date:20080102

Re: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?

2008-01-02 Thread Blair Davis





I've tried using trees to mount AP's.  Too much sway for the
backhauls.  Altho, mesh might work there.



ralphlists wrote:

  Ahh
Thanks.
I had envisioned something like that, but figured the "legs" would be the
leggy things extending out.
You just mount your stuff on the top of that tower, then, I guess.
Not a  lot of them around N GA, but we got lots of pine trees  :-)

Ralph

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 5:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?

These are silos:

http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/performance_recommendations/ofcc/pub/SILO.htg/s
ilo2.gif

The round things are bins and the center is a grain leg aka bucket elevator:

http://www.grainbinsupply.com/images/bins.jpg




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "ralphlists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 3:56 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?


  
  
Thanks.
I don't understand it, but I did it 3 times. You can do a lot with line of
sight. 11 miles on 2.4 is never a problem for us when we have it.
It is hard for me to visualize your terrain or what a grain leg even is, 
but
I guess it must be like a silo or something.

Ralph


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of John Valenti
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:45 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?

Wow, thank you!
(really meant to send that message directly to you, but now the list
can see your plots, too)

It is flat here, but the trees are the problem for RF.

Do I understand the last plot correctly: that ignoring trees, a
2.4GHz signal would work for ~12 miles?  Amazing.

I feel lucky when I can get a 2.4 customer connected at better than
-80, and they are usually within a mile of a grain leg.


On December 29, at 1:54 AM December 29, ralphlists wrote:



  Went ahead and did it.
You were right.  Without considering trees, a 26 meter high tower
(grain
leg) on each end would do it.
I used a 200 mw radio and a 23 dBi panel antenna (like the
Deliberant 1A23
self contained radio).
Of course the Alvarion units would be the choice if you had the $$.

See the results at
http://brightlan.net/test.jpg   Plot over Mapquest
http://brightlan.net/test1.jpg   Plot over Google Maps
http://brightlan.net/test2.jpgYour grain leg with a 2.4
GHz  5.5
dBi omni

Just a quick demo of some of the power of Radiomobile

BTW- I was amazed at what you flatlanders can do on 2.4!

  





  
  
  
  

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-- 
Blair Davis

AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240

West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648

A division of:
Camp Communication Services, INC






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RE: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?

2008-01-02 Thread ralphlists

Ahh
Thanks.
I had envisioned something like that, but figured the "legs" would be the
leggy things extending out.
You just mount your stuff on the top of that tower, then, I guess.
Not a  lot of them around N GA, but we got lots of pine trees  :-)

Ralph

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 5:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?

These are silos:

http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/performance_recommendations/ofcc/pub/SILO.htg/s
ilo2.gif

The round things are bins and the center is a grain leg aka bucket elevator:

http://www.grainbinsupply.com/images/bins.jpg




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "ralphlists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 3:56 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?


> Thanks.
> I don't understand it, but I did it 3 times. You can do a lot with line of
> sight. 11 miles on 2.4 is never a problem for us when we have it.
> It is hard for me to visualize your terrain or what a grain leg even is, 
> but
> I guess it must be like a silo or something.
>
> Ralph
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of John Valenti
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:45 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?
>
> Wow, thank you!
> (really meant to send that message directly to you, but now the list
> can see your plots, too)
>
> It is flat here, but the trees are the problem for RF.
>
> Do I understand the last plot correctly: that ignoring trees, a
> 2.4GHz signal would work for ~12 miles?  Amazing.
>
> I feel lucky when I can get a 2.4 customer connected at better than
> -80, and they are usually within a mile of a grain leg.
>
>
> On December 29, at 1:54 AM December 29, ralphlists wrote:
>
>> Went ahead and did it.
>> You were right.  Without considering trees, a 26 meter high tower
>> (grain
>> leg) on each end would do it.
>> I used a 200 mw radio and a 23 dBi panel antenna (like the
>> Deliberant 1A23
>> self contained radio).
>> Of course the Alvarion units would be the choice if you had the $$.
>>
>> See the results at
>> http://brightlan.net/test.jpg   Plot over Mapquest
>> http://brightlan.net/test1.jpg   Plot over Google Maps
>> http://brightlan.net/test2.jpgYour grain leg with a 2.4
>> GHz  5.5
>> dBi omni
>>
>> Just a quick demo of some of the power of Radiomobile
>>
>> BTW- I was amazed at what you flatlanders can do on 2.4!
>>
>
>
>
>

> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>

> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
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>
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>
>
>
>


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Re: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?

2008-01-02 Thread Blair Davis





http://www.wmwisp.net/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=13

Click on the picture for Koeman Farms and you will see a grain leg.



ralphlists wrote:

  Thanks.
I don't understand it, but I did it 3 times. You can do a lot with line of
sight. 11 miles on 2.4 is never a problem for us when we have it.
It is hard for me to visualize your terrain or what a grain leg even is, but
I guess it must be like a silo or something.

Ralph


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of John Valenti
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:45 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?

Wow, thank you!
(really meant to send that message directly to you, but now the list  
can see your plots, too)

It is flat here, but the trees are the problem for RF.

Do I understand the last plot correctly: that ignoring trees, a  
2.4GHz signal would work for ~12 miles?  Amazing.

I feel lucky when I can get a 2.4 customer connected at better than  
-80, and they are usually within a mile of a grain leg.


On December 29, at 1:54 AM December 29, ralphlists wrote:

  
  
Went ahead and did it.
You were right.  Without considering trees, a 26 meter high tower  
(grain
leg) on each end would do it.
I used a 200 mw radio and a 23 dBi panel antenna (like the  
Deliberant 1A23
self contained radio).
Of course the Alvarion units would be the choice if you had the $$.

See the results at
http://brightlan.net/test.jpg   Plot over Mapquest
http://brightlan.net/test1.jpg   Plot over Google Maps
http://brightlan.net/test2.jpgYour grain leg with a 2.4  
GHz  5.5
dBi omni

Just a quick demo of some of the power of Radiomobile

BTW- I was amazed at what you flatlanders can do on 2.4!


  
  




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-- 
Blair Davis

AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240

West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648

A division of:
Camp Communication Services, INC






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Re: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?

2008-01-02 Thread Blair Davis


I have users on 2.4GHz at a range of 30+ miles with clear LoS.

On 5.8GHz I have links over 25 miles with clear LoS.

Just wish I could get that 900MHz stuff to work better.

John Valenti wrote:

Wow, thank you!
(really meant to send that message directly to you, but now the list 
can see your plots, too)


It is flat here, but the trees are the problem for RF.

Do I understand the last plot correctly: that ignoring trees, a 2.4GHz 
signal would work for ~12 miles?  Amazing.


I feel lucky when I can get a 2.4 customer connected at better than 
-80, and they are usually within a mile of a grain leg.



On December 29, at 1:54 AM December 29, ralphlists wrote:


Went ahead and did it.
You were right.  Without considering trees, a 26 meter high tower (grain
leg) on each end would do it.
I used a 200 mw radio and a 23 dBi panel antenna (like the Deliberant 
1A23

self contained radio).
Of course the Alvarion units would be the choice if you had the $$.

See the results at
http://brightlan.net/test.jpg   Plot over Mapquest
http://brightlan.net/test1.jpg   Plot over Google Maps
http://brightlan.net/test2.jpgYour grain leg with a 2.4 
GHz  5.5

dBi omni

Just a quick demo of some of the power of Radiomobile

BTW- I was amazed at what you flatlanders can do on 2.4!





 


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--
Blair Davis

AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240

West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648

A division of:
Camp Communication Services, INC




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Re: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?

2008-01-02 Thread Mike Hammett


These are silos:

http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/performance_recommendations/ofcc/pub/SILO.htg/silo2.gif

The round things are bins and the center is a grain leg aka bucket elevator:

http://www.grainbinsupply.com/images/bins.jpg




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "ralphlists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 3:56 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?



Thanks.
I don't understand it, but I did it 3 times. You can do a lot with line of
sight. 11 miles on 2.4 is never a problem for us when we have it.
It is hard for me to visualize your terrain or what a grain leg even is, 
but

I guess it must be like a silo or something.

Ralph


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Valenti
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:45 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?

Wow, thank you!
(really meant to send that message directly to you, but now the list
can see your plots, too)

It is flat here, but the trees are the problem for RF.

Do I understand the last plot correctly: that ignoring trees, a
2.4GHz signal would work for ~12 miles?  Amazing.

I feel lucky when I can get a 2.4 customer connected at better than
-80, and they are usually within a mile of a grain leg.


On December 29, at 1:54 AM December 29, ralphlists wrote:


Went ahead and did it.
You were right.  Without considering trees, a 26 meter high tower
(grain
leg) on each end would do it.
I used a 200 mw radio and a 23 dBi panel antenna (like the
Deliberant 1A23
self contained radio).
Of course the Alvarion units would be the choice if you had the $$.

See the results at
http://brightlan.net/test.jpg   Plot over Mapquest
http://brightlan.net/test1.jpg   Plot over Google Maps
http://brightlan.net/test2.jpgYour grain leg with a 2.4
GHz  5.5
dBi omni

Just a quick demo of some of the power of Radiomobile

BTW- I was amazed at what you flatlanders can do on 2.4!







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Re: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?

2008-01-02 Thread Mike Hammett

It took me a bit at first.  Once I figured it out, I considered my time 
investment invaluable.  Now if only I knew all the ins and outs of the 
program.  I know I don't use it to its potential.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "John Valenti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?



Ryan,

Thanks for that method, too.
I've done something similar with Delorme's TopoUSA software.

But I'm coming to the conclusion that Google Earth is probably fine  for 
around here. It is flat enough that the trees block the signal  within a 
mile or so.


-John   (pinning my hopes on the whitespaces...)

PS to Mike Hammett:  I've tried using Radio Mobile twice. Spent two+ 
hours each time and never figured it out at all.  Someday, I hope to 
devote more time to it.



On December 29, at 1:43 AM December 29, D. Ryan Spott wrote:

As a quick method, you can use National Geographic's Topo!  software. I 
live in a pretty hilly area. When folks call us for  service, my wife 
asks them their address and she puts it into  Google Maps. Google maps 
gives her their general lat and long.





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RE: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?

2008-01-02 Thread ralphlists

Thanks.
I don't understand it, but I did it 3 times. You can do a lot with line of
sight. 11 miles on 2.4 is never a problem for us when we have it.
It is hard for me to visualize your terrain or what a grain leg even is, but
I guess it must be like a silo or something.

Ralph

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Valenti
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:45 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?

Wow, thank you!
(really meant to send that message directly to you, but now the list  
can see your plots, too)

It is flat here, but the trees are the problem for RF.

Do I understand the last plot correctly: that ignoring trees, a  
2.4GHz signal would work for ~12 miles?  Amazing.

I feel lucky when I can get a 2.4 customer connected at better than  
-80, and they are usually within a mile of a grain leg.

On December 29, at 1:54 AM December 29, ralphlists wrote:

> Went ahead and did it.
> You were right.  Without considering trees, a 26 meter high tower  
> (grain
> leg) on each end would do it.
> I used a 200 mw radio and a 23 dBi panel antenna (like the  
> Deliberant 1A23
> self contained radio).
> Of course the Alvarion units would be the choice if you had the $$.
>
> See the results at
> http://brightlan.net/test.jpg   Plot over Mapquest
> http://brightlan.net/test1.jpg   Plot over Google Maps
> http://brightlan.net/test2.jpgYour grain leg with a 2.4  
> GHz  5.5
> dBi omni
>
> Just a quick demo of some of the power of Radiomobile
>
> BTW- I was amazed at what you flatlanders can do on 2.4!
>

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Re: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?

2008-01-02 Thread John Valenti


Wow, thank you!
(really meant to send that message directly to you, but now the list  
can see your plots, too)


It is flat here, but the trees are the problem for RF.

Do I understand the last plot correctly: that ignoring trees, a  
2.4GHz signal would work for ~12 miles?  Amazing.


I feel lucky when I can get a 2.4 customer connected at better than  
-80, and they are usually within a mile of a grain leg.



On December 29, at 1:54 AM December 29, ralphlists wrote:


Went ahead and did it.
You were right.  Without considering trees, a 26 meter high tower  
(grain

leg) on each end would do it.
I used a 200 mw radio and a 23 dBi panel antenna (like the  
Deliberant 1A23

self contained radio).
Of course the Alvarion units would be the choice if you had the $$.

See the results at
http://brightlan.net/test.jpg   Plot over Mapquest
http://brightlan.net/test1.jpg   Plot over Google Maps
http://brightlan.net/test2.jpgYour grain leg with a 2.4  
GHz  5.5

dBi omni

Just a quick demo of some of the power of Radiomobile

BTW- I was amazed at what you flatlanders can do on 2.4!






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Re: [WISPA] brain cramp, can someone jog my memory?

2008-01-02 Thread John Valenti


Ryan,

Thanks for that method, too.
I've done something similar with Delorme's TopoUSA software.

But I'm coming to the conclusion that Google Earth is probably fine  
for around here. It is flat enough that the trees block the signal  
within a mile or so.


-John   (pinning my hopes on the whitespaces...)

PS to Mike Hammett:  I've tried using Radio Mobile twice. Spent two+  
hours each time and never figured it out at all.  Someday, I hope to  
devote more time to it.



On December 29, at 1:43 AM December 29, D. Ryan Spott wrote:

As a quick method, you can use National Geographic's Topo!  
software. I live in a pretty hilly area. When folks call us for  
service, my wife asks them their address and she puts it into  
Google Maps. Google maps gives her their general lat and long.





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[WISPA] Contract wording

2008-01-02 Thread CHUCK PROFITO

We have always run point to multipoint for subscribers. We are thinking
about deploying a quasi mesh / repeater system in a difficult to serve area.
Do any of you use any special contract wording for mesh, especially covering
power requirements, etc. that you would be willing to share? 
Or if you would rather, e mailing me off list is also fine.
Thanks in advance.

Chuck Profito
209-988-7388
CV-ACCESS, INC
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Providing High Speed Broadband 
to Rural Central California


-




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RE: [WISPA] Radio Mobile

2008-01-02 Thread Brian Webster

Matt,
There are many things to consider with mapping data. SRTM and other 
terrain
files all have their native map projection and datum. It takes someone
strong in the GIS and mapping field to make sure these files get overlaid
and used properly without shifting any one of the layers out of alignment
with the other. I use various GIS tools to achieve these tasks. The USGS
does provide good quality clutter data for free but it does require someone
to find it and then get it in a format they can use and/or convert it to the
proper projection and datum to match their existing data. So to answer your
question, I prefer the free data the taxpayers paid for when available. I
have also paid for very high resolution clutter data (1 to 2 meter
resolution) but that gets expensive because that gets tediously created by
hand and someone has to pay for that. Vendor to vendor does not seem to
matter as much as converting it properly once obtained.

Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com 

-Original Message-
From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:39 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Radio Mobile

I have found most people don't purchase clutter data even when using the
commercial tools when used as part of a fixed wireless operation. They
generally just put in an average height to use. This is what we do as
well even though we purchased clutter data. Although, we aren't using
commercial software; our application was written in-house. We weren't
able to use the data because it didn't match up correctly with SRTM. The
data vendor suggested buying ground data to match the clutter data, but
we didn't want to pay for ground data when SRTM is free and good.

In your experience, have you been able to get clutter data to match up
with SRTM? If so, what resolution and what data vendor did you use?

-Matt

Brian Webster wrote:
> Mike,
>   As mentioned by another, try adjusting the height of one end or the 
> other
> to increase signal level. As Mac will tell you, higher on a site is not
> always better. If you can engineer a path to obstruct as much of even
number
> Fresnel zones as possible it will help your signal level. Even and odd
> number Fresnel zones cancel each other out. Using an obstruction to cover
up
> as many even number zones as possible gives some gain. This is why you
hear
> people say that you want to design a microwave backhaul with a .6 Fresnel
> zone clearance. The danger in doing that with Radio Mobile, is the level
of
> detail in your terrain files. Radio Mobile is capable of using 10 meter
> resolution terrain data from the USGS Seamless data distribution site (the
> default that the program downloads from the internet is 30 meter), or if
you
> want, Roger (the Radio Mobile author) can create the data in SRTM format
to
> use in Radio Mobile http://www.lurodata.com/. While this gives excellent
> terrain data details, it still does not show your clutter (trees,
> buildings). Take a look at this site to see the differences in terrain
data
> http://www.sector14.net/~curt/ned/
>
>   You can do some visualization of clutter data in Radio Mobile at 1
> kilometer resolution for free. If you download this file
> http://www.geog.umd.edu/landcover/1km-map/UMD1km_L.zip you will have the
> world clutter data at 1 KM resolution. This file can then be overlaid in
> Radio Mobile as a map layer. It will not let you use it as part of a
> prediction, but you can get an idea of the type of land cover to expect
for
> any given area. You can also use this file in conjunction with the "RM
Path"
> program in Radio Mobile to insert the clutter in your path profile
> inspections. To do this you must first edit the "landheight.dat" file
(using
> notepad) in your Radio Mobile main directory. The numbers in this file
> correspond to the color coded legend on a land cover map layer merge. Each
> value is in meters and would be changed to represent the average clutter
> heights for each clutter class in your area. Once this is complete you
would
> then do a path profile in Radio Mobile. In that window do a file "export
to
> RMPath", chose the custom option and I like to use 1000 points in my
export.
> This will save a file (name it whatever you want or just overwrite the
> default) and open the RM Path program window. In this path profile you
will
> see the terrain cross section with the clutter data layered on top. The
> colors match what you would see as a merged layer on the map. At this
point
> you will NOT have a new signal level calculated based on clutter
absorption,
> but you will know what to expect for path blockages. You can also manually
> edit the test file that was exported to insert any know obstructions in
your
> path. Keep in mind, this data is very general in that it paints a whole
> square kilometer with the same class of clutter. Its not the best in the
> world, but for free it

Re: [WISPA] Radio Mobile

2008-01-02 Thread Matt Liotta

I have found most people don't purchase clutter data even when using the 
commercial tools when used as part of a fixed wireless operation. They 
generally just put in an average height to use. This is what we do as 
well even though we purchased clutter data. Although, we aren't using 
commercial software; our application was written in-house. We weren't 
able to use the data because it didn't match up correctly with SRTM. The 
data vendor suggested buying ground data to match the clutter data, but 
we didn't want to pay for ground data when SRTM is free and good.


In your experience, have you been able to get clutter data to match up 
with SRTM? If so, what resolution and what data vendor did you use?


-Matt

Brian Webster wrote:

Mike,
As mentioned by another, try adjusting the height of one end or the 
other
to increase signal level. As Mac will tell you, higher on a site is not
always better. If you can engineer a path to obstruct as much of even number
Fresnel zones as possible it will help your signal level. Even and odd
number Fresnel zones cancel each other out. Using an obstruction to cover up
as many even number zones as possible gives some gain. This is why you hear
people say that you want to design a microwave backhaul with a .6 Fresnel
zone clearance. The danger in doing that with Radio Mobile, is the level of
detail in your terrain files. Radio Mobile is capable of using 10 meter
resolution terrain data from the USGS Seamless data distribution site (the
default that the program downloads from the internet is 30 meter), or if you
want, Roger (the Radio Mobile author) can create the data in SRTM format to
use in Radio Mobile http://www.lurodata.com/. While this gives excellent
terrain data details, it still does not show your clutter (trees,
buildings). Take a look at this site to see the differences in terrain data
http://www.sector14.net/~curt/ned/

You can do some visualization of clutter data in Radio Mobile at 1
kilometer resolution for free. If you download this file
http://www.geog.umd.edu/landcover/1km-map/UMD1km_L.zip you will have the
world clutter data at 1 KM resolution. This file can then be overlaid in
Radio Mobile as a map layer. It will not let you use it as part of a
prediction, but you can get an idea of the type of land cover to expect for
any given area. You can also use this file in conjunction with the "RM Path"
program in Radio Mobile to insert the clutter in your path profile
inspections. To do this you must first edit the "landheight.dat" file (using
notepad) in your Radio Mobile main directory. The numbers in this file
correspond to the color coded legend on a land cover map layer merge. Each
value is in meters and would be changed to represent the average clutter
heights for each clutter class in your area. Once this is complete you would
then do a path profile in Radio Mobile. In that window do a file "export to
RMPath", chose the custom option and I like to use 1000 points in my export.
This will save a file (name it whatever you want or just overwrite the
default) and open the RM Path program window. In this path profile you will
see the terrain cross section with the clutter data layered on top. The
colors match what you would see as a merged layer on the map. At this point
you will NOT have a new signal level calculated based on clutter absorption,
but you will know what to expect for path blockages. You can also manually
edit the test file that was exported to insert any know obstructions in your
path. Keep in mind, this data is very general in that it paints a whole
square kilometer with the same class of clutter. Its not the best in the
world, but for free it gives you a lot more to look at before you do a truck
roll. This used in conjunction with Google Earth is just one more tool a
WISP can use.

I have been in the wireless industry for 18 years (including Senior RF
Engineering Manager at EarthLink). I currently have Planet, ICS Telecom by
ATDI and Radio Mobile as RF prediction tools. While Radio Mobile does not do
many of the advanced features I need to design PCS and Cellular networks, I
will attest that given the same data to start with, I can do predictions
that match or beat the expensive commercial tools when it comes to simple
field strength plots (which is what you want for coverage maps and path
studies). Where the commercial tools excel, is when I can get high
resolution clutter and building data. Radio Mobile simply does not have
these capabilities (although I work with the author on a regular basis to
improve Radio Mobile). I would highly recommend each WISP get one person on
their staff to become somewhat proficient in this software. It can save you
a lot of aggravation.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:15 PM
To: WISPA General List
S

RE: [WISPA] Radio Mobile

2008-01-02 Thread Brian Webster

Mike,
As mentioned by another, try adjusting the height of one end or the 
other
to increase signal level. As Mac will tell you, higher on a site is not
always better. If you can engineer a path to obstruct as much of even number
Fresnel zones as possible it will help your signal level. Even and odd
number Fresnel zones cancel each other out. Using an obstruction to cover up
as many even number zones as possible gives some gain. This is why you hear
people say that you want to design a microwave backhaul with a .6 Fresnel
zone clearance. The danger in doing that with Radio Mobile, is the level of
detail in your terrain files. Radio Mobile is capable of using 10 meter
resolution terrain data from the USGS Seamless data distribution site (the
default that the program downloads from the internet is 30 meter), or if you
want, Roger (the Radio Mobile author) can create the data in SRTM format to
use in Radio Mobile http://www.lurodata.com/. While this gives excellent
terrain data details, it still does not show your clutter (trees,
buildings). Take a look at this site to see the differences in terrain data
http://www.sector14.net/~curt/ned/

You can do some visualization of clutter data in Radio Mobile at 1
kilometer resolution for free. If you download this file
http://www.geog.umd.edu/landcover/1km-map/UMD1km_L.zip you will have the
world clutter data at 1 KM resolution. This file can then be overlaid in
Radio Mobile as a map layer. It will not let you use it as part of a
prediction, but you can get an idea of the type of land cover to expect for
any given area. You can also use this file in conjunction with the "RM Path"
program in Radio Mobile to insert the clutter in your path profile
inspections. To do this you must first edit the "landheight.dat" file (using
notepad) in your Radio Mobile main directory. The numbers in this file
correspond to the color coded legend on a land cover map layer merge. Each
value is in meters and would be changed to represent the average clutter
heights for each clutter class in your area. Once this is complete you would
then do a path profile in Radio Mobile. In that window do a file "export to
RMPath", chose the custom option and I like to use 1000 points in my export.
This will save a file (name it whatever you want or just overwrite the
default) and open the RM Path program window. In this path profile you will
see the terrain cross section with the clutter data layered on top. The
colors match what you would see as a merged layer on the map. At this point
you will NOT have a new signal level calculated based on clutter absorption,
but you will know what to expect for path blockages. You can also manually
edit the test file that was exported to insert any know obstructions in your
path. Keep in mind, this data is very general in that it paints a whole
square kilometer with the same class of clutter. Its not the best in the
world, but for free it gives you a lot more to look at before you do a truck
roll. This used in conjunction with Google Earth is just one more tool a
WISP can use.

I have been in the wireless industry for 18 years (including Senior RF
Engineering Manager at EarthLink). I currently have Planet, ICS Telecom by
ATDI and Radio Mobile as RF prediction tools. While Radio Mobile does not do
many of the advanced features I need to design PCS and Cellular networks, I
will attest that given the same data to start with, I can do predictions
that match or beat the expensive commercial tools when it comes to simple
field strength plots (which is what you want for coverage maps and path
studies). Where the commercial tools excel, is when I can get high
resolution clutter and building data. Radio Mobile simply does not have
these capabilities (although I work with the author on a regular basis to
improve Radio Mobile). I would highly recommend each WISP get one person on
their staff to become somewhat proficient in this software. It can save you
a lot of aggravation.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:15 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Radio Mobile


Right, the AP isn't directly at the client, but it says there's only 0.8 db
of loss due to that.  It says I lose 7.4 dB due to obstruction (when I have
a 1.4 Fresnel zone) and 6.6 due to statistics.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message -
From: "Brian Webster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:00 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Radio Mobile


> Radio Mobile is not doing a simple free space loss calculation. There will
> be a fade margin factored in based on the numbers you use for mode of
> variability. If you open the path profile window then do a "view"
> "details"
> you will get a text window tha

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