[WISPA] Firefox add-in

[Steve Barnes]

The company that supports us has a in-house Admin system that works really 
well. It is a home-grown admin system that gives us customer tracking and all.  
There are links on the customer record to ping the customer radio, a hyperlink 
to the radio IP so that it opens a new tab in windows and allows us to login to 
a Tranzeo or a UBNT radio. There is also a link to allow us to winbox or putty 
into that customers AP.  This all works great, in Microsoft Internet Explorer.  
It takes a .asp IE add-in to allow all the links to work.  We have not been 
able to find such a add-in for Firefox.  I am sorry I cannot give any more info 
than that as I am not a programmer and don't know how that all works.

Any suggestions?


Steve Barnes
RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service



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Re: [WISPA] Firefox add-in

[Scott Reed]

Actually what is used is a IE add-in (not and .asp) that allows IE to 
start an executable. It is used to allow a hyperlink to start Winbox and 
putty. 
We have searched for something that will work in FireFox, but I suspect 
Mozilla is security conscious enough that there is no way to make it 
happen. 
So, if someone can point us to a way to get FireFox to launch a .exe,  
Steve will no longer be tied to IE.

Steve Barnes wrote:
> The company that supports us has a in-house Admin system that works really 
> well. It is a home-grown admin system that gives us customer tracking and 
> all.  There are links on the customer record to ping the customer radio, a 
> hyperlink to the radio IP so that it opens a new tab in windows and allows us 
> to login to a Tranzeo or a UBNT radio. There is also a link to allow us to 
> winbox or putty into that customers AP.  This all works great, in Microsoft 
> Internet Explorer.  It takes a .asp IE add-in to allow all the links to work. 
>  We have not been able to find such a add-in for Firefox.  I am sorry I 
> cannot give any more info than that as I am not a programmer and don't know 
> how that all works.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
>
> Steve Barnes
> RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
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> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>   

-- 
Scott Reed
Sr. Systems Engineer
GAB Midwest
1-800-363-1544 x4000
Cell: 260-273-7239




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Re: [WISPA] Firefox add-in

[Nick Olsen]

Maybe IE Tab will work for you guys. Basically, It uses the IE engine 
inside of Firefox. Good for going to sites that don't work with Firefox. 
(like windows update)

Nick Olsen
Network Engineer / Customer Support
(321) 205-1100 x106



From: "Scott Reed" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 8:45 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Firefox add-in

Actually what is used is a IE add-in (not and .asp) that allows IE to 
start an executable. It is used to allow a hyperlink to start Winbox and 
putty. 
We have searched for something that will work in FireFox, but I suspect 
Mozilla is security conscious enough that there is no way to make it 
happen. 
So, if someone can point us to a way to get FireFox to launch a .exe,  
Steve will no longer be tied to IE.

Steve Barnes wrote:
> The company that supports us has a in-house Admin system that works 
really well. It is a home-grown admin system that gives us customer 
tracking and all.  There are links on the customer record to ping the 
customer radio, a hyperlink to the radio IP so that it opens a new tab in 
windows and allows us to login to a Tranzeo or a UBNT radio. There is also 
a link to allow us to winbox or putty into that customers AP.  This all 
works great, in Microsoft Internet Explorer.  It takes a .asp IE add-in to 
allow all the links to work.  We have not been able to find such a add-in 
for Firefox.  I am sorry I cannot give any more info than that as I am not 
a programmer and don't know how that all works.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
>
> Steve Barnes
> RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service
>
>
> 


> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 


>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
>
>   

-- 
Scott Reed
Sr. Systems Engineer
GAB Midwest
1-800-363-1544 x4000
Cell: 260-273-7239



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[WISPA] Short range link with DFS concerns

[Patrick Shoemaker]

I will be putting up a new 5.3 GHz link in the near future. The distance 
is only a few thousand feet. Normally I would use radios with integrated 
panel antennas, but this link is near a weather radar tower. Experience 
has shown that even when the radar's operating frequencies are blocked 
out of the radio's DFS channel map, the DFS algorithm can trip due to 
spurious emissions from the radar transmitter. I usually get around this 
by using high performance dishes with a narrow beam and small sidelobes.

Since this link is only a few thousand feet, 2 foot HP dishes seem like 
overkill. Also, aesthetics are a concern at one end of the link and a 
physically small antenna would be best.

Is anyone aware of a high quality (Radiowaves, Andrew, etc.) dual 
polarity high performance parabolic for 5.3 GHz that is smaller than 2 feet?


-- 
Patrick Shoemaker
Vector Data Systems LLC
shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com
office: (301) 358-1690 x36
http://www.vectordatasystems.com



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[WISPA] That black magic

[Mike]

I need to do a reality check with those of you familiar with knife edge
diffraction as a propagation medium.  First, I should paint the scene:

 

I have a corporate farmer almost 16 miles away who is motivated.  His
options are satellite, dialup he currently uses, or us.

 

A spectrum sweep of the property found absolutely no 2.4 signals.  By in
large, these rural areas are very quiet.

 

There are no trees or obstructions in the near field or out quite a ways.
However, there is a ridge almost half way between us.  I am embedding an
image of the path here created with alphimax.com path estimator.

 



 

 

I have a test unit which is a 19 dB panel/radio with an AP fastened to the
back.  It lets me hand hold a test unit and see what it sees on a laptop.
Standing on the ground on his property we got an ALMOST usable signal in a
short test.  He has a 35 foot TV tower next to the house on which we would
install.

 

Perhaps one would look at the path profile and common sense would dictate it
won't work.  However, I use knife edge diffraction successfully on a handful
of installs.  Besides, black magic sometimes trumps common sense.

 

I have never used this technique where the ridge is close to mid point.  On
all others the ridge was closer to the user.  All of them work except when
tropospheric ducting enters into the equation, with one exception.  I have
told the users this is a 98% link and it WILL go down during those events.
Earlier this winter we had a few days of ducting which caused a couple of
them to fade.  I saw a 15 dB fade on those.  Statistically, ducting should
only affect this area 20 some hours a year.

 

The single exception was when the obstructing hill had soy beans growing on
it.  That particular one went down in late fall when the beans were ready
for harvest.  The previous 2 years the field had corn planted on it and had
absolutely no issues.  I think dry beans affect the signal because they are
no longer "row" polarized and randomly scramble the signal beyond use.  Once
the beans were harvested, the signal came back like usual.

 

On this path in question, I found the ridge.  There are no trees, instead it
is farmed.  There is corn stubble on it right now.

 

I am curious what others have found in these NLOS situations.  Because the
obstruction is mid path, will the signal still be there next fall as it is
now?  Are mid path obstructions on a long path better than obstructions
closer to one end?  Am I absolutely stupid for even considering this
install?

 

I went over all the physics involved and told him of my experiences.  Like I
said, he is motivated.  I told him I wouldn't tie him into a contract, but
we'd go month by month and if we found later in the year it wasn't working,
we'd cut our losses.  He was OK with that.

 

Since I respect the viewpoints of many of you, bring it on!

 

 

Friendly Regards,

 

Mike

 

Mike Gilchrist

Disruptive Technologist

Advanced Wireless Express

P.O. Box 255

Toledo, IA   52342

Mike's
  Weekly Column

239.770.6203

m...@aweiowa.com

  

 

<>


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Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Josh Luthman]

To begin with, are you sure there is a bump there?  Could it be bad
meter resolution?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
continue that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill



On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Mike  wrote:
> I need to do a reality check with those of you familiar with knife edge
> diffraction as a propagation medium.  First, I should paint the scene:
>
>
>
> I have a corporate farmer almost 16 miles away who is motivated.  His
> options are satellite, dialup he currently uses, or us.
>
>
>
> A spectrum sweep of the property found absolutely no 2.4 signals.  By in
> large, these rural areas are very quiet.
>
>
>
> There are no trees or obstructions in the near field or out quite a ways.
> However, there is a ridge almost half way between us.  I am embedding an
> image of the path here created with alphimax.com path estimator.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have a test unit which is a 19 dB panel/radio with an AP fastened to the
> back.  It lets me hand hold a test unit and see what it sees on a laptop.
> Standing on the ground on his property we got an ALMOST usable signal in a
> short test.  He has a 35 foot TV tower next to the house on which we would
> install.
>
>
>
> Perhaps one would look at the path profile and common sense would dictate it
> won't work.  However, I use knife edge diffraction successfully on a handful
> of installs.  Besides, black magic sometimes trumps common sense.
>
>
>
> I have never used this technique where the ridge is close to mid point.  On
> all others the ridge was closer to the user.  All of them work except when
> tropospheric ducting enters into the equation, with one exception.  I have
> told the users this is a 98% link and it WILL go down during those events.
> Earlier this winter we had a few days of ducting which caused a couple of
> them to fade.  I saw a 15 dB fade on those.  Statistically, ducting should
> only affect this area 20 some hours a year.
>
>
>
> The single exception was when the obstructing hill had soy beans growing on
> it.  That particular one went down in late fall when the beans were ready
> for harvest.  The previous 2 years the field had corn planted on it and had
> absolutely no issues.  I think dry beans affect the signal because they are
> no longer "row" polarized and randomly scramble the signal beyond use.  Once
> the beans were harvested, the signal came back like usual.
>
>
>
> On this path in question, I found the ridge.  There are no trees, instead it
> is farmed.  There is corn stubble on it right now.
>
>
>
> I am curious what others have found in these NLOS situations.  Because the
> obstruction is mid path, will the signal still be there next fall as it is
> now?  Are mid path obstructions on a long path better than obstructions
> closer to one end?  Am I absolutely stupid for even considering this
> install?
>
>
>
> I went over all the physics involved and told him of my experiences.  Like I
> said, he is motivated.  I told him I wouldn't tie him into a contract, but
> we'd go month by month and if we found later in the year it wasn't working,
> we'd cut our losses.  He was OK with that.
>
>
>
> Since I respect the viewpoints of many of you, bring it on!
>
>
>
>
>
> Friendly Regards,
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Mike Gilchrist
>
> Disruptive Technologist
>
> Advanced Wireless Express
>
> P.O. Box 255
>
> Toledo, IA   52342
>
> Mike's
>  tml>  Weekly Column
>
> 239.770.6203
>
> m...@aweiowa.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



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[WISPA] Motorola telemarketing call

[Jeremie Chism]

I guess motorola is calling wisps about there new 3650 gear which the  
representative said will be available in the next few weeks.

Sent from my iPhone



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Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Mike]

I have a bright beacon I can turn on at the top of this tower.  On a clear
night recently, I turned it on.  Even a ways up a corn crib he could NOT see
the light.  I think the terrain data is accurate.  The alphimax site, once
you create the path lets you go into Google Earth and "see" the hill.  This
part of the world doesn't have high resolution imagery archived yet, but I
CAN see the ridge when I follow along the path.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:01 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic

To begin with, are you sure there is a bump there?  Could it be bad
meter resolution?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
continue that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill



On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Mike  wrote:
> I need to do a reality check with those of you familiar with knife edge
> diffraction as a propagation medium.  First, I should paint the scene:
>
>
>
> I have a corporate farmer almost 16 miles away who is motivated.  His
> options are satellite, dialup he currently uses, or us.
>
>
>
> A spectrum sweep of the property found absolutely no 2.4 signals.  By in
> large, these rural areas are very quiet.
>
>
>
> There are no trees or obstructions in the near field or out quite a ways.
> However, there is a ridge almost half way between us.  I am embedding an
> image of the path here created with alphimax.com path estimator.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have a test unit which is a 19 dB panel/radio with an AP fastened to the
> back.  It lets me hand hold a test unit and see what it sees on a laptop.
> Standing on the ground on his property we got an ALMOST usable signal in a
> short test.  He has a 35 foot TV tower next to the house on which we would
> install.
>
>
>
> Perhaps one would look at the path profile and common sense would dictate
it
> won't work.  However, I use knife edge diffraction successfully on a
handful
> of installs.  Besides, black magic sometimes trumps common sense.
>
>
>
> I have never used this technique where the ridge is close to mid point.
 On
> all others the ridge was closer to the user.  All of them work except when
> tropospheric ducting enters into the equation, with one exception.  I have
> told the users this is a 98% link and it WILL go down during those events.
> Earlier this winter we had a few days of ducting which caused a couple of
> them to fade.  I saw a 15 dB fade on those.  Statistically, ducting should
> only affect this area 20 some hours a year.
>
>
>
> The single exception was when the obstructing hill had soy beans growing
on
> it.  That particular one went down in late fall when the beans were ready
> for harvest.  The previous 2 years the field had corn planted on it and
had
> absolutely no issues.  I think dry beans affect the signal because they
are
> no longer "row" polarized and randomly scramble the signal beyond use.
 Once
> the beans were harvested, the signal came back like usual.
>
>
>
> On this path in question, I found the ridge.  There are no trees, instead
it
> is farmed.  There is corn stubble on it right now.
>
>
>
> I am curious what others have found in these NLOS situations.  Because the
> obstruction is mid path, will the signal still be there next fall as it is
> now?  Are mid path obstructions on a long path better than obstructions
> closer to one end?  Am I absolutely stupid for even considering this
> install?
>
>
>
> I went over all the physics involved and told him of my experiences.  Like
I
> said, he is motivated.  I told him I wouldn't tie him into a contract, but
> we'd go month by month and if we found later in the year it wasn't
working,
> we'd cut our losses.  He was OK with that.
>
>
>
> Since I respect the viewpoints of many of you, bring it on!
>
>
>
>
>
> Friendly Regards,
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Mike Gilchrist
>
> Disruptive Technologist
>
> Advanced Wireless Express
>
> P.O. Box 255
>
> Toledo, IA   52342
>
> Mike's
>
 tml>  Weekly Column
>
> 239.770.6203
>
> m...@aweiowa.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>


>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>




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Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Josh Luthman]

That profile suggests at 31 feet the customer should see the light
(the black LOS line).  Was that where they looked for the light, or
lower?  I would have to guess the corn crib was not nearly 31 feet.

I think the whole US has 3m and 10m data - http://www.cplus.org/rmw/dataen.html

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
continue that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill



On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Mike  wrote:
> I have a bright beacon I can turn on at the top of this tower.  On a clear
> night recently, I turned it on.  Even a ways up a corn crib he could NOT see
> the light.  I think the terrain data is accurate.  The alphimax site, once
> you create the path lets you go into Google Earth and "see" the hill.  This
> part of the world doesn't have high resolution imagery archived yet, but I
> CAN see the ridge when I follow along the path.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Josh Luthman
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:01 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic
>
> To begin with, are you sure there is a bump there?  Could it be bad
> meter resolution?
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
> continue that counts.”
> --- Winston Churchill
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Mike  wrote:
>> I need to do a reality check with those of you familiar with knife edge
>> diffraction as a propagation medium.  First, I should paint the scene:
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a corporate farmer almost 16 miles away who is motivated.  His
>> options are satellite, dialup he currently uses, or us.
>>
>>
>>
>> A spectrum sweep of the property found absolutely no 2.4 signals.  By in
>> large, these rural areas are very quiet.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are no trees or obstructions in the near field or out quite a ways.
>> However, there is a ridge almost half way between us.  I am embedding an
>> image of the path here created with alphimax.com path estimator.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a test unit which is a 19 dB panel/radio with an AP fastened to the
>> back.  It lets me hand hold a test unit and see what it sees on a laptop.
>> Standing on the ground on his property we got an ALMOST usable signal in a
>> short test.  He has a 35 foot TV tower next to the house on which we would
>> install.
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps one would look at the path profile and common sense would dictate
> it
>> won't work.  However, I use knife edge diffraction successfully on a
> handful
>> of installs.  Besides, black magic sometimes trumps common sense.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have never used this technique where the ridge is close to mid point.
>  On
>> all others the ridge was closer to the user.  All of them work except when
>> tropospheric ducting enters into the equation, with one exception.  I have
>> told the users this is a 98% link and it WILL go down during those events.
>> Earlier this winter we had a few days of ducting which caused a couple of
>> them to fade.  I saw a 15 dB fade on those.  Statistically, ducting should
>> only affect this area 20 some hours a year.
>>
>>
>>
>> The single exception was when the obstructing hill had soy beans growing
> on
>> it.  That particular one went down in late fall when the beans were ready
>> for harvest.  The previous 2 years the field had corn planted on it and
> had
>> absolutely no issues.  I think dry beans affect the signal because they
> are
>> no longer "row" polarized and randomly scramble the signal beyond use.
>  Once
>> the beans were harvested, the signal came back like usual.
>>
>>
>>
>> On this path in question, I found the ridge.  There are no trees, instead
> it
>> is farmed.  There is corn stubble on it right now.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am curious what others have found in these NLOS situations.  Because the
>> obstruction is mid path, will the signal still be there next fall as it is
>> now?  Are mid path obstructions on a long path better than obstructions
>> closer to one end?  Am I absolutely stupid for even considering this
>> install?
>>
>>
>>
>> I went over all the physics involved and told him of my experiences.  Like
> I
>> said, he is motivated.  I told him I wouldn't tie him into a contract, but
>> we'd go month by month and if we found later in the year it wasn't
> working,
>> we'd cut our losses.  He was OK with that.
>>
>>
>>
>> Since I respect the viewpoints of many of you, bring it on!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Friendly Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike Gilchrist
>>
>> Disruptive Technologist
>>
>> Advanced Wireless Express
>>
>> P.O. Box 255
>>
>> Toledo, IA   52342
>>
>> Mike's
>>
> > tml>  Weekly Column
>>
>> 239.770.6203
>>
>> m

Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Ryan Spott]

Well, before he invests in an install, have him rent a lift truck or
something to see what he can see.

I have a few links that have this type of knife edge defraction. I run them
using 802.11 gear (Mtik/Tranzeo). When I allowed full on access to all the
speed I could provide, complaints came from these clients. When I throttled
them down to256/768/1M connections.. the complaints stopped and things were
more normalized to these clients.

ryan

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 7:05 AM, Mike  wrote:

> I have a bright beacon I can turn on at the top of this tower.  On a clear
> night recently, I turned it on.  Even a ways up a corn crib he could NOT
> see
> the light.  I think the terrain data is accurate.  The alphimax site, once
> you create the path lets you go into Google Earth and "see" the hill.  This
> part of the world doesn't have high resolution imagery archived yet, but I
> CAN see the ridge when I follow along the path.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Josh Luthman
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:01 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic
>
> To begin with, are you sure there is a bump there?  Could it be bad
> meter resolution?
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
> continue that counts.”
> --- Winston Churchill
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Mike  wrote:
> > I need to do a reality check with those of you familiar with knife edge
> > diffraction as a propagation medium.  First, I should paint the scene:
> >
> >
> >
> > I have a corporate farmer almost 16 miles away who is motivated.  His
> > options are satellite, dialup he currently uses, or us.
> >
> >
> >
> > A spectrum sweep of the property found absolutely no 2.4 signals.  By in
> > large, these rural areas are very quiet.
> >
> >
> >
> > There are no trees or obstructions in the near field or out quite a ways.
> > However, there is a ridge almost half way between us.  I am embedding an
> > image of the path here created with alphimax.com path estimator.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I have a test unit which is a 19 dB panel/radio with an AP fastened to
> the
> > back.  It lets me hand hold a test unit and see what it sees on a laptop.
> > Standing on the ground on his property we got an ALMOST usable signal in
> a
> > short test.  He has a 35 foot TV tower next to the house on which we
> would
> > install.
> >
> >
> >
> > Perhaps one would look at the path profile and common sense would dictate
> it
> > won't work.  However, I use knife edge diffraction successfully on a
> handful
> > of installs.  Besides, black magic sometimes trumps common sense.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have never used this technique where the ridge is close to mid point.
>  On
> > all others the ridge was closer to the user.  All of them work except
> when
> > tropospheric ducting enters into the equation, with one exception.  I
> have
> > told the users this is a 98% link and it WILL go down during those
> events.
> > Earlier this winter we had a few days of ducting which caused a couple of
> > them to fade.  I saw a 15 dB fade on those.  Statistically, ducting
> should
> > only affect this area 20 some hours a year.
> >
> >
> >
> > The single exception was when the obstructing hill had soy beans growing
> on
> > it.  That particular one went down in late fall when the beans were ready
> > for harvest.  The previous 2 years the field had corn planted on it and
> had
> > absolutely no issues.  I think dry beans affect the signal because they
> are
> > no longer "row" polarized and randomly scramble the signal beyond use.
>  Once
> > the beans were harvested, the signal came back like usual.
> >
> >
> >
> > On this path in question, I found the ridge.  There are no trees, instead
> it
> > is farmed.  There is corn stubble on it right now.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am curious what others have found in these NLOS situations.  Because
> the
> > obstruction is mid path, will the signal still be there next fall as it
> is
> > now?  Are mid path obstructions on a long path better than obstructions
> > closer to one end?  Am I absolutely stupid for even considering this
> > install?
> >
> >
> >
> > I went over all the physics involved and told him of my experiences.
>  Like
> I
> > said, he is motivated.  I told him I wouldn't tie him into a contract,
> but
> > we'd go month by month and if we found later in the year it wasn't
> working,
> > we'd cut our losses.  He was OK with that.
> >
> >
> >
> > Since I respect the viewpoints of many of you, bring it on!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Friendly Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Gilchrist
> >
> > Disruptive Technologist
> >
> > Advanced Wireless Express
> >
> > P.O. Box 255
> >
> > Toledo, IA   52342
> >
> > Mike's
> >
> <
> http://www.tamatoledonews.com/page/cate

Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Mike]

The ladder on the outside of the corn crib is probably a little less than 20
feet.  I have seen the beacon close to 25 miles away.  It is a bright amber
rotating beacon. Yes at 31 foot, the LOS should be there, but more than half
of the Fresnel zone will be impeded.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:12 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic

That profile suggests at 31 feet the customer should see the light
(the black LOS line).  Was that where they looked for the light, or
lower?  I would have to guess the corn crib was not nearly 31 feet.

I think the whole US has 3m and 10m data -
http://www.cplus.org/rmw/dataen.html

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
continue that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill



On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Mike  wrote:
> I have a bright beacon I can turn on at the top of this tower.  On a clear
> night recently, I turned it on.  Even a ways up a corn crib he could NOT
see
> the light.  I think the terrain data is accurate.  The alphimax site, once
> you create the path lets you go into Google Earth and "see" the hill.
 This
> part of the world doesn't have high resolution imagery archived yet, but I
> CAN see the ridge when I follow along the path.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Josh Luthman
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:01 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic
>
> To begin with, are you sure there is a bump there?  Could it be bad
> meter resolution?
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
> continue that counts.”
> --- Winston Churchill
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Mike  wrote:
>> I need to do a reality check with those of you familiar with knife edge
>> diffraction as a propagation medium.  First, I should paint the scene:
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a corporate farmer almost 16 miles away who is motivated.  His
>> options are satellite, dialup he currently uses, or us.
>>
>>
>>
>> A spectrum sweep of the property found absolutely no 2.4 signals.  By in
>> large, these rural areas are very quiet.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are no trees or obstructions in the near field or out quite a ways.
>> However, there is a ridge almost half way between us.  I am embedding an
>> image of the path here created with alphimax.com path estimator.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a test unit which is a 19 dB panel/radio with an AP fastened to
the
>> back.  It lets me hand hold a test unit and see what it sees on a laptop.
>> Standing on the ground on his property we got an ALMOST usable signal in
a
>> short test.  He has a 35 foot TV tower next to the house on which we
would
>> install.
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps one would look at the path profile and common sense would dictate
> it
>> won't work.  However, I use knife edge diffraction successfully on a
> handful
>> of installs.  Besides, black magic sometimes trumps common sense.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have never used this technique where the ridge is close to mid point.
>  On
>> all others the ridge was closer to the user.  All of them work except
when
>> tropospheric ducting enters into the equation, with one exception.  I
have
>> told the users this is a 98% link and it WILL go down during those
events.
>> Earlier this winter we had a few days of ducting which caused a couple of
>> them to fade.  I saw a 15 dB fade on those.  Statistically, ducting
should
>> only affect this area 20 some hours a year.
>>
>>
>>
>> The single exception was when the obstructing hill had soy beans growing
> on
>> it.  That particular one went down in late fall when the beans were ready
>> for harvest.  The previous 2 years the field had corn planted on it and
> had
>> absolutely no issues.  I think dry beans affect the signal because they
> are
>> no longer "row" polarized and randomly scramble the signal beyond use.
>  Once
>> the beans were harvested, the signal came back like usual.
>>
>>
>>
>> On this path in question, I found the ridge.  There are no trees, instead
> it
>> is farmed.  There is corn stubble on it right now.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am curious what others have found in these NLOS situations.  Because
the
>> obstruction is mid path, will the signal still be there next fall as it
is
>> now?  Are mid path obstructions on a long path better than obstructions
>> closer to one end?  Am I absolutely stupid for even considering this
>> install?
>>
>>
>>
>> I went over all the physics involved and told him of my experiences.
 Like
> I
>> said, he is motivated.  I told him I wouldn't tie him into a contract,
but
>> we'd go month by month and if we 

Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[jp]

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 08:55:31AM -0600, Mike wrote:
> I need to do a reality check with those of you familiar with knife edge
> diffraction as a propagation medium.  First, I should paint the scene:
> 
> I have a corporate farmer almost 16 miles away who is motivated.  His
> options are satellite, dialup he currently uses, or us.
> 

Business reality for me is not to do it if tech support and tinkering 
costs more than it's worth, and that's a known possibility ahead of 
time.

I'd suggest an intermediate repeater location that will work for him 
(and others to make it worthwhile). If the guy is motivated, perhaps he 
can find a spot for you to put a pole or tower or work with a neighbor 
on your behalf.

-- 
/*
Jason Philbrook   |   Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL
KB1IOJ|   Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting 
 http://f64.nu/   |   for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/
*/



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Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Josh Luthman]

I see.  So at ~18 feet there is no light but at 31 you see the light,
suggesting that hill is actually there and as you said, Fresnel zone
is blocked.  You should expect the link to be troublesome.

I agree with Jason, too.  Just because you can does not mean you should.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
continue that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill



On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:19 AM, jp  wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 08:55:31AM -0600, Mike wrote:
>> I need to do a reality check with those of you familiar with knife edge
>> diffraction as a propagation medium.  First, I should paint the scene:
>>
>> I have a corporate farmer almost 16 miles away who is motivated.  His
>> options are satellite, dialup he currently uses, or us.
>>
>
> Business reality for me is not to do it if tech support and tinkering
> costs more than it's worth, and that's a known possibility ahead of
> time.
>
> I'd suggest an intermediate repeater location that will work for him
> (and others to make it worthwhile). If the guy is motivated, perhaps he
> can find a spot for you to put a pole or tower or work with a neighbor
> on your behalf.
>
> --
> /*
> Jason Philbrook   |   Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL
>    KB1IOJ        |   Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting
>  http://f64.nu/   |   for Midcoast Maine    http://www.midcoast.com/
> */
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



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Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Mike Hammett]

Wouldn't it cost more to rent a lift truck than do an install?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Ryan Spott" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:15 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic

> Well, before he invests in an install, have him rent a lift truck or
> something to see what he can see.
>
> I have a few links that have this type of knife edge defraction. I run 
> them
> using 802.11 gear (Mtik/Tranzeo). When I allowed full on access to all the
> speed I could provide, complaints came from these clients. When I 
> throttled
> them down to256/768/1M connections.. the complaints stopped and things 
> were
> more normalized to these clients.
>
> ryan
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 7:05 AM, Mike  wrote:
>
>> I have a bright beacon I can turn on at the top of this tower.  On a 
>> clear
>> night recently, I turned it on.  Even a ways up a corn crib he could NOT
>> see
>> the light.  I think the terrain data is accurate.  The alphimax site, 
>> once
>> you create the path lets you go into Google Earth and "see" the hill. 
>> This
>> part of the world doesn't have high resolution imagery archived yet, but 
>> I
>> CAN see the ridge when I follow along the path.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Josh Luthman
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:01 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic
>>
>> To begin with, are you sure there is a bump there?  Could it be bad
>> meter resolution?
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
>> continue that counts.”
>> --- Winston Churchill
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Mike  wrote:
>> > I need to do a reality check with those of you familiar with knife edge
>> > diffraction as a propagation medium.  First, I should paint the scene:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have a corporate farmer almost 16 miles away who is motivated.  His
>> > options are satellite, dialup he currently uses, or us.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A spectrum sweep of the property found absolutely no 2.4 signals.  By 
>> > in
>> > large, these rural areas are very quiet.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > There are no trees or obstructions in the near field or out quite a 
>> > ways.
>> > However, there is a ridge almost half way between us.  I am embedding 
>> > an
>> > image of the path here created with alphimax.com path estimator.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have a test unit which is a 19 dB panel/radio with an AP fastened to
>> the
>> > back.  It lets me hand hold a test unit and see what it sees on a 
>> > laptop.
>> > Standing on the ground on his property we got an ALMOST usable signal 
>> > in
>> a
>> > short test.  He has a 35 foot TV tower next to the house on which we
>> would
>> > install.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Perhaps one would look at the path profile and common sense would 
>> > dictate
>> it
>> > won't work.  However, I use knife edge diffraction successfully on a
>> handful
>> > of installs.  Besides, black magic sometimes trumps common sense.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have never used this technique where the ridge is close to mid point.
>>  On
>> > all others the ridge was closer to the user.  All of them work except
>> when
>> > tropospheric ducting enters into the equation, with one exception.  I
>> have
>> > told the users this is a 98% link and it WILL go down during those
>> events.
>> > Earlier this winter we had a few days of ducting which caused a couple 
>> > of
>> > them to fade.  I saw a 15 dB fade on those.  Statistically, ducting
>> should
>> > only affect this area 20 some hours a year.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The single exception was when the obstructing hill had soy beans 
>> > growing
>> on
>> > it.  That particular one went down in late fall when the beans were 
>> > ready
>> > for harvest.  The previous 2 years the field had corn planted on it and
>> had
>> > absolutely no issues.  I think dry beans affect the signal because they
>> are
>> > no longer "row" polarized and randomly scramble the signal beyond use.
>>  Once
>> > the beans were harvested, the signal came back like usual.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On this path in question, I found the ridge.  There are no trees, 
>> > instead
>> it
>> > is farmed.  There is corn stubble on it right now.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I am curious what others have found in these NLOS situations.  Because
>> the
>> > obstruction is mid path, will the signal still be there next fall as it
>> is
>> > now?  Are mid path obstructions on a long path better than obstructions
>> > closer to one end?  Am I absolutely stupid for even considering this
>> > install?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I went over all the physics involved and told him of my experiences.
>>  Like
>> I
>> > said

Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Mike Hammett]

We just tore ours down, but our corn crib was 30 - 40 feet tall.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Josh Luthman" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:11 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic

> That profile suggests at 31 feet the customer should see the light
> (the black LOS line).  Was that where they looked for the light, or
> lower?  I would have to guess the corn crib was not nearly 31 feet.
>
> I think the whole US has 3m and 10m data - 
> http://www.cplus.org/rmw/dataen.html
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
> continue that counts.”
> --- Winston Churchill
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Mike  wrote:
>> I have a bright beacon I can turn on at the top of this tower.  On a 
>> clear
>> night recently, I turned it on.  Even a ways up a corn crib he could NOT 
>> see
>> the light.  I think the terrain data is accurate.  The alphimax site, 
>> once
>> you create the path lets you go into Google Earth and "see" the hill. 
>> This
>> part of the world doesn't have high resolution imagery archived yet, but 
>> I
>> CAN see the ridge when I follow along the path.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Josh Luthman
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:01 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic
>>
>> To begin with, are you sure there is a bump there?  Could it be bad
>> meter resolution?
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
>> continue that counts.”
>> --- Winston Churchill
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Mike  wrote:
>>> I need to do a reality check with those of you familiar with knife edge
>>> diffraction as a propagation medium.  First, I should paint the scene:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a corporate farmer almost 16 miles away who is motivated.  His
>>> options are satellite, dialup he currently uses, or us.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A spectrum sweep of the property found absolutely no 2.4 signals.  By in
>>> large, these rural areas are very quiet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are no trees or obstructions in the near field or out quite a 
>>> ways.
>>> However, there is a ridge almost half way between us.  I am embedding an
>>> image of the path here created with alphimax.com path estimator.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a test unit which is a 19 dB panel/radio with an AP fastened to 
>>> the
>>> back.  It lets me hand hold a test unit and see what it sees on a 
>>> laptop.
>>> Standing on the ground on his property we got an ALMOST usable signal in 
>>> a
>>> short test.  He has a 35 foot TV tower next to the house on which we 
>>> would
>>> install.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps one would look at the path profile and common sense would 
>>> dictate
>> it
>>> won't work.  However, I use knife edge diffraction successfully on a
>> handful
>>> of installs.  Besides, black magic sometimes trumps common sense.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have never used this technique where the ridge is close to mid point.
>>  On
>>> all others the ridge was closer to the user.  All of them work except 
>>> when
>>> tropospheric ducting enters into the equation, with one exception.  I 
>>> have
>>> told the users this is a 98% link and it WILL go down during those 
>>> events.
>>> Earlier this winter we had a few days of ducting which caused a couple 
>>> of
>>> them to fade.  I saw a 15 dB fade on those.  Statistically, ducting 
>>> should
>>> only affect this area 20 some hours a year.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The single exception was when the obstructing hill had soy beans growing
>> on
>>> it.  That particular one went down in late fall when the beans were 
>>> ready
>>> for harvest.  The previous 2 years the field had corn planted on it and
>> had
>>> absolutely no issues.  I think dry beans affect the signal because they
>> are
>>> no longer "row" polarized and randomly scramble the signal beyond use.
>>  Once
>>> the beans were harvested, the signal came back like usual.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On this path in question, I found the ridge.  There are no trees, 
>>> instead
>> it
>>> is farmed.  There is corn stubble on it right now.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am curious what others have found in these NLOS situations.  Because 
>>> the
>>> obstruction is mid path, will the signal still be there next fall as it 
>>> is
>>> now?  Are mid path obstructions on a long path better than obstructions
>>> closer to one end?  Am I absolutely stupid for even considering this
>>> install?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I went over all the physics involved and told him of my experiences. 
>>> Like
>> I
>>> said, he is motivated.  I told h

Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Mike]

Short squat corn crib.  It has an internal ladder with no outside access,
and another ladder on the outside going part way up.

I have NOT verified the light is visible at 31 feet.  Maybe I should have
him climb it on a clear night to verify he can indeed see the light?

I know I would be using knife edge diffraction with OFDM modulation.  This
is a horizontally polarized sector operating on a fractional channel.

His part of the county, which is northeast of me lies on a Paleozoic
plateau; it is flat for miles.  Any neighboring properties would have the
same issues. My operations are centered in south county where we have what
are referred to as the Bohemian Alps.  My property is one of the highest
points in the county, and the tower is 180' above that.

Right now, my most distant customer is 11 miles and has no issues.  This one
is almost 16 miles.  The farthest path where I *KNOW* I'm using knife edge
diffraction is 6.8 miles and has absolutely no issues EXCEPT during those
ducting events.





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Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Mike]

Josh said >> I agree with Jason, too.  Just because you can does not mean
you should.

Columbus, or Neil Armstrong, or Edmund Hillary never said that!  :-)






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Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Steve Barnes]

This is one of those times that I would have to call this a non standard 
install and charge the client for the effort of getting him service.

I agree with others a 1/2 way repeater may be a help to other clients.
Next you have to remember that if not this then probably next year Corn will be 
back on the hill.  What happens when you add 12 more feet to that hill for 4 
months.  Is it worth the frustrated customer.  I have a statement that I have 
instilled in my installers. "I would rather have an unhappy customer for a week 
when I could not give them service than to have a unhappy customer for 1/2 a 
year when their service is bad and they gripe about it to all their neighbors". 

I have 5 customers that I will never make a dime off of due to them being so 
motivated and pushy that I worked my butt off getting them service.  Then more 
noise happened and I changed radios, Neighbor built a barn causing reflection 
so I moved the radio, lightening hit, another radio. After 10 trips out there, 
they are (currently) working, the dogs don't even bark when I pull in anymore.  
So $650 worth of radios + $800 worth labor > $199 install + $45 X 24months= 
$1080  means I loose.

Steve Barnes
RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:20 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic

We just tore ours down, but our corn crib was 30 - 40 feet tall.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Josh Luthman" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:11 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic

> That profile suggests at 31 feet the customer should see the light
> (the black LOS line).  Was that where they looked for the light, or
> lower?  I would have to guess the corn crib was not nearly 31 feet.
>
> I think the whole US has 3m and 10m data - 
> http://www.cplus.org/rmw/dataen.html
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
> continue that counts."
> --- Winston Churchill
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Mike  wrote:
>> I have a bright beacon I can turn on at the top of this tower.  On a 
>> clear
>> night recently, I turned it on.  Even a ways up a corn crib he could NOT 
>> see
>> the light.  I think the terrain data is accurate.  The alphimax site, 
>> once
>> you create the path lets you go into Google Earth and "see" the hill. 
>> This
>> part of the world doesn't have high resolution imagery archived yet, but 
>> I
>> CAN see the ridge when I follow along the path.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Josh Luthman
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:01 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic
>>
>> To begin with, are you sure there is a bump there?  Could it be bad
>> meter resolution?
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
>> continue that counts."
>> --- Winston Churchill
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Mike  wrote:
>>> I need to do a reality check with those of you familiar with knife edge
>>> diffraction as a propagation medium.  First, I should paint the scene:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a corporate farmer almost 16 miles away who is motivated.  His
>>> options are satellite, dialup he currently uses, or us.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A spectrum sweep of the property found absolutely no 2.4 signals.  By in
>>> large, these rural areas are very quiet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are no trees or obstructions in the near field or out quite a 
>>> ways.
>>> However, there is a ridge almost half way between us.  I am embedding an
>>> image of the path here created with alphimax.com path estimator.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a test unit which is a 19 dB panel/radio with an AP fastened to 
>>> the
>>> back.  It lets me hand hold a test unit and see what it sees on a 
>>> laptop.
>>> Standing on the ground on his property we got an ALMOST usable signal in 
>>> a
>>> short test.  He has a 35 foot TV tower next to the house on which we 
>>> would
>>> install.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps one would look at the path profile and common sense would 
>>> dictate
>> it
>>> won't work.  However, I use knife edge diffraction successfully on a
>> handful
>>> of installs.  Besides, black magic sometimes trumps common sense.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have never used this technique where the ridge is close to mid point.
>>  On
>>> all others the ridge was closer to the user.  All of them work except 
>>> when
>>> tropospheric ducting enters into the

Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Josh Luthman]

Columbus was a murderer.  Neil Armstrong was going to the moon.  Not
giving a farmer access to a global network to check weather, stocks
and naughty pictures.  Edmund Hillary is nuts.

I would definitely start by making sure you have LOS at 31 feet.
We've established you can not at ~18, but may at 31.  Maybe he's
looking in the wrong spot and doesn't know what he's looking for and
in reality, you can see the light at 18 feet.  I'd definitely get
these figures before proceeding.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
continue that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill



On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Mike  wrote:
> Josh said >> I agree with Jason, too.  Just because you can does not mean
> you should.
>
> Columbus, or Neil Armstrong, or Edmund Hillary never said that!  :-)
>
>
>
>
>
> 
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> http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] [WISPA Members] Form 477 Revisited: Not as bad as it looks

[Brian Webster]

That is good information to know and it's good to know the independent
WISP's did not cause the huge drop. What this does illustrate though is that
as reported, the WISP industry is still very small even when compared to
satellite which is almost double in size. Hopefully with the push to get
more WISP's to report and with the tools being made available that make the
task easier, the fixed wireless reported number of customers will exceed the
satellite providers. If the satellite industry got a special NOFA and
stimulus funding for CPE devices, and if WISP's show more customers than
they do, it would make a more compelling case to get the government to
recognize fixed wireless as an important contributor to the broadband
market. This could help make better arguments for our FCC filings and/or
spectrum requests.



Brian
  -Original Message-
  From: members-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:members-boun...@wispa.org]on
Behalf Of Stephen Coran
  Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 2:26 AM
  To: memb...@wispa.org
  Subject: [WISPA Members] Form 477 Revisited: Not as bad as it looks


  I talked today to the Clearwire lawyer who filed their Form 477 reports.
As I had thought might be true, in the 2H 2008 report for which the results
were recently released, Clearwire re-classified its subscribers as "mobile"
where before they had been listed as "fixed wireless."  It was explained to
me that the new form for 2H 2008 put "portable" uses in the "mobile"
category whereas before Clearwire had listed its subs as "fixed wireless."
The lawyer was unsure how many subs Clearwire claimed, but I am guessing it
explains a large portion of the "loss" of fixed wireless subs.

  Of course, this does not alleviate the challenges associated with
preparing and filing the Form 477s nor does it excuse non-compliance, but it
does explain the situation.

  Stephen E. Coran
  Rini Coran, PC
  1140 19th Street, NW, Suite 600
  Washington, D.C. 20036
  202.463.4310 - voice
  202.669.3288 - cell
  202.296.2014 - fax
  sco...@rinicoran.com - e-mail
  www.rinicoran.com
  www.telecommunicationslaw.com


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Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Chuck Profito]

If he is really motivated he will help with $$ for the repeater. Anybody
else who will benefit?  They might too.
Or raise your install cost to a few to cover the solar.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:47 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic

Columbus was a murderer.  Neil Armstrong was going to the moon.  Not
giving a farmer access to a global network to check weather, stocks
and naughty pictures.  Edmund Hillary is nuts.

I would definitely start by making sure you have LOS at 31 feet.
We've established you can not at ~18, but may at 31.  Maybe he's
looking in the wrong spot and doesn't know what he's looking for and
in reality, you can see the light at 18 feet.  I'd definitely get
these figures before proceeding.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
continue that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill



On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Mike  wrote:
> Josh said >> I agree with Jason, too.  Just because you can does not mean
> you should.
>
> Columbus, or Neil Armstrong, or Edmund Hillary never said that!  :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Mike Hammett]

I think Mike said that no one in miles would be able to get signal either, 
due to topography.  That said, it sounds like a hell of a market to break 
into, once he solves how to skirt the topographical problems (tower on the 
hill, taller tower, etc.).


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Chuck Profito" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:55 AM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic

> If he is really motivated he will help with $$ for the repeater. Anybody
> else who will benefit?  They might too.
> Or raise your install cost to a few to cover the solar.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Josh Luthman
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:47 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic
>
> Columbus was a murderer.  Neil Armstrong was going to the moon.  Not
> giving a farmer access to a global network to check weather, stocks
> and naughty pictures.  Edmund Hillary is nuts.
>
> I would definitely start by making sure you have LOS at 31 feet.
> We've established you can not at ~18, but may at 31.  Maybe he's
> looking in the wrong spot and doesn't know what he's looking for and
> in reality, you can see the light at 18 feet.  I'd definitely get
> these figures before proceeding.
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
> continue that counts."
> --- Winston Churchill
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Mike  wrote:
>> Josh said >> I agree with Jason, too.  Just because you can does not mean
>> you should.
>>
>> Columbus, or Neil Armstrong, or Edmund Hillary never said that!  :-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
> 
> 
>>
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[WISPA] new FCC report out

[Matt Liotta]

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-296442A1.pdf

* 35% percent of americans unserved

* "We need to tackle the challenge of connecting 93 million Americans to our 
broadband future," said FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski in a statement timed 
with the release of the survey. "In the 21st century, a digital divide is an 
opportunity divide."

* 29% stated they received service from a fixed wireless provider

** Notwithstanding the possible confusion reflected in the survey responses, it 
seems likely that the vast majority of home broadband access is wireline. In 
fact, estimates place wireless home broadband access at 2 percent of homes—that 
would include fixed wireless or satellite service.

-Matt




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Re: [WISPA] new FCC report out

[Patrick Leary]

29% from fixed wireless. Well, that sure reveals the disconnect between
the output data re form 477 filings, though I am much more inclined to
weight the end customer surveys than 477 filing numbers (which we all
know are way under reported).


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:38 AM
To: WISPA List General
Subject: [WISPA] new FCC report out

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-296442A1.pdf

* 35% percent of americans unserved

* "We need to tackle the challenge of connecting 93 million Americans to
our broadband future," said FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski in a
statement timed with the release of the survey. "In the 21st century, a
digital divide is an opportunity divide."

* 29% stated they received service from a fixed wireless provider

** Notwithstanding the possible confusion reflected in the survey
responses, it seems likely that the vast majority of home broadband
access is wireline. In fact, estimates place wireless home broadband
access at 2 percent of homes-that would include fixed wireless or
satellite service.

-Matt





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Re: [WISPA] new FCC report out

[Chuck Hogg]

You beat me to it.  LOL

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2360263,00.asp

Regards,
Chuck Hogg
Shelby Broadband
502-722-9292
ch...@shelbybb.com
http://www.shelbybb.com

On Feb 23, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Matt Liotta wrote:

> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-296442A1.pdf
> 
> * 35% percent of americans unserved
> 
> * "We need to tackle the challenge of connecting 93 million Americans to our 
> broadband future," said FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski in a statement timed 
> with the release of the survey. "In the 21st century, a digital divide is an 
> opportunity divide."
> 
> * 29% stated they received service from a fixed wireless provider
> 
> ** Notwithstanding the possible confusion reflected in the survey responses, 
> it seems likely that the vast majority of home broadband access is wireline. 
> In fact, estimates place wireless home broadband access at 2 percent of 
> homes—that would include fixed wireless or satellite service.
> 
> -Matt
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [WISPA] new FCC report out

[David E. Smith]

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 12:56, Patrick Leary  wrote:

> 29% from fixed wireless. Well, that sure reveals the disconnect between
> the output data re form 477 filings, though I am much more inclined to
> weight the end customer surveys than 477 filing numbers (which we all
> know are way under reported).


I find that number VERY dubious, because of things like this (from that
report, page 14):

It is likely that a significant number of consumers do not know the details
of their home Internet connections. Some, for instance, may confuse a
wireless home network working off wireline broadband with a “fixed wireless
provider.” Given the opportunity to pick more than one category, in
conjunction with uncertainty over how they connect to the internet at home,
some respondents inaccurately chose more than one category of connection
type.

For all we know, most of these folks think that since cousin Jed fixed 'em
up a wireless router, that's "fixed wireless."

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[David Hulsebus]

Mike, Interesting you mentioned soy beans. I have a customer 
(900-WaveRider) who was installed for 5 yrs next to a corn field. The 
crop was replaced with soy beans this past year and a month before 
harvest, as the beans dried out,  we started having signal fluctuation 
issues. We raised the antenna 10 ft and the problem went away. It was 
their first issue in 5 yrs.

Dave



Mike wrote:
> I need to do a reality check with those of you familiar with knife edge
> diffraction as a propagation medium.  First, I should paint the scene:
>
>  
>
> I have a corporate farmer almost 16 miles away who is motivated.  His
> options are satellite, dialup he currently uses, or us.
>
>  
>
> A spectrum sweep of the property found absolutely no 2.4 signals.  By in
> large, these rural areas are very quiet.
>
>  
>
> There are no trees or obstructions in the near field or out quite a ways.
> However, there is a ridge almost half way between us.  I am embedding an
> image of the path here created with alphimax.com path estimator.
>
>  
>
>
>
>  
>
>  
>
> I have a test unit which is a 19 dB panel/radio with an AP fastened to the
> back.  It lets me hand hold a test unit and see what it sees on a laptop.
> Standing on the ground on his property we got an ALMOST usable signal in a
> short test.  He has a 35 foot TV tower next to the house on which we would
> install.
>
>  
>
> Perhaps one would look at the path profile and common sense would dictate it
> won't work.  However, I use knife edge diffraction successfully on a handful
> of installs.  Besides, black magic sometimes trumps common sense.
>
>  
>
> I have never used this technique where the ridge is close to mid point.  On
> all others the ridge was closer to the user.  All of them work except when
> tropospheric ducting enters into the equation, with one exception.  I have
> told the users this is a 98% link and it WILL go down during those events.
> Earlier this winter we had a few days of ducting which caused a couple of
> them to fade.  I saw a 15 dB fade on those.  Statistically, ducting should
> only affect this area 20 some hours a year.
>
>  
>
> The single exception was when the obstructing hill had soy beans growing on
> it.  That particular one went down in late fall when the beans were ready
> for harvest.  The previous 2 years the field had corn planted on it and had
> absolutely no issues.  I think dry beans affect the signal because they are
> no longer "row" polarized and randomly scramble the signal beyond use.  Once
> the beans were harvested, the signal came back like usual.
>
>  
>
> On this path in question, I found the ridge.  There are no trees, instead it
> is farmed.  There is corn stubble on it right now.
>
>  
>
> I am curious what others have found in these NLOS situations.  Because the
> obstruction is mid path, will the signal still be there next fall as it is
> now?  Are mid path obstructions on a long path better than obstructions
> closer to one end?  Am I absolutely stupid for even considering this
> install?
>
>  
>
> I went over all the physics involved and told him of my experiences.  Like I
> said, he is motivated.  I told him I wouldn't tie him into a contract, but
> we'd go month by month and if we found later in the year it wasn't working,
> we'd cut our losses.  He was OK with that.
>
>  
>
> Since I respect the viewpoints of many of you, bring it on!
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Friendly Regards,
>
>  
>
> Mike
>
>  
>
> Mike Gilchrist
>
> Disruptive Technologist
>
> Advanced Wireless Express
>
> P.O. Box 255
>
> Toledo, IA   52342
>
> Mike's
>  tml>  Weekly Column
>
> 239.770.6203
>
> m...@aweiowa.com
>
>   
>
>  
>
>
>   
> 
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Motorola telemarketing call

[Eric Muehleisen]

It is currently in Beta. I would expect it to start shipping around the 
first part of April.

-Eric

On 2/23/2010 9:03 AM, Jeremie Chism wrote:
> I guess motorola is calling wisps about there new 3650 gear which the
> representative said will be available in the next few weeks.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] Motorola telemarketing call

[MDK]

Yeah, I got their @#$% spam call this morning, as well.   The caller was 
nice enough, but the questions, gads.   They wanted to know if I was 
"interested in WiMax".   My exact response was "Don't you think that's a 
vague question?".

Really, the call was a rather generic "cold calling for leads" type of 
thing.

Every freaking time I add or change a location, I get spammed nigh unto 
death by people all over 3.65 ghz.

I wonder if putting the following statement into this list will work.   I 
dunno but here goes

STOP CALLING, MAILING, OR SPAMMING ME!

There, wow.  I feel so...  so...  Expressed...   hehehehe, ok, so I don't, 
but never mind.

Back to life on earth.



--
From: "Eric Muehleisen" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 2:27 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Motorola telemarketing call

> It is currently in Beta. I would expect it to start shipping around the
> first part of April.
>
> -Eric
>
> On 2/23/2010 9:03 AM, Jeremie Chism wrote:
>> I guess motorola is calling wisps about there new 3650 gear which the
>> representative said will be available in the next few weeks.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Mike]

900 MHz doesn't work well around here.  The farmers have deployed GPS
navigation systems using those frequencies.

Was the bean path you had NLOS?  I'm curious what effects it had.  I have
seen a four foot change in elevation work like black magic.  I think the
beans get to blowing in the breeze and because there are hundreds of
thousands of little hard points that randomly diffract the signal it fades.
I saw this on a knife edge diffraction path as well as a distant, path where
the CPE had to be mounted low to clear large branches of an oak tree 20 feet
overhead.  The next field over was a bean field one year and caused fits for
a couple weeks, I believe because of the low angle.  Is it that OFDM can
survive in a multipath environment until the individually randomized signals
number in the thousands?

Mike

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of David Hulsebus
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:04 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic

Mike, Interesting you mentioned soy beans. I have a customer 
(900-WaveRider) who was installed for 5 yrs next to a corn field. The 
crop was replaced with soy beans this past year and a month before 
harvest, as the beans dried out,  we started having signal fluctuation 
issues. We raised the antenna 10 ft and the problem went away. It was 
their first issue in 5 yrs.

Dave



Mike wrote:
> I need to do a reality check with those of you familiar with knife edge
> diffraction as a propagation medium.  First, I should paint the scene:
>
>  
>
> I have a corporate farmer almost 16 miles away who is motivated.  His
> options are satellite, dialup he currently uses, or us.
>
>  
>
> A spectrum sweep of the property found absolutely no 2.4 signals.  By in
> large, these rural areas are very quiet.
>
>  
>
> There are no trees or obstructions in the near field or out quite a ways.
> However, there is a ridge almost half way between us.  I am embedding an
> image of the path here created with alphimax.com path estimator.
>
>  
>
>
>
>  
>
>  
>
> I have a test unit which is a 19 dB panel/radio with an AP fastened to the
> back.  It lets me hand hold a test unit and see what it sees on a laptop.
> Standing on the ground on his property we got an ALMOST usable signal in a
> short test.  He has a 35 foot TV tower next to the house on which we would
> install.
>
>  
>
> Perhaps one would look at the path profile and common sense would dictate
it
> won't work.  However, I use knife edge diffraction successfully on a
handful
> of installs.  Besides, black magic sometimes trumps common sense.
>
>  
>
> I have never used this technique where the ridge is close to mid point.
On
> all others the ridge was closer to the user.  All of them work except when
> tropospheric ducting enters into the equation, with one exception.  I have
> told the users this is a 98% link and it WILL go down during those events.
> Earlier this winter we had a few days of ducting which caused a couple of
> them to fade.  I saw a 15 dB fade on those.  Statistically, ducting should
> only affect this area 20 some hours a year.
>
>  
>
> The single exception was when the obstructing hill had soy beans growing
on
> it.  That particular one went down in late fall when the beans were ready
> for harvest.  The previous 2 years the field had corn planted on it and
had
> absolutely no issues.  I think dry beans affect the signal because they
are
> no longer "row" polarized and randomly scramble the signal beyond use.
Once
> the beans were harvested, the signal came back like usual.
>
>  
>
> On this path in question, I found the ridge.  There are no trees, instead
it
> is farmed.  There is corn stubble on it right now.
>
>  
>
> I am curious what others have found in these NLOS situations.  Because the
> obstruction is mid path, will the signal still be there next fall as it is
> now?  Are mid path obstructions on a long path better than obstructions
> closer to one end?  Am I absolutely stupid for even considering this
> install?
>
>  
>
> I went over all the physics involved and told him of my experiences.  Like
I
> said, he is motivated.  I told him I wouldn't tie him into a contract, but
> we'd go month by month and if we found later in the year it wasn't
working,
> we'd cut our losses.  He was OK with that.
>
>  
>
> Since I respect the viewpoints of many of you, bring it on!
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Friendly Regards,
>
>  
>
> Mike
>
>  
>
> Mike Gilchrist
>
> Disruptive Technologist
>
> Advanced Wireless Express
>
> P.O. Box 255
>
> Toledo, IA   52342
>
> Mike's
>
 tml>  Weekly Column
>
> 239.770.6203
>
> m...@aweiowa.com
>
>   
>
>  
>
>
>   
> 
>
>
>
>


> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wis

[WISPA] Route optimization and scheduling software

[Scott Vander Dussen]

Looking for software to efficiently schedule/route surveys, maintenance, 
installations, special projects etc. based upon proximity and urgency.  Most of 
what I've seen is geared for larger firms - thanks in advance.

`S



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Re: [WISPA] Route optimization and scheduling software

[Josh Luthman]

Travis' GPS thing sounds like what you want.  Haven't seen it but from
what I recall it's ideal for your request.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
continue that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill



On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Scott Vander Dussen
 wrote:
> Looking for software to efficiently schedule/route surveys, maintenance, 
> installations, special projects etc. based upon proximity and urgency.  Most 
> of what I've seen is geared for larger firms - thanks in advance.
>
> `S
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



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Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Scottie Arnett]

If he is adamant, I would do an analysis with something like radio mobile and 
keep adding height to his end to get the best result of the analysis. Then, 
depending on how high he needs to go, suggest buying a tower that is at that 
height. A single SU would not need more than rg25 with guides since you have 
already suggested over 20'.

IF he had to pay full price for Sat, he would be near the $500 range just for 
install and Equip. We all know it is junk! Last I checked here rg25 was around 
$100/sec. At that he could go at least 40 - 50 ft and maybe work?

Scottie 

-- Original Message --
From: "Mike" 
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:39:46 -0600

>Short squat corn crib.  It has an internal ladder with no outside access,
>and another ladder on the outside going part way up.
>
>I have NOT verified the light is visible at 31 feet.  Maybe I should have
>him climb it on a clear night to verify he can indeed see the light?
>
>I know I would be using knife edge diffraction with OFDM modulation.  This
>is a horizontally polarized sector operating on a fractional channel.
>
>His part of the county, which is northeast of me lies on a Paleozoic
>plateau; it is flat for miles.  Any neighboring properties would have the
>same issues. My operations are centered in south county where we have what
>are referred to as the Bohemian Alps.  My property is one of the highest
>points in the county, and the tower is 180' above that.
>
>Right now, my most distant customer is 11 miles and has no issues.  This one
>is almost 16 miles.  The farthest path where I *KNOW* I'm using knife edge
>diffraction is 6.8 miles and has absolutely no issues EXCEPT during those
>ducting events.
>
>
>
>
>
>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>---
>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
>

Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth.
Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information.



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Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Marlon K. Schafer]

First off, with a LEGAL base station AP running 36dB (I used 24db radio with 
12dB sector as an example) you should see a -73 at 16 miles.

Personally, to help avoid interference, I use 30dB or so ap power and run 
24dB grids at anything past 8 miles.  Things run pretty well this way.

Multipath is a really hard thing to figure out some times.  Had one today, 
high tension power lines about half way.  Good signals but 80 to 90% retrans 
rates.  I finally found a channel that worked well and got 3 megs both ways 
to the customer, but everything else I tried only gave me half a meg down 
and less up most of the time.

I gave the customer a 2 week trial before they have to pay for the install. 
We'll see if it keeps running or not.  I don't have high hopes.

I'll try moving the antenna up or down before I pull it out and see if I can 
find a better spot.

In the end, some just never do work right.

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike" 
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 6:55 AM
Subject: [WISPA] That black magic


>I need to do a reality check with those of you familiar with knife edge
> diffraction as a propagation medium.  First, I should paint the scene:
>
>
>
> I have a corporate farmer almost 16 miles away who is motivated.  His
> options are satellite, dialup he currently uses, or us.
>
>
>
> A spectrum sweep of the property found absolutely no 2.4 signals.  By in
> large, these rural areas are very quiet.
>
>
>
> There are no trees or obstructions in the near field or out quite a ways.
> However, there is a ridge almost half way between us.  I am embedding an
> image of the path here created with alphimax.com path estimator.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have a test unit which is a 19 dB panel/radio with an AP fastened to the
> back.  It lets me hand hold a test unit and see what it sees on a laptop.
> Standing on the ground on his property we got an ALMOST usable signal in a
> short test.  He has a 35 foot TV tower next to the house on which we would
> install.
>
>
>
> Perhaps one would look at the path profile and common sense would dictate 
> it
> won't work.  However, I use knife edge diffraction successfully on a 
> handful
> of installs.  Besides, black magic sometimes trumps common sense.
>
>
>
> I have never used this technique where the ridge is close to mid point. 
> On
> all others the ridge was closer to the user.  All of them work except when
> tropospheric ducting enters into the equation, with one exception.  I have
> told the users this is a 98% link and it WILL go down during those events.
> Earlier this winter we had a few days of ducting which caused a couple of
> them to fade.  I saw a 15 dB fade on those.  Statistically, ducting should
> only affect this area 20 some hours a year.
>
>
>
> The single exception was when the obstructing hill had soy beans growing 
> on
> it.  That particular one went down in late fall when the beans were ready
> for harvest.  The previous 2 years the field had corn planted on it and 
> had
> absolutely no issues.  I think dry beans affect the signal because they 
> are
> no longer "row" polarized and randomly scramble the signal beyond use. 
> Once
> the beans were harvested, the signal came back like usual.
>
>
>
> On this path in question, I found the ridge.  There are no trees, instead 
> it
> is farmed.  There is corn stubble on it right now.
>
>
>
> I am curious what others have found in these NLOS situations.  Because the
> obstruction is mid path, will the signal still be there next fall as it is
> now?  Are mid path obstructions on a long path better than obstructions
> closer to one end?  Am I absolutely stupid for even considering this
> install?
>
>
>
> I went over all the physics involved and told him of my experiences.  Like 
> I
> said, he is motivated.  I told him I wouldn't tie him into a contract, but
> we'd go month by month and if we found later in the year it wasn't 
> working,
> we'd cut our losses.  He was OK with that.
>
>
>
> Since I respect the viewpoints of many of you, bring it on!
>
>
>
>
>
> Friendly Regards,
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Mike Gilchrist
>
> Disruptive Technologist
>
> Advanced Wireless Express
>
> P.O. Box 255
>
> Toledo, IA   52342
>
> Mike's
>  tml>  Weekly Column
>
> 239.770.6203
>
> m...@aweiowa.com
>
>
>
>
>
>





>
>
> 
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> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
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[WISPA] Clear

[Mike Hammett]

In looking at Clear's web site, they have a green for areas that are covered 
now and a dark grey for future coverage.  Does anyone know how quickly they 
expect to fill that coverage?  How quickly they'll expand beyond their future 
coverage?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com




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Re: [WISPA] That black magic

[Marlon K. Schafer]

Good point.  We do a lot of those these days.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "jp" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] That black magic


> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 08:55:31AM -0600, Mike wrote:
>> I need to do a reality check with those of you familiar with knife edge
>> diffraction as a propagation medium.  First, I should paint the scene:
>>
>> I have a corporate farmer almost 16 miles away who is motivated.  His
>> options are satellite, dialup he currently uses, or us.
>>
>
> Business reality for me is not to do it if tech support and tinkering
> costs more than it's worth, and that's a known possibility ahead of
> time.
>
> I'd suggest an intermediate repeater location that will work for him
> (and others to make it worthwhile). If the guy is motivated, perhaps he
> can find a spot for you to put a pole or tower or work with a neighbor
> on your behalf.
>
> -- 
> /*
> Jason Philbrook   |   Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL
>KB1IOJ|   Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting
> http://f64.nu/   |   for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/
> */
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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Re: [WISPA] Clear

[Jayson Baker]

I haven't seen their site, but I know they've been sniffing around Colorado
Springs quite a bit the last year.  I think they're getting ready to make a
move.

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 9:19 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:

> In looking at Clear's web site, they have a green for areas that are
> covered now and a dark grey for future coverage.  Does anyone know how
> quickly they expect to fill that coverage?  How quickly they'll expand
> beyond their future coverage?
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
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>
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>
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>



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[WISPA] We now have an idea of how big the WISP industry is........

[Brian Webster]

I had a chance to update the National WISP Coverage map. It had been over a
year since the last version. Matt Larsen had sent me the latest zip code
list from the WISP Directory and I had a few other updates from various
WISP's that were added in this run. In this version I took the steps to
tabulate some demographic information. Zip Codes have a defined centroid
latitude and longitude. I mapped those points and selected all that fall
within the yellow areas on the national map. This includes AK, HI, PR and
the other territories. With those points known, the demographics were
tallied by zip code. It not the most precise method, but it's a good start.
I'd love to study down to the census block level but that can only be done
on a state by state basis due to the volume of data.

So here are the results:
  a.. 76,094,135 Housing Units passed
  b.. 188,613,240 Population Passed
  c.. $33,867.00 Median Income of the population passed
Not to shabby.

Thank You,
Brian Webster




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[WISPA] Lauderdale Lakes FL

[Greg]

Anyone service this area?

Thanks!
Greg



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