Re: [WSG] Positioning driving me nuts

[Michael Allan]

Sorry I haven't got time to test a fix for you, Jackie, but I notice 
that your  doesn't seem to have a closing tag ... 
perhaps that's causing the problems?

Cheers,
Mike
On Thursday, March 4, 2004, at 06:22  PM, Jackie Reid wrote:

In my wisdom i have decided to revamp a site that's not even finished 
yet and now I've broke it!!
 
Why won't the content sit up where it should here 
http://www.healthpoint.com.au/new2.php want the stuff that starts home 
>> new2 to sit up in the middle there and it just won't!! driving me 
nuts, nuts, nuts.
 
Please help...i keep looking but cant see the wood for the trees.
 
 
code is here http://www.healthpoint.com.au/css/new.css
 
 
 
Jackie Reid
Mock Orange Web Site Development
1st Floor
92 Victoria Street
MACKAY Q 4740
Ph: 07 4953 4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[WSG] Positioning driving me nuts

[Jackie Reid]

In my wisdom i have decided to revamp a site that's 
not even finished yet and now I've broke it!!
 
Why won't the content sit up where it should here 
http://www.healthpoint.com.au/new2.php 
want the stuff that starts home >> new2 to sit up in the middle there and 
it just won't!! driving me nuts, nuts, nuts.
 
Please help...i keep looking but cant see the wood 
for the trees.
 
 
code is here http://www.healthpoint.com.au/css/new.css 

 
 
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site 
Development1st Floor92 Victoria StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 
4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[StBlanz]

Hello Tonico, hello list,

>Is it just fashionable to use s for navigation? Which standard says
>that a navigation should be a list?
>Who benefits from more semantic /navigation/? 

Well, some say: a navigation semantically is a list, others say: it's not. (I also 
think, it's a list and semantic markup is a part of webstandards, not of fashion). 
But IMHO the deciding advantage is: subnavigations, that are nested in li are read out 
(as nested) in some Screenreaders (f.e. Jaws, unfortunately not HPR). So in my 
opinion, in (semantic) theorie and (assistive) practice we should use lists. (And we 
still have all possibilities in css-design.)

I also had hard problems with horizontal menus including subnavigation and gave up. 
But as we have an example, that it works, it's only one time too learn it and the hard 
times are over :-)

Greetings
Stefan
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Re: [WSG] He said she said :-) FIR and other such techniques

[Chris Blown]

I posted my thoughts earlier today about this. Specifically relating to
the CSS3 "content" property. See : "Re: [WSG] Nicely styled Hx tags".

The main thing to ensure is, when you remove the style sheet none of the
communicable content should disappear, only presentation of said
content. 
 
Regards
Chris Blown


On Thu, 2004-03-04 at 15:57, scott parsons wrote:
> OK, I have a question then with most image replacement techniques for 
> headings the content remains in the html
> eg. title here please
> 
> But is an image of this text in a pretty font or whatever even content? 
> Isn't it just presentation and therefore the perfect thing for the 
> stylesheet to represent?
> 
> The content is still there, but we are presenting it differently. I see 
> no difference between this and setting a font colour (ok a small 
> difference but I am trying to make a point).
> 
> h...
> 
> discuss
> 
> 
> John Allsopp wrote:
> 
> >
> > Thanks Peter,
> >
> >> I'm here John! Really, I'm not the anti-accessibility guy you think I 
> >> am  ... I just believe in good design, and good design has to 
> >> communicate. In most cases that gels exactly with your own 
> >> philosophy. :)
> >
> >
> > Yeah, I know :-)  But I do know the value you place on typography (a 
> > thing of beauty don't get me wrong)
> >
> >> Congrats on StyleMaster BTW!
> >
> >
> > many thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > John Allsopp
> >
> > :: westciv ::
> > software, courses, resources for a standards based web
> > style master blog http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
> > http://www.westciv.com/
> >
> > *
> > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> > *
> >
> >
> >
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> * 
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [WSG] He said she said :-) FIR and other such techniques

[scott parsons]

OK, I have a question then with most image replacement techniques for 
headings the content remains in the html
eg. title here please

But is an image of this text in a pretty font or whatever even content? 
Isn't it just presentation and therefore the perfect thing for the 
stylesheet to represent?

The content is still there, but we are presenting it differently. I see 
no difference between this and setting a font colour (ok a small 
difference but I am trying to make a point).

h...

discuss

John Allsopp wrote:

Thanks Peter,

I'm here John! Really, I'm not the anti-accessibility guy you think I 
am  ... I just believe in good design, and good design has to 
communicate. In most cases that gels exactly with your own 
philosophy. :)


Yeah, I know :-)  But I do know the value you place on typography (a 
thing of beauty don't get me wrong)

Congrats on StyleMaster BTW!


many thanks,

John

John Allsopp

:: westciv ::
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
style master blog http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
http://www.westciv.com/
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Re: [WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file

[Justin French]

On Thursday, March 4, 2004, at 02:53  PM, Adam Carmichael wrote:

Beau wrote:

James Ellis said:
You could also divide your stylesheet up into different files - one 
for
navigation, one for layout, one for headings etc etc - then link (or
however you do it) them all in.
I would have thought that from a general performance perspective, 
splitting
the CSS into too many files would be a bad idea, since each one is 
going to
require an extra HTTP Request/Response to download. That extra 
traffic will
cost you bytes (and time), so if you need all that CSS on the page, 
you may as
well have it all in one file.
A few hundred bytes at the _very_ most. Considering that most of the 
time you won't be loading blog.css, screenreader.css, projector.css, 
print.css and whatever else, you will be saving that transfer time and 
data easily. In a world of 56K modems even, 300 bytes (let's say 
you're sending a LOT of http headers [and for a stylesheet why would 
you?]), would still take under 0.04 seconds to transfer and in a world 
of broadband, that's even less. Considering that each stylesheet that 
you won't be loading up will probably contain more than 300 bytes, 
it's probably more sensible to split it up.

Besides, it makes for more manageable CSS when you want to edit it.
I totally agree here.

However, one area I haven't looked at is how alternate style sheets (eg 
color/font/layout changes) are handled with there's multiple 
(cascading) style sheets in play.

Style-sheet switching with one file (eg screen.css) is easy.  But let's 
pretend that we've got (for screen media):
- base.css (unchanging basic styles)
- fonts-a.css | fonts-b.css (two options)
- layout-a.css | layout-b.css (two options)
- blog.css (specific CSS file for this section)

How do style-switching browsers (eg opera), scripts and whatever else 
handle all that mess?

---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
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Re: [WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file

[Adam Carmichael]

JW wrote:

enough hmm) but somehow still not very please with the overall file size. I
heard about using php but just not very sure about the details. maybe some
of you might know?
PHP is a server side (well, mostly) programming language. Normally used 
to create HTML markup, but it can be used to create CSS or generate 
images on demand.

Well planned and written CSS is a better solution than using PHP to send 
the user dynamically generated stylesheet(s) based on the page they are 
viewing. It means less CPU load on the server.

An exception may be if you have several themese and a theme switcher, 
but even then, Javascript can do that for you without having to learn a 
new language (although for me, Javascript would be the new language I'd 
have to learn *grin*).

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Re: [WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file

[Adam Carmichael]

Beau wrote:

James Ellis said:

You could also divide your stylesheet up into different files - one for
navigation, one for layout, one for headings etc etc - then link (or
however you do it) them all in.


I would have thought that from a general performance perspective, splitting
the CSS into too many files would be a bad idea, since each one is going to
require an extra HTTP Request/Response to download. That extra traffic will
cost you bytes (and time), so if you need all that CSS on the page, you may as
well have it all in one file.
A few hundred bytes at the _very_ most. Considering that most of the 
time you won't be loading blog.css, screenreader.css, projector.css, 
print.css and whatever else, you will be saving that transfer time and 
data easily. In a world of 56K modems even, 300 bytes (let's say you're 
sending a LOT of http headers [and for a stylesheet why would you?]), 
would still take under 0.04 seconds to transfer and in a world of 
broadband, that's even less. Considering that each stylesheet that you 
won't be loading up will probably contain more than 300 bytes, it's 
probably more sensible to split it up.

Besides, it makes for more manageable CSS when you want to edit it.

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Re: [WSG] Nicely styled Hx tags

[Kay Smoljak]

russ weakley wrote:

However, all of these image replacement methods have serious downsides that
should be explained to designers before they jump on them as a solution.
 

That's my view exactly. Some of the techniques are very good, but 
there's still nothing I'd want to use on a commercial site, where I 
think hackery should be kept to a minimum. Not to mention the extra 
development time - using css for layout is already pushing out the time 
required for html.

Which is why I was looking for resources on fonts and examples of nicely 
styled headings. I want to prove to the designers that it *can* be done, 
images not required! Thanks to everyone who responded - much appreciated.

We have a local internet industry social group here in Perth 
(http://www.port-80.net). Last night I heard that the next event will be 
a "designers vs developers" debate. Should be funny, although it could 
possibly end in violence :)

K.

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Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Jackie Reid]

>  And don't get me started on s ;)
>

this bit seems to have been swept under the carpet..

I'm really interested to hear what is wrong with 's for navigation as,
to my pedantic and not so up there with css sort of a mind, it actually
seems like a pretty darn good idea to me.


Jackie Reid
Mock Orange Web Site Development
1st Floor
92 Victoria Street
MACKAY Q 4740
Ph: 07 4953 4035

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Martin Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup


>
> >  And don't get me started on s ;)
> >
>
> Come on then... about the s ;o) I was going to suggest them, since
> the inclusion of the  as well as the  has its' benefits.
> However, I know there are some downsides (but I am yet to come across a
> significant one).
>
> Kind regards
> Martin Chapman
>
> --
>
> Web development, identity and design.
>
> co-ord.com Limited
> 9 Tynwald Road
> West Kirby
> Merseyside
> CH48 4DA
>
> Tel: +44 (0)151 625 1443
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> http://www.co-ord.com
>
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Re: [WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file

[Beau]

James Ellis said:
> You could also divide your stylesheet up into different files - one for
> navigation, one for layout, one for headings etc etc - then link (or
> however you do it) them all in.

I would have thought that from a general performance perspective, splitting
the CSS into too many files would be a bad idea, since each one is going to
require an extra HTTP Request/Response to download. That extra traffic will
cost you bytes (and time), so if you need all that CSS on the page, you may as
well have it all in one file.

I normally only use separate files where I have a unique set of definitions
for an area of my site.

i.e. all files have general.css & print.css, some areas also include blog.css
(guess which ones :)

Just a thought.

Beau

-- 
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Information Architect
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dented Reality - www.dentedreality.com.au
Information Architecture, Usability, Web Development
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Re: [WSG] Nicely styled Hx tags

[Chris Blown]

The CSS3 "content" property is a grey semantic area IMHO.

If you have hn content in the markup and adjust the presentation in the
CSS like colours, fonts and backgrounds, 

Then what's so unsound about styling the content with an image, this is
not content in my mind it is presentation, because it provides 
ornamentation (what CSS was designed to do) whilst preserving the element 
it was applied to.

If the author ensures the image only does replacement, in other words no
extra content is included in the image, then by removing the style sheet
you don't lose anything but presentation.

I agree with the idea that using the content property for adding content
is a bad idea, but using content for replacement is not so bad as
everyone is making out.

Anyway since only a couple of browsers support this, its not a real
alternative, yet...

Cheers
Chris Blown

> Perhaps this quote of John Allsop's should read, "...how much worse is 
> it to put *content* inside the CSS file?"
> 


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[WSG] furphy in IE

[James Ellis]

Hi

In IE in Win32, a background image for a  lines up with the 
top of the  tag rather than the top border of the  :

background-image
- legend --
background-image

The top border appears in the middle of the legend as above.

In other browsers the background-image with a position of "top left;" 
appears within the fieldset borders correctly.

Anyone have any ideas about this?

Cheers
James
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Re: [WSG] Nicely styled Hx tags

[Chris Blown]

Granted, these are just examples by Dave, but this demonstrates why you
should always include font-family.
 
My browser defaults to sans serif here, since I don't have "Times New
Roman". From the font survey link posted yesterday I guess I am one of
the 20 odd percent of Linux users who don't have this font. From my
experience with Linux "Times" is the most common.

font-family : Times New Roman, Times, serif;

Regards
Chris Blown

> Dave Shea has some nice examples of using Times New Roman, half way 
> through the article at:
> http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/07/24/times_new_ro/
> 


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Re: [WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file

[JW]

Hi John, is there any way that I can email you direct so as not to spam the
board with my questions regarding this product? 
 
With Regards,
Jaime Wong
~~~
SODesires Design Team
http://www.sodesires.com
~~~
---Original Message---
 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 4/03/2004 6:18:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file
 
Jaime,
 
> I have been thinking if there are any ways to minimise CSS files as my
> css files are growing bigger and bigger.There are so many different
> ways to write the CSS codes but which way is the most efficient way so
> to save space but still looks neat.
> 
> I haven't been able to find a writeup on this in the net. Anyone has
> any suggestion?
 
I guess its a matter of taste.
 
Because whitespace is in essence ignored, you can add formatting as you
please.
 
A couple of very common formats are
 
p {
color: red;
font-size: 1em;
}
 
p {
color: red;
font-size: 1em;
}
 
 
p {color: red;
font-size: 1em;}
 
I kind of like the properties on separate lines, and even tabbing them
in to make them more obvious
 
Now, at the risk of sounding promotional, Style Master, which I am one
of the developers of (by the way, it is Australian, for what it's
worth, don't let the .com address fool you :-) has a Format Style Sheet
feature.
 
You simply format a dummy rule in the options/preferences window, then
you can apply this to any style sheet. Style aster will automatically
format your style sheets as you go, when you use its editors.
 
BTW, we've just upgraded Style Master to 3.5. It's for Mac and Windows,
and you can get more information here.
 
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/
 
And even though my partner at westciv, Maxine, will kill me (don't tell
her ok) for WSG members here is a little special offer.
 
Get Style Master for US$49.99 instead of $59.99, but only here
 
https://order.kagi.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?storeID=WC3&&;
 
and only for a limited time (until Maxine finds out :-)
 
thanks,
 
john
 
John Allsopp
 
:: westciv ::
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
style master blog http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
http://www.westciv.com/
 
 

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Re: [WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file

[JW]

Do you still see the blinking incredimal image? Sending in plain text now.

Sorry using the free version. Wanted to switch to outlook but Incredimail
won't let me export my stuff so I am stuck with it. So ppl don't get this
email or even try it unless you are prepared to register it but not saying
that it is not good.

I do divide up my css files and use descendant selectors (maybe not well
enough hmm) but somehow still not very please with the overall file size. I
heard about using php but just not very sure about the details. maybe some
of you might know?
 
With Regards,
Jaime Wong

---Original Message---
 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 4/03/2004 6:42:14 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file
 
Jaime -
 
Moving to descendant selectors really helped me minimise the amount of
classes and ids I ended up using - which saves line space.
 
You could also divide your stylesheet up into different files - one for
navigation, one for layout, one for headings etc etc - then link (or
however you do it) them all in.
 
Cheers
James
 
BTW, is it possible for you to remove that blinking Incredimail icon
from your emails (or send them as plain text - not html)? it's very
difficult to read your posts with that going off in the corner. I think
it breaks the 2hz to 55hz rule :D
 
 
JW wrote:
 
> I have been thinking if there are any ways to minimise CSS files as my
> css files are growing bigger and bigger.There are so many different
> ways to write the CSS codes but which way is the most efficient way so
> to save space but still looks neat.
>
> I haven't been able to find a writeup on this in the net. Anyone has
> any suggestion?
>
>
> With Regards,
> /Jaime Wong/
> ~~~
> *SODesires Design Team*
> http://www.sodesires.com 
> ~~~
>
>
>
>
> 
>  /IncrediMail/
> - *Email has finally evolved* - * Click Here *
> 
 
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Re: [WSG] He said she said :-) FIR and other such techniques

[John Allsopp]

Thanks Peter,

I'm here John! Really, I'm not the anti-accessibility guy you think I 
am  ... I just believe in good design, and good design has to 
communicate. In most cases that gels exactly with your own philosophy. 
:)
Yeah, I know :-)  But I do know the value you place on typography (a 
thing of beauty don't get me wrong)

Congrats on StyleMaster BTW!
many thanks,

John

John Allsopp

:: westciv ::
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
style master blog http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
http://www.westciv.com/
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Re: [WSG] He said she said :-) FIR and other such techniques

[Universal Head]

I'm here John! Really, I'm not the anti-accessibility guy you think I am  ... I just believe in good design, and good design has to communicate. In most cases that gels exactly with your own philosophy. :)
Congrats on StyleMaster BTW!
P


On 04/03/2004, at 9:11 AM, John Allsopp wrote:

OK, so you don't get an exact font match. I know some people disagree (Peter=Universal Head are you out there) but that is simply not the way of the web.


Universal Head 
Design That Works.

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NSW 2048 Australia
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Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Michael Zeltner]

Tonico Strasser wrote:
Please, can you tell me more about the problem with Jaws and how it can 
be fixed?
floats instead of inline elements for navigation. jaws uses ie, and ie 
renders it as inline element so jaws will read it as inline element.

floated blocks (btw, can one float list elements?) will be read 
differently (afaik. i don't have jaws yet).

lets hope new versions will support the new "screenreader" (just heard 
of it) media type.

regards, michael
--
 jiin
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Re: [WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file

[James Ellis]

Jaime -

Moving to descendant selectors really helped me minimise the amount of 
classes and ids I ended up using - which saves line space.

You could also divide your stylesheet up into different files - one for 
navigation, one for layout, one for headings etc etc - then link (or 
however you do it) them all in.

Cheers
James
BTW, is it possible for you to remove that blinking Incredimail icon 
from your emails (or send them as plain text - not html)? it's very 
difficult to read your posts with that going off in the corner. I think 
it breaks the 2hz to 55hz rule :D

JW wrote:

I have been thinking if there are any ways to minimise CSS files as my 
css files are growing bigger and bigger.There are so many different 
ways to write the CSS codes but which way is the most efficient way so 
to save space but still looks neat.
 
I haven't been able to find a writeup on this in the net. Anyone has 
any suggestion?
 
 
With Regards,
/Jaime Wong/
~~~
*SODesires Design Team*
http://www.sodesires.com 
~~~




  /IncrediMail/ 
- *Email has finally evolved* - * Click Here * 
 
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[WSG] He said she said :-) FIR and other such techniques

[John Allsopp]

Hi all,


John Allsopp (one of the original CSS guru's) explains this better than 
I
can...  He says "If it is bad to put presentation on the page, how much
worse is it to put presentation inside the CSS file? It is fundamentally
unsound."


Russ,
Perhaps this quote of John Allsop's should read, "...how much worse is 
it to
put *content* inside the CSS file?"
 -Hugh Todd :)


Oops. You're correct!
Maybe I should just let John quote himself!  :)
Well spotted Hugh.

This came out of a discussion Russ and I and a few others have had a 
couple of times, at WSG meetings and elsewhere (so if you are in 
Melbourne or surrounds, get down to the meeting on Monday, at RMIT, and 
you too can discuss such erudite matters :-)

I guess my instinct has been since I saw these techniques, "whoa, hold 
on a second.

It took me a little time to work out just why.

I think there are both practical and theoretical problems with these 
techniques.

They have pretty much all the downsides of "images for text" which 
using an image element in HTML has.
Accessibility issues and so.
But worse still is that they put content in the CSS. And as the above 
exchange points ou, if it is poor practice to put presentation in the 
HTML, surely it has to be worse to put content in the CSS?

On top of that, what's the upside? Nicer typography I guess.

Not on Safari, that's for sure. Because a pre rendered image, 
especially a gif, will probably have less fidelity and resolution than 
a system rendered, anti aliased text, especially as rendered by a nice 
engine.

But not everyone uses Safari you say.

They will soon. One way or another. New versions of IE will match it's 
font rendering. And Safari is available on Windows for that matter. I 
bet some of you use it already You just don't know it ;-)

OK, so you don't get an exact font match. I know some people disagree 
(Peter=Universal Head are you out there) but that is simply not the way 
of the web.

Is it ever acceptable? Well, for decorative, non content based images, 
by all means include them in your css.

What about logos and other branding which must conform to a standard. 
I'd use image elements in HTML. Afterall, this is content is it not?

Anyway, just my ranting,

John

John Allsopp

:: westciv ::
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
style master blog http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
http://www.westciv.com/
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Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Tonico Strasser]

Michael Zeltner wrote:

Tonico Strasser wrote:

Who benefits from more semantic /navigation/? Maybe a XSLT designer?


the only benefits are: you have the data in it's natural form and 
semantic markup is automatically perfectly accessible (the only problem 
would be a stupid (sorry) ua like jaws, but even that is easily solvable).
Please, can you tell me more about the problem with Jaws and how it can 
be fixed?

Thanks.

Tonico



--
Tonico Strasser ?:-)
http://Tonico.FreeZope.org
Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de
Check out http://www.WebProducer.at
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Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Michael Zeltner]

Tonico Strasser wrote:
Who benefits from more semantic /navigation/? Maybe a XSLT designer?
the only benefits are: you have the data in it's natural form and 
semantic markup is automatically perfectly accessible (the only problem 
would be a stupid (sorry) ua like jaws, but even that is easily solvable).

the w3c defined functions for tags. a navigation is naturally a list. so 
it should be a list, even in the markup and not only visually.

they just give you enough freedom to do what you think is better ;)

regards, michael
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Re: [WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file

[John Allsopp]

Jaime,

I have been thinking if there are any ways to minimise CSS files as my css files are growing bigger and bigger.There are so many different ways to write the CSS codes but which way is the most efficient way so to save space but still looks neat.
 
I haven't been able to find a writeup on this in the net. Anyone has any suggestion?

I guess its a matter of taste.

Because whitespace is in essence ignored, you can add formatting as you please.

A couple of very common formats are

p {
color: red;
font-size: 1em;
}

p {
color: red;
font-size: 1em;
}


p {color: red;
font-size: 1em;}

I kind of like the properties on separate lines, and even tabbing them in to make them more obvious

Now, at the risk of sounding promotional, Style Master, which I am one of the developers of (by the way, it is Australian, for what it's worth, don't let the .com address fool you :-) has a Format Style Sheet feature.

You simply format a dummy rule in the options/preferences window, then you can apply this to any style sheet. Style aster will automatically format your style sheets as you go, when you use its editors.

BTW, we've just upgraded Style Master to 3.5. It's for Mac and Windows, and you can get more information here.

http://www.westciv.com/style_master/

And even though my partner at westciv, Maxine, will kill me (don't tell her ok) for WSG members here is a little special offer.

Get Style Master for US$49.99 instead of $59.99, but only here

https://order.kagi.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?storeID=WC3&&

and only for a limited time (until Maxine finds out :-)

thanks,

john

John Allsopp

:: westciv ::
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
style master blog http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
http://www.westciv.com/

[WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file

[JW]

I have been thinking if there are any ways to minimise CSS files as my css files are growing bigger and bigger.There are so many different ways to write the CSS codes but which way is the most efficient way so to save space but still looks neat.
 
I haven't been able to find a writeup on this in the net. Anyone has any suggestion?
 
 
With Regards,
Jaime Wong
~~~
SODesires Design Team
http://www.sodesires.com
~~~







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Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Tonico Strasser]

Manuel González Noriega wrote:

Who benefits from more semantic /navigation/? Maybe a XSLT designer?


Call me a pervert but i get a kick from elegant html sources :D
Ok, me too.

Thanks to all for your replies.

Tonico

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Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Martin Chapman]

 And don't get me started on s ;)

Come on then... about the s ;o) I was going to suggest them, since 
the inclusion of the  as well as the  has its' benefits. 
However, I know there are some downsides (but I am yet to come across a 
significant one).

Kind regards
Martin Chapman
--

Web development, identity and design.

co-ord.com Limited
9 Tynwald Road
West Kirby
Merseyside
CH48 4DA
Tel: +44 (0)151 625 1443
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.co-ord.com

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RE: [WSG] CSS and PhpNuke

[roger]

Hi Anton,

The site looks really good but i agree with you on hacking the programs with Nuke. 

Mike,

Thanks for the link I will scour through it.

Michael,

Thanks! This is really cool I am already working on installing Plone to my host and 
playing around. Give me anything else you have on this. You can email me directly if 
you like.

Thanks,
Roger

>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS and PhpNuke
> From: "Anton Andreasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, March 03, 2004 2:12 am
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> >Does anyone have any examples of well implemented CSS with this
> program?
> 
> You can take a look at: http://www.stockholmsfria.nu/, it's the 
> online version of a Swedish newspaper I'm working with. I've done the 
> CSS coding and the phpNuke hacking which, to be honest, is a pain in 
> the ___. The whole OpenTable()/CloseTable() abuse is sparyed all over 
> the code (inserts  eye candy for fake borders etc) and ed & 
> eakfast, unquoted attributes and lack of semantics is also very 
> common. Needless to say I didn't chose this CMS ;) but just continued 
> an old project, trying to make the best out of it. I could give you 
> some more tips off-list if you decide to go with it, but it's 
> definately coded by geeks, for geeks, and mainly as a community-forum 
> (with private upload areas, my stock quotes, etc) and not an ideal 
> CMS, if that's the main thing you want.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> /Anton
> -- 
> What your  lacks, your  compensates.
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Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Manuel González Noriega]

El mié, 03-03-2004 a las 19:05, Tonico Strasser escribió:
> 
> > 
> Thanks Manuel,
> 
> I wonder if version b is less accessible or standards compliant than 
> version a. It would be much easier for me to use version b.

If it validates, it's not less standard compliant than anything. As for
accessibilty, i would say that nested  link together parent and
children terms.

> Is it just fashionable to use s for navigation? Which standard says 
> that a navigation should be a list?

There's no standards about semantic writing. It all comes down to
general consensus, good practices and ultimately designer's judgement. 
For me, navigation bars are unordered lists because they *are lists* of
terms. I think they could be s also. And don't get me started on
s ;)


> Who benefits from more semantic /navigation/? Maybe a XSLT designer?

Call me a pervert but i get a kick from elegant html sources :D



-- 
Manuel González Noriega
Simplelógica, construcción web  
URL: http://simplelogica.net
EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65
   
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Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Tonico Strasser]

Martin Chapman wrote:
What are you finding hard with the horizontal styling?
I've done it once, it was very tricky. Floats and positioning is 
difficult, not only in older browsers. I'm also using EMs not px.

I'm just wondering if I should always use nested s for this kind of 
navigation?

> Do you have an example of what you are working on? Do
you mean a horizontal sub-menu as a drop-down menu?
Here is a screenshot of what it should look at the end:

  

It costs me a lot of time to build a navigation like this only because 
it should be a nested ul?

Tonico

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Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Tonico Strasser]

Manuel González Noriega wrote:

El mié, 03-03-2004 a las 18:11, Tonico Strasser escribió:


I know them, but no one has a submenu. Maybe beacause it is too difficult?


Kalsey's tabs?
http://kalsey.com/tools/csstabs/
HTH :)
Thanks Manuel,

I wonder if version b is less accessible or standards compliant than 
version a. It would be much easier for me to use version b.

Is it just fashionable to use s for navigation? Which standard says 
that a navigation should be a list?

Who benefits from more semantic /navigation/? Maybe a XSLT designer?

Tonico

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Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Martin Chapman]

What are you finding hard with the horizontal styling?  navigation 
(horizontally) isn't too hard, just takes some time to get used to. Are 
you using floats? Do you have an example of what you are working on? Do 
you mean a horizontal sub-menu as a drop-down menu?

On 3 Mar 2004, at 17:11, Tonico Strasser wrote:

Manuel González Noriega wrote:

El mié, 03-03-2004 a las 16:54, Tonico Strasser escribió:
Version a) may look better from a semantic point of view, and 
version b) is probably better for textbrowsers, screenreaders etc? 
Version b) is also easier for styling with CSS IMO.
I can see no problems with version a) at all.
I want a horizontal graphical navigation like at amazon.com. I find it 
very hard for styling with CSS.

front (never heard screenreaders et al have any problem with nested
lists) neither for styling,
Ok, version a has no problems with accessibility but what about 
version b?

with well known references such 'Taming
Lists' at ALA or Listtutorial at css.maxdesign.au (too lazy to check 
the
URLs now :)
I know them, but no one has a submenu. Maybe beacause it is too 
difficult?

Tonico

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Kind regards
Martin Chapman
--

Web development, identity and design.

co-ord.com Limited
9 Tynwald Road
West Kirby
Merseyside
CH48 4DA
Tel: +44 (0)151 625 1443
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.co-ord.com

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Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Manuel González Noriega]

El mié, 03-03-2004 a las 18:11, Tonico Strasser escribió:
> 

> 
> I know them, but no one has a submenu. Maybe beacause it is too difficult?

Kalsey's tabs?
http://kalsey.com/tools/csstabs/

HTH :)




-- 
Manuel González Noriega
Simplelógica, construcción web  
URL: http://simplelogica.net
EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65
   
Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/
That's right. We said Frontpage.

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Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Tonico Strasser]

Manuel González Noriega wrote:

El mié, 03-03-2004 a las 16:54, Tonico Strasser escribió:


Version a) may look better from a semantic point of view, and version b) 
is probably better for textbrowsers, screenreaders etc? Version b) is 
also easier for styling with CSS IMO.


I can see no problems with version a) at all.
I want a horizontal graphical navigation like at amazon.com. I find it 
very hard for styling with CSS.

front (never heard screenreaders et al have any problem with nested
lists) neither for styling,
Ok, version a has no problems with accessibility but what about version b?

with well known references such 'Taming
Lists' at ALA or Listtutorial at css.maxdesign.au (too lazy to check the
URLs now :)  
I know them, but no one has a submenu. Maybe beacause it is too difficult?

Tonico

--
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http://Tonico.FreeZope.org
Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de
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Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Manuel González Noriega]

El mié, 03-03-2004 a las 16:54, Tonico Strasser escribió:

> Version a) may look better from a semantic point of view, and version b) 
> is probably better for textbrowsers, screenreaders etc? Version b) is 
> also easier for styling with CSS IMO.


I can see no problems with version a) at all. Nor in the accesibility
front (never heard screenreaders et al have any problem with nested
lists) neither for styling, with well known references such 'Taming
Lists' at ALA or Listtutorial at css.maxdesign.au (too lazy to check the
URLs now :)  


-- 
Manuel González Noriega
Simplelógica, construcción web  
URL: http://simplelogica.net
EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65
   
Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/
That's right. We said Frontpage.

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Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Tonico Strasser]

Michael Zeltner wrote:

Tonico Strasser wrote:

Version a) may look better from a semantic point of view, and version 
b) is probably better for textbrowsers, screenreaders etc? Version b) 
is also easier for styling with CSS IMO.


a is perfectly accessible, and imo much better for screenreaders (beware 
of jaws... ie is nasty. needs some hacks.).

and you can do actually completly the same styling, well even more, 
because you have more tags, with version a.
I've tried to style a graphical horizontal navigation with tabs using a 
nested ul, but I found it very hard.

Tonico

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Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Michael Zeltner]

Tonico Strasser wrote:
Version a) may look better from a semantic point of view, and version b) 
is probably better for textbrowsers, screenreaders etc? Version b) is 
also easier for styling with CSS IMO.
a is perfectly accessible, and imo much better for screenreaders (beware 
of jaws... ie is nasty. needs some hacks.).

and you can do actually completly the same styling, well even more, 
because you have more tags, with version a.

uhm and, semanticism implies accessibility.

regards, michael
--
 jiin
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Re: [WSG] CSS and PhpNuke

[Michael Zeltner]

i'd recommend plone (http://plone.org/), but probably because i'm one of 
the guys at the ui team ;)

we're really focusing on accessibility, semantic markup, and flexibility 
through css.

if you have any questions: there are plone irc channels (#plone and 
#plonedesign (the ui channel) on freenode) and mailinglists 
(http://plone.org/documentation/lists).

regards, michael
--
 jiin
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[WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Tonico Strasser]

Hello,

what markup do you think is more appropriate for a navigation with 
subnavigation (as seen at amazon.com).

a)


  item one

  subitem one
  subitem two

  
  item two

b)

item one | item two
subitem one | subitem two
Version a) may look better from a semantic point of view, and version b) 
is probably better for textbrowsers, screenreaders etc? Version b) is 
also easier for styling with CSS IMO.

There was a similar discussion at simplebits, but I haven't found an 
answer to my question there. 


Tonico

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Re: [WSG] CSS and PhpNuke

[Michael Allan]

On Wednesday, March 3, 2004, at 03:14  PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

If anyone has any other recommended Open Source CMS systems out there 
please pass them along as well.

Thanks,

Roger
Can't help you out with PHPNuke specifically, I'm afraid, but if you 
want to preview the alternatives this is a pretty good place to start:

http://www.opensourcecms.com/

Cheers,
Mike
ps. First post to the list after lurking here for a couple of weeks. 
Looking forward to meeting everyone who'll be attending on Monday!

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[WSG] CSS Shopping Cart

[Andy Budd]

Hi folks.

Does anybody know of a good, CSS based shopping cart.

I've looked into Zen Cart (www.zen-cart.com) but it looks like it still 
uses tables for layout. It seems good for large scale e-com sites but a 
little feature rich for small to medium shopping sites.

Karova (www.karova.com) looks interesting but is a hosted .Net. 
solution.

I'm looking for something preferably open source and LAMP based, 
standards compliant and aimed at small to medium sites. I'd like it to 
be easy to customise, so a combination of CSS layout and templating 
would be supurb. Does anybody know of anything like this?

Basically what I want is a PHP shopping cart version of MT.

Andy Budd

http://www.message.uk.com/

(p.s. I've posted this to css-discuss as well, so sorry for the cross 
post)

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[WSG] The AIMIA Awards

[Mark Stanton]

Hey All

You might remember that a few weeks back there was a post about the AIMIA
awards
(http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg01675.html), and
that I kicked off a bit of a discussion about the apparent lack of
recognition for standards in the awards process.

Anyway I got a call the other day from the project manager of the awards &
we had a bit of a chat about the current state of the awards, the comments
on the WSG list and what can be done in future to address the concerns that
we had. Just goes to show... be careful of what you ask for - you might just
get it ;)

So I was thinking I'd put it to you lot - what can AIMIA do to encourage
truly high quality, accessible and standards compliant design?

Points to consider are:

- This is AIMIA, they cover Web, CDRom, DVD, Games, Kiosks and so on, so
saying make sure all contestant must be AAA will be missing the point.

- Entry is limited to AIMIA members, I have no idea how big or small this
group is but we have to deal with the fact that we are dealing with a
limited subset of sites.

- Judges come from a range of backgrounds (advertising, project management,
design and development) - how could they effectively work technical criteria
into the judging process?

- Things that matter to coders don't always matter to normal people (even
though we know coders are always right :)

- We've got "four pillars" of standards (accessibility, validation,
separation of content & presentation and semantics) - which ones are
important in this context and how do you judge each?

I want to pool any the ideas we get and send something semi-formal back to
AIMIA. We can't just sit here complaining like those two old men in the
Muppets, they've given us an opportunity to influence this awards process -
lets see what we can come up with.

Please think in the context of the existing awards
(http://www.aimia.com.au), look at what they already have in place and
consider how this can be adjusted rather than designing a new awards process
from scratch. Be practical & put some thought in. They have shown us some
respect by looking for our feedback, I'm sure we can make a valuable
contribution here.


Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton 
Technical Director 
Gruden Pty Ltd 
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201 
Fax: 9956 8433 
http://www.gruden.com 

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[WSG] Filtering out Safari 1.2 frmo Mozilla?

[Anton Andreasson]

Hi, could someone please help me out here. I need to feed Mozilla 
with this code:

html[xmlns] > body #chronique div.title { margin: -1.5em 0 0 20px; }

...but I need to reset the top margin for Safari 1.2, is there any 
way this can be done? I just noticed (rather late, I know ;) that 
Safari 1.2 eats the html[xmlns] selector but hasn't got Mozilla's way 
of handling list-position:inside, so my Magazine page triggers a 
"buggy" appearance in the otherwise wonderful OS X browser..

TIA,

/Anton
--
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Re: [WSG] CSS and PhpNuke

[Anton Andreasson]

Does anyone have any examples of well implemented CSS with this program?
You can take a look at: http://www.stockholmsfria.nu/, it's the 
online version of a Swedish newspaper I'm working with. I've done the 
CSS coding and the phpNuke hacking which, to be honest, is a pain in 
the ___. The whole OpenTable()/CloseTable() abuse is sparyed all over 
the code (inserts  eye candy for fake borders etc) and ed & 
eakfast, unquoted attributes and lack of semantics is also very 
common. Needless to say I didn't chose this CMS ;) but just continued 
an old project, trying to make the best out of it. I could give you 
some more tips off-list if you decide to go with it, but it's 
definately coded by geeks, for geeks, and mainly as a community-forum 
(with private upload areas, my stock quotes, etc) and not an ideal 
CMS, if that's the main thing you want.

cheers,

/Anton
--
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Re: [WSG] Nicely styled Hx tags

[russ weakley]

Oops. You're correct!
Maybe I should just let John quote himself!  :)
Russ


> 
> Russ,
> 
> Perhaps this quote of John Allsop's should read, "...how much worse is
> it to put *content* inside the CSS file?"
> 
> -Hugh Todd :)
> 
>> John Allsopp (one of the original CSS guru's) explains this better
>> than I
>> can...  He says "If it is bad to put presentation on the page, how much
>> worse is it to put presentation inside the CSS file? It is
>> fundamentally
>> unsound."

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Re: [WSG] Nicely styled Hx tags

[Hugh Todd]

Russ,

Perhaps this quote of John Allsop's should read, "...how much worse is 
it to put *content* inside the CSS file?"

-Hugh Todd :)

John Allsopp (one of the original CSS guru's) explains this better 
than I
can...  He says "If it is bad to put presentation on the page, how much
worse is it to put presentation inside the CSS file? It is 
fundamentally
unsound."
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Re: [WSG] Nicely styled Hx tags

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Kay,

> well as some awesome-looking examples of styled headings, to make them

Dave Shea has some nice examples of using Times New Roman, half way 
through the article at:
http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/07/24/times_new_ro/

Cheers,

--ben
http://www.daemon.com.au/
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