a postprocessor like I was
thinking of, except simpler.  I was thinking you'd insert special
markers into the HTML that you'd replace later.  But I can't think of
any ways you'd get mismatches with your method, given that the parser
outputs reasonably simple HTML -- in particular, no comments or

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Roan Kattouw]

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Aryeh Gregor
 wrote:
> Hmm, interesting approach.  Basically a postprocessor like I was
> thinking of, except simpler.  I was thinking you'd insert special
> markers into the HTML that you'd replace later.  But I can't think of
> any ways you'd get mismatches with your method, given that the parser
> outputs reasonably simple HTML -- in particular, no comments or
> 

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Platonides]

Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> On 06/06/11 00:56, K. Peachey wrote:
> 
>>> Since it skips cache, can not we disable that stub highlighter once for all?
>> Logged in users don't get cached versions of the page...
>
> I am well aware of that.  The root cause being the various options
> available to users, my proposal is merely to get ride of one of the
> options :-)

I think you would find opposition from wikipedians when you tried to 
ditch the stub threshold option.




___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Happy-melon]

"Platonides"  wrote in message 
news:isjjo3$dmq$1...@dough.gmane.org...
> Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
>> On 06/06/11 00:56, K. Peachey wrote:
>> 
 Since it skips cache, can not we disable that stub highlighter once for 
 all?
>>> Logged in users don't get cached versions of the page...
>>
>> I am well aware of that.  The root cause being the various options
>> available to users, my proposal is merely to get ride of one of the
>> options :-)
>
> I think you would find opposition from wikipedians when you tried to
> ditch the stub threshold option.

We find opposition from some subset of Wikipedians when we try to do just 
about anything.  The presence of a small group of extremely vocal users 
should certainly be noted, but shouldn't be an automatic blocker, or we'd 
never get anything done.  If we proceeded to remove the feature, they could 
fairly easily add it into Popups or one of the other JS citadels.

--HM

 



___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Leo Koppelkamm]

>
>   If we proceeded to remove the feature, they could
> fairly easily add it into Popups or one of the other JS citadels.


I don't see a way to do it in JS w/o lengthy & expensive API checks..
Leo
___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Showing stub links by default - is it possible in a Wikimedia project?

[Happy-melon]

"Leo Koppelkamm"  wrote in message 
news:banlktinsckfvpnrscska4svdgq9zgvu...@mail.gmail.com...
>>
>>   If we proceeded to remove the feature, they could
>> fairly easily add it into Popups or one of the other JS citadels.
>
>
> I don't see a way to do it in JS w/o lengthy & expensive API checks..
> Leo

So they'll do it with lengthy API checks, just like the rest of the data 
Popups gathers.  We tell them not to worry about performance, remember?  The 
number of people who would use a JS implementation is probably small enough 
for it not to be particularly severe.

--HM 



___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l