Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

[Robert West]

The proverbial "Gray Area" open to the interpretation of whomever is looking
to cause you trouble.



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:12 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

I don't believe there is an official answer.  I believe "professional" 
simply means someone that knows their rear from a hole in the ground.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:53 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

> "Professionally"? Specifically a holder of which FCC license?
>
> On Dec 15, 2009, at 1:04 PM, Matt Jenkins wrote:
>
>> According to Ubiquiti themselves and the FCC:
>>
>> This equipment is required to be professionally installed
>>
>> The device has been designed to operate with the antennas listed below
>> and having a maximum gain of 30dBi. Antennas not included in this list
>> or having a gain greater than 30dBi are strictly prohibited for use with
>> this device. The required antenna impedance is 50 ohms
>>
>> 2x2 Point-To-Point Use
>>
>> Ubiquiti RD-5G-30
>>
>> Ubiquiti RP-5G-24
>>
>> Ubiquiti AMS-5G-20
>>
>> 1x1 Point-To-Point Use
>>
>> Ubiquiti AG-5G-30
>>
>> 2x2 Point-To-MultiPoint Use
>>
>> Ubiquiti O-5G-7
>>
>> Operation is restricted to Point-To-Point use for antenass other than
>> the Ubiquiti O-5G-7 listed above.
>>
>>
>> That means the only legal antenna is a 7db omni for PTMP use.
>>
>> Scott Piehn wrote:
>>> Looking for input on which antennas to use
>>> Was mentioned briefly on one of the lists that using a 16-120 instead of

>>> a 19-120 would give better coverage, We have 7 or so 19-120's deployed 
>>> and they just seem to be very "particular".  seems about 60 degree wide,

>>> and 2 mile out sweet spot.
>>>
>>> Looking based on
>>> covering out to 5 miles max (think that is the current limit of NS5M)
>>> tower is 200 - 250 on a hill.  could be up to 350' above people
>>> or tower (antenna) is 100' above people
>>> 360 degree around tower
>>>
>>>
>>> Apologies if this is the wrong list, can't keep them straight with what 
>>> is allowed on which.
>>>
>>> -
>>> Scott Piehn
>>>
>>>
>>>


>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>


>>>
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>>
>>
>>


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>
>
>
>


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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[Chuck Bartosch]

On Dec 15, 2009, at 5:27 PM, MDK wrote:

> There's lots of thinking outside the box.   It is interesting... but like a 
> broken record, every time someone says "we need think out side the box" the 
> automatic response is "have government do it" as if that's "innovation". 
> Cripes.
> 
> And yes, I'm a broken record.I watch people on this list do incredible 
> due diligence as to which equipment to use,  they do entirely rational and 
> reasonable things but change the subject, and instantly, they abandon every 
> semblance of rationality and their eyes turn into spinning spirals and they 
> start repeating...  "Government is holy and our savior, government is holy 
> and our savior"

Odd. I haven't ever heard ANYONE on this or any WISPA list say that (or 
anything remotely like that). The moment someone doesn't curse the government 
and everything it does, you apparently hear "government is holy..." or 
whatever. And not everyone perceives the government simplistically as all good 
or all bad. You might think it is all bad, outside of the military, but that 
doesn't mean anyone who doesn't agree thinks it is "all good". There is room 
for nuance here, really there is.

>  without the slightest evidence of anything except 
> disastrous incompetence coming from DC and our state capitals.
> 
> What is it that blocks so many people's minds from objectively evaluating 
> the performance of government just as they would wireless equipment, an 
> anti-virus, a car, a can opener, or even safety gear? It's some kind of 
> religion?Maybe?   I dunno.

Honestly, the reverse seems the situation to me. You're religiously 
anti-government and any evidence that counters your beliefs you ignore or 
disparage.

> I've repeated till I’m blue in the face, and nobody can point to a single 
> iota of evidence that we should have them do squat for us...   But, the 
> drumbeat continues.   Why?Drugs?   Hypnotism?   Mass delusions?What 
> the heck is it?

I think people have given up trying to point out their evidence to you. Any 
time they present evidence to you (like Tim did), you claim it's irrational. Do 
you seriously believe that anything that counters your position is irrational, 
by definition?

By the way, Brian is quite conservative (not to "out" him). He and I talk 
off-line about things like this and he's by no means on the "left".

But seriously, let's move this to WISPA-CHAT? Though I don't expect to insert 
myself into this again, I've copied that list and hope that responses go there 
instead.

Chuck

> 
> 
> 
> --
> From: "Brian Webster" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:54 AM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's
> 
>> Mark,
>>You really sound like a broken record with every topic you post.
>> 
>> 
>> I posted the article to force people to think outside the box in regards 
>> to
>> broadband and what we think of how it is used today and the fact that we
>> cannot necessarily conceive all the uses in the future. Keeping an open 
>> mind
>> as to unknown possibilities I guess :-)
>> 
>> Thank You,
>> Brian Webster
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:50 PM, MDK  wrote:
>> 
>>> There's only one thing you REALLY need to know about it:
>>> 
>>> The TVA was the source of much fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars.So
>>> was the REA.
>>> 
>>> Creating monopolies has resulted in highly inefficient business models 
>>> for
>>> electricity, and there's only space in this game for "big corporations".
>>> Just think "Enron".Government thought it could build a pretend free
>>> market so it could have the benefits of a free market, but still control
>>> the
>>> game.Enron (and other scandals ) was the result.You can't "fake" 
>>> a
>>> free market.You can only build a set of rules for creative types to 
>>> use
>>> to "game" the system. You know, kind of how our regulators and 
>>> certain
>>> government sponsored entities created a massive debt bubble that still
>>> threatens our nation. EVERY effort to do this will result in either
>>> extremely inefficient business models...  Or massive fraud.
>>> 
>>> We have paid a lot for this monopoly status, we're still paying for it, 
>>> and
>>> it will continue to absorb our hard earned wealth at immoral rates until
>>> people stop thinking that "public" = righteous.
>>> 
>>> There's always going to be excuses for those have an ideological belief 
>>> in
>>> superiority of socialized services to advocate them with emotional 
>>> appeals.
>>> There's just no reason for any person with an IQ above refrigerator
>>> temperature to fall for it.There is only one reason to advocate
>>> socialized services, and that's because there's political and partisan
>>> power
>>> to be derived from controlling essential services with political power.
>>> When the mob does it by intimidation, we call it criminal.   When 
>>>

Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

[Mike Hammett]

I don't believe there is an official answer.  I believe "professional" 
simply means someone that knows their rear from a hole in the ground.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:53 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

> "Professionally"? Specifically a holder of which FCC license?
>
> On Dec 15, 2009, at 1:04 PM, Matt Jenkins wrote:
>
>> According to Ubiquiti themselves and the FCC:
>>
>> This equipment is required to be professionally installed
>>
>> The device has been designed to operate with the antennas listed below
>> and having a maximum gain of 30dBi. Antennas not included in this list
>> or having a gain greater than 30dBi are strictly prohibited for use with
>> this device. The required antenna impedance is 50 ohms
>>
>> 2x2 Point-To-Point Use
>>
>> Ubiquiti RD-5G-30
>>
>> Ubiquiti RP-5G-24
>>
>> Ubiquiti AMS-5G-20
>>
>> 1x1 Point-To-Point Use
>>
>> Ubiquiti AG-5G-30
>>
>> 2x2 Point-To-MultiPoint Use
>>
>> Ubiquiti O-5G-7
>>
>> Operation is restricted to Point-To-Point use for antenass other than
>> the Ubiquiti O-5G-7 listed above.
>>
>>
>> That means the only legal antenna is a 7db omni for PTMP use.
>>
>> Scott Piehn wrote:
>>> Looking for input on which antennas to use
>>> Was mentioned briefly on one of the lists that using a 16-120 instead of 
>>> a 19-120 would give better coverage, We have 7 or so 19-120's deployed 
>>> and they just seem to be very "particular".  seems about 60 degree wide, 
>>> and 2 mile out sweet spot.
>>>
>>> Looking based on
>>> covering out to 5 miles max (think that is the current limit of NS5M)
>>> tower is 200 - 250 on a hill.  could be up to 350' above people
>>> or tower (antenna) is 100' above people
>>> 360 degree around tower
>>>
>>>
>>> Apologies if this is the wrong list, can't keep them straight with what 
>>> is allowed on which.
>>>
>>> -
>>> Scott Piehn
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
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> 
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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

[MDK]

So far as I can tell, there is no real answer to that question.

What is a "professional" and who is, and how do they become one...  Nobody 
has a good answer for.



--
From: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:53 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

> "Professionally"? Specifically a holder of which FCC license?
>
> On Dec 15, 2009, at 1:04 PM, Matt Jenkins wrote:
>
>> According to Ubiquiti themselves and the FCC:
>>
 




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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

[os10rules]

"Professionally"? Specifically a holder of which FCC license?

On Dec 15, 2009, at 1:04 PM, Matt Jenkins wrote:

> According to Ubiquiti themselves and the FCC:
> 
> This equipment is required to be professionally installed
> 
> The device has been designed to operate with the antennas listed below 
> and having a maximum gain of 30dBi. Antennas not included in this list 
> or having a gain greater than 30dBi are strictly prohibited for use with 
> this device. The required antenna impedance is 50 ohms
> 
> 2x2 Point-To-Point Use
> 
> Ubiquiti RD-5G-30
> 
> Ubiquiti RP-5G-24
> 
> Ubiquiti AMS-5G-20
> 
> 1x1 Point-To-Point Use
> 
> Ubiquiti AG-5G-30
> 
> 2x2 Point-To-MultiPoint Use
> 
> Ubiquiti O-5G-7
> 
> Operation is restricted to Point-To-Point use for antenass other than 
> the Ubiquiti O-5G-7 listed above.
> 
> 
> That means the only legal antenna is a 7db omni for PTMP use.
> 
> Scott Piehn wrote:
>> Looking for input on which antennas to use
>> Was mentioned briefly on one of the lists that using a 16-120 instead of a 
>> 19-120 would give better coverage, We have 7 or so 19-120's deployed and 
>> they just seem to be very "particular".  seems about 60 degree wide, and 2 
>> mile out sweet spot.  
>> 
>> Looking based on 
>> covering out to 5 miles max (think that is the current limit of NS5M)
>> tower is 200 - 250 on a hill.  could be up to 350' above people
>> or tower (antenna) is 100' above people
>> 360 degree around tower
>> 
>> 
>> Apologies if this is the wrong list, can't keep them straight with what is 
>> allowed on which.
>> 
>> -
>> Scott Piehn
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>> 
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>> 
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>> 
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> 
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[RickG]

No, but our forefathers did!

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 1:47 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:30, MDK  wrote:
>
> > Why is it we think that the same people who cannot clean up Hanford (they
> > have yet to clean ONE SINGLE TANK OF WASTE in decades of effort!) despite
> > decades of promises and countless billions in budget overruns,  cannot
> > regulate the banks, who ran their own post office into the ground, who
> > committed fraud against their OWN bank, who can't even run their own
> > cafeteria worth a damn
> >
> >
> Not everyone agrees with your pessimistic assessment of government.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[RickG]

This is the truth. I worked in Senior Management at a REA. Hated the
mentality. -RickG

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:50 PM, MDK  wrote:

> There's only one thing you REALLY need to know about it:
>
> The TVA was the source of much fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars.So
> was the REA.
>
> Creating monopolies has resulted in highly inefficient business models for
> electricity, and there's only space in this game for "big corporations".
> Just think "Enron".Government thought it could build a pretend free
> market so it could have the benefits of a free market, but still control
> the
> game.Enron (and other scandals ) was the result.You can't "fake" a
> free market.You can only build a set of rules for creative types to use
> to "game" the system. You know, kind of how our regulators and certain
> government sponsored entities created a massive debt bubble that still
> threatens our nation. EVERY effort to do this will result in either
> extremely inefficient business models...  Or massive fraud.
>
> We have paid a lot for this monopoly status, we're still paying for it, and
> it will continue to absorb our hard earned wealth at immoral rates until
> people stop thinking that "public" = righteous.
>
> There's always going to be excuses for those have an ideological belief in
> superiority of socialized services to advocate them with emotional appeals.
> There's just no reason for any person with an IQ above refrigerator
> temperature to fall for it.There is only one reason to advocate
> socialized services, and that's because there's political and partisan
> power
> to be derived from controlling essential services with political power.
> When the mob does it by intimidation, we call it criminal.   When Congress
> does it, a certain number of people swoon in awe of their righteousness,
> while the rest of us recoil in disgust.There is, however, no actual
> difference between Congress controlling access to our needs and the mob
> doing it.
>
>
> --
> From: "Brian Webster" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:42 AM
> To: "WISPA List" ; ;
> ; "WISPA Board Members List" 
> Subject: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's
>
> > I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared to
> > electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the early
> > 1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to
> > electricity
> > (and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:
> >
> > The Killer App of 1900 
> > by Glenn Fleishman , 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM
> >
> > It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
> > electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and
> > cities,
> > to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband availability
> > today.
> >
> > http://publicola.net/?p=20687
> >
> > Thank You,
> > Brian Webster
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[Robert West]

It could be because not all facets of "government" is bad and not all are
good.  When a group of people get to be a a certain size, the need for
government, or the tending to common needs, arise.  The idea of government
is totally rational and reasonable, how it's executed is the cause of the
variables.  Some have a bad experience with one part of it while another
touches nothing but good.  The view is different from where each of us
stand.

This is why a general discussion of "government" or politics will be never
ending or even some that are specific, as this discussion started out being.


Anyone want to debate the existence of Buddha or the greatness of the Dalai
Lama?  

No one on this list will come to a complete agreement even though each and
everyone has their own logic and reason.



Respectfully  Chill, dude.


Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of MDK
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 5:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

There's lots of thinking outside the box.   It is interesting... but like a 
broken record, every time someone says "we need think out side the box" the 
automatic response is "have government do it" as if that's "innovation". 
Cripes.

And yes, I'm a broken record.I watch people on this list do incredible 
due diligence as to which equipment to use,  they do entirely rational and 
reasonable things but change the subject, and instantly, they abandon every 
semblance of rationality and their eyes turn into spinning spirals and they 
start repeating...  "Government is holy and our savior, government is holy 
and our savior"  without the slightest evidence of anything except 
disastrous incompetence coming from DC and our state capitals.

What is it that blocks so many people's minds from objectively evaluating 
the performance of government just as they would wireless equipment, an 
anti-virus, a car, a can opener, or even safety gear? It's some kind of 
religion?Maybe?   I dunno.

I've repeated till I'm blue in the face, and nobody can point to a single 
iota of evidence that we should have them do squat for us...   But, the 
drumbeat continues.   Why?Drugs?   Hypnotism?   Mass delusions?What 
the heck is it?



--
From: "Brian Webster" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:54 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

> Mark,
> You really sound like a broken record with every topic you post.
>
>
> I posted the article to force people to think outside the box in regards 
> to
> broadband and what we think of how it is used today and the fact that we
> cannot necessarily conceive all the uses in the future. Keeping an open 
> mind
> as to unknown possibilities I guess :-)
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:50 PM, MDK  wrote:
>
>> There's only one thing you REALLY need to know about it:
>>
>> The TVA was the source of much fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars.So
>> was the REA.
>>
>> Creating monopolies has resulted in highly inefficient business models 
>> for
>> electricity, and there's only space in this game for "big corporations".
>> Just think "Enron".Government thought it could build a pretend free
>> market so it could have the benefits of a free market, but still control
>> the
>> game.Enron (and other scandals ) was the result.You can't "fake" 
>> a
>> free market.You can only build a set of rules for creative types to 
>> use
>> to "game" the system. You know, kind of how our regulators and 
>> certain
>> government sponsored entities created a massive debt bubble that still
>> threatens our nation. EVERY effort to do this will result in either
>> extremely inefficient business models...  Or massive fraud.
>>
>> We have paid a lot for this monopoly status, we're still paying for it, 
>> and
>> it will continue to absorb our hard earned wealth at immoral rates until
>> people stop thinking that "public" = righteous.
>>
>> There's always going to be excuses for those have an ideological belief 
>> in
>> superiority of socialized services to advocate them with emotional 
>> appeals.
>> There's just no reason for any person with an IQ above refrigerator
>> temperature to fall for it.There is only one reason to advocate
>> socialized services, and that's because there's political and partisan
>> power
>> to be derived from controlling essential services with political power.
>> When the mob does it by intimidation, we call it criminal.   When 
>> Congress
>> does it, a certain number of people swoon in awe of their righteousness,
>> while the rest of us recoil in disgust.There is, however, no actual
>> difference between Congress controlling access to our needs and the mob
>> doing it.
>>
>>
>> ---

Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

[MDK]

Yeah, that's kind of true.But I'm not quite understanding your context. 
Utilities, that is, gas, electricity, etc, are generally private companies 
and get their rates set for them.   All they have to do to get a rate 
increase is prove they're losing money.

While they're always careful to show "nominal profit" in accounting, the 
business models are rarely efficient.   They could no more compete in an 
open market than you or I could flap our arms and fly.   They just play a 
game of "keep the politicians happy" and they get lifetime security AND 
profits.

You'll never see the power company using old trucks and making do with cheap 
office space.Their version of "budgeting" is "how to make sure all the 
money is spent" each year, in order to justify the rates they charge.

That game sound familiar?That's how EVERY agency operates financially. 
BTW, that's how every non-profit works too.

Why can't I play it? Just askin.





--
From: "Robert West" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:04 AM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

> Walks on the edge of survival.  Most non-profits rely on outside funding.
> An organization that is set up to serve the people and not make a profit 
> is
> usually a careful balance unless they have a perpetual endowment.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of MDK
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:36 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>
> Walks on the edge of what?
>
> For many decades, we paid HUGE per minute prices for long distance.And
> rather large sums just to have a phone, for that matter. The telcos
> innovated nothing.   They thought of "innovation" as some small thing 
> every
> 20 years.
>
> Why?   You know the answer.   No free market.
>
> Once finally got the door busted down, and competition entered...   Voice
> services, long distance or not, cost so little they are insignificant.
> And the range of services exploded.
>
> Do you want the ISP business to do the same?
>
> Just get Uncle Sam involved and it'll come to a screeching halt, all us
> small players will go away, and we'll have non evolutionary communications
> for a few decades.
>
> Fortunately, it seems the cat is out of the bag, and we're too hard to 
> stuff
>
> back in, though the Congress and FCC so badly want to.
>
> Medicare refused to pay for services and as a result, my mother died 20
> years too soon.
> The VA medical system is unresponsive.   My father died of rather 
> pointless
> issues in a VA hospital because the care just isn't... "there".
> Social Security is a scam that makes Madoff look like Robin Hood.
> Government created monopolies and we suffered for decades because of 
> them...
>
> still do.
>
> I read somewhere in this thread that I or someone had claimed the free
> market will do everything.   NO, it will not.   But it will do the  best
> that can be done.   And government will do the worst.
>
> And I'll stake my LIFE on that.
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Robert West" 
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 1:55 PM
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>
>> But none of those would work unless they were setup as a not for profit.
>> Any entity that is to serve the people AND generate profit walks on the
>> edge.
>>
>> Bob-
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of MDK
>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 4:37 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>>
>>
>> And each of these is the evidence I have that I do NOT want them doing
>> anything more, and I want them OUT of those things, as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Tim Sylvester" 
>> Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 5:27 PM
>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>>
>>> Yes, I am amazed. Amazed by the bitching and whining about government on
>>> this list by people who ...
>>>
>>> - sell wireless service using spectrum "owned" by everyone and allocated
>>> to
>>> them by the FCC for free or low cost.
>>> - sell access to the Internet, a network originally funded and developed
>>> by
>>> DARPA and later funded by the National Science Foundation.
>>> - drive on roads funded with taxpayer dollars and maintained by the
>>> government.
>>> - sell Internet service in rural areas to farmers that receive billions
>>> in
>>> government subsidies per year.
>>> - connect CPE equipment to electrical service that was funded by the
>>> Rural
>>> Electric Administration.
>>> - use VA health services.
>>> - will use Medicare and Soc

Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[MDK]

There's lots of thinking outside the box.   It is interesting... but like a 
broken record, every time someone says "we need think out side the box" the 
automatic response is "have government do it" as if that's "innovation". 
Cripes.

And yes, I'm a broken record.I watch people on this list do incredible 
due diligence as to which equipment to use,  they do entirely rational and 
reasonable things but change the subject, and instantly, they abandon every 
semblance of rationality and their eyes turn into spinning spirals and they 
start repeating...  "Government is holy and our savior, government is holy 
and our savior"  without the slightest evidence of anything except 
disastrous incompetence coming from DC and our state capitals.

What is it that blocks so many people's minds from objectively evaluating 
the performance of government just as they would wireless equipment, an 
anti-virus, a car, a can opener, or even safety gear? It's some kind of 
religion?Maybe?   I dunno.

I've repeated till I’m blue in the face, and nobody can point to a single 
iota of evidence that we should have them do squat for us...   But, the 
drumbeat continues.   Why?Drugs?   Hypnotism?   Mass delusions?What 
the heck is it?



--
From: "Brian Webster" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:54 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

> Mark,
> You really sound like a broken record with every topic you post.
>
>
> I posted the article to force people to think outside the box in regards 
> to
> broadband and what we think of how it is used today and the fact that we
> cannot necessarily conceive all the uses in the future. Keeping an open 
> mind
> as to unknown possibilities I guess :-)
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:50 PM, MDK  wrote:
>
>> There's only one thing you REALLY need to know about it:
>>
>> The TVA was the source of much fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars.So
>> was the REA.
>>
>> Creating monopolies has resulted in highly inefficient business models 
>> for
>> electricity, and there's only space in this game for "big corporations".
>> Just think "Enron".Government thought it could build a pretend free
>> market so it could have the benefits of a free market, but still control
>> the
>> game.Enron (and other scandals ) was the result.You can't "fake" 
>> a
>> free market.You can only build a set of rules for creative types to 
>> use
>> to "game" the system. You know, kind of how our regulators and 
>> certain
>> government sponsored entities created a massive debt bubble that still
>> threatens our nation. EVERY effort to do this will result in either
>> extremely inefficient business models...  Or massive fraud.
>>
>> We have paid a lot for this monopoly status, we're still paying for it, 
>> and
>> it will continue to absorb our hard earned wealth at immoral rates until
>> people stop thinking that "public" = righteous.
>>
>> There's always going to be excuses for those have an ideological belief 
>> in
>> superiority of socialized services to advocate them with emotional 
>> appeals.
>> There's just no reason for any person with an IQ above refrigerator
>> temperature to fall for it.There is only one reason to advocate
>> socialized services, and that's because there's political and partisan
>> power
>> to be derived from controlling essential services with political power.
>> When the mob does it by intimidation, we call it criminal.   When 
>> Congress
>> does it, a certain number of people swoon in awe of their righteousness,
>> while the rest of us recoil in disgust.There is, however, no actual
>> difference between Congress controlling access to our needs and the mob
>> doing it.
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Brian Webster" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:42 AM
>> To: "WISPA List" ; ;
>> ; "WISPA Board Members List" 
>> Subject: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's
>>
>> > I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared 
>> > to
>> > electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the 
>> > early
>> > 1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to
>> > electricity
>> > (and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:
>> >
>> > The Killer App of 1900 
>> > by Glenn Fleishman , 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM
>> >
>> > It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
>> > electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and
>> > cities,
>> > to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband 
>> > availability
>> > today.
>> >
>> > http://publicola.net/?p=20687
>> >
>> > Thank You,
>> > Brian Webster
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> >

Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[MDK]

Of course they don't.Now, can you provide me ANY evidence to back up the 
notion that government is basically utterly incompetent at most things, 
especially when it comes to providing services to us?

Of course not.Every agency, service, etc, is prime evidence for why I 
think precisely as I do.

I'm just asking people to be rational, not just "have a rosy assessment 
without evidence".



--
From: "David E. Smith" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:47 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:30, MDK  wrote:
>
>> Why is it we think that the same people who cannot clean up Hanford (they
>> have yet to clean ONE SINGLE TANK OF WASTE in decades of effort!) despite
>> decades of promises and countless billions in budget overruns,  cannot
>> regulate the banks, who ran their own post office into the ground, who
>> committed fraud against their OWN bank, who can't even run their own
>> cafeteria worth a damn
>>
>>
> Not everyone agrees with your pessimistic assessment of government.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

[Robert West]

My head is cloudy here..  So  5.8 CPE can be used with a 30dbi antenna?
I can see that but it that true that it can be considered a ptp just because
it's only talking to one far point yet the AP is ptmp?  I see the logic but
the FCC will go for that?  

Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

> Have they relaxed the rules on certification?

No they have not.

Most likely Ubiquiti has done this to avoid having to put peak power limits 
on their radio hardware.
26db radio + 7 dbi omni = 33db, less than 36db allowable limit.

If they included larger sector antennas to be certified with the hardware, 
they might get asked to hardset reduce max power of the radios, to comply 
with FCC EIRP limits for that specific configuration.

However, if a professional installer uses a higher gain antenns, such as a 
20db sector, and manually sets the transmit power of the radio down to 16db,

they are still within legal Part-15 EIRP rules.
We've been through this before... individually the parts are FCC certified 
under modular component rules (example a mpci card in a laptop) and that 
might be all thats necessary to allow the parts to be legally sold and 
distributed.  The same rules that would apply to StarOS, Mikrotik, or any 
OEM product apply in the same way to Ubiquiti.

Allthough it might be evading the issue through a loop hole, it is the only 
possible way to enable a single product to be interchangeable between both a

PTP and PTMP use, and not have the PTP use severally compromised when used 
in PTP.

It should be noted that in 5.8G a CPE is allowed to follow PTP rules because

it is being used in a PTP way, so a 30dbi antenna is certified for use on 
the CPE of a PtMP system.

That is my take on it.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Mike" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection


> Is that saying any antenna with less than 30dBi gain is within the
> rules?   Have they relaxed the rules on certification?  Just curious.
>
>
> At 12:04 PM 12/15/2009, Matt wrote:
>>According to Ubiquiti themselves and the FCC:
>>
>>This equipment is required to be professionally installed
>>
>>The device has been designed to operate with the antennas listed below
>>and having a maximum gain of 30dBi. Antennas not included in this list
>>or having a gain greater than 30dBi are strictly prohibited for use with
>>this device. The required antenna impedance is 50 ohms
>
> ... list deleted
>
>
>
>
>


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> -- 
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 
> 5/15/2009 6:16 AM
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Re: [WISPA] ip addresses

[Data Technology]

That's the way I figured it.

I currently have a /21 and they were saying I barely could justify a /22 
which was ok with me.
I have put my bridgeed wireless units on private ip's so I could make 
due for a while with a /22.

I just got another reply from my new provider.  Looks like they are 
planning on giving me a /21 + the 9th block of addresses.
Maybe I should not look a gift horse in the mouth!!

LaRoy

Matt Jenkins wrote:
> A /21 is 8 blocks of IP addresses. So if it starts at x.x.56.0 then it 
> would end at x.x.63.255
>
> - Matt
>
> Data Technology wrote:
>   
>> Correction to the starting ip.
>> x.x.56.0
>> Guess I can't type.
>>
>> Data Technology wrote:
>> 
>>> Ok guys,
>>> I know I am not a networking genius, but I think something is wrong 
>>> with this range of ip addresses that my new provider is assigning me.
>>> I have been told the range of ip's will be x.x.53.0 ... x.x.64.255.
>>> I questioned them if if should not be x.x.53.0 ... x.x.63.255.  This 
>>> would give a /21, according to my fingers and my subnet calculator.
>>> They said "no, this is the range".
>>>
>>> SO, is there something I am missing, can this range be routed as one 
>>> subnet to me?  Am I the crazy one?
>>>
>>> LaRoy McCann
>>> Data Technology
>>>
>>>   
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>  
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>>
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>
>
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> -- 
>
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
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>
>   




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Re: [WISPA] Credit Card Processors

[Jeff Ehman]

Sorry for bringing up an old topic but I thought about it last night and it 
should be touched on.  We are all in extremely commoditized industries where 
margins are thin and streamlined operations are a key to success.  In these 
types of businesses, every little bit counts.  Finding a one size fits all 
solution that will take over a space doesn't happen overnight (if ever).  What 
makes a business truly stand out is doing a million little things better than 
the competition.  

So, $500.00 is not something that is going to make any of us rich, but if you 
can find $500 savings or improvements in places that your competition hasn't 
thought of, it really starts to add up.  

It is much harder to attack a million army ants than one huge elephant.

-Jeff Ehman
General Manager
Phone: (312) 205-2509
"There is a difference"


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 10:40 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Credit Card Processors

Wow you saved 500/mo?  That has to be like 25c per customer!  Glad you
get your money quicker though :)

On 12/12/09, Travis Johnson  wrote:
> IPPay. Only saved us $500 per month and we get our money in 1-2 business
> days (instead of 4-5 with authorize). :) :)
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Robert West wrote:
>> Looking at credit card processors again.  Been nickled and dimed to death
>> with 2 others.  Who are you happy with and do they work with
>> authorize.net?
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob-
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert West
>>
>> Just Micro Digital Services Inc.
>>
>> 740-335-7020
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
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>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
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>>
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>>
>
>
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-- 
Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
--- Albert Einstein



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Re: [WISPA] ip addresses

[Matt Jenkins]

A /21 is 8 blocks of IP addresses. So if it starts at x.x.56.0 then it 
would end at x.x.63.255

- Matt

Data Technology wrote:
> Correction to the starting ip.
> x.x.56.0
> Guess I can't type.
> 
> Data Technology wrote:
>> Ok guys,
>> I know I am not a networking genius, but I think something is wrong 
>> with this range of ip addresses that my new provider is assigning me.
>> I have been told the range of ip's will be x.x.53.0 ... x.x.64.255.
>> I questioned them if if should not be x.x.53.0 ... x.x.63.255.  This 
>> would give a /21, according to my fingers and my subnet calculator.
>> They said "no, this is the range".
>>
>> SO, is there something I am missing, can this range be routed as one 
>> subnet to me?  Am I the crazy one?
>>
>> LaRoy McCann
>> Data Technology
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [WISPA] ip addresses

[Data Technology]

Correction to the starting ip.
x.x.56.0
Guess I can't type.

Data Technology wrote:
> Ok guys,
> I know I am not a networking genius, but I think something is wrong 
> with this range of ip addresses that my new provider is assigning me.
> I have been told the range of ip's will be x.x.53.0 ... x.x.64.255.
> I questioned them if if should not be x.x.53.0 ... x.x.63.255.  This 
> would give a /21, according to my fingers and my subnet calculator.
> They said "no, this is the range".
>
> SO, is there something I am missing, can this range be routed as one 
> subnet to me?  Am I the crazy one?
>
> LaRoy McCann
> Data Technology
>




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[WISPA] ip addresses

[Data Technology]

Ok guys,
I know I am not a networking genius, but I think something is wrong with 
this range of ip addresses that my new provider is assigning me.
I have been told the range of ip's will be x.x.53.0 ... x.x.64.255.
I questioned them if if should not be x.x.53.0 ... x.x.63.255.  This 
would give a /21, according to my fingers and my subnet calculator.
They said "no, this is the range".

SO, is there something I am missing, can this range be routed as one 
subnet to me?  Am I the crazy one?

LaRoy McCann
Data Technology



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Re: [WISPA] Canopy CMM issue.

[Jon Auer]

The interface (HTTP/Telnet) doesn't lock up if you try accessing it
over a lower MTU link (VPN over DSL, for example).
You get port mirroring which is handy for diagnostics and CALEA.
Multiple SNMP accessing subnet and trap destination addresses.
That's what I can think of off the top of my head.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Jerry Richardson
 wrote:
> Huge imporvement in what way?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
> Behalf Of Jon Auer
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 12:41 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Canopy CMM issue.
>
> Not specifically but we have seen MTU problems and switch strangeness.
> Try the 3.X firmware. It is a huge improvement.
> -Jon
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Marco Coelho  wrote:
>> Has anyone seen any errata on Canopy CMM Micros that shows a remote
>> reboot type of vulnerability?
>> Firmware:
>>
>> CANOPY CMM 2.2 Build 2 Feb 23 2006 16:45:22
>>
>> Marco
>>
>> --
>> Marco C. Coelho
>> Argon Technologies Inc.
>> POB 875
>> Greenville, TX 75403-0875
>> 903-455-5036
>>
>>
>> 
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Re: [WISPA] Canopy CMM issue.

[Jerry Richardson]

Huge imporvement in what way?

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Jon Auer
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 12:41 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Canopy CMM issue.

Not specifically but we have seen MTU problems and switch strangeness.
Try the 3.X firmware. It is a huge improvement.
-Jon

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Marco Coelho  wrote:
> Has anyone seen any errata on Canopy CMM Micros that shows a remote
> reboot type of vulnerability?
> Firmware:
>
> CANOPY CMM 2.2 Build 2 Feb 23 2006 16:45:22
>
> Marco
>
> --
> Marco C. Coelho
> Argon Technologies Inc.
> POB 875
> Greenville, TX 75403-0875
> 903-455-5036
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Canopy CMM issue.

[Jon Auer]

Not specifically but we have seen MTU problems and switch strangeness.
Try the 3.X firmware. It is a huge improvement.
-Jon

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Marco Coelho  wrote:
> Has anyone seen any errata on Canopy CMM Micros that shows a remote
> reboot type of vulnerability?
> Firmware:
>
> CANOPY CMM 2.2 Build 2 Feb 23 2006 16:45:22
>
> Marco
>
> --
> Marco C. Coelho
> Argon Technologies Inc.
> POB 875
> Greenville, TX 75403-0875
> 903-455-5036
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
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>
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>
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>



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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

[Matt Jenkins]

They are perfectly legal until you connect up that second CPE then they 
are operating in a PTMP fashion and you (the operator) are violating FCC 
rules.

Gino Villarini wrote:
> Yeap! how they are selling the units as APs with the sectors ...hmmm 
> 
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> 787.273.4143
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Matt Jenkins
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:05 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection
> 
> According to Ubiquiti themselves and the FCC:
> 
> This equipment is required to be professionally installed
> 
> The device has been designed to operate with the antennas listed below 
> and having a maximum gain of 30dBi. Antennas not included in this list 
> or having a gain greater than 30dBi are strictly prohibited for use with
> 
> this device. The required antenna impedance is 50 ohms
> 
> 2x2 Point-To-Point Use
> 
> Ubiquiti RD-5G-30
> 
> Ubiquiti RP-5G-24
> 
> Ubiquiti AMS-5G-20
> 
> 1x1 Point-To-Point Use
> 
> Ubiquiti AG-5G-30
> 
> 2x2 Point-To-MultiPoint Use
> 
> Ubiquiti O-5G-7
> 
> Operation is restricted to Point-To-Point use for antenass other than 
> the Ubiquiti O-5G-7 listed above.
> 
> 
> That means the only legal antenna is a 7db omni for PTMP use.
> 
> Scott Piehn wrote:
>> Looking for input on which antennas to use
>> Was mentioned briefly on one of the lists that using a 16-120 instead
> of a 19-120 would give better coverage, We have 7 or so 19-120's
> deployed and they just seem to be very "particular".  seems about 60
> degree wide, and 2 mile out sweet spot.  
>> Looking based on 
>> covering out to 5 miles max (think that is the current limit of NS5M)
>> tower is 200 - 250 on a hill.  could be up to 350' above people
>> or tower (antenna) is 100' above people
>> 360 degree around tower
>>
>>
>> Apologies if this is the wrong list, can't keep them straight with
> what is allowed on which.
>> -
>> Scott Piehn
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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> 
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[WISPA] Canopy CMM issue.

[Marco Coelho]

Has anyone seen any errata on Canopy CMM Micros that shows a remote
reboot type of vulnerability?
Firmware:

CANOPY CMM 2.2 Build 2 Feb 23 2006 16:45:22

Marco

-- 
Marco C. Coelho
Argon Technologies Inc.
POB 875
Greenville, TX 75403-0875
903-455-5036



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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

[Tom DeReggi]

> Have they relaxed the rules on certification?

No they have not.

Most likely Ubiquiti has done this to avoid having to put peak power limits 
on their radio hardware.
26db radio + 7 dbi omni = 33db, less than 36db allowable limit.

If they included larger sector antennas to be certified with the hardware, 
they might get asked to hardset reduce max power of the radios, to comply 
with FCC EIRP limits for that specific configuration.

However, if a professional installer uses a higher gain antenns, such as a 
20db sector, and manually sets the transmit power of the radio down to 16db, 
they are still within legal Part-15 EIRP rules.
We've been through this before... individually the parts are FCC certified 
under modular component rules (example a mpci card in a laptop) and that 
might be all thats necessary to allow the parts to be legally sold and 
distributed.  The same rules that would apply to StarOS, Mikrotik, or any 
OEM product apply in the same way to Ubiquiti.

Allthough it might be evading the issue through a loop hole, it is the only 
possible way to enable a single product to be interchangeable between both a 
PTP and PTMP use, and not have the PTP use severally compromised when used 
in PTP.

It should be noted that in 5.8G a CPE is allowed to follow PTP rules because 
it is being used in a PTP way, so a 30dbi antenna is certified for use on 
the CPE of a PtMP system.

That is my take on it.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Mike" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection


> Is that saying any antenna with less than 30dBi gain is within the
> rules?   Have they relaxed the rules on certification?  Just curious.
>
>
> At 12:04 PM 12/15/2009, Matt wrote:
>>According to Ubiquiti themselves and the FCC:
>>
>>This equipment is required to be professionally installed
>>
>>The device has been designed to operate with the antennas listed below
>>and having a maximum gain of 30dBi. Antennas not included in this list
>>or having a gain greater than 30dBi are strictly prohibited for use with
>>this device. The required antenna impedance is 50 ohms
>
> ... list deleted
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
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>
>
> -- 
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 
> 5/15/2009 6:16 AM
> 




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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[Brian Webster]

Mark,
 You really sound like a broken record with every topic you post.


I posted the article to force people to think outside the box in regards to
broadband and what we think of how it is used today and the fact that we
cannot necessarily conceive all the uses in the future. Keeping an open mind
as to unknown possibilities I guess :-)

Thank You,
Brian Webster


On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:50 PM, MDK  wrote:

> There's only one thing you REALLY need to know about it:
>
> The TVA was the source of much fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars.So
> was the REA.
>
> Creating monopolies has resulted in highly inefficient business models for
> electricity, and there's only space in this game for "big corporations".
> Just think "Enron".Government thought it could build a pretend free
> market so it could have the benefits of a free market, but still control
> the
> game.Enron (and other scandals ) was the result.You can't "fake" a
> free market.You can only build a set of rules for creative types to use
> to "game" the system. You know, kind of how our regulators and certain
> government sponsored entities created a massive debt bubble that still
> threatens our nation. EVERY effort to do this will result in either
> extremely inefficient business models...  Or massive fraud.
>
> We have paid a lot for this monopoly status, we're still paying for it, and
> it will continue to absorb our hard earned wealth at immoral rates until
> people stop thinking that "public" = righteous.
>
> There's always going to be excuses for those have an ideological belief in
> superiority of socialized services to advocate them with emotional appeals.
> There's just no reason for any person with an IQ above refrigerator
> temperature to fall for it.There is only one reason to advocate
> socialized services, and that's because there's political and partisan
> power
> to be derived from controlling essential services with political power.
> When the mob does it by intimidation, we call it criminal.   When Congress
> does it, a certain number of people swoon in awe of their righteousness,
> while the rest of us recoil in disgust.There is, however, no actual
> difference between Congress controlling access to our needs and the mob
> doing it.
>
>
> --
> From: "Brian Webster" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:42 AM
> To: "WISPA List" ; ;
> ; "WISPA Board Members List" 
> Subject: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's
>
> > I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared to
> > electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the early
> > 1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to
> > electricity
> > (and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:
> >
> > The Killer App of 1900 
> > by Glenn Fleishman , 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM
> >
> > It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
> > electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and
> > cities,
> > to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband availability
> > today.
> >
> > http://publicola.net/?p=20687
> >
> > Thank You,
> > Brian Webster
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
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>
>
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Re: [WISPA] Tower Question

[Marco Coelho]

Each antenna should within it's specifications list the wind load to
be expected from that antenna.  You just add them up per height.

I'm not sure that chart is accurate for wind / ice loading.  The last
I looked, I was in a 70mph / 0 ice zone.  That chart has me in a 40mph
/ .75 ice zone.  We get regular winds that exceed 40.  Most storms hit
50+, and I've seen 60+ more times than I like.

Marco



On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> http://www.wirelessestimator.com/t_content.cfm?pagename=Basic%20Wind%20Speeds%20Rev.%20G%20with%20ice
>
> According to that, I need to have my tower meet 40 mph and 3/4" of ice.
>
> http://www.wirelessestimator.com/t_content.cfm?pagename=Basic%20Wind%20Speeds%20Rev.%20G
>
> That map says I need 90 mph.
>
> Could someone explain the differences?
>
> I've seen some towers list round and panel sq. ft. maximums.  Can I just 
> figure out the ratio of the maximums to translate panels to round or vice 
> versa to determine my mixed use footprint?
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> 
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-- 
Marco C. Coelho
Argon Technologies Inc.
POB 875
Greenville, TX 75403-0875
903-455-5036



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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[David E. Smith]

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:30, MDK  wrote:

> Why is it we think that the same people who cannot clean up Hanford (they
> have yet to clean ONE SINGLE TANK OF WASTE in decades of effort!) despite
> decades of promises and countless billions in budget overruns,  cannot
> regulate the banks, who ran their own post office into the ground, who
> committed fraud against their OWN bank, who can't even run their own
> cafeteria worth a damn
>
>
Not everyone agrees with your pessimistic assessment of government.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

[Mike]

Is that saying any antenna with less than 30dBi gain is within the 
rules?   Have they relaxed the rules on certification?  Just curious.


At 12:04 PM 12/15/2009, Matt wrote:
>According to Ubiquiti themselves and the FCC:
>
>This equipment is required to be professionally installed
>
>The device has been designed to operate with the antennas listed below
>and having a maximum gain of 30dBi. Antennas not included in this list
>or having a gain greater than 30dBi are strictly prohibited for use with
>this device. The required antenna impedance is 50 ohms

... list deleted 





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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

[Gino Villarini]

Yeap! how they are selling the units as APs with the sectors ...hmmm 

Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
787.273.4143

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Jenkins
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

According to Ubiquiti themselves and the FCC:

This equipment is required to be professionally installed

The device has been designed to operate with the antennas listed below 
and having a maximum gain of 30dBi. Antennas not included in this list 
or having a gain greater than 30dBi are strictly prohibited for use with

this device. The required antenna impedance is 50 ohms

2x2 Point-To-Point Use

Ubiquiti RD-5G-30

Ubiquiti RP-5G-24

Ubiquiti AMS-5G-20

1x1 Point-To-Point Use

Ubiquiti AG-5G-30

2x2 Point-To-MultiPoint Use

Ubiquiti O-5G-7

Operation is restricted to Point-To-Point use for antenass other than 
the Ubiquiti O-5G-7 listed above.


That means the only legal antenna is a 7db omni for PTMP use.

Scott Piehn wrote:
> Looking for input on which antennas to use
> Was mentioned briefly on one of the lists that using a 16-120 instead
of a 19-120 would give better coverage, We have 7 or so 19-120's
deployed and they just seem to be very "particular".  seems about 60
degree wide, and 2 mile out sweet spot.  
> 
> Looking based on 
> covering out to 5 miles max (think that is the current limit of NS5M)
> tower is 200 - 250 on a hill.  could be up to 350' above people
> or tower (antenna) is 100' above people
> 360 degree around tower
> 
> 
> Apologies if this is the wrong list, can't keep them straight with
what is allowed on which.
> 
> -
> Scott Piehn
> 
> 
>


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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[MDK]

BTW, it WAS an interesting article.

My comment on it was that until the Seattle area governments manage to 
actually DO something... anything.   You know, accomplish at least ONE thing 
they're charged with... YOu know, like end crime, fill the potholes, educate 
the children, or any of the other 2000 things they don’t do worth a damn, 
perhaps adding yet another item for them to NOT accomplish but yet spend 
huge sums of money upon would be...  Uhhh...  Like...   Dumb?

Why is it we think that the same people who cannot clean up Hanford (they 
have yet to clean ONE SINGLE TANK OF WASTE in decades of effort!) despite 
decades of promises and countless billions in budget overruns,  cannot 
regulate the banks, who ran their own post office into the ground, who 
committed fraud against their OWN bank, who can't even run their own 
cafeteria worth a damn

Should run our economy, broadband, health care, and other essential 
services?

Someone... Anyone...   Somewhere...   CAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME

Cripes...  I've read a million arguments about the value of MT vs Canopy VS 
blah blah blah blah...   And each of the advocates of the respective 
services or products or people can demonstrate in real life that each can 
actually DO certain things.   But yet, nobody can demonstrate to me a single 
"service" provided by the swamp dwellers on the Potomac that so inspires me 
with awe I want them to do something else for me.

Each of us reading this does SOMETHING.   Presumably more than one 
something, and presumably well.   And, before you advocate to others the 
merits of what you've done or tried or seen or witnessed, you've been all 
over it and it's convinced you...   Someone please show me.

And Jack...  That's not trolling.   It's called HONESTY and INTEGRITY.

If someone came on this list and constantly trolled the virtues of some 
entirely crap product, this list would be all over it like white on rice... 
But for some reason, a certain number of us advocate for a huge industry 
change, choreographed by Congress.Before I buy into it...   PLEASE 
DEMONSTRATE HOW GREAT THEY ARE.

Some of us recall the advocacy of another well known list member who used to 
evangelize for Alvarion.This guy, however, WENT AND SAW AND DID.   When 
he said X, you could generally accept it as reasonably believable, if he was 
talking from experience.

So, I’m not trolling.   I’m just asking... dangit, people...   SHOW ME. 
I'm just not convinced by blind faith that Congress (or state legislatures 
or county or city governments) can, in spite of a track record of utter 
incompetence, suddenly transform our industry into something fantastic.   If 
you want to advocate for it, then SHOW US.Seems danged reasonable to me.





--
From: "Brian Webster" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:42 AM
To: "WISPA List" ; ; 
; "WISPA Board Members List" 
Subject: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

> I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared to
> electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the early
> 1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to 
> electricity
> (and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:
>
> The Killer App of 1900 
> by Glenn Fleishman , 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM
>
> It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
> electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and 
> cities,
> to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband availability
> today.
>
> http://publicola.net/?p=20687
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
 




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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

[Matt Jenkins]

According to Ubiquiti themselves and the FCC:

This equipment is required to be professionally installed

The device has been designed to operate with the antennas listed below 
and having a maximum gain of 30dBi. Antennas not included in this list 
or having a gain greater than 30dBi are strictly prohibited for use with 
this device. The required antenna impedance is 50 ohms

2x2 Point-To-Point Use

Ubiquiti RD-5G-30

Ubiquiti RP-5G-24

Ubiquiti AMS-5G-20

1x1 Point-To-Point Use

Ubiquiti AG-5G-30

2x2 Point-To-MultiPoint Use

Ubiquiti O-5G-7

Operation is restricted to Point-To-Point use for antenass other than 
the Ubiquiti O-5G-7 listed above.


That means the only legal antenna is a 7db omni for PTMP use.

Scott Piehn wrote:
> Looking for input on which antennas to use
> Was mentioned briefly on one of the lists that using a 16-120 instead of a 
> 19-120 would give better coverage, We have 7 or so 19-120's deployed and they 
> just seem to be very "particular".  seems about 60 degree wide, and 2 mile 
> out sweet spot.  
> 
> Looking based on 
> covering out to 5 miles max (think that is the current limit of NS5M)
> tower is 200 - 250 on a hill.  could be up to 350' above people
> or tower (antenna) is 100' above people
> 360 degree around tower
> 
> 
> Apologies if this is the wrong list, can't keep them straight with what is 
> allowed on which.
> 
> -
> Scott Piehn
> 
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[MDK]

There's only one thing you REALLY need to know about it:

The TVA was the source of much fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars.So 
was the REA.

Creating monopolies has resulted in highly inefficient business models for 
electricity, and there's only space in this game for "big corporations". 
Just think "Enron".Government thought it could build a pretend free 
market so it could have the benefits of a free market, but still control the 
game.Enron (and other scandals ) was the result.You can't "fake" a 
free market.You can only build a set of rules for creative types to use 
to "game" the system. You know, kind of how our regulators and certain 
government sponsored entities created a massive debt bubble that still 
threatens our nation. EVERY effort to do this will result in either 
extremely inefficient business models...  Or massive fraud.

We have paid a lot for this monopoly status, we're still paying for it, and 
it will continue to absorb our hard earned wealth at immoral rates until 
people stop thinking that "public" = righteous.

There's always going to be excuses for those have an ideological belief in 
superiority of socialized services to advocate them with emotional appeals. 
There's just no reason for any person with an IQ above refrigerator 
temperature to fall for it.There is only one reason to advocate 
socialized services, and that's because there's political and partisan power 
to be derived from controlling essential services with political power. 
When the mob does it by intimidation, we call it criminal.   When Congress 
does it, a certain number of people swoon in awe of their righteousness, 
while the rest of us recoil in disgust.There is, however, no actual 
difference between Congress controlling access to our needs and the mob 
doing it.


--
From: "Brian Webster" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:42 AM
To: "WISPA List" ; ; 
; "WISPA Board Members List" 
Subject: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

> I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared to
> electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the early
> 1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to 
> electricity
> (and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:
>
> The Killer App of 1900 
> by Glenn Fleishman , 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM
>
> It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
> electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and 
> cities,
> to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband availability
> today.
>
> http://publicola.net/?p=20687
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>
>
> 
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[WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[Brian Webster]

I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared to
electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the early
1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to electricity
(and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:

The Killer App of 1900 
by Glenn Fleishman , 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM

It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and cities,
to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband availability
today.

http://publicola.net/?p=20687

Thank You,
Brian Webster



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Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

[Robert West]

Walks on the edge of survival.  Most non-profits rely on outside funding.
An organization that is set up to serve the people and not make a profit is
usually a careful balance unless they have a perpetual endowment.



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of MDK
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:36 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

Walks on the edge of what?

For many decades, we paid HUGE per minute prices for long distance.And 
rather large sums just to have a phone, for that matter. The telcos 
innovated nothing.   They thought of "innovation" as some small thing every 
20 years.

Why?   You know the answer.   No free market.

Once finally got the door busted down, and competition entered...   Voice 
services, long distance or not, cost so little they are insignificant. 
And the range of services exploded.

Do you want the ISP business to do the same?

Just get Uncle Sam involved and it'll come to a screeching halt, all us 
small players will go away, and we'll have non evolutionary communications 
for a few decades.

Fortunately, it seems the cat is out of the bag, and we're too hard to stuff

back in, though the Congress and FCC so badly want to.

Medicare refused to pay for services and as a result, my mother died 20 
years too soon.
The VA medical system is unresponsive.   My father died of rather pointless 
issues in a VA hospital because the care just isn't... "there".
Social Security is a scam that makes Madoff look like Robin Hood.
Government created monopolies and we suffered for decades because of them...

still do.

I read somewhere in this thread that I or someone had claimed the free 
market will do everything.   NO, it will not.   But it will do the  best 
that can be done.   And government will do the worst.

And I'll stake my LIFE on that.



--
From: "Robert West" 
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 1:55 PM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

> But none of those would work unless they were setup as a not for profit.
> Any entity that is to serve the people AND generate profit walks on the
> edge.
>
> Bob-
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of MDK
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 4:37 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>
>
> And each of these is the evidence I have that I do NOT want them doing
> anything more, and I want them OUT of those things, as well.
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Tim Sylvester" 
> Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 5:27 PM
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>
>> Yes, I am amazed. Amazed by the bitching and whining about government on
>> this list by people who ...
>>
>> - sell wireless service using spectrum "owned" by everyone and allocated
>> to
>> them by the FCC for free or low cost.
>> - sell access to the Internet, a network originally funded and developed
>> by
>> DARPA and later funded by the National Science Foundation.
>> - drive on roads funded with taxpayer dollars and maintained by the
>> government.
>> - sell Internet service in rural areas to farmers that receive billions 
>> in
>> government subsidies per year.
>> - connect CPE equipment to electrical service that was funded by the 
>> Rural
>> Electric Administration.
>> - use VA health services.
>> - will use Medicare and Social Security when they retire.
>> - call the police and fire department when they need help.
>> - send their kids to public schools.
>>
>> Amazing.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

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