Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[Chris Blown]

I am correct in saying that xstandard doesn't support Linux and Mac OS?
 
On Fri, 2004-05-07 at 13:34, Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:
> Hi David,
> 
> One way to pick the right editor for your needs is to go to the Web sites of
> WYSIWYG vendors and check the quality of the code they generate for their
> own Web site. If their Web pages aren't validating with W3C to the standard
> you need to meet, then their WYSIWYG editor won't do the job for you. Here
> is the link to the W3C validator:
> 
> http://validator.w3.org/
> 
> Regards,
> -Vlad
> XStandard Development Team
> http://xstandard.com
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "David Gironella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WSG (E-mail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 6:26 AM
> Subject: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor
> 
> 
> > Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?
> >
> > Thk
> >
> > David Gironella Casademont
> >
> > *
> > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> > *
> >
> >
> 
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> * 
> 
> 
> 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] reply from ACA

[Jackie Reid]

Miles said...
>> Seems like they glazed over when reading the accessibility 
information in your original email. 
 
They didnt just "glaze over it" they completely 
missed the point!!!
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site Development1st Floor92 Victoria 
StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Miles Tillinger 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 3:03 PM
  Subject: RE: [WSG] reply from ACA
  
  Seems like they glazed over when reading the 
  accessibility information in your original email.  This is all to 
  familiar for me as there are ppl you can explain the benefits of 
  standards to 10x a day and they still forget what it all means by the 
  next day...  In most cases if it's a small site then the person 
  maintaining it is probably not very web-savvy and probably knows little or 
  nothing of the HTML/CSS that formats the site behind the scenes.  As long 
  as they can publish content with Frontpage then that's all they'll ever 
  want...
  

Re: [WSG] reply from ACA

[Ryan Christie]

Damn man... I haven't laughed so hard in quite awhile.
For christsake -- someone please get the Australian .gov's to validate 
proper.
There's an army of you guys over there. Makes me want to pack my bags 
and jet :)

(and, I loved this guy's grammar and spelling.)

-Ryan

Neerav wrote:

The following line from the ACA's source code explains most of the 
problem:


and the less said about their "accessible sitemap" at 
http://www.aca.gov.au/help/sitemap.htm (a mess of table cells and font 
tags) the better

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Trouble with safari

[Sarah Sammis]

On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 23:54 US/Pacific, russ - maxdesign wrote:

Be more specific please. What is problem?
Russ

There is no visible navigation in Safari.

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] reply from ACA

[Miles Tillinger]

Seems 
like they glazed over when reading the accessibility information in your 
original email.  This is all to familiar for me as there are ppl you can 
explain the benefits of standards to 10x a day and they still forget what 
it all means by the next day...  In most cases if it's a small site then 
the person maintaining it is probably not very web-savvy and probably knows 
little or nothing of the HTML/CSS that formats the site behind the scenes.  
As long as they can publish content with Frontpage then that's all they'll ever 
want...

  -Original Message-From: Universal Head 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 2:04 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] reply from 
  ACA
  You all might be interested in the reply I received from the ACA in 
  response to my email. I leave it to speak for itself. 
  Peter 
  On 07/05/2004, at 2:21 PM, WebMaster wrote: 
  
Dear Mr 
Gifford, 
 Pleqase accept my 
apologies for the delay in respond to your email. 
We are aware of some 
issues with the use of the ACA Website and Apple operating systems and 
are currently working on a fix to the solution. Unfortunately this would 
appear not to be a simple solution and therefore may take some 
time. 
As I'm sure you can 
appreciate maintaining a site that renders well in all browser and operating 
systems is a constant battle for the ACA, however we do endeavour to provide 
equal access to all users. 
It may be of some 
benefit for you to access our site map at (http://www.aca.gov.au/help/sitemap.htm), which will provide you with static html links to all 
pages. 
Regards 

Sheila 
Grant 
Web 
Administrator 
Information Management 
Team 
Australian 
Communications Authority  
  
  Universal 
  Head  
  Design That Works. 
  7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore 
  NSW 2048 Australia 
  T (+612) 9517 1466 
  F (+612) 9565 4747 
  E [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  W www.universalhead.com 
  

Re: [WSG] reply from ACA

[Neerav]

The following line from the ACA's source code explains most of the problem:

and the less said about their "accessible sitemap" at 
http://www.aca.gov.au/help/sitemap.htm (a mess of table cells and font 
tags) the better

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
Universal Head wrote:
You all might be interested in the reply I received from the ACA in 
response to my email. I leave it to speak for itself.
Peter

On 07/05/2004, at 2:21 PM, WebMaster wrote:

Dear Mr Gifford,
 Pleqase accept my apologies for the delay in respond to your email.
We are aware of some issues with the use of the ACA Website and
Apple operating systems and are currently working on a fix to the
solution. Unfortunately this would appear not to be a simple
solution and therefore may take some time.
As I'm sure you can appreciate maintaining a site that renders well
in all browser and operating systems is a constant battle for the
ACA, however we do endeavour to provide equal access to all users.
It may be of some benefit for you to access our site map at
(http://www.aca.gov.au/help/sitemap.htm), which will provide you
with static html links to all pages.
Regards
/Sheila Grant/
/Web Administrator/
/Information Management Team/
/Australian Communications Authority/ 

*Universal Head* 
Design That Works.

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T (+612) 9517 1466
F (+612) 9565 4747
E [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W www.universalhead.com
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] reply from ACA

[Universal Head]

You all might be interested in the reply I received from the ACA in response to my email. I leave it to speak for itself.
Peter


On 07/05/2004, at 2:21 PM, WebMaster wrote:

Dear Mr Gifford,
 Pleqase accept my apologies for the delay in respond to your email.

We are aware of some issues with the use of the ACA Website and Apple operating systems and are currently working on a fix to the solution. Unfortunately this would appear not to be a simple solution and therefore may take some time.

As I'm sure you can appreciate maintaining a site that renders well in all browser and operating systems is a constant battle for the ACA, however we do endeavour to provide equal access to all users.

It may be of some benefit for you to access our site map at (), which will provide you with static html links to all pages.
Regards
Sheila Grant 
Web Administrator 
Information Management Team 
Australian Communications Authority 

Universal Head 
Design That Works.

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T	(+612) 9517 1466
F	(+612) 9565 4747
E	[EMAIL PROTECTED]
W	www.universalhead.com

Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG... MOVED TO DISCUSSION ROOM

[russ - maxdesign]

This thread has now been moved to the discussion room. Add comments as you
wish:
http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/15.htm

Please do not reply to this thread on list
Thanks
Russ




> I use RealObjects eoPro.
> 
> It produces decent valid XHTML code.
> 
> http://www.realobjects.com/edit-on_Pro_3_x_2_x.435.0.html
> 
> but its not free! ;-)
> 
> Gav
> 

The Australian Museum.
Australia's first - and leading - natural sciences and anthropology
museum. Visit www.amonline.net.au

The views in this email are those of the user and do not necessarily
reflect the views of the Australian Museum. The information contained in
this email message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential
and is for the intended recipient only. If you are not the intended
recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or
copying of this email or any attached files is unauthorised. If you are
not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify the sender.The
Australian Museum does not guarantee the accuracy of any information
contained in this e-mail or attached files. As Internet communications
are not secure, the Australian Museum does not accept legal
responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files.

Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[Gavin Cooney]

I use RealObjects eoPro. 

It produces decent valid XHTML code. 

http://www.realobjects.com/edit-on_Pro_3_x_2_x.435.0.html

but its not free! ;-)

Gav

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WSG (E-mail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:26 PM
Subject: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor


> Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?
> 
> Thk
> 
> David Gironella Casademont
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> * 
> 
> 
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[Vlad Alexander \(XStandard\)]

Hi David,

One way to pick the right editor for your needs is to go to the Web sites of
WYSIWYG vendors and check the quality of the code they generate for their
own Web site. If their Web pages aren't validating with W3C to the standard
you need to meet, then their WYSIWYG editor won't do the job for you. Here
is the link to the W3C validator:

http://validator.w3.org/

Regards,
-Vlad
XStandard Development Team
http://xstandard.com


- Original Message -
From: "David Gironella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WSG (E-mail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 6:26 AM
Subject: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor


> Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?
>
> Thk
>
> David Gironella Casademont
>
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> *
>
>


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] please help

[Benjamin]

have you tried using a clearing div

#cDiv{
   clear: left;
}



put this below your mast div

> 
> Hi Russ,
> At your recommendation i made my layout simple.
> It now works in ie4 and up. Thank you very much.
> However the image in the div "mast" dosnt show up in netscape,  can
you tell 
> me why?
> I've encluded most of the style sheet in this email.
> Nearly there.
> -Kevin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BODY {
> marging: 0 0;
>   background: #f4f2ea url(rightback.jpg)  repeat-x top left;
>   font-family: verdana, geneva, arial;
>   text-decoration:none;
>   font-size:90%;
>   height: 433px;
>   text-align:left;
> 
> p {
> width: 300px;
> background-color: #e8e8e8;
> text-align: left;
> font-family: verdana, geneva, arial;
> font-size:90%;
> color: #00;
> line-height: 1.3em;}
> 
> 
> #mast {
> position: absolute;
> margin: 0;
> left: 5%;
> top: 0px;
> width: 630px;
> height: 400;
> background: url(id.jpg) no-repeat top left;
> background-color: #cfd8e0;
> }
> 
> #left {
> position: absolute;
> top: 0px;
> left: 0px;
> width: 6%;
> height: 500;
> background: url(leftback.jpg) repeat-x top left;
> }
> 
> _
> Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers!
http://youroffers.msn.com
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> * 
> 
> 
> 

Benjamin
Life through a polaroid

www.lifethroughapolaroid.com
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Removing bullets

[Benjamin]

#menu ul{
   list-style: none none;
}

> Hi guys ,,
> 
> I have contructed this navigation bar --> 
> http://simondodson.com/nav2.html and im having trouble removing the 
> bullet points from the list ...
> 
> any help would be great !!!.
> 
> Cheers
> Simon Dodson
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> * 
> 
> 
> 

Benjamin
Life through a polaroid

www.lifethroughapolaroid.com
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Removing bullets

[James Ellis]

ul { list-style-type : none }
Cheers
James
simon wrote:
Hi guys ,,
I have contructed this navigation bar --> 
http://simondodson.com/nav2.html and im having trouble removing the 
bullet points from the list ...

any help would be great !!!.
Cheers
Simon Dodson
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Removing bullets

[Kay Smoljak]

Hi Simon,

>I have contructed this navigation bar --> 
>http://simondodson.com/nav2.html and im having trouble removing the 
>bullet points from the list ...

You need the list-style:none to be on the li - ie "#menu li" rather than "#menu a". 
List-style is not a property of an anchor tag.

HTH,
K.

--
Kay Smoljak
http://kay.smoljak.com
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Removing bullets

[Jake Badger]

The list-style-type: none; needs to be on the LI not on the a. You 
need something like:
#menu li {
list-style: none;
}

J.
> Hi guys ,,
> 
> I have contructed this navigation bar --> 
> http://simondodson.com/nav2.html and im having trouble removing the 
> bullet points from the list ...
> 
> any help would be great !!!.
> 
> Cheers
> Simon Dodson
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> * 
> 
> 
> 


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Next IE version coming soon?

[Andrew Krespanis]

This "new version" they speak of raises an interesting question...
Lets say hypothetically that there are a number of CSS related improvements 
(even though Scoble makes no mention of such), should we, as developers, 
upgrade straight away?

Personally, I'm a little sceptical of replacing IE6 on my machine and no 
longer being able to test on the current one as the uptake for SP2 amongst 
the average user will probably be quite slow.
So will it be possible to make a "standalone" version of IE6 sp1? Then 
there's the "i don't trust it" factor that has been widely publicised 
regarding the standalone versions of IE 5 and 5.5.

I think I'll wait and see what differences the new one has before I consider 
upgrading...

Andrew Krespanis.
_
Personalise your mobile chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to  
http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] Removing bullets

[simon]

Hi guys ,,
I have contructed this navigation bar --> 
http://simondodson.com/nav2.html and im having trouble removing the 
bullet points from the list ...

any help would be great !!!.
Cheers
Simon Dodson
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] please help

[Kevin McMonagle]

Hi Russ,
At your recommendation i made my layout simple.
It now works in ie4 and up. Thank you very much.
However the image in the div "mast" dosnt show up in netscape,  can you tell 
me why?
I've encluded most of the style sheet in this email.
Nearly there.
-Kevin




BODY {
marging: 0 0;
background: #f4f2ea url(rightback.jpg)  repeat-x top left;
font-family: verdana, geneva, arial;
text-decoration:none;
font-size:90%;
height: 433px;
text-align:left;
p {
width: 300px;
background-color: #e8e8e8;
text-align: left;
font-family: verdana, geneva, arial;
font-size:90%;
color: #00;
line-height: 1.3em;}
#mast {
position: absolute;
margin: 0;
left: 5%;
top: 0px;
width: 630px;
height: 400;
background: url(id.jpg) no-repeat top left;
background-color: #cfd8e0;
}
#left {
position: absolute;
top: 0px;
left: 0px;
width: 6%;
height: 500;
background: url(leftback.jpg) repeat-x top left;
}
_
Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://youroffers.msn.com
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[Kay Smoljak]

>I don't see the confusion. The post asked about a WYSIWYG editor the
>generates XHTML and CSS, not component that integrates with a Web app.

The same poster clarified in the third post in the thread with:

> but to edit documents on the web 

I just thought I'd point out the distinction, as one poster mentioned XStandard and 
TopStyle in the same message, as though they were equivalent.

K.
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[mario]

I don't see the confusion. The post asked about a WYSIWYG editor the
generates XHTML and CSS, not component that integrates with a Web app.

MC



>> Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?
>
> I think there's some confusion here - the original poster was enquiring
> about a browser-based xhtml component that can be added to a web
> application. That's what XStandard, htmlarea (works on mozilla too -
> http://dynarch.com/mishoo/htmlarea.epl) etc are for.
>
> A different beast is a desktop xhtml editor for use by developers, such
> as DWMX, GoLive, TopStyle etc.
>
> K.
>
> --
> Kay Smoljak
> http://kay.smoljak.com
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> *



*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[Kay Smoljak]

> Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?

I think there's some confusion here - the original poster was enquiring about a 
browser-based xhtml component that can be added to a web application. That's what 
XStandard, htmlarea (works on mozilla too - http://dynarch.com/mishoo/htmlarea.epl) 
etc are for. 

A different beast is a desktop xhtml editor for use by developers, such as DWMX, 
GoLive, TopStyle etc.

K.

--
Kay Smoljak
http://kay.smoljak.com
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Question on javascript

[Chris Blown]

>From my experience using javascript, as Mark says, go with the DOM.

We've had good success with complex form interaction using DOM /
javascript. These interfaces work on almost every browser apart the
grumpy old bunch. 

Being an admin type interface we detect old browsers and politely ask
them to upgrade, offering some of the benefits. Surprisingly most people
upgrade when provided a link.

Regards
Chris Blown
http://hinterlands.com.au 

On Thu, 2004-05-06 at 09:19, Mark Stanton wrote:
> I agree with Ryan - coding for specific browsers is a futile excerise.
> 
> We do use javascript quite a bit but its usually to provide additional
> funcitonality to users who are able to handle it. The empahsis is on
> people still being able to use the site without javascript. This could
> include things like having the text "search" inside a search box, but
> then removing it when the user clicks into the search box or providing
> tree style navigation.
> 
> Javascript is ok, but must be used with care. I think the best
> approach is to aim at the DOM & ECMA standards (O'Reilly have a great
> book on this) and not getting trapped into browser specific or IE only
> scripting.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mark
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> * 
> 
> 
> 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] Forms, labels & headers

[Bert Doorn]

Hi Jack

> I have a huge form page https://www.willtrav.com/form-corp-profile.php
> that uses table headers to define the text boxes
> and how do I or should I  include labels on those
> text boxes?

I haven't looked at the page, but from your description it sounds like you
are doing what I have been doing for years.  Russ (maxdesign) suggested I
used fieldset (and label).  An example of how I did it can be found at
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/request-quote.asp - may give you some
ideas.

I set up the  element in my CSS to have a fixed width and float left.

Russ's example was http://www.amonline.net.au/sand/using/survey.htm

Between the two of them, perhaps you will find something useful.

Regards
-- 
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
www.betterwebdesign.com.au
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites



*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen]

The voices are telling me that David Gironella said on 5/6/2004 5:26 AM:
Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?
Whenever I need to slam some text and pictures into a page, I use 
Amaya .  It used to be real flaky, but 
it's been a lot more solid in the past 6 months or so.  Floats still 
give it fits sometimes.  But the quality of XHTML it produces is, 
imho, very good.  When I take it into TopStyle Pro and run Tidy on 
it, Tidy doesn't have to do very much.  And at least it doesn't 
molest existing XHTML like the old-timey editors do.

Btw, WYSIWYG and XHTML + CSS is kind of an oxymoron, isn't it?  You 
want clean, valid semantic markup that you can style any way you 
want to.  It never turns out exactly that way -- the styles do feed 
back into the document content -- but you can get pretty close, and 
having a good process like one recommended here not long ago:
 will help you 
avoid some iterations on that theme and start off a little smarter 
than you did the last time.
--
Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen
bob at crispen dot org
Ex Cathedra Weblog: http://blog.crispen.org/

Some people just don't know how to drive... I call these people
"Everybody But Me"
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[Ray Cauchi]

www.ektron.com
EwebEditPro (esp. the XML version). Rocks hard.
Ray
At 08:26 PM 6/05/2004, you wrote:
Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor
but that generate XHTML with CSS?
Thk
David Gironella Casademont
*
The discussion list for
http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 


Best Regards
Ray Cauchi
Manager/Lead Developer


( T W E E K ! )
PO Box 468 Katoomba NSW
Australia 2780
p: +61 2 4757 1600
f: +61 2 4757 3808
m: 0414 270 400
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w:
www.tweek.com.au

Re: [WSG] Next IE version coming soon?

[Michael Donnermeyer]

Standards-complaint based on their own distorted view of what the 
standards are, of course.

While I would love to see something come out of Redmond that actually 
works, I doubt it'll be what we need/think/want.  It would make life 
easier, but I'm not going to keep my hopes up.  We've seen M$'s ideas 
of standards compliance before.

MD
On May 5, 2004, at 10:02, Tonico Strasser wrote:
http://radio.weblogs.com/0001011/2004/05/04.html#a7387
Robert Scoble writes:
While we're on it, this page has one falsehood. It says that the next 
version of Internet Explorer won't come out until Longhorn. That is 
absolutely NOT true. The next version of Internet Explorer comes with 
a ton of security fixes, and a pop-up-ad blocker. It will be included 
in Windows XP, Service Pack 2. For free.

Hm, will they make it more standards compliant as well? Will it work 
in older versions of Windows?

Tonico
--
Tonico Strasser ?:-)
http://Tonico.FreeZope.org
Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de
Check out http://www.WebProducer.at
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Re: WYSIWYG editor

[Michael Donnermeyer]

I was at a 'Driven by Design' seminar Apple put on in Cincinnati Nov of 
last year and saw them demo the CS apps at the Adobe booth.

The guy from Adobe thought GoLive CS was it, kept asking 'can't do that 
with Dreamweaver can you?'  I refrained from disagreeing with him...I 
guess he hadn't seen the MX 2004 release that came out a week or two 
before that seminar.  Then again he also thought most developers won't 
hand code and that they'll love the Opera 7 based preview feature of 
GoLive.

MX 2004 is a great tool to have, but then again so is a basic text 
editor.  I'm torn (equally) between using MX or BBedit, just depends on 
my mood that day and the kind of site on what I'll use.

My view on the original question:  There's no really good option yet 
for a WYSIWYG editor, but Dreamweaver does the best job right now based 
on what you've got to choose from.

MD
On May 6, 2004, at 13:40, theGrafixGuy wrote:
Dreamweaver MX 2k4 is definitely at the top o' the heap - one tool to 
build
ANYTHING - java, css, html, xhtml, php, asp, cfm, etc etc etc.

Can't go wrong there and for those that need it the wysiwyg feature 
can be
turned on easily.

I will say GoLive CS was a surprise though in its improvement, but it 
still
isn't at the level of DW.

Brian Grimmer
theGrafixGuy
http://www.thegrafixguy.com
503-887-4943
925-226-4085 (fax)
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:04 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: WYSIWYG editor

I respectfully disagree. Dreamweaver MX 2004 enables a designer to 
create
well formed and valid XHTML. In addition, it has a built-in XHTML
validator to check for poor syntax.

Also, it's upgraded CSS panel produces valid style sheets, and often
creates style sheets automatically in conjunction with XHTML.
Kind regards,
Mario S. Cisneros

Dreamweaver is like kills ants with a machine gun. This app is 
excelent
to  edit nested tables, but thing like tableless it not so god -- We 
had
using  him practiclly like Homesite to had some markup control.

WYSIWYG editor to XHTML/CSS is unnecessary, I suppose. At last, if 
among
 browser had yours particularities to render XHTML/CSS, a visual 
editor
had  yours particularities too.

XHTML Strict/1.1 had a coerent structure, is simple to edit in your
favorite ASCII editor. And CSS by TopStyle is very productive.
At 20:56 6/5/2004 +1000, simon dodson wrote:
dreamweaver mx ? www.macromedia.com
From: "David Gironella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] Re: list 'buttons' in IE

[east]

Barbara Dozetos:  try adding border:1px solid #f0e7d7; to ul.navlist li
like so: 

ul.navlist li {
display: block;
margin: 0%;
padding: 0px;
border:1px solid #f0e7d7;
} 

On 07/05/2004, at 1:07 AM, Barbara Dozetos wrote: 

Hi folks -- 

I asked about this yesterday, but got no response.  In the hopes that my 
question got lost in the crowd, I'm trying again. 

In IE, my list buttons are showing up with padding that I don't want, 
due, I believe to if/else statements in the coding.  As you can see from 
this page: http://www.pcc.com/benchmark/clinical.html  IE adds space I 
don't want.  It works fine in FF.  Any ideas?
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] list 'buttons' in IE

[barbarad]

You're not seeing the left hand nav as a list that looks like buttons?  I've
checked this on Safari.  Please send a screen shot if you can.

Thanks

Barb

Quoting s2art <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


> >
> Sorry Barb, on Safari 1.2 no list buttons here?
> 
> A. top posters.
> 
> Q. What is one of the most annoying facets of e-mail forums?
> ~~
> s2art
> http://stunik.com/bb04/
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> * 
> 
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Question on javascript

[Mordechai Peller]

Jack Kennard wrote:
I notice there are a lot of sites in this group, that are using 
javascript.
Are they mostly for determining browsers and then redirecting,
or ?

As others have suggested, building pages for individual browsers should 
generally be avoided. However, on those occasions where browser sniffing 
is needed, JavaScript is NOT the way to go. Unless you can control your 
user's environment, JavaScript shouldn't be relied upon.

A much better solution is to handle it server side. One simple reason 
(but far from the one) is that no browser is required to support 
JavaScript (either by design or through user choice), but they are 
required to support HTTP. While the browser can lie, it has to tell you 
something about the user agent.
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] list 'buttons' in IE

[s2art]

On 07/05/2004, at 1:07 AM, Barbara Dozetos wrote:
Hi folks --
I asked about this yesterday, but got no response.  In the hopes that 
my question got lost in the crowd, I'm trying again.

In IE, my list buttons are showing up with padding that I don't want, 
due, I believe to if/else statements in the coding.  As you can see 
from this page: http://www.pcc.com/benchmark/clinical.html  IE adds 
space I don't want.  It works fine in FF.  Any ideas?

Barb
Sorry Barb, on Safari 1.2 no list buttons here?
A. top posters.
Q. What is one of the most annoying facets of e-mail forums?
~~
s2art
http://stunik.com/bb04/
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] Forms, labels & headers

[Jack Kennard]

I have a huge form page
https://www.willtrav.com/form-corp-profile.php
that uses table headers to define the text boxes
and how do I or should I  include labels on those
text boxes?
--
Jack Kennard
Web Designer & Marketing
dba/ Web Sailing Designs
http://www.websailingdesigns.com
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad

[Tonico Strasser]

Patrick Griffiths wrote:
 certainly isn't the way to go though with either argument - language
is supposed to be independent of presentation, be it visual or aural or
whatever.
HTML 3.2 was not supposed to be independent [1], XHTML 2 should be 
independent and HTML4.1/XHMTL 1 is in between, I think.

What if the biologists that be decided to change the way this was
normally presented? What if it was deemed to be better to be in bold
rather than italics? Your HTML would then be semantically incorrect.
Hypothetical, but logical.
I prefer to think practical :)
I think it's right to completely separate meaning and presentation and I
think it's right to deprecate i.
Until it's not deprecated you can use it as a schortcut for zZz. (Sure, only if you don't want to 
change the style later.)

XHTML 2 will not be backwards compatible anyway.
[1] 
Tonico
--
Tonico Strasser ?:-)
http://Tonico.FreeZope.org
Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de
Check out http://www.WebProducer.at
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad

[Kristof Neirynck]

Manuel González Noriega wrote:
i want to comment on Matthew Thomas' 'When semantic markup goes bad'
http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2004/05/02/b-and-i
The way i see it, if you need an new html element that is not available,
you use 'span+appropiate identifier' 
[snip]
The article isn't about "keep using b and i".
It's about using the right tag for the job.
He speaks about these tags too:
* cite,
* dfn,
* samp,
* var.
Those are sometimes forgotten.
I sympathize with Matthews view.
b and i have their place.
IMHO I don't see what would be wrong with:
R2
If and only if all these are true:
* You think a "vector" is something special;
* There is no vector-tag;
* Vectors are usually written in bold.
Your stylesheet doesn't change:
.vector{
  font-weight: bold;
}
And if the b tag is deprecated you just use a regular expression to 
change each b-tag to a span tag.

Remember that stylesheets add something for those browsers that support 
them. You should write your (x)html in such a way that the stylesheet 
isn't needed to understand the content.

All of the above is IMHO.
--
Kristof
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

RE: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad

[Iain Gardiner]

Hi guys, my first post,  :>

Patrick, while I largely agree with the whole separating content from
presentation argument (I try as best I can to adhere to XHTML 1.1 whenever I
can) I do find the case for the  tag compelling. Mainly this is because
it all comes down to the fact that you are simply marking up a section of
text as being italicised.  It's far better than writing out something like
 as one would have done in the bad, bad, BAD old days,
and to my mind it's more desirable than writing  which takes up 28 more characters than it needs to.
(X)HTML is a *markup* language so marking it up as italicised is fulfilling
the function of that language.  Just my two cents.

I thankee,

Iain

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Griffiths
Sent: 06 May 2004 18:03
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really
bad


> Absolutely! In natural science (specifically speaking about species
names
> here) Italics are the way to present the scientific name (genus
species pair
> or "senior synonym"  like Thorunna australis or even just the
species
> or shorthand variations), not "emphasis". I think there is a good
argument
> for using  here as it isn't ambiguous in any way that I want
italics. In
> this case  is just semantically wrong and  simply should not be 
> deprecated.

Hmm. This is a difficult one. I think it could be argued that this is
emphasis. In this case you are emphasising the species by displaying it in
italics.

 certainly isn't the way to go though with either argument - language is
supposed to be independent of presentation, be it visual or aural or
whatever.

What if the biologists that be decided to change the way this was normally
presented? What if it was deemed to be better to be in bold rather than
italics? Your HTML would then be semantically incorrect. Hypothetical, but
logical.

I think it's right to completely separate meaning and presentation and I
think it's right to deprecate i.



Patrick Griffiths (PTG)
 http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/
 http://www.htmldog.com


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 



*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

RE: [WSG] Re: WYSIWYG editor

[theGrafixGuy]

Dreamweaver MX 2k4 is definitely at the top o' the heap - one tool to build
ANYTHING - java, css, html, xhtml, php, asp, cfm, etc etc etc.

Can't go wrong there and for those that need it the wysiwyg feature can be
turned on easily.

I will say GoLive CS was a surprise though in its improvement, but it still
isn't at the level of DW.

 
Brian Grimmer
 
theGrafixGuy
http://www.thegrafixguy.com 
503-887-4943
925-226-4085 (fax)
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:04 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: WYSIWYG editor

I respectfully disagree. Dreamweaver MX 2004 enables a designer to create
well formed and valid XHTML. In addition, it has a built-in XHTML
validator to check for poor syntax.

Also, it's upgraded CSS panel produces valid style sheets, and often
creates style sheets automatically in conjunction with XHTML.

Kind regards,
Mario S. Cisneros


> Dreamweaver is like kills ants with a machine gun. This app is excelent
> to  edit nested tables, but thing like tableless it not so god -- We had
> using  him practiclly like Homesite to had some markup control.
>
> WYSIWYG editor to XHTML/CSS is unnecessary, I suppose. At last, if among
>  browser had yours particularities to render XHTML/CSS, a visual editor
> had  yours particularities too.
>
> XHTML Strict/1.1 had a coerent structure, is simple to edit in your
> favorite ASCII editor. And CSS by TopStyle is very productive.
>
>
> At 20:56 6/5/2004 +1000, simon dodson wrote:
>>dreamweaver mx ? www.macromedia.com
>>
>>From: "David Gironella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>  Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?
>
>
>
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> *



*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 



*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad

[Patrick Griffiths]

> Absolutely! In natural science (specifically speaking about species
names
> here) Italics are the way to present the scientific name (genus
species pair
> or "senior synonym"  like Thorunna australis or even just the
species
> or shorthand variations), not "emphasis". I think there is a good
argument
> for using  here as it isn't ambiguous in any way that I want
italics. In
> this case  is just semantically wrong and  simply should not be
> deprecated.

Hmm. This is a difficult one. I think it could be argued that this is
emphasis. In this case you are emphasising the species by displaying it
in italics.

 certainly isn't the way to go though with either argument - language
is supposed to be independent of presentation, be it visual or aural or
whatever.

What if the biologists that be decided to change the way this was
normally presented? What if it was deemed to be better to be in bold
rather than italics? Your HTML would then be semantically incorrect.
Hypothetical, but logical.

I think it's right to completely separate meaning and presentation and I
think it's right to deprecate i.



Patrick Griffiths (PTG)
 http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/
 http://www.htmldog.com


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad

[Manuel González Noriega]

El jue, 06-05-2004 a las 18:08, Peter Firminger escribió:
> > I'm sure lot's of people probably use  when they aren't really
> > emphasising something, but simply wanting to make something italic.
> 
> Absolutely! In natural science (specifically speaking about species names
> here) Italics are the way to present the scientific name (genus species pair
> or "senior synonym"  like Thorunna australis or even just the species
> or shorthand variations), not "emphasis". I think there is a good argument
> for using  here as it isn't ambiguous in any way that I want italics. In
> this case  is just semantically wrong and  simply should not be
> deprecated.
> 

I'm sure there are times when i is the right element to use, but your
example is not one :)

If the markup means 'look, this is a genus species pair', please make it
tell so:

1) Thorunna Australis
2) Thorunna Australis
3) Thorunna Australis


1) is not available to current browsers without involving extra
technology 
2) is nice, clean and optimal in the current day and time.
3) is pretty useless

> 
> But in most cases we certainly don't need this as we are marking up text for
> the sake of displaying text, not extraction for any other reason by any
> other agent. The extra bytes are a total waste of bandwidth and when you get
> to heavily used repositories of text-based factsheets like
> http://amonline.net.au/fishes/fishfacts/specfam.htm or
> http://seaslugforum.net/species.htm it can make quite a difference in speed
> and money.

First, i don't think we should discuss specific cases. If you need to
save bandwith by using i instead of span.class, it's entirely up you of
course. We're talking general principles/best practices

I don't think (given that we are using clean, well marked code) that
there's a clear and present global need for saving bandwith by switching
from span.class

 
>- 
Manuel trabaja para Simplelógica, construcción web
(+34) 985 22 12 65 http://simplelogica.net 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

Re: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad

[Manuel González Noriega]

El jue, 06-05-2004 a las 17:30, Andy Budd escribió:
> I think the article seems reasonable.

I do not but that's a matter of opinion of course :)

> Some people would argue that what you should do is wrap the element in 
> a span, create a class and then style the class in the stylesheets. 
> This is reasonable if the class has some meaning (e.g. author). However 
> most people would just create a class called italic. By doing this, you 
> are no longer really separating presentation from structure, so why not 
> use ?

Well it's pretty tricky picking between two wrongs but i'd say wrong
named classes are much less serious than wrongfully marked elements. 


> I think it's very good practice to code semantically. However I often 
> find myself creating a class solely to position an element (float it 
> left lest say). I usually try to give the element some semantic meaning 
> (like col1) however it's always tempting to simply go for the easy 
> option of floatLeft.

Are you saying that we are all guilty of laziness once or twice in a
while and that we don't follow good practices all of the time? Boy, i'm
glad  i'm not the only one ;) Still, i don't think that's quite the same
than writing a post about using an element in a way that's not the way
it should be used.
 
> Whereas I can see a good reason to use semantic HTML, is there really 
> much point in worrying if your ID's/classes have semantic meaning. 
> Becasue they are user defined, there probably is never going to be a 
> time when that information will be used by another machine.
> 

Personally, i do it because i was told me girls dig semantic coding. You
mean they don't?

Seriously, the issue of relevant class/ID naming is interesting and
important but Matthew proposes a whole different (and IMHO wrong) thing



-- 
Manuel trabaja para Simplelógica, construcción web
(+34) 985 22 12 65 http://simplelogica.net 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

RE: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad

[Peter Firminger]

> I'm sure lot's of people probably use  when they aren't really
> emphasising something, but simply wanting to make something italic.

Absolutely! In natural science (specifically speaking about species names
here) Italics are the way to present the scientific name (genus species pair
or "senior synonym"  like Thorunna australis or even just the species
or shorthand variations), not "emphasis". I think there is a good argument
for using  here as it isn't ambiguous in any way that I want italics. In
this case  is just semantically wrong and  simply should not be
deprecated.

There may be an argument for an xml structure here though:


Thorunna
australis


But in most cases we certainly don't need this as we are marking up text for
the sake of displaying text, not extraction for any other reason by any
other agent. The extra bytes are a total waste of bandwidth and when you get
to heavily used repositories of text-based factsheets like
http://amonline.net.au/fishes/fishfacts/specfam.htm or
http://seaslugforum.net/species.htm it can make quite a difference in speed
and money.

A random example http://seaslugforum.net/thoraust.htm shows how many times
species names can appear in a fact sheet (this is one of the shorter ones
and yes we are currently rebuilding this overgrown and complex data-driven
site so no comments please) and it also shows the scientific requirement for
italics in citations, but that's another argument entirely.

P


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad

[P.H.Lauke]

> -Original Message-
> From: Andy Budd
[snip]
> Whereas I can see a good reason to use semantic HTML, is there really 
> much point in worrying if your ID's/classes have semantic meaning. 
> Becasue they are user defined, there probably is never going to be a 
> time when that information will be used by another machine.


I haven't read the article in question yet, but this just caught my eye...
A fair point, but in my mind it makes sense to still keep IDs/classes semantic,
mainly for your own sake as a developer, and to make things easier to maintain
in future.
An example: when I first started in this job, I went through all the code
left by my predecessor. She had obviously dabbled with CSS, but obviously not
understood the idea of separation of content and presentation at all, leading to
wonderful things like

blah

with

.redlink { color: red; }

This was all fine and dandy...until the corporate identity guidelines changed and
all links needed to be make green instead of red. As a quick fix, I did

.redlink { color: green; }

Great...so now I had a class "redlink" making things green. Intuitive...
I ended up simplifying the entire CSS anyway, removing the need for any such classes
in most cases, but if I hadn't, I would have had to go through the entire site and
find/replace redlink with greenlink or something as well...

Same with things like "floatLeft"...what if you later decide that you don't want
to float it at all? Heck, even "col1" does imply that it's one of many columns...what 
if
you later redo the whole CSS and the whole block is on its own, i.e. not a column 
anymore?

As always, every web developer needs to get a clear idea of how far down the 
"eradication
of presentational markup and IDs/classnames" they want to go. Often I do make hard and 
fast
calls about certain class names, for instance, when I know that a page is only going 
to be
needed for a few months or something. For longer term pages and site sections, I try a 
bit
harder to keep the content as presentation-agnostic as possible, classnames and all...

My GBP0.02 anyway,

Patrick
p.s.: and now I'll go off and read the article, to see if I'm now wildly off topic

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

Re: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad

[Andy Budd]

I think the article seems reasonable.
I'm sure lot's of people probably use  when they aren't really 
emphasising something, but simply wanting to make something italic.

Some people would argue that what you should do is wrap the element in 
a span, create a class and then style the class in the stylesheets. 
This is reasonable if the class has some meaning (e.g. author). However 
most people would just create a class called italic. By doing this, you 
are no longer really separating presentation from structure, so why not 
use ?

I think it's very good practice to code semantically. However I often 
find myself creating a class solely to position an element (float it 
left lest say). I usually try to give the element some semantic meaning 
(like col1) however it's always tempting to simply go for the easy 
option of floatLeft.

Whereas I can see a good reason to use semantic HTML, is there really 
much point in worrying if your ID's/classes have semantic meaning. 
Becasue they are user defined, there probably is never going to be a 
time when that information will be used by another machine.


Hi,
i want to comment on Matthew Thomas' 'When semantic markup goes bad'
http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2004/05/02/b-and-i
Basically, i think his main thesis is plain wrong
I think Matthew is pointing out that many people are using (or 
suggesting)  where  (or a styled ) would be better. 
He doesn't say that you must use  but explains why this element is 
in the specs.

Strictly spoken,  is purely presentational and should not replace 
an apropriate semantic tag (e.g. a headline), OTOH foo is a lot of code compared to bar. Both 
elements are semantically neutral.
Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad

[Manuel González Noriega]

El jue, 06-05-2004 a las 15:58, Tonico Strasser escribió:

> 
> I think Matthew is pointing out that many people are using (or 
> suggesting)  where  (or a styled ) would be better. He 
> doesn't say that you must use  but explains why this element is in 
> the specs.

I think he's on with some kind of fallacy where if you agree that if you
agree that

1) strong and em generally supercede b and i

2) strong and em are used incorrectly sometimes 


(we're all ok with the argument to this point, methinks, but it's so
obvious it's pretty useless, everything is used incorrectly sometimes) 

then you must agree that

3) wherever strong and em are used incorrectly, b and i are to be used.


It's proposition 3) i have issues with. But it could be me having a bad
hair day ;)

OTOH  class="bold">foo is a lot of code compared to bar.

That's not fair, you are comparing bar to foo and everybody prefers a
bar over almost anything :D


-- 
Manuel trabaja para Simplelógica, construcción web
(+34) 985 22 12 65 http://simplelogica.net 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

[WSG] list 'buttons' in IE

[Barbara Dozetos]

Hi folks --
I asked about this yesterday, but got no response.  In the hopes that my 
question got lost in the crowd, I'm trying again.

In IE, my list buttons are showing up with padding that I don't want, 
due, I believe to if/else statements in the coding.  As you can see from 
this page: http://www.pcc.com/benchmark/clinical.html  IE adds space I 
don't want.  It works fine in FF.  Any ideas?

Barb
--
Barbara Dozetos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Physician's Computer CompanyMarketing Team
1 Main St., Ste 7   802-846-5532
Winooski, VT 05404
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Re: WYSIWYG editor

[mario]

I respectfully disagree. Dreamweaver MX 2004 enables a designer to create
well formed and valid XHTML. In addition, it has a built-in XHTML
validator to check for poor syntax.

Also, it's upgraded CSS panel produces valid style sheets, and often
creates style sheets automatically in conjunction with XHTML.

Kind regards,
Mario S. Cisneros


> Dreamweaver is like kills ants with a machine gun. This app is excelent
> to  edit nested tables, but thing like tableless it not so god -- We had
> using  him practiclly like Homesite to had some markup control.
>
> WYSIWYG editor to XHTML/CSS is unnecessary, I suppose. At last, if among
>  browser had yours particularities to render XHTML/CSS, a visual editor
> had  yours particularities too.
>
> XHTML Strict/1.1 had a coerent structure, is simple to edit in your
> favorite ASCII editor. And CSS by TopStyle is very productive.
>
>
> At 20:56 6/5/2004 +1000, simon dodson wrote:
>>dreamweaver mx ? www.macromedia.com
>>
>>From: "David Gironella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>  Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?
>
>
>
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> *



*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad

[Andrew Krespanis]

Manuel:
I'm glad you've raised this as I was of a very similar mind when I read the 
article. The examples you have provided, IMO, are generally a better and 
"safer" choice.
After all,  and  got the chop in HTML 4.0 (source: 
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/changes.html#h-A.3.1.2) so who's to 
say the same won't (or shouldn't) happen to  and 
It feels like just a matter of time...
Also, your alternate language example is bang on. That is one of the primary 
uses of lang, or xml:lang, or whatever. While the intentions of the article 
are good, the recommendations come off as a little backwards to me.

Andrew Krespanis.
_
Get Extra Storage in 10MB, 25MB, 50MB and 100MB options now! Go to  
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-au&page=hotmail/es2

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[Andrew Krespanis]

I have not yet tried out XStandard (tomorrow morning for sure ;), I can 
strongly recommend Nick Bradbury's TopStyle 3.
Very nice to use, has some great features such class attributes in xhtml 
become links on hover. When clicked, these links will open your css file and 
scroll directly to that class' declaration.
When you spend s many hours hand-coding, it's the little things that 
count.

Andrew.
_
SEEK: Now with over 50,000 dream jobs! Click here:  
http://ninemsn.seek.com.au?hotmail

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad

[Tonico Strasser]

Manuel GonzÃlez Noriega wrote:
Hi,
i want to comment on Matthew Thomas' 'When semantic markup goes bad'
http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2004/05/02/b-and-i
Basically, i think his main thesis is plain wrong

These arenât exhaustive lists, but as you can see, some reasons for
using bold and italics donât have their own semantic HTML elements. This
is why b and i exist
No, that's not why b and i exist. That's why span exists. 

The way i see it, if you need an new html element that is not available,
you use 'span+appropiate identifier' 

If you need a  element, you compensate for the lack of it with
R2 and then style it to bold. 

If you want to quote something on a foreign language and want it to
appear in italics, you don't (as MPT proposes) mark it up as mi mama
me mima, you mark it up with mi mama
me mima and then style it to your liking
If you have some time to read his post and comment on it, i'd really
appreciate it :-)
I think Matthew is pointing out that many people are using (or 
suggesting)  where  (or a styled ) would be better. He 
doesn't say that you must use  but explains why this element is in 
the specs.

Strictly spoken,  is purely presentational and should not replace an 
apropriate semantic tag (e.g. a headline), OTOH foo is a lot of code compared to bar. Both 
elements are semantically neutral.

Tonico
--
Tonico Strasser ?:-)
http://Tonico.FreeZope.org
Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de
Check out http://www.WebProducer.at
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[Vlad Alexander \(XStandard\)]

Hi Neerav,

Check out this article we are working on about WYSIWYGs and "dirty" markup:

http://xstandard.com/page.asp?p=58E6C3F7-E5DF-414F-8AA5-4C8BD2BEFE2A

Some things the article talks about will only be available in the next point
release of XStandard due out shortly, such as correct icons for the
blockquote toolbar buttons. Editors build around the MSHTML control (a
derivative of FrontPage) in IE are HTML 4 editors that use clean up routines
to achieve what looks like XHTML. XStandard was build specifically to be a
standards-compliant XHTML (Strict / 1.1) editor from the ground up.

Neerav, if you have some feedback on XStandard, we want to hear from you.
Virtually all the new features in the upcoming point release of the editor
are a result of feedback or feature requests. We also recently started a
forum on http://accessifyforum.com strictly for the purpose of improving the
accessibility of the markup XStandard generates - thanks to all the members
of AccessifyForum for constructive feedback.

Regards,
-Vlad
XStandard Development Team
http://xstandard.com



- Original Message -
From: "Neerav" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor


> While not enabled by default. you can set
> http://www.fredck.com/fckeditor/ to output XHTML and also use css
> styles. I found it easier to use than Vlads Xstandard
>
> --
> Neerav Bhatt
> http://www.bhatt.id.au
> Web Development & IT consultancy
>
> Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:
> > Hi David,
> >
> > Check out http://xstandard.com
> >
> > This is a XHTML (Strict or 1.1) WYSIWYG editor. It generates clean,
> > accessible and standards-compliant markup. Formatting is done through
> > external or embedded CSS.
> >
> > Regards,
> > -Vlad
> > XStandard Development Team
> > http://xstandard.com
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "David Gironella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "WSG (E-mail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 6:26 AM
> > Subject: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor
> >
> >
> >
> >>Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?
> >>
> >>Thk
> >>
> >>David Gironella Casademont
> >>
> >>*
> >>The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> >>See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> >>for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> >>*
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > *
> > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> > *
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> *
>
>


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[simon dodson]

Wow Vlad 

Thats looks like some seriously kewl software ...

Ill test drive it tomorrow ... 


 
- Original Message - 
From: "Vlad Alexander (XStandard)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor


> Hi David,
> 
> Check out http://xstandard.com
> 
> This is a XHTML (Strict or 1.1) WYSIWYG editor. It generates clean,
> accessible and standards-compliant markup. Formatting is done through
> external or embedded CSS.
> 
> Regards,
> -Vlad
> XStandard Development Team
> http://xstandard.com
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "David Gironella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WSG (E-mail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 6:26 AM
> Subject: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor
> 
> 
> > Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?
> >
> > Thk
> >
> > David Gironella Casademont
> >
> > *
> > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> > *
> >
> >
> 
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> * 
> 
> 
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad

[Manuel González Noriega]

Hi,

i want to comment on Matthew Thomas' 'When semantic markup goes bad'
http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2004/05/02/b-and-i

Basically, i think his main thesis is plain wrong


These aren’t exhaustive lists, but as you can see, some reasons for
using bold and italics don’t have their own semantic HTML elements. This
is why b and i exist

No, that's not why b and i exist. That's why span exists. 

The way i see it, if you need an new html element that is not available,
you use 'span+appropiate identifier' 

If you need a  element, you compensate for the lack of it with
R2 and then style it to bold. 

If you want to quote something on a foreign language and want it to
appear in italics, you don't (as MPT proposes) mark it up as mi mama
me mima, you mark it up with mi mama
me mima and then style it to your liking


If you have some time to read his post and comment on it, i'd really
appreciate it :-)



-- 
Manuel trabaja para Simplelógica, construcción web
(+34) 985 22 12 65 http://simplelogica.net 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[Neerav]

While not enabled by default. you can set 
http://www.fredck.com/fckeditor/ to output XHTML and also use css 
styles. I found it easier to use than Vlads Xstandard

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:
Hi David,
Check out http://xstandard.com
This is a XHTML (Strict or 1.1) WYSIWYG editor. It generates clean,
accessible and standards-compliant markup. Formatting is done through
external or embedded CSS.
Regards,
-Vlad
XStandard Development Team
http://xstandard.com
- Original Message -
From: "David Gironella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WSG (E-mail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 6:26 AM
Subject: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?
Thk
David Gironella Casademont
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[Vlad Alexander \(XStandard\)]

Hi David,

Check out http://xstandard.com

This is a XHTML (Strict or 1.1) WYSIWYG editor. It generates clean,
accessible and standards-compliant markup. Formatting is done through
external or embedded CSS.

Regards,
-Vlad
XStandard Development Team
http://xstandard.com


- Original Message -
From: "David Gironella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WSG (E-mail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 6:26 AM
Subject: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor


> Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?
>
> Thk
>
> David Gironella Casademont
>
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> *
>
>


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] Re: WYSIWYG editor

[Irapuan Martinez]

Dreamweaver is like kills ants with a machine gun. This app is excelent to 
edit nested tables, but thing like tableless it not so god -- We had using 
him practiclly like Homesite to had some markup control.

WYSIWYG editor to XHTML/CSS is unnecessary, I suppose. At last, if among 
browser had yours particularities to render XHTML/CSS, a visual editor had 
yours particularities too.

XHTML Strict/1.1 had a coerent structure, is simple to edit in your 
favorite ASCII editor. And CSS by TopStyle is very productive.

At 20:56 6/5/2004 +1000, simon dodson wrote:
dreamweaver mx ? www.macromedia.com
From: "David Gironella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[David Gironella]

but to edit documents on the web
Giro

-Mensaje original-
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de simon dodson
Enviado el: jueves, 06 de mayo de 2004 12:57
Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Asunto: Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor


dreamweaver mx ? www.macromedia.com
- Original Message - 
From: "David Gironella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WSG (E-mail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:26 PM
Subject: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor


> Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?
> 
> Thk
> 
> David Gironella Casademont
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> * 
> 
> 
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] Reminder about our first Brisbane WSG meeting - Wednesday 12 May

[russ weakley]

Wednesday 12 May
Guest Presenter: Tony Aslett (who built and runs, amongst other things, CSS Creator 
and CSS Layout Generator)- should be very exciting!

Peter and I will now definately be flying up for the meeting, so we'll hopefully see a 
lot of Brisbane WSG members on the night.

More info here:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event14.cfm

thanks
Russ

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[simon dodson]

dreamweaver mx ? www.macromedia.com
- Original Message - 
From: "David Gironella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WSG (E-mail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:26 PM
Subject: [WSG] WYSIWYG editor


> Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?
> 
> Thk
> 
> David Gironella Casademont
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> * 
> 
> 
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] WYSIWYG editor

[David Gironella]

Anybody know a WYSIWYG editor but that generate XHTML with CSS?

Thk

David Gironella Casademont

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Trouble with safari

[simon dodson]

arr thats great  thank you very much chris
- Original Message - 
From: "Chris Bentley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Trouble with safari


> Not sure what's happening. but when I delete the border-top property 
> from this rule the page behaves as expected in Safari.
> 
> #c {
> height: 400px;
> margin-left: 224px;
> background-color: #fff;
> /* border-top: 1px solid #537B8D; */
> }
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> chris
> 
> On 06/05/2004, at 5:15 PM, simon wrote:
> 
> > Well the nav bar in ie and firefox works fine .. However in safari the 
> > nav elements seem to be overlapping each other ... and i dont 
> > understand why.
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> * 
> 
> 
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] XHTML transitional is a half-way house [THREAD CLOSED]

[Peter Firminger]

Topic exhausted. Email me off list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) if you would like a
discussion page but I can't see the need. There is nothing left to say
without straying to a new topic. In which case, start a new thread please.

P


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Next IE version coming soon?

[Charles \"grey wolf\" Banas]

Tonico Strasser wrote:
Hm, will they make it more standards compliant as well?
from what i understand, yes.  it is supposedly going to be up on all the 
standards, with full support for XHTML/HTML, all the DOM specifications, 
and CSS level 3.  whether or not it happens is another issue.

> Will it work in older versions of Windows?

no.  Microsoft has stated _several_ times that IE 7 will be 
Longhorn-only and that they have no intention of _ever_ back-porting it.

--
-- Charles "grey wolf" Banas
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] XHTML transitional is a half-way house

[Patrick Griffiths]

>  I thought XHTML transitional _is_ XML. In what way is XHTML
>  transitional is a "less strict data format"?
> >>>
> >>> It's a transition. It's a half-way house between HTML 4 and XHTML
as
> > it
> >>> is intended (XHTML Strict).
> >
> >> No its not. There is no such thing as a half-way house between HTML
4
> >> and XHTML.
> >
> > Sure there is. That's what it's meant to be anyway. What else does
> > 'Transitional' mean? - It's a bridge between what people were used
to
> > to
> > something newer. Which is why it's the same as XHTML Strict, just
with
> > a
> > generous helping of 'old' elements to ease the transition.
> >
>
> What ever XHTML transitional it is, it is not a bridge or a half-way
> house between HTML4 and XHTML.
>
> I just googled "Choosing a doctype" and got this[1] excellent
article -
> here's a quote.
>
> "There seems to be a common misconception that the XHTML Transitional
> DOCTYPE is for developers to make a transition from HTML 4.01 to XHTML
> 1.0. It's utter nonsense, as the HTML 4.01 DTD and the XHTML 1.0 DTD
> are very similar in the rules they apply. The only difference is the
> well-formed issues that any XML application must adhere to, whether
> it's Transitional or Strict. So which is the better DOCTYPE? HTML 4.01
> Strict, or XHTML 1.0 Transitional? Without a shadow of a doubt, the
> HTML 4.01 Strict DOCTYPE is a far better than XHTML Transitional, as
it
> deprecates presentation elements such as font, and presentation
> attributes such as align. XHTML Transitional merely means you've
> ensured it's well formed."
>
> [1 ]http://www.juicystudio.com/choosing-doctype/
>
>

Of course the DTD's are different. I'm not saying that XHTML
Transitional is some kind of siamese HTML 4 / XHTML Strict. As has
already been stated, XHTML Transitional is, more or less, a
reformulation of HTML 4. But XHTML Strict is where XHTML is supposed to
be - cutting out the presentation and leaving just the structure.
As we're all such fans of semantics, just think about the word
'Transitional' - it means something between two things. A bridge. A half
way house.



Patrick Griffiths (PTG)
 http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/
 http://www.htmldog.com


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] XHTML transitional is a half-way house

[Chris Bentley]

I thought XHTML transitional _is_ XML. In what way is XHTML
transitional is a "less strict data format"?
It's a transition. It's a half-way house between HTML 4 and XHTML as
it
is intended (XHTML Strict).

No its not. There is no such thing as a half-way house between HTML 4
and XHTML.
Sure there is. That's what it's meant to be anyway. What else does
'Transitional' mean? - It's a bridge between what people were used to 
to
something newer. Which is why it's the same as XHTML Strict, just with 
a
generous helping of 'old' elements to ease the transition.

What ever XHTML transitional it is, it is not a bridge or a half-way 
house between HTML4 and XHTML.

I just googled "Choosing a doctype" and got this[1] excellent article - 
here's a quote.

"There seems to be a common misconception that the XHTML Transitional 
DOCTYPE is for developers to make a transition from HTML 4.01 to XHTML 
1.0. It's utter nonsense, as the HTML 4.01 DTD and the XHTML 1.0 DTD 
are very similar in the rules they apply. The only difference is the 
well-formed issues that any XML application must adhere to, whether 
it's Transitional or Strict. So which is the better DOCTYPE? HTML 4.01 
Strict, or XHTML 1.0 Transitional? Without a shadow of a doubt, the 
HTML 4.01 Strict DOCTYPE is a far better than XHTML Transitional, as it 
deprecates presentation elements such as font, and presentation 
attributes such as align. XHTML Transitional merely means you've 
ensured it's well formed."

[1 ]http://www.juicystudio.com/choosing-doctype/

XHTML defines "a reformulation of HTML 4 as an XML 1.0 application,
and
three DTDs corresponding to the ones defined by HTML 4"
http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xhtml1-20020801/#abstract

The difference between a "strict" and  a "transitionl" DTD (eg
HTML4.01
Strict and HTML4.01 Transitional) is that the strict DTD has
depreciated elements and attributes removed..
There you go.
Cheers,
chris
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Trouble with safari

[Chris Bentley]

Not sure what's happening. but when I delete the border-top property 
from this rule the page behaves as expected in Safari.

#c {
height: 400px;
margin-left: 224px;
background-color: #fff;
/* border-top: 1px solid #537B8D; */
}
Cheers,
chris
On 06/05/2004, at 5:15 PM, simon wrote:
Well the nav bar in ie and firefox works fine .. However in safari the 
nav elements seem to be overlapping each other ... and i dont 
understand why.
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Web essentials is now active!

[russ weakley]

ooops. Try 2004.
Dave Shea, Doug Bowman, Joe Clark and others. Sydney, September 2004  
:)
russ


Original Message:
>From: Lea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [WSG] Web essentials is now active!
>Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 17:44:40 +1000

>On Thu, 06 May 2004 17:21:30 +1000, russ - maxdesign wrote:
>> Early bird rates apply till 1 July 2000
>
>Darn, and I only missed it by 4 years!
>
>
>Lea
>

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] XHTML transitional is a half-way house

[Patrick Griffiths]

>>> I thought XHTML transitional _is_ XML. In what way is XHTML
>>> transitional is a "less strict data format"?
>>
>> It's a transition. It's a half-way house between HTML 4 and XHTML as
it
>> is intended (XHTML Strict).

> No its not. There is no such thing as a half-way house between HTML 4
> and XHTML.

Sure there is. That's what it's meant to be anyway. What else does
'Transitional' mean? - It's a bridge between what people were used to to
something newer. Which is why it's the same as XHTML Strict, just with a
generous helping of 'old' elements to ease the transition.

> XHTML defines "a reformulation of HTML 4 as an XML 1.0 application,
and
> three DTDs corresponding to the ones defined by HTML 4"
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xhtml1-20020801/#abstract

> The difference between a "strict" and  a "transitionl" DTD (eg
HTML4.01
> Strict and HTML4.01 Transitional) is that the strict DTD has
> depreciated elements and attributes removed..

There you go.



Patrick Griffiths (PTG)
 http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/
 http://www.htmldog.com



*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Web essentials is now active!

[Lea de Groot]

On Thu, 06 May 2004 17:21:30 +1000, russ - maxdesign wrote:
> Early bird rates apply till 1 July 2000

Darn, and I only missed it by 4 years!


Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/
Brisbane, Australia
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] Web essentials is now active!

[russ - maxdesign]

Web Essentials is now taking taking bookings online.
Early bird rates apply till 1 July 2000
Hope you can all make it  :)
http://we04.com/

Russ

The Australian Museum.
Australia's first - and leading - natural sciences and anthropology
museum. Visit www.amonline.net.au

The views in this email are those of the user and do not necessarily
reflect the views of the Australian Museum. The information contained in
this email message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential
and is for the intended recipient only. If you are not the intended
recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or
copying of this email or any attached files is unauthorised. If you are
not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify the sender.The
Australian Museum does not guarantee the accuracy of any information
contained in this e-mail or attached files. As Internet communications
are not secure, the Australian Museum does not accept legal
responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files.

RE: [WSG] anne ven kerstern

[Hill, Tim]

Anne ven kerstern is 17 years old? What the?


Tim Hill
Computer Associates
Graphic Artist
tel: +612 9937 0792
fax: +612 9937 0546
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 


Anna ven Kesteren looks at a poorly structured site and does it with
standards:
http://annevankesteren.nl/archives/2004/05/leidennl-by-anne
The original site:
http://www.leiden.nl/dspage.asp?pageid=0
Anne's version:
http://limpid.nl/projecten/leiden/


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

Re: [WSG] Trouble with safari

[simon]

Well the nav bar in ie and firefox works fine .. However in safari the 
nav elements seem to be overlapping each other ... and i dont understand 
why.


russ - maxdesign wrote:
Be more specific please. What is problem?
Russ
 

Hi Guys,
Im currently having trouble making the navigation of my site work in
safari. It works in all other modern browsers but safari.
Site is here --> http://www.creativeedge.net.au/wadigi/temp2.html
any help is much appreciated ..
Regards
Simon Dodson
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 
   

 


The Australian Museum.
Australia's first - and leading - natural sciences and anthropology
museum. Visit www.amonline.net.au
The views in this email are those of the user and do not necessarily
reflect the views of the Australian Museum. The information contained in
this email message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential
and is for the intended recipient only. If you are not the intended
recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or
copying of this email or any attached files is unauthorised. If you are
not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify the sender.The
Australian Museum does not guarantee the accuracy of any information
contained in this e-mail or attached files. As Internet communications
are not secure, the Australian Museum does not accept legal
responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files.
 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*