Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo

2011-01-02 Thread Jay Ashworth 
- Original Message -
 From: Mathias Schindler mathias.schind...@gmail.com

 On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Jay Ashworth j...@baylink.com wrote:
  Some people -- you can include me in this -- *actively* hate WYSIWYG
  editing,
 
 my comment was in no way about the pros and cons of WYSIWYG editing
 and the decision at Wikimedia to have its own turing complete language
 for content. My comment was about this demonstrator which should have
 a huge selection bias of non-haters :)
 
 I reject the WYSIWYG concept itself much less then I dislike the
 effects it has on humans who start to make things look nice.

Oh: you were suggesting that *his demonstrator* not show the plaintext
edit tabs.

Well, remember that those looking at it to evaluate it will *also* note
that they're missing; this will have an effect on people's perceptions
one way or the other, even though it's not a production implementation.

My apologies for misunderstanding you, and for sounding like Get Offa My
Lawn Guy, something I have to guard against increasingly as I dive into
my forties.  :-)

Cheers,
-- jra

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[Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo

2011-01-01 Thread Magnus Manske 
Happy new year all!

Let me welcome you to this historical year (10 years of Wikipedia!
Wow!) with a working demo of WYSIWTF, a pure JavaScript attempt at
(pseudo-) WYSIWYG wikipedia editing.

For the impatient, add

document.write('script type=text/javascript
src=http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js;\/script');

to your vector.js, force-reload, and try any article, User, or
Wikipedia namespace page. Click the WYSIWTF tab, edit, and save (yes,
it does save. You are responsible for cleaning up if you make a mess
;-)
(I invite you to try my test article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/test )


Now, this is not real WYSIWYG, but rather what I'd call augmented
wikitext. You still edit wikitext, but some elements (headings,
links, images, and yes, template) are HTML-rendered for convenience.
Large templates are collapsed into the template name; double-click it
to show/hide the vast sea of parameters, which you then can edit like
normal wikitext. Likewise, double-click links or images to get
(currently quite limited) properties.

For this to work, wikitext is parsed into augmented wikitext, which
is then edited, and rewritten to normal wikitext upon save. Therefore,
you can still enter wikitext directly, and it will just work (TM),
except it won't show directly in its rendered form in the editor.
Likewise, lots of wikitext markup is currently not parsed into an
augmented form; bold/italics, lists, and tables, among others, are
left untouched. I can do only so much for a demo :-)

The editor component is by far the weakest part of this demo. I looked
at CKedit, but it seemed too much work to adapt it for a demo than to
write my own editor, which I then did. To make my life easier, each
wikitext character (!) is its own span element, which might tax your
browser. Medium-sized articles work fine in Chrome on my MacBook Pro,
but YMMV. You can click into the text to position the cursor, move it
left and right with the cursor keys (not up or down!), type text,
delete or backspace, and use Enter for new line. That's it. No text
selection, not bold/italics buttons, no undo. All of which is entirely
feasible, but too much work for this demo.

Some things can't be done with the demo right now, such as changing a
template name, or resizing an image. Again, no technical reason, just
a man-hour one. You will certainly find many ways to break it, and
instances where it fails (correctly discerning whether and image if
local or from Commons is one).


What I would like is some discussion about
* if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
* if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
throw at the general public
* if anyone is willing to help me with that

As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the
end, it would become official Foundation code, with staff that
supports it. Well, I can dream...

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo

2011-01-01 Thread Jan Paul Posma 

 What I would like is some discussion about
 * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
 perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
 * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
 throw at the general public
 * if anyone is willing to help me with that
 
 As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the
 end, it would become official Foundation code, with staff that
 supports it. Well, I can dream...

You seem to want to do exactly the same thing as I'm doing, but in the browser 
only! Maybe you're interested in looking at http://janpaulposma.nl/sle/wiki, 
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-level_editing, 
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2010-October/050031.html and 
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sentence-level_editing

Anyway, I have also looked at doing parsing in the browser, which is quite 
interesting. WikiBasha also uses JS parsing, so maybe it's a good idea to look 
at that too. Trevor also made a JS parser, but I think it's not in SVN (yet).

Regards,
Jan Paul
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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo

2011-01-01 Thread David Gerard 
On 1 January 2011 12:50, Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote:

 What I would like is some discussion about
 * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
 perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go


The question is: can it be incrementally improved, new tags and ways
to deal with them etc, added as we go? Is it structured to make that a
reasonably straightforward thing to do?


- d.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo

2011-01-01 Thread Jay Ashworth 
- Original Message -
 From: Mathias Schindler mathias.schind...@gmail.com
 To: Wikimedia developers wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Sent: Saturday, January 1, 2011 10:34:00 AM
 Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
 On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Magnus Manske
 magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote:
 
  What I would like is some discussion about
  * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
  perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
  * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
  throw at the general public
  * if anyone is willing to help me with that
 
 I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the
 approach, I recommend one minor change:
 
 * deactivate or hide or shrink the read and edit tab as they are
 now obsolete or make the WYSIWTF tab the default display.

Are like hell.

Some people -- you can include me in this -- *actively* hate WYSIWYG editing,
thank-you-very-much.  Good bet at least 30-50% of Wikipedia's power editors 
are very well versed in MWtext[1], and how to use it to get what they want;
I wouldn't recommend making it hard for those people to keep doing what they've
been doing.

Cheers,
-- jra 

[1] Yes, I've just made that statistic up, but I expect it will track with
other similar statistics.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo

2011-01-01 Thread Fred Bauder 
 - Original Message -
 From: Mathias Schindler mathias.schind...@gmail.com
 To: Wikimedia developers wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Sent: Saturday, January 1, 2011 10:34:00 AM
 Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
 On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Magnus Manske
 magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote:

  What I would like is some discussion about
  * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
  perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
  * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
  throw at the general public
  * if anyone is willing to help me with that

 I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the
 approach, I recommend one minor change:

 * deactivate or hide or shrink the read and edit tab as they are
 now obsolete or make the WYSIWTF tab the default display.

 Are like hell.

 Some people -- you can include me in this -- *actively* hate WYSIWYG
 editing,
 thank-you-very-much.  Good bet at least 30-50% of Wikipedia's power
 editors
 are very well versed in MWtext[1], and how to use it to get what they
 want;
 I wouldn't recommend making it hard for those people to keep doing what
 they've
 been doing.

 Cheers,
 -- jra

 [1] Yes, I've just made that statistic up, but I expect it will track
 with
 other similar statistics.

I'll admit to hating Wikia's new system, but so far this looks interesting.

Even there though you don't have to select it.

Fred Bauder



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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo

2011-01-01 Thread Mathias Schindler 
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Jay Ashworth j...@baylink.com wrote:


 Some people -- you can include me in this -- *actively* hate WYSIWYG editing,

my comment was in no way about the pros and cons of WYSIWYG editing
and the decision at Wikimedia to have its own turing complete language
for content. My comment was about this demonstrator which should have
a huge selection bias of non-haters :)

I reject the WYSIWYG concept itself much less then I dislike the
effects it has on humans who start to make things look nice.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo

2011-01-01 Thread Joe Corneli 
 I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the
 approach, I recommend one minor change:

Retitle it WYSIFTW

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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo

2011-01-01 Thread Joe Corneli 
Unfortunately I would say the thing is broken for me, insofar as
various keys (e.g. j,k,f,g,h,l) result in editor actions instead of
characters being inserted.

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Magnus Manske
magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Happy new year all!

 Let me welcome you to this historical year (10 years of Wikipedia!
 Wow!) with a working demo of WYSIWTF, a pure JavaScript attempt at
 (pseudo-) WYSIWYG wikipedia editing.

 For the impatient, add

 document.write('script type=text/javascript
 src=http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js;\/script');

 to your vector.js, force-reload, and try any article, User, or
 Wikipedia namespace page. Click the WYSIWTF tab, edit, and save (yes,
 it does save. You are responsible for cleaning up if you make a mess
 ;-)
 (I invite you to try my test article at
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/test )


 Now, this is not real WYSIWYG, but rather what I'd call augmented
 wikitext. You still edit wikitext, but some elements (headings,
 links, images, and yes, template) are HTML-rendered for convenience.
 Large templates are collapsed into the template name; double-click it
 to show/hide the vast sea of parameters, which you then can edit like
 normal wikitext. Likewise, double-click links or images to get
 (currently quite limited) properties.

 For this to work, wikitext is parsed into augmented wikitext, which
 is then edited, and rewritten to normal wikitext upon save. Therefore,
 you can still enter wikitext directly, and it will just work (TM),
 except it won't show directly in its rendered form in the editor.
 Likewise, lots of wikitext markup is currently not parsed into an
 augmented form; bold/italics, lists, and tables, among others, are
 left untouched. I can do only so much for a demo :-)

 The editor component is by far the weakest part of this demo. I looked
 at CKedit, but it seemed too much work to adapt it for a demo than to
 write my own editor, which I then did. To make my life easier, each
 wikitext character (!) is its own span element, which might tax your
 browser. Medium-sized articles work fine in Chrome on my MacBook Pro,
 but YMMV. You can click into the text to position the cursor, move it
 left and right with the cursor keys (not up or down!), type text,
 delete or backspace, and use Enter for new line. That's it. No text
 selection, not bold/italics buttons, no undo. All of which is entirely
 feasible, but too much work for this demo.

 Some things can't be done with the demo right now, such as changing a
 template name, or resizing an image. Again, no technical reason, just
 a man-hour one. You will certainly find many ways to break it, and
 instances where it fails (correctly discerning whether and image if
 local or from Commons is one).


 What I would like is some discussion about
 * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
 perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
 * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
 throw at the general public
 * if anyone is willing to help me with that

 As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the
 end, it would become official Foundation code, with staff that
 supports it. Well, I can dream...

 Cheers,
 Magnus

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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo

2011-01-01 Thread David Gerard 
On 1 January 2011 16:53, Joe Corneli holtzerman...@gmail.com wrote:

 I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the
 approach, I recommend one minor change:
 Retitle it WYSIFTW


+1


- d.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo

2011-01-01 Thread Magnus Manske 
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 6:17 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 1 January 2011 16:53, Joe Corneli holtzerman...@gmail.com wrote:

 I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the
 approach, I recommend one minor change:
 Retitle it WYSIFTW


 +1

I hope you're both referring to #1 on http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/FTW ...

(#3 would work as well, for wheel wars ;-)

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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo

2011-01-01 Thread Krinkle 
I'm getting blank pages after adding that (in Safari, Mac).
I tried using importScriptURI'ing it but to no luck. I presume because  
the script internally calls more document.writes.

--
Krinkle


Op 1 jan 2011, om 13:50 heeft Magnus Manske het volgende geschreven:

 For the impatient, add

 document.write('script type=text/javascript
 src=http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js;\/script');

 to your vector.js,


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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo

2011-01-01 Thread Krinkle 
Op 1 jan 2011, om 13:50 heeft Magnus Manske het volgende geschreven:

 For the impatient, add

 document.write('script type=text/javascript
 src=http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js;\/script');

 to your vector.js,

Okay, I've switched to Firefox 4 Beta on Mac and it works there.
One error I got though, when I click the WYSIWTF-tab it got stuck on  
Parsing... modal box.
Console told me images.query [undefined] is not an object.

API call to 
http://www.mediawiki.org/w/api.php?action=querygenerator=imagestitles=Sandboxprop=infoimlimit=500format=json
returned an empty array (the Sandbox page didn't contain any images at  
the time).

Another (that you already mentioned partially) is that when I went  
into WTF-mode the image suddenly changed from MW.org's local image  
to ENWP's local File:Example.jpg.
Although I understand it doens't differentiate between local and  
commons, I think we should keep wiki-independance in mind from the  
start.
ie. using wgVariables instead of 'en'.



Op 1 jan 2011, om 15:40 heeft Jan Paul Posma het volgende geschreven:


 What I would like is some discussion about
 * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
 perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
 * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
 throw at the general public
 * if anyone is willing to help me with that

 As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the
 end, it would become official Foundation code, with staff that
 supports it. Well, I can dream...

 You seem to want to do exactly the same thing as I'm doing, but in  
 the browser only! Maybe you're interested in looking at 
 http://janpaulposma.nl/sle/wiki 
 , http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence- 
 level_editing, 
 http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2010-October/050031.html 
  and http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sentence-level_editing

 Anyway, I have also looked at doing parsing in the browser, which is  
 quite interesting. WikiBasha also uses JS parsing, so maybe it's a  
 good idea to look at that too. Trevor also made a JS parser, but I  
 think it's not in SVN (yet).

 Regards,
 Jan Paul



Right now there are three or four projects in active development  
(including Magnus' WYSIWTF en Sentence-level editing).
How about working together ?

Compare what the current status of the different projects is, what are  
the ultimate goals, which are closest to it ?
Then import from others to it to make one awesome thing.

Personaly I also prefer the non-WYSIWYG editing style. In other words:  
Showing what things are but staying in (in)direct contact
with wikitext.

--
Krinkle






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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo

2011-01-01 Thread Joe Corneli 
On 1/1/11, Magnus Manske
magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote:  Works for
me (Mac, Chrome). Not tested anywhere else. Your
OS/browser?
That was on FF3.6, running under X11 on Mac OS.
Not the most mainstream combo :)

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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo

2011-01-01 Thread Magnus Manske 
2011/1/1 Krinkle krinklem...@gmail.com:
 Op 1 jan 2011, om 13:50 heeft Magnus Manske het volgende geschreven:

 For the impatient, add

 document.write('script type=text/javascript
 src=http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js;\/script');

 to your vector.js,

 Okay, I've switched to Firefox 4 Beta on Mac and it works there.
 One error I got though, when I click the WYSIWTF-tab it got stuck on
 Parsing... modal box.
 Console told me images.query [undefined] is not an object.

 API call to 
 http://www.mediawiki.org/w/api.php?action=querygenerator=imagestitles=Sandboxprop=infoimlimit=500format=json
 returned an empty array (the Sandbox page didn't contain any images at
 the time).

Thanks, fixed now.

 Another (that you already mentioned partially) is that when I went
 into WTF-mode the image suddenly changed from MW.org's local image
 to ENWP's local File:Example.jpg.
 Although I understand it doens't differentiate between local and
 commons, I think we should keep wiki-independance in mind from the
 start.
 ie. using wgVariables instead of 'en'.

Also fixed now, using wgContentLanguage and a different API query.

 Op 1 jan 2011, om 15:40 heeft Jan Paul Posma het volgende geschreven:


 What I would like is some discussion about
 * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
 perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
 * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
 throw at the general public
 * if anyone is willing to help me with that

 As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the
 end, it would become official Foundation code, with staff that
 supports it. Well, I can dream...

 You seem to want to do exactly the same thing as I'm doing, but in
 the browser only! Maybe you're interested in looking at 
 http://janpaulposma.nl/sle/wiki
 , http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-
 level_editing, 
 http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2010-October/050031.html
  and http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sentence-level_editing

 Anyway, I have also looked at doing parsing in the browser, which is
 quite interesting. WikiBasha also uses JS parsing, so maybe it's a
 good idea to look at that too. Trevor also made a JS parser, but I
 think it's not in SVN (yet).

 Regards,
 Jan Paul



 Right now there are three or four projects in active development
 (including Magnus' WYSIWTF en Sentence-level editing).
 How about working together ?

 Compare what the current status of the different projects is, what are
 the ultimate goals, which are closest to it ?
 Then import from others to it to make one awesome thing.

 Personaly I also prefer the non-WYSIWYG editing style. In other words:
 Showing what things are but staying in (in)direct contact
 with wikitext.

I'm not sure what's happening to that usability initiative template
folder thingy, which looked way cooler than mine, but never made a
live appearance.

The sentence-level editing looked great last time I checked, but
requires server-side mods IIRC, and seems to be limited to smaller
fixes. Maybe I'm wrong there, though. Not sure if we could join code,
as we do different things on the content preparation level; maybe
decent editor code? I could use some ;-)

I can see my solution and the sentence-level editing happily
co-existing, though!

Cheers,
Magnus

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