RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Yosemite and Aruba/band steering
Thanks Travis, we have just had a couple of reports start coming in of the same. Will check that out -- Jason Cook The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA 5005 Ph: +61 8 8313 4800 e-mail: jason.c...@adelaide.edu.aumailto:jason.c...@adelaide.edu.aumailto:jason.c...@adelaide.edu.au%3cmailto:jason.c...@adelaide.edu.au From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Travis Schick Sent: Friday, 24 October 2014 9:26 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Yosemite and Aruba/band steering Just to chime in... I started getting similar reports with Yosemite started looking into it... I had previously configured max-tx-fail 25 on my ssid profile. This was to try and force sticky clients from staying associated to the AP nearest the entry way.Not sure why - but appears Yosemite repeatedly hits this threshold when connecting to a network. I set this back to the default '0' [unlimited] and my yosemite macbook is connecting much more reliably. In particular I would wake up my macbook - or force a disconnect on the controller. The macbook would rejoin - auth - then drop after about 15 seconds - rejoin drop again... would repeat this a few times until stabilizing. Not sure if Yosemite is doing some form of stress analysis upon bssid - to dynamically guage when to try and roam vs using static rssi values / error counts etc... but its definitely doing something different This worked for my local testing with my macbook - I've pushed the change out - but don't have feedback yet. So if anyone else with Yosemite issues has max-tx-fail as a non zero value - if you change it back - let us know your results. Travis Schick UCDavis Network Operations Center On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Michael Dickson mdick...@nic.umass.edumailto:mdick...@nic.umass.edu wrote: Thanks all. I believe we determined that Yosemite did not reintroduce support for EAP-TTLS (PAP). We are are dealing with numerous complaints of dropped connections too-frequent reauths (in absence of roaming or disconnects). Mike Michael Dickson Network Analyst Information Technology University of Massachusetts Amherst 413.545.9639tel:413.545.9639 On Oct 17, 2014, at 2:55 PM, Turner, Ryan H rhtur...@email.unc.edumailto:rhtur...@email.unc.edu wrote: We don't have a ton of details yet... We've been fighting Apple disconnect issues for a while (unable to find a resolution), but we seem to be getting a lot of complaints about disconnects for Yosemite upgrades. From our logs, we see a lot of band steering going on for these clients, and a lot of roaming. Any other institutions getting similar complaints? Ryan H Turner Senior Network Engineer The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill CB 1150 Chapel Hill, NC 27599 +1 919 445 0113tel:%2B1%20919%20445%200113 Office +1 919 274 7926tel:%2B1%20919%20274%207926 Mobile ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Yosemite and Aruba/band steering
Just to chime in... I started getting similar reports with Yosemite started looking into it... I had previously configured max-tx-fail 25 on my ssid profile. This was to try and force sticky clients from staying associated to the AP nearest the entry way.Not sure why - but appears Yosemite repeatedly hits this threshold when connecting to a network. I set this back to the default '0' [unlimited] and my yosemite macbook is connecting much more reliably. In particular I would wake up my macbook - or force a disconnect on the controller. The macbook would rejoin - auth - then drop after about 15 seconds - rejoin drop again... would repeat this a few times until stabilizing.Not sure if Yosemite is doing some form of stress analysis upon bssid - to dynamically guage when to try and roam vs using static rssi values / error counts etc... but its definitely doing something different This worked for my local testing with my macbook - I've pushed the change out - but don't have feedback yet. So if anyone else with Yosemite issues has max-tx-fail as a non zero value - if you change it back - let us know your results. Travis Schick UCDavis Network Operations Center On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Michael Dickson mdick...@nic.umass.edu wrote: Thanks all. I believe we determined that Yosemite did not reintroduce support for EAP-TTLS (PAP). We are are dealing with numerous complaints of dropped connections too-frequent reauths (in absence of roaming or disconnects). Mike Michael Dickson Network Analyst Information Technology University of Massachusetts Amherst 413.545.9639 On Oct 17, 2014, at 2:55 PM, Turner, Ryan H rhtur...@email.unc.edu wrote: We don't have a ton of details yet... We've been fighting Apple disconnect issues for a while (unable to find a resolution), but we seem to be getting a lot of complaints about disconnects for Yosemite upgrades. From our logs, we see a lot of band steering going on for these clients, and a lot of roaming. Any other institutions getting similar complaints? Ryan H Turner Senior Network Engineer The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill CB 1150 Chapel Hill, NC 27599 +1 919 445 0113 Office +1 919 274 7926 Mobile ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Yosemite and Aruba/band steering
We don't have a ton of details yet... We've been fighting Apple disconnect issues for a while (unable to find a resolution), but we seem to be getting a lot of complaints about disconnects for Yosemite upgrades. From our logs, we see a lot of band steering going on for these clients, and a lot of roaming. Any other institutions getting similar complaints? Ryan H Turner Senior Network Engineer The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill CB 1150 Chapel Hill, NC 27599 +1 919 445 0113 Office +1 919 274 7926 Mobile ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Yosemite and Aruba/band steering
Thanks all. I believe we determined that Yosemite did not reintroduce support for EAP-TTLS (PAP). We are are dealing with numerous complaints of dropped connections too-frequent reauths (in absence of roaming or disconnects). Mike Michael Dickson Network Analyst Information Technology University of Massachusetts Amherst 413.545.9639 On Oct 17, 2014, at 2:55 PM, Turner, Ryan H rhtur...@email.unc.edu wrote: We don’t have a ton of details yet… We’ve been fighting Apple disconnect issues for a while (unable to find a resolution), but we seem to be getting a lot of complaints about disconnects for Yosemite upgrades. From our logs, we see a lot of band steering going on for these clients, and a lot of roaming. Any other institutions getting similar complaints? Ryan H Turner Senior Network Engineer The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill CB 1150 Chapel Hill, NC 27599 +1 919 445 0113 Office +1 919 274 7926 Mobile ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Apple clients, band steering- bizarre disruption
Has anyone else doing Cisco wireless ever run across an issue where en masse Apple clients only (iOS, OS X) struggle with band select to the point where they will join no network at all and self-assign the dreaded 169.254 ip address, across multiple controllers, while Windows and Android roll merrily along? -Lee Badman ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Apple clients, band steering- bizarre disruption
Yes we did but only with osx not ios devices and to correct that we had to allow Lower MCS on 802.11n (5GHz) Throughput. On Jan 24, 2013, at 8:05 PM, Lee H Badman lhbad...@syr.edu wrote: Has anyone else doing Cisco wireless ever run across an issue where en masse Apple clients only (iOS, OS X) struggle with band select to the point where they will join no network at all and self-assign the dreaded 169.254 ip address, across multiple controllers, while Windows and Android roll merrily along? -Lee Badman ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering?
After doing a little bit more testing for curiosity sake, I can confirm what you were seeing now on my network. We are running 5.0.0.1. I'll upgrade in a couple days and see if that also fixes the problem that I'm seeing. I'm still only seeing it where we have a mix of 2.4 only APs and AP 125's. Greg Williams IT Security Principal University of Colorado at Colorado Springs -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Ethan Sommer Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 12:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? FWIW: After upgrading to 5.0.2 from 5.0.0, things fall back to 2.4ghz much better than they used to. I think we still need to do some tweeking to get things working as well as we'd like. Unfortunately, we don't have the kind of budget to just throw out more APs to fix the problem, so that's not really an answer for us. I have to say, I've been really disappointed by Aruba tech support's answer to this sort of thing. 1. The documentation for 5.0.x says to turn on Local probe response but that doesn't seem to exist anymore in 5.0, but did in 3.x. 2. In two separate tech support tickets, with two separate tech support people, I was told that that was just the way the system worked, people couldn't fail back to 2.4ghz. That's A) false, and B) not even what the user manual says. 3. They clearly didn't know that there was (apparently) a bug in 5.0.0 that was fixed by 5.0.2 which allowed clients to fail back more. Ethan On 08/16/2010 06:36 AM, Osborne, Bruce W. (NS) wrote: Here is a response I received from Aruba Engineering: Bruce, I have heard this from some of my other customers as well. The basic issue comes down to the physical properties of the 5GHz wave vs. the 2.4GHz. The lower frequency (2.4) will be able to travel through air and walls and even bend around corners better than the higher frequency 5GHz wave. For this reason at the edge of an AP's coverage area the 2.4 signal will be better quality than the 5GHz. With band-steering enabled we will keep the client on the 5GHz radio despite a better performing 2.4 signal being available. I would prefer to keep band steering enabled and design the RF coverage based on the 5GHz coverage. You can add an AP 105 and set the b/g radio as a full time air monitor or you can consider a single radio AP (the AP-93) to provide 5GHz coverage only to these areas where the 2.4GHz can reach but the 5GHz does not. Thank you, Bruce Osborne Liberty University -Original Message- From: Ethan Sommer [mailto:somm...@gac.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 3:30 PM Subject: Band Steering? We are upgrading part of our network using Aruba AP-105s and a pair of 3600 controllers. We've found an annoying problem when we have band steering turned on. We've create two SSIDs. Lets call them BandSteering and NoBandSteering. When users are relatively close to an access point, they can connect to either. My MacBook will usually connect using 2.4 Ghz on NoBandSteering and will always connect using 5ghz to BandSteering. When a user is further away from the access point, however, they can connect fine to NoBandSteering (obviously it is slower than when they were closer) but can't connect at all to the BandSteering SSID. It doesn't fail back to 2.4ghz, and the clients don't recognize that they can't connect and connect to NoBandSteering if that's lower in their preferred networks list. The effect is that, understandably, users will select the NoBandSteering SSID because it is more reliable. (Even though it is slower in most cases.) Aruba suggested that I try setting the 5ghz ARM profile to always max out the 5ghz radio, which helps some but does not eliminate the areas where 2.4ghz works and 5ghz doesn't. So, my questions are: 1. Are people using band steering? 2. Have you found the same problem? 3. Is there a way to fix it? (Other than turning off bandsteering.) 4. I suppose a related question is, is there a way to make client computers prefer 5ghz more? I guess we'll probably just not use band steering if we can't find a solution, but it would be a shame not to better utilize the 5ghz spectrum better. Thanks for any suggestions! Ethan -- Ethan Sommer Associate Director of Core Services Gustavus Technology Services somm...@gustavus.edu 507-933-7042 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- Ethan Sommer Associate Director of Core Services Gustavus Technology Services somm...@gustavus.edu 507-933-7042 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group
RE: Band Steering?
Here is a response I received from Aruba Engineering: Bruce, I have heard this from some of my other customers as well. The basic issue comes down to the physical properties of the 5GHz wave vs. the 2.4GHz. The lower frequency (2.4) will be able to travel through air and walls and even bend around corners better than the higher frequency 5GHz wave. For this reason at the edge of an AP's coverage area the 2.4 signal will be better quality than the 5GHz. With band-steering enabled we will keep the client on the 5GHz radio despite a better performing 2.4 signal being available. I would prefer to keep band steering enabled and design the RF coverage based on the 5GHz coverage. You can add an AP 105 and set the b/g radio as a full time air monitor or you can consider a single radio AP (the AP-93) to provide 5GHz coverage only to these areas where the 2.4GHz can reach but the 5GHz does not. Thank you, Bruce Osborne Liberty University -Original Message- From: Ethan Sommer [mailto:somm...@gac.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 3:30 PM Subject: Band Steering? We are upgrading part of our network using Aruba AP-105s and a pair of 3600 controllers. We've found an annoying problem when we have band steering turned on. We've create two SSIDs. Lets call them BandSteering and NoBandSteering. When users are relatively close to an access point, they can connect to either. My MacBook will usually connect using 2.4 Ghz on NoBandSteering and will always connect using 5ghz to BandSteering. When a user is further away from the access point, however, they can connect fine to NoBandSteering (obviously it is slower than when they were closer) but can't connect at all to the BandSteering SSID. It doesn't fail back to 2.4ghz, and the clients don't recognize that they can't connect and connect to NoBandSteering if that's lower in their preferred networks list. The effect is that, understandably, users will select the NoBandSteering SSID because it is more reliable. (Even though it is slower in most cases.) Aruba suggested that I try setting the 5ghz ARM profile to always max out the 5ghz radio, which helps some but does not eliminate the areas where 2.4ghz works and 5ghz doesn't. So, my questions are: 1. Are people using band steering? 2. Have you found the same problem? 3. Is there a way to fix it? (Other than turning off bandsteering.) 4. I suppose a related question is, is there a way to make client computers prefer 5ghz more? I guess we'll probably just not use band steering if we can't find a solution, but it would be a shame not to better utilize the 5ghz spectrum better. Thanks for any suggestions! Ethan -- Ethan Sommer Associate Director of Core Services Gustavus Technology Services somm...@gustavus.edu 507-933-7042 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: Band Steering?
Here is an explanation from Aruba Engineering: Bruce, Both the 125 and the 105 have 2 spatial streams. The 2x2 vs 3x3 is the MIMO antenna configuration. #of transit antennas (Tx) by the # of receive (Rx) antennas. There is also a 3rd metric (the spatial stream) it is represented by 3x3x2 or 3x3:2. This would be the spec of the 125. The AP-105 is 2x2:2. Future WiFi technologies will be using 3 and 4 spatial streams but these are not written into the IEEE 802.11n standard today. We find in most environments there is minimal impact of 2x2:2 vs 3x3:2 as most clients only have 2x2 MIMO hardware. The 3x3 helps in high multipath (difficult RF) environments. Bruce Osborne Liberty University From: Ryan Holland [mailto:holland@osu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:14 PM Subject: Re: Band Steering? Just to add clarification, both the AP-120 series and AP-105s only support two (2) spatial streams, despite the additional antenna on the AP-120 series. FYI. == Ryan Holland Network Engineer, Wireless Office of the Chief Information Officer The Ohio State University 614-292-9906 holland@osu.edumailto:holland@osu.edu On Aug 11, 2010, at 4:01 PM, Greg Williams wrote: Ethan, sorry to not be of much help, but we've never had a problem with Band Steering. We have a pretty dense deployment so maybe that's why. But one thing you mentioned is you are using AP 105's. I can't remember 100% but I did see a degradation in signal using the 105's on 5ghz vs 2.4ghz vs. AP 125 when in a classroom, walled type environment. The AP 105's only have a 2X2 spatial stream not a 3X3. We are using the AP 105's in more open areas for that reason and 125's in the classroom type environments. Greg Williams IT Security Principal University of Colorado at Colorado Springs -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Ethan Sommer Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? We are upgrading part of our network using Aruba AP-105s and a pair of 3600 controllers. We've found an annoying problem when we have band steering turned on. We've create two SSIDs. Lets call them BandSteering and NoBandSteering. When users are relatively close to an access point, they can connect to either. My MacBook will usually connect using 2.4 Ghz on NoBandSteering and will always connect using 5ghz to BandSteering. When a user is further away from the access point, however, they can connect fine to NoBandSteering (obviously it is slower than when they were closer) but can't connect at all to the BandSteering SSID. It doesn't fail back to 2.4ghz, and the clients don't recognize that they can't connect and connect to NoBandSteering if that's lower in their preferred networks list. The effect is that, understandably, users will select the NoBandSteering SSID because it is more reliable. (Even though it is slower in most cases.) Aruba suggested that I try setting the 5ghz ARM profile to always max out the 5ghz radio, which helps some but does not eliminate the areas where 2.4ghz works and 5ghz doesn't. So, my questions are: 1. Are people using band steering? 2. Have you found the same problem? 3. Is there a way to fix it? (Other than turning off bandsteering.) 4. I suppose a related question is, is there a way to make client computers prefer 5ghz more? I guess we'll probably just not use band steering if we can't find a solution, but it would be a shame not to better utilize the 5ghz spectrum better. Thanks for any suggestions! Ethan -- Ethan Sommer Associate Director of Core Services Gustavus Technology Services somm...@gustavus.edumailto:somm...@gustavus.edu 507-933-7042 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS -- Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 1073089699) is spam: Spam:https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699m=6beced56b784c=s Not spam:https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699m=6beced56b784c=n Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699m=6beced56b784c=f -- END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering?
FWIW: After upgrading to 5.0.2 from 5.0.0, things fall back to 2.4ghz much better than they used to. I think we still need to do some tweeking to get things working as well as we'd like. Unfortunately, we don't have the kind of budget to just throw out more APs to fix the problem, so that's not really an answer for us. I have to say, I've been really disappointed by Aruba tech support's answer to this sort of thing. 1. The documentation for 5.0.x says to turn on Local probe response but that doesn't seem to exist anymore in 5.0, but did in 3.x. 2. In two separate tech support tickets, with two separate tech support people, I was told that that was just the way the system worked, people couldn't fail back to 2.4ghz. That's A) false, and B) not even what the user manual says. 3. They clearly didn't know that there was (apparently) a bug in 5.0.0 that was fixed by 5.0.2 which allowed clients to fail back more. Ethan On 08/16/2010 06:36 AM, Osborne, Bruce W. (NS) wrote: Here is a response I received from Aruba Engineering: Bruce, I have heard this from some of my other customers as well. The basic issue comes down to the physical properties of the 5GHz wave vs. the 2.4GHz. The lower frequency (2.4) will be able to travel through air and walls and even bend around corners better than the higher frequency 5GHz wave. For this reason at the edge of an AP's coverage area the 2.4 signal will be better quality than the 5GHz. With band-steering enabled we will keep the client on the 5GHz radio despite a better performing 2.4 signal being available. I would prefer to keep band steering enabled and design the RF coverage based on the 5GHz coverage. You can add an AP 105 and set the b/g radio as a full time air monitor or you can consider a single radio AP (the AP-93) to provide 5GHz coverage only to these areas where the 2.4GHz can reach but the 5GHz does not. Thank you, Bruce Osborne Liberty University -Original Message- From: Ethan Sommer [mailto:somm...@gac.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 3:30 PM Subject: Band Steering? We are upgrading part of our network using Aruba AP-105s and a pair of 3600 controllers. We've found an annoying problem when we have band steering turned on. We've create two SSIDs. Lets call them BandSteering and NoBandSteering. When users are relatively close to an access point, they can connect to either. My MacBook will usually connect using 2.4 Ghz on NoBandSteering and will always connect using 5ghz to BandSteering. When a user is further away from the access point, however, they can connect fine to NoBandSteering (obviously it is slower than when they were closer) but can't connect at all to the BandSteering SSID. It doesn't fail back to 2.4ghz, and the clients don't recognize that they can't connect and connect to NoBandSteering if that's lower in their preferred networks list. The effect is that, understandably, users will select the NoBandSteering SSID because it is more reliable. (Even though it is slower in most cases.) Aruba suggested that I try setting the 5ghz ARM profile to always max out the 5ghz radio, which helps some but does not eliminate the areas where 2.4ghz works and 5ghz doesn't. So, my questions are: 1. Are people using band steering? 2. Have you found the same problem? 3. Is there a way to fix it? (Other than turning off bandsteering.) 4. I suppose a related question is, is there a way to make client computers prefer 5ghz more? I guess we'll probably just not use band steering if we can't find a solution, but it would be a shame not to better utilize the 5ghz spectrum better. Thanks for any suggestions! Ethan -- Ethan Sommer Associate Director of Core Services Gustavus Technology Services somm...@gustavus.edu 507-933-7042 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- Ethan Sommer Associate Director of Core Services Gustavus Technology Services somm...@gustavus.edu 507-933-7042 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering?
I'd like to suggest that band-steering isn't causing this problem, it's just making it more apparent. Presumably, we all want 802.11n clients on 5GHz because performance and capacity are greater in that band. The use of band-steering suggests agreement on this point. In that case, it seems fair to say the root cause of the problem is having coverage gaps in the preferred band. In my experience with dual-radio networks, in locations where the 5GHz signal is unusable the 2.4GHz SNR will probably be 8dBm or less and SIR is likely to be even worse. In other words, where's there's no 5GHz there will only be poor 2.4GHz. If 5GHz is where we want to play on 802.11n, then that's the band for which we should be designing our coverage. If Aruba were to adjust their implementation, (and from the discussion it seems like they should) you would likely get fewer complaints of no connection, but you'll have even more clients with a poor connection. It may be better, but it's not exactly fixed. In the long run, filling in the 5GHz coverage gaps seems like the only real solution. Now that I've alienated you, let me make a feeble attempt to be helpful. I'm going to spell out my thinking because I don't know the answer. Instead, I'll suggest what may be a different way of looking at the problem. It seems like any good band-steering implementation should know what clients are 5GHz enabled and when they are within range of a 5GHz radio. Assuming Aruba collects that info, it would be stored in a table somewhere and updated at some interval. The problem could be caused by the controller taking too long to learn that the client is out of 5GHz range. Shortening the refresh interval could improve the situation. Unfortunately, I don't know which interval to shorten, or if the necessary interval can be shortened enough to stop this problem without causing a different problem, such as choking the bandwidth or overburdening the processor. I don't have much experience with the Aruba Controllers, but you might investigate the AM Poll Interval or the ARM Scan Interval. Maybe you can think of others. It's probably not realistic to reduce the scan interval much below 10 seconds, but depending on the network conditions it may be reasonable to reduce the AM Poll Interval way below the 1 minute default. Of course, even if you find the right variable and can reduce it sufficiently, you won't be rid of the problem. The best you can hope for is that it will be brief enough that few clients will notice. Chuck Enfield Sr. Communications Engineer Telecommunications Network Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 fx: 814.865-3988 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Ethan Sommer Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? FWIW: After upgrading to 5.0.2 from 5.0.0, things fall back to 2.4ghz much better than they used to. I think we still need to do some tweeking to get things working as well as we'd like. Unfortunately, we don't have the kind of budget to just throw out more APs to fix the problem, so that's not really an answer for us. I have to say, I've been really disappointed by Aruba tech support's answer to this sort of thing. 1. The documentation for 5.0.x says to turn on Local probe response but that doesn't seem to exist anymore in 5.0, but did in 3.x. 2. In two separate tech support tickets, with two separate tech support people, I was told that that was just the way the system worked, people couldn't fail back to 2.4ghz. That's A) false, and B) not even what the user manual says. 3. They clearly didn't know that there was (apparently) a bug in 5.0.0 that was fixed by 5.0.2 which allowed clients to fail back more. Ethan On 08/16/2010 06:36 AM, Osborne, Bruce W. (NS) wrote: Here is a response I received from Aruba Engineering: Bruce, I have heard this from some of my other customers as well. The basic issue comes down to the physical properties of the 5GHz wave vs. the 2.4GHz. The lower frequency (2.4) will be able to travel through air and walls and even bend around corners better than the higher frequency 5GHz wave. For this reason at the edge of an AP's coverage area the 2.4 signal will be better quality than the 5GHz. With band-steering enabled we will keep the client on the 5GHz radio despite a better performing 2.4 signal being available. I would prefer to keep band steering enabled and design the RF coverage based on the 5GHz coverage. You can add an AP 105 and set the b/g radio as a full time air monitor or you can consider a single radio AP (the AP-93) to provide 5GHz coverage only to these areas where the 2.4GHz can reach but the 5GHz does not. Thank you, Bruce Osborne Liberty University -Original Message- From: Ethan Sommer [mailto:somm
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering?
In some buildings- particularly precast concrete apartments- on our campus, the loss on 5 GHz signal can be pronounced versus 2.4. Like to the point where 5 is non-existent and 2.4 will support almost full data rate. But this effect varies wildly across our other building types. Here is one of my favorite studies on 2.4 GHz versus 5 GHz losses through various building materials: http://www.am1.us/Papers/E10589%20Propagation%20Losses%202%20and%205GHz.pdf It is interesting to note that as thoroughly done as it is, the authors still stress the wide variability of performance as different materials are combined in different settings. -Lee Badman From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Chuck Enfield [chu...@psu.edu] Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 6:18 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? I'd like to suggest that band-steering isn't causing this problem, it's just making it more apparent. Presumably, we all want 802.11n clients on 5GHz because performance and capacity are greater in that band. The use of band-steering suggests agreement on this point. In that case, it seems fair to say the root cause of the problem is having coverage gaps in the preferred band. In my experience with dual-radio networks, in locations where the 5GHz signal is unusable the 2.4GHz SNR will probably be 8dBm or less and SIR is likely to be even worse. In other words, where's there's no 5GHz there will only be poor 2.4GHz. If 5GHz is where we want to play on 802.11n, then that's the band for which we should be designing our coverage. If Aruba were to adjust their implementation, (and from the discussion it seems like they should) you would likely get fewer complaints of no connection, but you'll have even more clients with a poor connection. It may be better, but it's not exactly fixed. In the long run, filling in the 5GHz coverage gaps seems like the only real solution. Now that I've alienated you, let me make a feeble attempt to be helpful. I'm going to spell out my thinking because I don't know the answer. Instead, I'll suggest what may be a different way of looking at the problem. It seems like any good band-steering implementation should know what clients are 5GHz enabled and when they are within range of a 5GHz radio. Assuming Aruba collects that info, it would be stored in a table somewhere and updated at some interval. The problem could be caused by the controller taking too long to learn that the client is out of 5GHz range. Shortening the refresh interval could improve the situation. Unfortunately, I don't know which interval to shorten, or if the necessary interval can be shortened enough to stop this problem without causing a different problem, such as choking the bandwidth or overburdening the processor. I don't have much experience with the Aruba Controllers, but you might investigate the AM Poll Interval or the ARM Scan Interval. Maybe you can think of others. It's probably not realistic to reduce the scan interval much below 10 seconds, but depending on the network conditions it may be reasonable to reduce the AM Poll Interval way below the 1 minute default. Of course, even if you find the right variable and can reduce it sufficiently, you won't be rid of the problem. The best you can hope for is that it will be brief enough that few clients will notice. Chuck Enfield Sr. Communications Engineer Telecommunications Network Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 fx: 814.865-3988 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Ethan Sommer Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? FWIW: After upgrading to 5.0.2 from 5.0.0, things fall back to 2.4ghz much better than they used to. I think we still need to do some tweeking to get things working as well as we'd like. Unfortunately, we don't have the kind of budget to just throw out more APs to fix the problem, so that's not really an answer for us. I have to say, I've been really disappointed by Aruba tech support's answer to this sort of thing. 1. The documentation for 5.0.x says to turn on Local probe response but that doesn't seem to exist anymore in 5.0, but did in 3.x. 2. In two separate tech support tickets, with two separate tech support people, I was told that that was just the way the system worked, people couldn't fail back to 2.4ghz. That's A) false, and B) not even what the user manual says. 3. They clearly didn't know that there was (apparently) a bug in 5.0.0 that was fixed by 5.0.2 which allowed clients to fail back more. Ethan On 08/16/2010 06:36 AM, Osborne, Bruce W. (NS) wrote: Here is a response I received from Aruba Engineering
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering?
Ethan, sorry to not be of much help, but we've never had a problem with Band Steering. We have a pretty dense deployment so maybe that's why. But one thing you mentioned is you are using AP 105's. I can't remember 100% but I did see a degradation in signal using the 105's on 5ghz vs 2.4ghz vs. AP 125 when in a classroom, walled type environment. The AP 105's only have a 2X2 spatial stream not a 3X3. We are using the AP 105's in more open areas for that reason and 125's in the classroom type environments. Greg Williams IT Security Principal University of Colorado at Colorado Springs -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Ethan Sommer Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? We are upgrading part of our network using Aruba AP-105s and a pair of 3600 controllers. We've found an annoying problem when we have band steering turned on. We've create two SSIDs. Lets call them BandSteering and NoBandSteering. When users are relatively close to an access point, they can connect to either. My MacBook will usually connect using 2.4 Ghz on NoBandSteering and will always connect using 5ghz to BandSteering. When a user is further away from the access point, however, they can connect fine to NoBandSteering (obviously it is slower than when they were closer) but can't connect at all to the BandSteering SSID. It doesn't fail back to 2.4ghz, and the clients don't recognize that they can't connect and connect to NoBandSteering if that's lower in their preferred networks list. The effect is that, understandably, users will select the NoBandSteering SSID because it is more reliable. (Even though it is slower in most cases.) Aruba suggested that I try setting the 5ghz ARM profile to always max out the 5ghz radio, which helps some but does not eliminate the areas where 2.4ghz works and 5ghz doesn't. So, my questions are: 1. Are people using band steering? 2. Have you found the same problem? 3. Is there a way to fix it? (Other than turning off bandsteering.) 4. I suppose a related question is, is there a way to make client computers prefer 5ghz more? I guess we'll probably just not use band steering if we can't find a solution, but it would be a shame not to better utilize the 5ghz spectrum better. Thanks for any suggestions! Ethan -- Ethan Sommer Associate Director of Core Services Gustavus Technology Services somm...@gustavus.edu 507-933-7042 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering?
Just to add clarification, both the AP-120 series and AP-105s only support two (2) spatial streams, despite the additional antenna on the AP-120 series. FYI. == Ryan Holland Network Engineer, Wireless Office of the Chief Information Officer The Ohio State University 614-292-9906 holland@osu.edu On Aug 11, 2010, at 4:01 PM, Greg Williams wrote: Ethan, sorry to not be of much help, but we've never had a problem with Band Steering. We have a pretty dense deployment so maybe that's why. But one thing you mentioned is you are using AP 105's. I can't remember 100% but I did see a degradation in signal using the 105's on 5ghz vs 2.4ghz vs. AP 125 when in a classroom, walled type environment. The AP 105's only have a 2X2 spatial stream not a 3X3. We are using the AP 105's in more open areas for that reason and 125's in the classroom type environments. Greg Williams IT Security Principal University of Colorado at Colorado Springs -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Ethan Sommer Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? We are upgrading part of our network using Aruba AP-105s and a pair of 3600 controllers. We've found an annoying problem when we have band steering turned on. We've create two SSIDs. Lets call them BandSteering and NoBandSteering. When users are relatively close to an access point, they can connect to either. My MacBook will usually connect using 2.4 Ghz on NoBandSteering and will always connect using 5ghz to BandSteering. When a user is further away from the access point, however, they can connect fine to NoBandSteering (obviously it is slower than when they were closer) but can't connect at all to the BandSteering SSID. It doesn't fail back to 2.4ghz, and the clients don't recognize that they can't connect and connect to NoBandSteering if that's lower in their preferred networks list. The effect is that, understandably, users will select the NoBandSteering SSID because it is more reliable. (Even though it is slower in most cases.) Aruba suggested that I try setting the 5ghz ARM profile to always max out the 5ghz radio, which helps some but does not eliminate the areas where 2.4ghz works and 5ghz doesn't. So, my questions are: 1. Are people using band steering? 2. Have you found the same problem? 3. Is there a way to fix it? (Other than turning off bandsteering.) 4. I suppose a related question is, is there a way to make client computers prefer 5ghz more? I guess we'll probably just not use band steering if we can't find a solution, but it would be a shame not to better utilize the 5ghz spectrum better. Thanks for any suggestions! Ethan -- Ethan Sommer Associate Director of Core Services Gustavus Technology Services somm...@gustavus.edu 507-933-7042 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS -- Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 1073089699) is spam: Spam:https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699m=6beced56b784c=s Not spam:https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699m=6beced56b784c=n Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699m=6beced56b784c=f -- END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering?
For the 120 - you sure? On their documentation they show 3X3. We don't have any 120's or 121's, just 60's 61's 105's, 124's and 125's, so I can't say from a testing perspective. From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Ryan Holland Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 2:14 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? Just to add clarification, both the AP-120 series and AP-105s only support two (2) spatial streams, despite the additional antenna on the AP-120 series. FYI. == Ryan Holland Network Engineer, Wireless Office of the Chief Information Officer The Ohio State University 614-292-9906 holland@osu.edu On Aug 11, 2010, at 4:01 PM, Greg Williams wrote: Ethan, sorry to not be of much help, but we've never had a problem with Band Steering. We have a pretty dense deployment so maybe that's why. But one thing you mentioned is you are using AP 105's. I can't remember 100% but I did see a degradation in signal using the 105's on 5ghz vs 2.4ghz vs. AP 125 when in a classroom, walled type environment. The AP 105's only have a 2X2 spatial stream not a 3X3. We are using the AP 105's in more open areas for that reason and 125's in the classroom type environments. Greg Williams IT Security Principal University of Colorado at Colorado Springs -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Ethan Sommer Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? We are upgrading part of our network using Aruba AP-105s and a pair of 3600 controllers. We've found an annoying problem when we have band steering turned on. We've create two SSIDs. Lets call them BandSteering and NoBandSteering. When users are relatively close to an access point, they can connect to either. My MacBook will usually connect using 2.4 Ghz on NoBandSteering and will always connect using 5ghz to BandSteering. When a user is further away from the access point, however, they can connect fine to NoBandSteering (obviously it is slower than when they were closer) but can't connect at all to the BandSteering SSID. It doesn't fail back to 2.4ghz, and the clients don't recognize that they can't connect and connect to NoBandSteering if that's lower in their preferred networks list. The effect is that, understandably, users will select the NoBandSteering SSID because it is more reliable. (Even though it is slower in most cases.) Aruba suggested that I try setting the 5ghz ARM profile to always max out the 5ghz radio, which helps some but does not eliminate the areas where 2.4ghz works and 5ghz doesn't. So, my questions are: 1. Are people using band steering? 2. Have you found the same problem? 3. Is there a way to fix it? (Other than turning off bandsteering.) 4. I suppose a related question is, is there a way to make client computers prefer 5ghz more? I guess we'll probably just not use band steering if we can't find a solution, but it would be a shame not to better utilize the 5ghz spectrum better. Thanks for any suggestions! Ethan -- Ethan Sommer Associate Director of Core Services Gustavus Technology Services somm...@gustavus.edu 507-933-7042 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS -- Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 1073089699) is spam: Spam:https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699 https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699m=6beced56b784c=s m=6beced56b784c=s Not spam:https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699 https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699m=6beced56b784c=n m=6beced56b784c=n Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699 https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699m=6beced56b784c=f m=6beced56b784c=f -- END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering?
The Aruba 120 series APs are 3x3 (3 TX x 3 RX radio chains), but they are software-limited to 2 spatial streams. The number of radio chains is not always proportional to the spatial stream capabilities. Marcus Burton Dir. Of Product Development CWNP For the 120 ? you sure? On their documentation they show 3X3. We don?t have any 120?s or 121?s, just 60?s 61?s 105?s, 124?s and 125?s, so I can?t say from a testing perspective. From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Ryan Holland Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 2:14 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? Just to add clarification, both the AP-120 series and AP-105s only support two (2) spatial streams, despite the additional antenna on the AP-120 series. FYI. == Ryan Holland Network Engineer, Wireless Office of the Chief Information Officer The Ohio State University 614-292-9906 holland@osu.edu On Aug 11, 2010, at 4:01 PM, Greg Williams wrote: Ethan, sorry to not be of much help, but we've never had a problem with Band Steering. We have a pretty dense deployment so maybe that's why. But one thing you mentioned is you are using AP 105's. I can't remember 100% but I did see a degradation in signal using the 105's on 5ghz vs 2.4ghz vs. AP 125 when in a classroom, walled type environment. The AP 105's only have a 2X2 spatial stream not a 3X3. We are using the AP 105's in more open areas for that reason and 125's in the classroom type environments. Greg Williams IT Security Principal University of Colorado at Colorado Springs -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Ethan Sommer Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? We are upgrading part of our network using Aruba AP-105s and a pair of 3600 controllers. We've found an annoying problem when we have band steering turned on. We've create two SSIDs. Lets call them BandSteering and NoBandSteering. When users are relatively close to an access point, they can connect to either. My MacBook will usually connect using 2.4 Ghz on NoBandSteering and will always connect using 5ghz to BandSteering. When a user is further away from the access point, however, they can connect fine to NoBandSteering (obviously it is slower than when they were closer) but can't connect at all to the BandSteering SSID. It doesn't fail back to 2.4ghz, and the clients don't recognize that they can't connect and connect to NoBandSteering if that's lower in their preferred networks list. The effect is that, understandably, users will select the NoBandSteering SSID because it is more reliable. (Even though it is slower in most cases.) Aruba suggested that I try setting the 5ghz ARM profile to always max out the 5ghz radio, which helps some but does not eliminate the areas where 2.4ghz works and 5ghz doesn't. So, my questions are: 1. Are people using band steering? 2. Have you found the same problem? 3. Is there a way to fix it? (Other than turning off bandsteering.) 4. I suppose a related question is, is there a way to make client computers prefer 5ghz more? I guess we'll probably just not use band steering if we can't find a solution, but it would be a shame not to better utilize the 5ghz spectrum better. Thanks for any suggestions! Ethan -- Ethan Sommer Associate Director of Core Services Gustavus Technology Services somm...@gustavus.edu 507-933-7042 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS -- Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 1073089699) is spam: Spam:https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699m=6beced56b784c=s Not spam:https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699m=6beced56b784c=n Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699m=6beced56b784c=f -- END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering?
That is my understanding as well. I believe if a vendor's AP has a third antenna, it can provide some diversity in that the two best of the three can be used at any given time for the two available spatial streams on receive. I have no idea though, how much of a real benefit that translates to in practice. Pete Morrissey From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Marcus Burton Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:32 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? The Aruba 120 series APs are 3x3 (3 TX x 3 RX radio chains), but they are software-limited to 2 spatial streams. The number of radio chains is not always proportional to the spatial stream capabilities. Marcus Burton Dir. Of Product Development CWNP For the 120 - you sure? On their documentation they show 3X3. We don't have any 120's or 121's, just 60's 61's 105's, 124's and 125's, so I can't say from a testing perspective. From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Ryan Holland Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 2:14 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? Just to add clarification, both the AP-120 series and AP-105s only support two (2) spatial streams, despite the additional antenna on the AP-120 series. FYI. == Ryan Holland Network Engineer, Wireless Office of the Chief Information Officer The Ohio State University 614-292-9906 holland@osu.edumailto:holland@osu.edu On Aug 11, 2010, at 4:01 PM, Greg Williams wrote: Ethan, sorry to not be of much help, but we've never had a problem with Band Steering. We have a pretty dense deployment so maybe that's why. But one thing you mentioned is you are using AP 105's. I can't remember 100% but I did see a degradation in signal using the 105's on 5ghz vs 2.4ghz vs. AP 125 when in a classroom, walled type environment. The AP 105's only have a 2X2 spatial stream not a 3X3. We are using the AP 105's in more open areas for that reason and 125's in the classroom type environments. Greg Williams IT Security Principal University of Colorado at Colorado Springs -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Ethan Sommer Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? We are upgrading part of our network using Aruba AP-105s and a pair of 3600 controllers. We've found an annoying problem when we have band steering turned on. We've create two SSIDs. Lets call them BandSteering and NoBandSteering. When users are relatively close to an access point, they can connect to either. My MacBook will usually connect using 2.4 Ghz on NoBandSteering and will always connect using 5ghz to BandSteering. When a user is further away from the access point, however, they can connect fine to NoBandSteering (obviously it is slower than when they were closer) but can't connect at all to the BandSteering SSID. It doesn't fail back to 2.4ghz, and the clients don't recognize that they can't connect and connect to NoBandSteering if that's lower in their preferred networks list. The effect is that, understandably, users will select the NoBandSteering SSID because it is more reliable. (Even though it is slower in most cases.) Aruba suggested that I try setting the 5ghz ARM profile to always max out the 5ghz radio, which helps some but does not eliminate the areas where 2.4ghz works and 5ghz doesn't. So, my questions are: 1. Are people using band steering? 2. Have you found the same problem? 3. Is there a way to fix it? (Other than turning off bandsteering.) 4. I suppose a related question is, is there a way to make client computers prefer 5ghz more? I guess we'll probably just not use band steering if we can't find a solution, but it would be a shame not to better utilize the 5ghz spectrum better. Thanks for any suggestions! Ethan -- Ethan Sommer Associate Director of Core Services Gustavus Technology Services somm...@gustavus.edumailto:somm...@gustavus.edu 507-933-7042 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS -- Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 1073089699) is spam: Spam:https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699m=6beced56b784c=s Not spam:https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699m=6beced56b784c=n Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1073089699m=6beced56b784c=f
Re: Band Steering?
Aruba uses Atheros radios, and they aren't software-limited, but rather hardware-limited. That means that their (and everyone else's) radios will have to be upgraded in order to support 3 spatial streams. The third radio can be used in various ways, e.g. for a 3rd receiver in MRC to make reception more robust and using algorithms such as Cyclic Shift Diversity (CSD) for transmit gain smoothing. There are others, but the net effect is modest on transmit, but decent on receive. Devin K. Akin Chief Wi-Fi Architect Aerohive Networks E: de...@aerohive.com That is my understanding as well. I believe if a vendor’s AP has a third antenna, it can provide some diversity in that the two best of the three can be used at any given time for the two available spatial streams on receive. I have no idea though, how much of a real benefit that translates to in practice. Pete Morrissey From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Marcus Burton Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:32 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? The Aruba 120 series APs are 3x3 (3 TX x 3 RX radio chains), but they are software-limited to 2 spatial streams. The number of radio chains is not always proportional to the spatial stream capabilities. Marcus Burton Dir. Of Product Development CWNP For the 120 – you sure? On their documentation they show 3X3. We don’t have any 120’s or 121’s, just 60’s 61’s 105’s, 124’s and 125’s, so I can’t say from a testing perspective. From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Ryan Holland Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 2:14 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? Just to add clarification, both the AP-120 series and AP-105s only support two (2) spatial streams, despite the additional antenna on the AP-120 series. FYI. == Ryan Holland Network Engineer, Wireless Office of the Chief Information Officer The Ohio State University 614-292-9906 holland@osu.edu On Aug 11, 2010, at 4:01 PM, Greg Williams wrote: Ethan, sorry to not be of much help, but we've never had a problem with Band Steering. We have a pretty dense deployment so maybe that's why. But one thing you mentioned is you are using AP 105's. I can't remember 100% but I did see a degradation in signal using the 105's on 5ghz vs 2.4ghz vs. AP 125 when in a classroom, walled type environment. The AP 105's only have a 2X2 spatial stream not a 3X3. We are using the AP 105's in more open areas for that reason and 125's in the classroom type environments. Greg Williams IT Security Principal University of Colorado at Colorado Springs -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Ethan Sommer Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Band Steering? We are upgrading part of our network using Aruba AP-105s and a pair of 3600 controllers. We've found an annoying problem when we have band steering turned on. We've create two SSIDs. Lets call them BandSteering and NoBandSteering. When users are relatively close to an access point, they can connect to either. My MacBook will usually connect using 2.4 Ghz on NoBandSteering and will always connect using 5ghz to BandSteering. When a user is further away from the access point, however, they can connect fine to NoBandSteering (obviously it is slower than when they were closer) but can't connect at all to the BandSteering SSID. It doesn't fail back to 2.4ghz, and the clients don't recognize that they can't connect and connect to NoBandSteering if that's lower in their preferred networks list. The effect is that, understandably, users will select the NoBandSteering SSID because it is more reliable. (Even though it is slower in most cases.) Aruba suggested that I try setting the 5ghz ARM profile to always max out the 5ghz radio, which helps some but does not eliminate the areas where 2.4ghz works and 5ghz doesn't. So, my questions are: 1. Are people using band steering? 2. Have you found the same problem? 3. Is there a way to fix it? (Other than turning off bandsteering.) 4. I suppose a related question is, is there a way to make client computers prefer 5ghz more? I guess we'll probably just not use band steering if we can't find a solution, but it would be a shame not to better utilize the 5ghz spectrum better. Thanks for any suggestions! Ethan -- Ethan Sommer Associate Director of Core Services Gustavus Technology Services somm...@gustavus.edu 507-933-7042 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription
RE: Spectrum load balancing/Band steering
We tried it here at Liberty University, but turned it off. We found that some clients that insisted on preferring 802.11g were flapping between 2.4 GHz 5 GHz. I think that was with ArubaOS 3.3.2.10. The current version is 3.3.2.13. What version are you guys using? All our APs are AP-125 too. Perhaps that is another difference. Thanks, Bruce Osborne Liberty University -Original Message- From: Brian J David [mailto:davi...@bc.edu] Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:33 AM Subject: Spectrum load balancing/Band steering This question is for those Aruba deployments. Has anybody tried the spectrum load balancing feature yet, if so, how have your results been? We are using the Band steering feature and have found that it works very well and was wondering what others have been experiencing? -Brian Brian J David Network Systems Engineer Boston College ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Spectrum load balancing/Band steering
This question is for those Aruba deployments. Has anybody tried the spectrum load balancing feature yet, if so, how have your results been? We are using the Band steering feature and have found that it works very well and was wondering what others have been experiencing? -Brian Brian J David Network Systems Engineer Boston College ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Spectrum load balancing/Band steering
We have tried both with great results. -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Brian J David Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:33 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Spectrum load balancing/Band steering This question is for those Aruba deployments. Has anybody tried the spectrum load balancing feature yet, if so, how have your results been? We are using the Band steering feature and have found that it works very well and was wondering what others have been experiencing? -Brian Brian J David Network Systems Engineer Boston College ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
