Re: [WSG] Thanks Peter and Russ

[Universal Head]

An experienced designer should ask the right questions.
Cheers!
Peter


On 14/05/2004, at 4:39 PM, Michael Kear wrote:

Frankly I don't think I have the skills to brief a designer
adequately yet.  I suspect that's a skill all on its own.

Universal Head 
Design That Works.

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T	(+612) 9517 1466
F	(+612) 9565 4747
E	[EMAIL PROTECTED]
W	www.universalhead.com

[WSG] (OT) HTML / CSS Design Job in Sydney - do not reply

[scott parsons]

We have a position vacant for a front end developer in Sydney Australia. 
The person would have good (x)html, css, and javascript skills. Flash and actionscript would also be helpful (though not essential) 
Please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] directly for further information and do not reply to this message on list."

scott parsons

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Tables are bad because...

[Justin French]

On 14/05/2004, at 3:46 PM, Aaron DC wrote:

... heya all - just joined the list for interest's sake and am slowly 
making my way through some of the posted CSS-savvy sites. Somewhere 
along the way someone decided tables and in particular nested tables 
are a bad thing (tm) - I am curious as to the reasoning/history behind 
this, and the penalties I will receive when I release the new website 
design for my website :)
The penalties include:
- code bloat
- higher bandwidth costs
- longer download times
- longer rendering times (some browsers need to read the whole table 
before rendering)
- confusing use of incorrect tags for the purpose
- confusing redesigns ("how many TDs are there again?", "where the  
am I?", etc)
- incompatibility with non-visual user agents
- incompatibility with other devices (which may not even exist yet)

The thing is, tables aren't bad at all.  Tables are very useful for 
displaying tabular data, and can/should still be used for such things.  
What *is* bad is using tables to layout page grids, rendering content 
which is not tabular, like a 2 or 3 column page layout.  By using 
tables in such a way, you're mixing presentational mark-up with your 
content mark-up.

DIVs and SPANs were invented to wrap around logical blocks of content.  
CSS was invented to style this content (presentation).  This makes a 
whole heap more sense than a whole bunch tables, right?

...

...
...

...
Then a style sheet will position and present that information any way 
you like (within reason).  If you decide one week to have the sub colum 
on the left, then switch it to the right a week later (or even page by 
page), it's really easy with stylesheets, and better still, a quick 
edit of one stylesheet rule can update 100's or 1000's of individual 
pages.

It's a beautiful thing.

The rewards include:
- less mark-up and code bloat
- separation of content and presentation (to a certain degree)
- smaller page sizes (since a single 25k style sheet can style 1000's 
of pages, all of which are leaner by around 50%)
- lower bandwidth costs
- faster rendering times
- semantic use of tags as intended (a P is a paragraph, a Hx is a 
heading, a div defines a logical block of content, etc.
- simple, fast, global redesigns from one file
- graceful degradation to older browsers (@import can hide style sheets 
from NN4 and IE4, so they just get plain stylings, and IE conditional 
comments can target misbehaving IE versions)
- forwards compatibility with any standards-compliant user agent (in 
theory, if you validate)
- you're using HTML as it was intended (for structure and mark-up of a 
document, not rendering)
- you're using CSS as it was intended (for presentation of a 
well-structured HTML)
- you're ready for whatever the future brings (as long as it's based on 
the standards)
- less presentational elements and superfluous tables in the mark-up 
mean that it will require less skill to edit and maintain the content

I could go on.

There is of course some downsides (mainly along the line of frustration 
and the steep learning curve), but they're well worth it IMHO.

The history is simple.  We used to force tables, stretchy GIFs, 
 's and inline presentation elements (like ... to do things that HTML couldn't do.  Now it can, and 
most browsers are pretty sorted out, so jump on board and get with the 
program :)

But to answer your question, TABLEs aren't bad -- incorrect use of them 
is bad :)

---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] Thanks Peter and Russ

[Michael Kear]

Thanks Peter and Russ for letting this digital web magazine redesign thread
continue. 

I know it's only related to standards if you stand back a long way and
squint but I'm finding it very useful and I don't belong to any other lists
that could give me intelligent ideas on these things. 

And yes guys, one of my better options would be to sub out my design work.
I'm still trying to see if it's feasible to work on my own design skills
first.  Frankly I don't think I have the skills to brief a designer
adequately yet.  I suspect that's a skill all on its own.

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com




*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

[Jackie Reid]

Tina said
> May I ask what sort of "design books" you use for inspiration?
and
> I'd like to find some sources of "original inspiration" but I don't know
> where to look for that.

Inspiration can come from absolutely anything...

A well laid out article in a magazine.
A damn fine press/print ad
The front cover of a book
a paint chart full of great colours
a nifty menu or an architectual newsletter...
... the list could go on for ever

almost everything i see these days gets looked at with a view of how i can
adapt it for the web.

My css and design skills are not great enough as yet to be able to create
the sites that i know i will be able to one day, but i have a folder chock
full of things i have torn out and stored away for inspiration when that day
comes along. :)

btw... the finished result will probably never look anything like the
"inspiration" but it was enough to get you off and running.

Jackie

> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> *
>
>

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] APC magazine anti standards article

[John Allsopp]

Thanks Kay and Hugh

I am currently trying to pen a reasonable reply to Andy Budd's post  
this morning

http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2004/05/ 
an_objective_look_at_table_based_vs_css_based_design/

sigh

john

John,

http://www.apcmag.com/apc/v3.nsf/0/A569C81864DC4F1BCA256E5F001A59C5

(posted here on April 16 by Iparuan Martinez)

-Hugh Todd

anyone got a link to or can send me the text of that recent anti  
standards article mentioned here at APC?
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*
John Allsopp

:: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
:: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
:: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] Tables are bad because...

[Kay Smoljak]

Hi Aaron,

How about this article, helpfully titled "Why tables for layout is stupid".

http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/

Also, I highly recommend Jeffrey Zeldman's book "Designing for Web
Standards". It's a great read, for zealots and non-zealots alike :)

K.

--
Kay Smoljak
Senior Developer/QC Leader/Search Optimisation
PerthWeb Pty Ltd - http://www.perthweb.com.au/
Ph: 08 9226 1366 - Fax: 08 9226 1375 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Aaron DC
> Sent: Friday, 14 May 2004 1:46 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] Tables are bad because...
> 
> ... heya all - just joined the list for interest's sake and 
> am slowly making my way through some of the posted CSS-savvy 
> sites. Somewhere along the way someone decided tables and in 
> particular nested tables are a bad thing (tm) - I am curious 
> as to the reasoning/history behind this, and the penalties I 
> will receive when I release the new website design for my website :)
>  
> Regards,
> Aaron
>  
> 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

[Universal Head]

The best place is to go to a good quality bookstore that stocks a range of design-related titles. I could name some in Sydney but that's not very useful for many people on the list ... I'm also on the visiting list of a distributor who specialises in design books who comes around to the studio occasionally to display a range of titles.

Here's some titles from the bookshelf next to me ...

There are books that focus on one studio's work eg
Stefan Sagmeister 'Made You Look'
Tolleson Design 'SoakWashRinseSpin'

General design collections and annuals eg
Graphis
Typography (annual of the Type Directors Club)
Graphic Design USA (annual of the American Institute of Graphic Arts)

Specific design fields eg
'The Best of Brochure Design 07'
'The Power of Paper in Graphic Design'
'Fresh Ideas in Promotion'
'Even More Great Design Using 1, 2 or 3 colours'

Magazines eg
Communication Arts

'How-To' type books eg
'What is Packaging Design'
'Designing with Web Standards'

Check out a good specialty bookstore. Hope this helps. Contact me off list if you need specifics.
Peter

On 14/05/2004, at 3:44 PM, YoYoEtc wrote:

May I ask what sort of "design books" you use for inspiration? I have wondered myself where to get inspiration from.  So far, I just scout around the Internet and look for other sites in the same industry or of the same subject matter. However, I tend to think that limits my brain somewhat i.e. when they are all of the same "flavor".

I'd like to find some sources of "original inspiration" but I don't know where to look for that.

Universal Head 
Design That Works.

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T	(+612) 9517 1466
F	(+612) 9565 4747
E	[EMAIL PROTECTED]
W	www.universalhead.com

RE: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

[Nick Cowie]

Tina wrote:

> So far, I just scout around 
> the Internet and look for other sites in the same industry or 
> of the same 
> subject matter. 

I build sites for the government and sticking to sites in the same "industry" or same 
subject matter, would makes some very uninteresting sites.  I tend to take nodes of 
inspiration (see http://www.cameronmoll.com/archives/16.html for the rundown on 
nodes of inspiration) from  a wide variety of sources, personal blogs, CSS Zen garden 
and almost everywhere else except other Gov sites.

> May I ask what sort of "design books" you use for inspiration? I have 
> wondered myself where to get inspiration from.  

The book that has influenced me the most in how I "design" sites is Magazine Design 
That Works: Secrets for Successful Magazine Design by Stacey King, Rockport 
Publishers.  Probably for two reasons:
1.  It taught me a lot about grid theory (not being a traditional designer)
2.  It mad me think about how to present the information in the best structre.


Nick
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

Re: [WSG] APC magazine anti standards article

[afdesign]

The World Wide Web Is Not Enough by David Emberton
http://www.apcmag.com/apc/v3.nsf/0/A569C81864DC4F1BCA256E5F001A59C5
John Allsopp wrote:

Hi all,

anyone got a link to or can send me the text of that recent anti 
standards article mentioned here at APC?

Thanks,

John

John Allsopp

:: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
:: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
:: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] APC magazine anti standards article

[Hugh Todd]

John,

http://www.apcmag.com/apc/v3.nsf/0/A569C81864DC4F1BCA256E5F001A59C5

(posted here on April 16 by Iparuan Martinez)

-Hugh Todd

anyone got a link to or can send me the text of that recent anti 
standards article mentioned here at APC?
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

[YoYoEtc]

I did a similar thing for a site I am about to design.  I have been looking 
at various sites for ideas re color, layout, features, etc. and created a 
folder for "sites I admire" in my favorites. This help me narrow down the 
ideas I could use on the new site.

At 02:03 AM 5/14/2004, Nick Lo wrote:
As an example with regards to those alistapart things cited above I put 
them in a mental bookmark filed under...that would be good for the 
upcoming project X. This same process is done in programming where you 
build a library (mental or digital) of useful stuff.


-
Tina
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] APC magazine anti standards article

[Kay Smoljak]

> anyone got a link to or can send me the text of that recent 
> anti standards article mentioned here at APC?



I blogged it:
http://kay.smoljak.com/archives/?dont-be-a-dinosaur





--
Kay Smoljak
Senior Developer/QC Leader/Search Optimisation
PerthWeb Pty Ltd - http://www.perthweb.com.au/
Ph: 08 9226 1366 - Fax: 08 9226 1375 


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

[Nick Lo]

Well to bring it tenuously back on topic...

Take a look at some of the features on that page then take a trip to 
alistapart.com with a checklist:

Mountaintop Corners
Sliding Doors
etc...
...and I forget where I've seen that background quotes idea before.

What I'm driving at is not that the designer there has ripped anything 
off, more that you do build a mental or bookmarked scrapbook of ideas. 
In the digital web site they COULD have been influenced as much by 
discovering what can be done safely in CSS as much as what looks good.

Design is as much about method as some ethereal gift which is often how 
it is treated. As Universal Head Peter points out it's often still an 
agonising process for 'designer people'.

I moved into programming web apps as I'd been designing for over 10 
years previously and needed a break from other people's opinions and 
all the back seat designing that you have to deal with (designer as 
scribe?!). I'm now getting back into it and what's interesting is all 
the methodology of creative thinking that I'm needing to get back into.

As an example with regards to those alistapart things cited above I put 
them in a mental bookmark filed under...that would be good for the 
upcoming project X. This same process is done in programming where you 
build a library (mental or digital) of useful stuff.

That said it still takes a certain other thing to get all things 
looking pretty and ahem... working in CSS (grasping at straws!).

Nick

We're in danger of getting smacked on the keyboard hands by the List 
Mum, but I'll quickly say:
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] APC magazine anti standards article

[John Allsopp]

Hi all,

anyone got a link to or can send me the text of that recent anti 
standards article mentioned here at APC?

Thanks,

John

John Allsopp

:: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
:: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
:: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

[YoYoEtc]

May I ask what sort of "design books" you use for inspiration? I have 
wondered myself where to get inspiration from.  So far, I just scout around 
the Internet and look for other sites in the same industry or of the same 
subject matter. However, I tend to think that limits my brain somewhat i.e. 
when they are all of the same "flavor".

I'd like to find some sources of "original inspiration" but I don't know 
where to look for that.

At 01:16 AM 5/14/2004, Universal Head wrote:
While I'm doing this I flip through some of my big collection of design 
books for inspiration, and bookmark things that seem relevant. Not "I'm 
going to use this rounded-corner trick" but "I like the way this design 
uses flat colour or large type next to big spaces".


-
Tina
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] Tables are bad because...

[Aaron DC]

... heya all - just joined the list for interest's 
sake and am slowly making my way through some of the posted CSS-savvy sites. 
Somewhere along the way someone decided tables and in particular nested tables 
are a bad thing (tm) - I am curious as to the reasoning/history behind this, and 
the penalties I will receive when I release the new website design for my 
website :)
 
Regards,
Aaron
 

Re: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

[Justin French]

On 14/05/2004, at 2:41 PM, Michael Kear wrote:

So I was hoping I'd find out you 'proper' designers have a trick other 
than
"its all in the talent and creative side of your brain, son!"
Maybe the trick is to outsource the design to a 'proper' designer :P

I forgot to post this link in my response too -- seems relevant and on 
topic:
http://www.cameronmoll.com/archives/16.html

---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

[Hugh Todd]

Michael.

We're in danger of getting smacked on the keyboard hands by the List 
Mum, but I'll quickly say:

Design is a discipline, as Peter Gifford has said, that benefits from 
learning, whether (if you are able to teach yourself to "see") by 
yourself or, usually much better, in a serious learning environment.

Peter has mentioned a number of the elements of design, but to 
understand what they really mean and how they work you need to learn 
them. Copying others' designs can't teach you this underlying 
knowledge, though you can start to get a feel for the way designers do 
things.

(That said, dirty little secret is that a huge number of designers buy 
magazines like Communications Arts, bookmark cool websites, and 
generally follow the trend-setters, then plunder their work.)

But I ask you this: Do you make your own furniture? No. Because there 
are people out there who know how to do it quicker and better. They've 
developed their eye for form and structure. They understand texture and 
balance. They work with it all the time and have years of training, 
experience and visual memory. They know how to "see" furniture.

It's not magic. It's not simply plucking ideas out of the air, but 
focusing on the communication problem and solving the presentational 
issues involved.

I know you said you have clients with no budgets, but it may cost you 
less than you think to get a halfway good designer to work you up a 
mockup (to the brief I mentioned in my last idea -- the tighter the 
better, to avoid misunderstandings) and from there you can 
web-standardise it into code.

-Hugh Todd

I am trying to see if I
can learn to improve the process somehow to get better results faster 
(or is
it less slow?)

So I was hoping I'd find out you 'proper' designers have a trick other 
than
"its all in the talent and creative side of your brain, son!"
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

[Universal Head]

"its all in the talent and creative side of your brain, son!"

It's easy Mike! See that button on the top right of your keyboard? The one marked "design"? Just press it!

;)

Oh OK I'll say something useful. Here's what I do. When coming up with a concept I sit down with a big piece of paper and I write down words. I write down words the client has used to describe their company, product whatever. Words that describe their target audience, what they want to project to their audience etc. Then I get out a Thesaurus and I write down synonyms for those words that inspire me. Then, when I've exhausted this approach, I think about concepts that communicate these words and meanings. 

While I'm doing this I flip through some of my big collection of design books for inspiration, and bookmark things that seem relevant. Not "I'm going to use this rounded-corner trick" but "I like the way this design uses flat colour or large type next to big spaces".

After I have some thumbnail sections of ideas I want to pursue and some notes on the appropriate fonts and colour schemes, only then do I go to the computer and start working with mockups.

That's one approach. Here's some other ideas I've gathered from various sources into my notebook:

Interviewing the client
- what are you trying to communicate, and why?
- who needs this information, and why?
- what does the audience already know? What does it need to know?
- what single, unique, focused message should the audience walk away with after reading or seeing this piece?
- what have you done to communicate this information before?
- how do you expect your audience to respond? How in turn will you respond to their response?
Empty the brain of all information onto paper after the interview
Research
Process the information
- review notes, reorganise info, restate info in a variety of forms, readress the project objective, reword as a set of design criteria.
Allow time for the information to marinate in the brain

Stefan Sagmeister's Approach
1. Think about the project from any point of view - your mom's, yours, from the point of view of colour, of form - and write each response down on a single index card.
2. Spread all the index cards out on a big table and see if you can find the relationship between the different thoughts.
3. Forget about the whole thing.
4. The idea will strike you miraculously when you least expect it.

"Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort. "
"Do not think of your faults, still less of others' faults; look for what is good and strong, and try to imitate it. Your faults will drop off, like dead leaves, when their time comes. "
"There is nothing in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is that man's lawful prey." 
quotes from John Ruskin 1819-1900

Peter
PS I stole the button design on www.cinema4duser.com from shauninman.com

Universal Head 
Design That Works.

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T	(+612) 9517 1466
F	(+612) 9565 4747
E	[EMAIL PROTECTED]
W	www.universalhead.com

RE: [WSG] Is a degree necessary? THREAD CLOSED - Open it back up! Please.

[theGrafixGuy]

Why do the active threads get killed? Some one asks a decent question and
gets some very valid input only to get killed off???

Just because something may not be of interest to the particular moderator on
duty, I'd like to see a little consideration out there as well - if it is
producing some interesting conversation and something worth reading and
apparently of enough interest to readers to reply, why not let it continue?

Heck, if I were the moderator, I'd be more inclined to jump on the Out of
Office setters who don't know their e-mail from the end of their nose.

My two cents worth on the matter - and no I am not trying to be
disrespectful, just hoping to see some more interesting topics and e-mails
than 23 in a 20 hour period!

 
Brian Grimmer
 
theGrafixGuy

-Original Message-
From: Peter Firminger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 5:56 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Is a degree necessary? THREAD CLOSED

Russ already stopped this thread. Please do not continue with it on list.

P


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 



*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

[Michael Kear]

Justin French said: 

<<<...But personally, I'd find very little satisfaction drawing inspiration 
directly from bookmarks.  I'd much rather take every pull-quote I've 
ever seen, throw them all in a blender, and come up with my OWN 
solution appropriate to the job at hand

I know what you mean. That's the approach I've been using up to now.  But
getting a design is like pulling teeth for me.  I know I'm not a designer or
an artist (and I don't play one on tv either), but I am trying to see if I
can learn to improve the process somehow to get better results faster (or is
it less slow?)

So I was hoping I'd find out you 'proper' designers have a trick other than
"its all in the talent and creative side of your brain, son!"

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com



*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] Link on csscreator

[Taco Fleur]

Title: Link on csscreator



Sure
is, thanks.

  -Original Message-From: Avril Bowie
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, 14 May 2004 2:12
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] Link
  on csscreator
  
  http://www.csscreator.com/attributes/index.php
   
  Is this what you were
  looking for Taco?
  -Avril
   
  -Original
  Message-From:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Taco FleurSent: Friday,
  14 May 2004
  1:56
  PMTo: Web Standards Group
  (E-mail)Subject: [WSG] Link
  on csscreator
   
  I
  was looking for that page Tony Aslett created with all the CSS tags listed and
  its description, but I can't find a link to that page on his website, neither
  can I find his email on his site (otherwise I would have mailed him
  directly).
  Cheers
  
  


  Register now for the 3rd National Conference on Tourism Futures, being held in Townsville, North Queensland 4-6 August - www.tq.com.au/tfconf


Register now for the 3rd National Conference on Tourism Futures, being held in Townsville, North Queensland 4-6 August - www.tq.com.au/tfconf

Re: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

[Justin French]

On 14/05/2004, at 1:31 PM, Michael Kear wrote:

Then for me, when the time comes to do a brand new site, I find all 
those
ideas vanish from my mind and all I can think of is a boring site just 
like
all the others I've done.  It can take AGES to think of a concept for 
a new
site.

How do you 'designer people' handle this?  Do you keep it all in your 
head?
Or do you have some kind of notebook or snippet system to hold all 
those
neat tricks somewhere for when you can use them another day?
When I'm designing / developing a site, my ideas are all usually 
spawned out of necessity -- like a client request (or general need) for 
pull-quotes or blockquotes.

As a designer, it would then be up to me to design a method for marking 
up and styling those quotes appropriately for the project/page in 
question.  To do this I would draw on years of web surfing and design 
work for inspiration, and blend it with the branding and identity of 
the current project.

You might find it useful to bookmark pages which have "cool tricks" you 
use later (naming them "cool blockquotes" rather than "DigitalWeb"), or 
even organise a whole bunch of screen grabs in a folderd.

But personally, I'd find very little satisfaction drawing inspiration 
directly from bookmarks.  I'd much rather take every pull-quote I've 
ever seen, throw them all in a blender, and come up with my OWN 
solution appropriate to the job at hand.

---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] Link on csscreator

[Avril Bowie]

Title: Link on csscreator









http://www.csscreator.com/attributes/index.php

 

Is this what you were looking for Taco?

-Avril

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Taco Fleur
Sent: Friday, 14
 May 2004 1:56 PM
To: Web Standards Group (E-mail)
Subject: [WSG] Link on csscreator

 

I
was looking for that page Tony Aslett created with all the CSS tags listed and
its description, but I can't find a link to that page on his website, neither
can I find his email on his site (otherwise I would have mailed him directly).

Cheers







Register now for the 3rd National Conference on Tourism Futures, being held in Townsville, North Queensland 4-6 August - www.tq.com.au/tfconf

[WSG] Link on csscreator

[Taco Fleur]

Title: Link on csscreator






I was looking for that page Tony Aslett created with all the CSS tags listed and its description, but I can't find a link to that page on his website, neither can I find his email on his site (otherwise I would have mailed him directly).

Cheers




Register now for the 3rd National Conference on Tourism Futures, being held in Townsville, North Queensland 4-6 August - www.tq.com.au/tfconf

[WSG] Objective look at tables for layout

[Nick Lo]

Via Mezzoblue:

http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2004/05/13/gasp_tables/index.php

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

[Michael Kear]

AH, you're like me Kay - you see something cool then you start looking
around for a project to use it on.   "Where can I do that?   I have to have
a site that's ready for re-development again surely!"

Then for me, when the time comes to do a brand new site, I find all those
ideas vanish from my mind and all I can think of is a boring site just like
all the others I've done.  It can take AGES to think of a concept for a new
site.

How do you 'designer people' handle this?  Do you keep it all in your head?
Or do you have some kind of notebook or snippet system to hold all those
neat tricks somewhere for when you can use them another day?


Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kay Smoljak
Sent: Friday, 14 May 2004 1:04 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

> New redesign for digital web, looks cool. 
> www.digital-web.com

Wow.

Nice, not really sure about how the different areas of the page "gel" at
higher resolutions... but so many nice "bits". The current section
indicators are cute, the what's new title rocks, the tabs are cool. And
somewhere, SOMEWHERE, by the end of today, I swear I will have pull quotes
in little rounded panels. Somewhere :)

K.

--
Kay Smoljak
Senior Developer/QC Leader/Search Optimisation
PerthWeb Pty Ltd - http://www.perthweb.com.au/
Ph: 08 9226 1366 - Fax: 08 9226 1375 


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] standards compliant .NET modules

[SomeNewKid]

Fair question, James.

A forum component for ASP.NET will not output HTML (). Rather, it will inject ASP.NET server controls ().

The component developers are not forced to do this. They *could* output
static and valid XHTML if they wanted. However, by injecting ASP.NET server
controls rather than outputting HTML, such components leverage the power of
ASP.NET. And the ASP.NET server controls *are* amazingly clever. The single
downside of injecting server controls is that these controls do not output
standards compliant XHTML.

If anyone wants more information about ASP.NET, they are welcome to contact
me. However, I don't want to skew this discussion away from the original
question.

Regards,
Alister


- Original Message - 
From: "James Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] standards compliant .NET modules


> Hi
> Surely a .net developer can write their own function to output compliant
> markup? seems strange that a language forces someone to use inbuilt
modules.
>
> Cheers
> James
>
> SomeNewKid wrote:
>
> >The ASP.NET framework does not produce standards compliant XHTML. Hence,
no
> >off-the-shelf forum component for ASP.NET will produce valid XHTML.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> *
>
>
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

[Kay Smoljak]

> New redesign for digital web, looks cool. 
> www.digital-web.com

Wow.

Nice, not really sure about how the different areas of the page "gel" at
higher resolutions... but so many nice "bits". The current section
indicators are cute, the what's new title rocks, the tabs are cool. And
somewhere, SOMEWHERE, by the end of today, I swear I will have pull quotes
in little rounded panels. Somewhere :)

K.

--
Kay Smoljak
Senior Developer/QC Leader/Search Optimisation
PerthWeb Pty Ltd - http://www.perthweb.com.au/
Ph: 08 9226 1366 - Fax: 08 9226 1375 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] digital web magazine redesign

[Hill, Tim]

New redesign for 
digital web, looks cool. 
 
www.digital-web.com
 
 

Tim 
HillComputer 
AssociatesGraphic Artisttel: +612 9937 
0792fax: +612 9937 0546[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 

Re: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[Peter A. Shevtsov]

The ability to finish what you've started is good.
But I think, the ability to give up what you've started if you find it 
useless is more better!

Cheers

Peter A. Shevtsov

Gabriel Vasquez wrote:

Hi Everyone, I apologize if this is off topic but this is one of the few
places that I would be able to talk to web designers and get their opinions
on this.
I've been attending school to get an Associates degree in Digital Media. The
program is 18 months and ranges from html to 3d graphics. I'm already more
than halfway through my courses, but I find that I hit a road block; I'm not
really learning anything. We are just now getting into *basic* css, and
javascript in dreamweaver (which I already know how to do, even though I
prefer to hand-code). The program is now focusing on 3D animation but that's
really not what I'm into at all. I just want to do web design: xhtml, css,
ECMAScript/DOM, etc. -- no more, no less. I don't feel I should spend the
money for something I'm not getting anything out of.
My question to you is this: Do you think it would be wise for me to finish
the program and get the degree even though I'm not learning what I want to
be learning, or should I just call it off and focus on web design?
TIA in advanced for your feedback!

Gabriel
 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] standards compliant .NET modules

[James Ellis]

Hi
Surely a .net developer can write their own function to output compliant 
markup? seems strange that a language forces someone to use inbuilt modules.

Cheers
James
SomeNewKid wrote:

The ASP.NET framework does not produce standards compliant XHTML. Hence, no
off-the-shelf forum component for ASP.NET will produce valid XHTML.
 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] standards compliant .NET modules

[SomeNewKid]

The ASP.NET framework does not produce standards compliant XHTML. Hence, no
off-the-shelf forum component for ASP.NET will produce valid XHTML.

You have four main options when aiming for standards compliance in ASP.NET.

1) Visit www.xhtmlwebcontrols.com and purchase their product. It replaces
*all* of the ASP.NET server controls with ones that produce valid XHTML 1.1
(including the standard Calendar). It also cleverly separates the styling
and behaviour into a separate external CSS and JS files. This won't fix any
commercial components, as they will target the standard ASP.NET server
controls. However, if the component is open-source, then you can roll up
your sleeves and fix this.

2) Create your own server controls that output valid XHTML. Start with this
tutorial "Valid XHTML within .NET":
http://www.liquid-internet.co.uk/content/dynamic/pages/series1article1.aspx

3) You can, to some degree, "fix" the HTML produced by your ASPX page by
passing it through a final "filter". This filter uses Regular Expressions to
correct the more common violations of the standards. See "Producing
XHTML-Compliant Pages With Response Filters":
http://www.aspnetresources.com/articles/HttpFilters.aspx

4) You can forget about the server controls altogether. Instead, your Data
and Business layers can return an XML file to your UI layer. The UI layer
then transforms this XML file with a static or dynamic XSLT file. The
resulting valid XHTML (including server controls) can be dropped on the ASPX
Page. This can be a lot more work ... but it is an option.

I hope this gives you some starting points.


- Original Message - 
From: "Joe Leech" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 11:12 PM
Subject: [WSG] standards compliant .NET modules


> Hello WSG,
>
> I 've only been on the list for a couple of weeks and I've found the
> discussion really interesting.  Anyway...
>
> I am working on a .NET CMS product and we are currently wrestling to
> make the output standards compliant which is proving to be tricky.  Does
> anybody know of any off the shelf .NET XHTML/CSS compliant forum or
> calander products?
>
> Thanks in advance for your help,
>
> joe
>
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> *
>
>
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[Jackie Reid]

> displaying 
the ability to finish something you started
 
I hear this comment thrown about a lot as one 
of the major benefits of getting a degree, frankly I think that's absolute 
garbage.
 
If a degree is reward for perserverence, all 
members of this list should be given honorary degrees today because if anyone 
displays the ability to remain dedicated to something we do!... and against 
all odds. 
 
That's my two bobs worth, for what its 
worth!
 
Jackie
*The 
discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor 
some hints on posting to the list & getting 
help* 

RE: [WSG] old browser download site?

[Mike Pepper]

Kevin,

You should look here for a low-down
http://www.insert-title.com/web_design/?page=articles/dev/multi_IE

then pick 'em up at http://browsers.evolt.org/

Helped me no end.

Mike Pepper
Accessible Website Developer
www.seowebsitepromotion.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Kevin McMonagle
Sent: 13 May 2004 22:40
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] old browser download site?


Hi all,
I need older browsers for testing sites.
Is there anywhere i can download ie windows pre version 6?
They are not available at mircrosofts site.
thanks
-Kevin

_
Getting married? Find tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events.
http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] old browser download site?

[Lea de Groot]

On Thu, 13 May 2004 16:40:03 -0500, Kevin McMonagle wrote:
> Is there anywhere i can download ie windows pre version 6?

http://browsers.evolt.org/
All the browsers you can eat.
Or something like that... :)

warmly,
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/
Brisbane, Australia
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] old browser download site?

[wsg]

Hi Kevin,

Try:

http://www.skyzyx.com/archives/94.php

Multi older versions of IE + instructions on how to get them to all play 
nice on one machine.

Brian



Kevin McMonagle wrote:

Hi all,
I need older browsers for testing sites.
Is there anywhere i can download ie windows pre version 6?
They are not available at mircrosofts site.
thanks
-Kevin
_
Getting married? Find tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life 
Events. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] old browser download site?

[Kevin McMonagle]

Hi all,
I need older browsers for testing sites.
Is there anywhere i can download ie windows pre version 6?
They are not available at mircrosofts site.
thanks
-Kevin
_
Getting married? Find tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events. 
http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] Spammer in our midst

[Mike Pepper]

Don't reply to the graphic on the WHO ARE YOU? mail: it's a mail harvester.

Those in the know won't but we may have some new guys here.

If we all focus out attention on him, we should be able to shut his heart
down :o)

Bloody annoys me, this crap on the web.

Mike Pepper
Accessible Web Developer
www.seowebsitepromotion.com

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] Spammer in our midst

[Mike Pepper]

Don't reply to the graphic on the WHO ARE YOU? mail: it's a mail harvester.

Those in the know won't but we may have some new guys here.

If we all focus out attention on him, we should be able to shut his heart
down :o)

Bloody annoys me, this crap on the web.

Mike Pepper
Accessible Web Developer
www.seowebsitepromotion.com

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] Spammer in our midst

[Mike Pepper]

Don't reply to the graphic on the WHO ARE YOU? mail: it's a mail harvester.

Those in the know won't but we may have some new guys here.

If we all focus out attention on him, we should be able to shut his heart
down :o)

Bloody annoys me, this crap on the web.

Mike Pepper
Accessible Web Developer
www.seowebsitepromotion.com

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG]

[vidya lakshmi]

  WHO ARE YOU?

Re: [WSG] Site Review and some guidance on inheritance please

[Alan Milnes]

Rev Bob wrote:-

> I do have a real comment.  I think the color of the W3C icons is
> beating hell out of your blues.  You either need to get rid of them
> (as in ) or do something to give that
> orange-yellow a context.

Thanks - I'll look into that.

> Don't answer his question.  He made the Steelers lose to Cleveland!

lol - if you select the NFLBC league you will see the Steelers (coached by
me) won
and are in fact the defending champions.

:-)

Alan

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] standards compliant .NET modules

[Joe Leech]

Hello WSG,

I 've only been on the list for a couple of weeks and I've found the 
discussion really interesting.  Anyway...

I am working on a .NET CMS product and we are currently wrestling to 
make the output standards compliant which is proving to be tricky.  Does 
anybody know of any off the shelf .NET XHTML/CSS compliant forum or 
calander products?

Thanks in advance for your help,

joe

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[Jeremy Flint]

I attended earned a Bachelor of Fine Arts with a double emphasis in 
Graphic Design and Photography. This was between 1995 and 2000, and I 
had no "formal" training in Web Design. They didn't even offer classes 
for it at my school, other than some Flash stuff in a Multimedia class 
(which i never took).

I taught myself HTML, etc., after my parents got AOL in 1995 and I was 
creating a homepage using their personal publisher software. I wanted to 
do more, so I got a book on HTML.

I was able to blend my in-depth knowledge of HTML (started out coding in 
notepad, and still handcoding today) and my new knowledge of design 
fundamentals (even though they were for print) and apply it to my web 
designs.

I was also lucky enough to get jobs in college doing web design (2 years 
for the school newspaper and 2 years for a computer/networking firm), so 
i was able to refine my skills in a "real world" setting.

I also just paid attention to what was happening on the web. Glass Dog 
was a favorite hangout of mine back then, as well as the Builder.com boards.

A degree helps. It helps your employer to see you as a professional, not 
just some "kid who like to design". Often times you can do well without 
a degree, but why risk it.

-
Jeremy Flint
www.jeremyflint.com
Gabriel Vasquez wrote:
Hi Everyone, I apologize if this is off topic but this is one of the few
places that I would be able to talk to web designers and get their opinions
on this.
I've been attending school to get an Associates degree in Digital Media. The
program is 18 months and ranges from html to 3d graphics. I'm already more
than halfway through my courses, but I find that I hit a road block; I'm not
really learning anything. We are just now getting into *basic* css, and
javascript in dreamweaver (which I already know how to do, even though I
prefer to hand-code). The program is now focusing on 3D animation but that's
really not what I'm into at all. I just want to do web design: xhtml, css,
ECMAScript/DOM, etc. -- no more, no less. I don't feel I should spend the
money for something I'm not getting anything out of.
My question to you is this: Do you think it would be wise for me to finish
the program and get the degree even though I'm not learning what I want to
be learning, or should I just call it off and focus on web design?
TIA in advanced for your feedback!

Gabriel

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 




*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] Is a degree necessary? THREAD CLOSED

[Peter Firminger]

Russ already stopped this thread. Please do not continue with it on list.

P


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[Chatham, Will]

I do agree with the person that said you should go ahead and finish the
course work since you are already half way through it.

That said, from my experiences in the job market, what matters more than a
degree to potential employers is a good portfolio and experience working on
projects.

Certainly, the education can't hurt at all, but if I were you, I would start
building a portfolio now, whether it be freelance projects or freebie pages
for friends and family.

$0.02

Will Chatham




> -Original Message-
> From: Gabriel Vasquez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 2:39 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?
> 
> 
> Hi Everyone, I apologize if this is off topic but this is one 
> of the few places that I would be able to talk to web 
> designers and get their opinions on this.
> 
> I've been attending school to get an Associates degree in 
> Digital Media. The program is 18 months and ranges from html 
> to 3d graphics. I'm already more than halfway through my 
> courses, but I find that I hit a road block; I'm not really 
> learning anything. We are just now getting into *basic* css, 
> and javascript in dreamweaver (which I already know how to 
> do, even though I prefer to hand-code). The program is now 
> focusing on 3D animation but that's really not what I'm into 
> at all. I just want to do web design: xhtml, css, 
> ECMAScript/DOM, etc. -- no more, no less. I don't feel I 
> should spend the money for something I'm not getting anything out of.
> 
> My question to you is this: Do you think it would be wise for 
> me to finish the program and get the degree even though I'm 
> not learning what I want to be learning, or should I just 
> call it off and focus on web design?
> 
> TIA in advanced for your feedback!
> 
> Gabriel
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> * 
> 
> 
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[P.H.Lauke]

> From: Ray Cauchi
[snip]
> There have been positive arguments made for finishing your course
> (such as displaying ability to finish something you started), but from
> my experience, its more what you do now that matters.

Slightly OT, but...

I remember years ago when debating this issue with a friend, a gem of 
knowledge I gathered was that the (then) director general of ZDF, one of
the two major national TV stations in Germany, had a degree in Pathology
... which does go to show that it's not always *what* you study that's
important...

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

Re: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[Ray Cauchi]

Hi there
At the end of the day its your decision!
I did 2 years B.Architecture, then abandoned the whole thing. 4 years
later, I started my own business, which I have now been running for 5
years. Actually, I have dropped out of Uni twice.
You don't need a Degree. There have been positive arguments made
for finishing your course (such as displaying ability to finish something
you started), but from my experience, its more what you do now that
matters. A degree would be nice to have as a fallback, but as long as I
stay in IT, my portfolio speaks for itself. If I get out of IT, then I
will create a new portfolio in something else (maybe woodwork??) for
which a Degree in IT would most likely have no relevance. Its more your
attitude and approach to your work/life that matters.
Do you intend to stay in IT until you die? 
I think trust your instincts, and run with them - best of luck whichever
path you chose to follow!
Ray
At 04:38 PM 13/05/2004, Gabriel Vasquez wrote:
Hi Everyone, I apologize if this
is off topic but this is one of the few
places that I would be able to talk to web designers and get their
opinions
on this.
I've been attending school to get an Associates degree in Digital Media.
The
program is 18 months and ranges from html to 3d graphics. I'm already
more
than halfway through my courses, but I find that I hit a road block; I'm
not
really learning anything. We are just now getting into *basic* css,
and
_javascript_ in dreamweaver (which I already know how to do, even though
I
prefer to hand-code). The program is now focusing on 3D animation but
that's
really not what I'm into at all. I just want to do web design: xhtml,
css,
ECMAScript/DOM, etc. -- no more, no less. I don't feel I should spend
the
money for something I'm not getting anything out of.
My question to you is this: Do you think it would be wise for me to
finish
the program and get the degree even though I'm not learning what I want
to
be learning, or should I just call it off and focus on web
design?
TIA in advanced for your feedback!
Gabriel
*
The discussion list for
http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

Re: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[Ray Cauchi]

Hi there
At the end of the day its your decision!
I did 2 years B.Architecture, then abandoned the whole thing. 4 years
later, I started my own business, which I have now been running for 5
years. Actually, I have dropped out of Uni twice.
You don't need a Degree. There have been positive arguments made
for finishing your course (such as displaying ability to finish something
you started), but from my experience, its more what you do now that
matters. A degree would be nice to have as a fallback, but as long as I
stay in IT, my portfolio speaks for itself. If I get out of IT, then I
will create a new portfolio in something else (maybe woodwork??) for
which a Degree in IT would most likely have no relevance. Its more your
attitude and approach to your work/life that matters.
Do you intend to stay in IT until you die? 
I think trust your instincts, and run with them - best of luck whichever
path you chose to follow!
Ray
At 04:38 PM 13/05/2004, Gabriel Vasquez wrote:
Hi Everyone, I apologize if this
is off topic but this is one of the few
places that I would be able to talk to web designers and get their
opinions
on this.
I've been attending school to get an Associates degree in Digital Media.
The
program is 18 months and ranges from html to 3d graphics. I'm already
more
than halfway through my courses, but I find that I hit a road block; I'm
not
really learning anything. We are just now getting into *basic* css,
and
_javascript_ in dreamweaver (which I already know how to do, even though
I
prefer to hand-code). The program is now focusing on 3D animation but
that's
really not what I'm into at all. I just want to do web design: xhtml,
css,
ECMAScript/DOM, etc. -- no more, no less. I don't feel I should spend
the
money for something I'm not getting anything out of.
My question to you is this: Do you think it would be wise for me to
finish
the program and get the degree even though I'm not learning what I want
to
be learning, or should I just call it off and focus on web
design?
TIA in advanced for your feedback!
Gabriel
*
The discussion list for
http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*

Re: [WSG] Application of web standards in real life (new thread)

[James Ellis]

Neerav

I understand the issue surrounding browser usage but this is only part 
of the picture - an important one, but still only a part. I don't know 
the number of people using handheld - no one does - I do know it's a 
growing trend.

The point I'm trying to press is the extensibility of your application. 
If you have an app that can be tweaked easily to be displayed across a 
maximum number of devices (CRT, LCD, handheld, fridge, etc etc) then you 
are one step ahead. Building to a standard base allows those who provide 
the devices to be assured that theirs will render content as you 
intended (and vice versa). Building to a set audience limits you to that 
audience.

It's a bit like if you are a kitchen cabinet builder who leaves a 600mm 
cavity for the dishwasher to go in - the standard width for a dishwasher 
is 595mm or thereabouts. What happens if someone comes along who builds 
a  605mm dishwasher. A conventional table based dishwasher would have to 
be cut down to size thereby possibly losing the super suds option. If 
you were to move the presentation controls back to the kitchen cabinet 
maker they could specify how to handle the dishwasher content by 
providing a different style for it to fit in - and everybody would have 
clean glasses.

Does that make sense :?

Until you've done something that needs to be elasticated over a number 
of domains (same markup, different presentation of that markup) it's 
difficult to see the benefits-- and there are more benefits in 
separating content from presenattion than a rigid table could ever give. 
It's grid based development vs object based development.

Cheers
James




James

Do you know what percentage of people browsing the net use handhelds? 
I have been unable to find any statistics on it, but suspect its a 
very small number.

My mode of operation is to always keep in mind the law of diminishing 
returns when designing for a client as commercial realities must be 
paramount when trying to earn a living

So ...

1. Depending on the client ill aim for HTML 4 transitional or XHTML 
1.0 transitional validation and complying to the spirit of web 
standards (no presentational tables etc and code that validates), or 
to the letter (code that validates). In both cases I will do my best 
to make it accessible.

2. Whatever design is decided upon i'll get it to work well on the 
newest mozilla, IE 4, 5, 5.5, 6, newest opera, see if it looks 
tolerable on Safari using Dan vine's icapture and in Netscape 4.08

3. Anything else is a bonus, eg: my personal site is table free, and 
scales from very small resoltions to very large with no problems 
(AFAIK) because I had the time to make it so.

However some clients are not willing for you to go the Nth degree of 
cross browser compatibility, ill do my best to convince them but in 
the end its their choice

-- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development & IT 
consultancy James Ellis wrote:

1. I have a multi-column layout... when I psuh the site to a layout 
for handheld I'll turn off the floats that handle the columns. The 
content will then cascade down the page. This will involve adding a 
new stylesheet and linking to it via a media attr, a user agent sniff 
or a hyperlink for the user.

2. I have a multi-column layout... when I push the site to a layout 
for handheld I'll have to change the markup so that the table rows 
have only one cell in them each. This will also affect the screen and 
print versions of the site (so I'll have to do mutiple markup for the 
same content).

Which one is easier and better in the long run?

faffing around with rowspans and colspans can be frustrating as well. 
The difference being that one method has a future, the other doesn't.

Cheers
James
Neerav wrote:


hear hear .. multi-columnnar sites are much easier to do with a 
single wrap around table and work cross-browser than using a CSS 
"for the sake of it approach" creating multi column layouts and 
"faffing about" s=as Mike says

standards are all well and good, and where possible I have no 
problem with adhering to the letter and spirit of webs standards, 
but sometimes things like wrap around tables are indispensible.

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] Design Philosophy

[Mike Pepper]

>My response, below, was really more about shock than anything else.  I
>couldn't believe that somebody would propose to take the visual design
>out of things.  If that were the case, I would probably stop building
>websites tommorrow.  In reality, it would need to be much higher than
>7% to get me to stop building websites.  I would just stop using CSS
>first...

'Don't judge a book by its cover' was probably coined by a brilliant
technician with no design sense. I think I fall somewhere in between: I do
ok with markup and get by with styling (I don't claim to be a designer). But
my off-the-cuff blog entry expresses my consideration of what a good
skeletal design can achieve. First para
http://www.seowebsitepromotion.com/enigma_log.htm.

Get a good understanding of standards constructs and you can get a pretty
good site up.

Mike Pepper
Accessible Web Developer
www.seowebsitepromotion.com


On 12 May 2004, at 18:04, P.H.Lauke wrote:

>> Yes, but are there any really hard statistics about what the
>> public is
>> doing.  We know roughly 7% don't use or diable javascript.  But what
>> about disabling styles?
>
> 
> Why is that relevant? Heck, it's almost like we're going back to the
> old "how many % of users still run at 800x600...lamers"
>
> We know it's 7% ? Do we ? Lies, statistics and lies...it always comes
> down to *your* particular audience.
>
> Yes, we have to give up a level of control on how our pages are
> presented
> (if you want pixel perfect, go back to print, or use flash/PDF/etc),
> but
> we gain flexible delivery based on user preferences. We're not forcing
> our
> visual sensibilities onto users that don't want them (e.g. those
> surfing
> with a simple text browsers couldn't give a damn about lines and lines
> of
> markup relating to presentation, or stylesheets). However, that's
> obviously
> *not* the same as saying that we should therefore not care about
> presentation
> at all.
> 
>
> P
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> *
>
>
>

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

[WSG] Re: IE5 v Mozilla

[Alan Milnes]

> table width="100%"

Thanks - it was originally broken only in IE, hence the title, then I tried
to fix it and broke it in both.

Now working in both.

Alan

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Launched my third xhtml site!!

[Hugh Todd]

Mike,

While it can be difficult with a small client and budget (and a son who 
comes up with rinky-dinky graphics), the best strategy for any 
design/communication work is to discuss and agree on (and formalise) a 
"brief" for your work... its strategy, objectives, type of person you 
want to appeal to and so on.

You agree that all aesthetic (and other) decisions will be taken with 
this brief in mind. So you can ask, does the son's graphic help achieve 
the site's objective, or does it add unnecessary clutter? You're 
looking for the cleanest, most focused implementation of this brief. 
Everything in the design should work towards it. Anything that detracts 
from it should be stripped away.

One way to think about it is to ask, "what metaphor will most clearly 
say what the client wants to say?" With furniture legs you might go for 
a "craftsman" metaphor/look, with a sort of warm, cosy, wood-shavings 
and old tools look, with a colour palette like a cosy autumn afternoon 
in a lovingly cared-for home workshop. You're saying that the 
proprietor really cares about making well-crafted wooden products.

Not rocket science, but it means that when the client comes up with a 
graphic that's the wrong colour or doesn't look well-crafted, you can 
point them to the agreed brief and ask them if it meets it.

-Hugh Todd

(OK, this post was OT, but as a sop to web standards I'll say that the 
beauty of a web standards approach is that any HTML can be crafted via 
css to achieve your goal, across a whole site. And if the metaphor 
changes in a year or two, your CSS can change it to a new one.)

I understand what it is like to work with a client that puts in ideas 
that don't work so well, its an art to guide them away from the bad 
input they provide.
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Design Philosophy

[Vaska . WSG]

I'm following behind the curve on this one as it seems people have put 
this to rest.  However, I really do not want to be grouped into a 
category of people who believe in standards above all else.  I am a 
print designer first and foremost.

My response, below, was really more about shock than anything else.  I 
couldn't believe that somebody would propose to take the visual design 
out of things.  If that were the case, I would probably stop building 
websites tommorrow.  In reality, it would need to be much higher than 
7% to get me to stop building websites.  I would just stop using CSS 
first...

Anyways, we were dealing with an article from 1999 (or so) - things 
become antiquated rather quickly.  Having worked in a few design shops 
I can say that group discussions about design 'philosphies' tend to 
become pedagogical exercises rather quickly as every job you ever do 
will likely be unique.

On 12 May 2004, at 18:04, P.H.Lauke wrote:

Yes, but are there any really hard statistics about what the
public is
doing.  We know roughly 7% don't use or diable javascript.  But what
about disabling styles?

Why is that relevant? Heck, it's almost like we're going back to the
old "how many % of users still run at 800x600...lamers"
We know it's 7% ? Do we ? Lies, statistics and lies...it always comes
down to *your* particular audience.
Yes, we have to give up a level of control on how our pages are 
presented
(if you want pixel perfect, go back to print, or use flash/PDF/etc), 
but
we gain flexible delivery based on user preferences. We're not forcing 
our
visual sensibilities onto users that don't want them (e.g. those 
surfing
with a simple text browsers couldn't give a damn about lines and lines 
of
markup relating to presentation, or stylesheets). However, that's 
obviously
*not* the same as saying that we should therefore not care about 
presentation
at all.


P
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[Aaron DC]

- Original Message -
From: "Gabriel Vasquez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 4:38 PM
Subject: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?


> My question to you is this: Do you think it would be wise for me to finish
> the program and get the degree even though I'm not learning what I want to
> be learning, or should I just call it off and focus on web design?

A "complete" for your course looks much better to prospective employers on
the resume than "DNF' - so good for that reason. The other thing is -
nothing (or close to it) you learn at uni will be directly used in
employment. Uni should teach you to teach yourself, teach you to think and
teach you to communicate.

I would even encourage you to do the 3D subjects etc, as it will be a
paradigm shift to some extent - broaden your mind into other ways of
thinking / approaching problems.

Good luck :)
Aaron


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[Miles Tillinger]

Having 
the degree is one thing, but enjoying what you do is another thing 
completely.  I don't think you'll find many ppl who are successful at what 
they do but totally hate doing it...  If you get into an IT job before 
you finish then you'll have a headstart on everyone 
else.

  -Original Message-From: Hill, Tim 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 4:47 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] Is a 
  degree necessary?
  eheheh 'before 
  computers were used in design' sounds really old sorry 
  =)
   
  I 
  think having a degree is alot better than just having a portfolio. I guess its 
  really what you put in, is what you get out. Like you could still do a degree 
  and just do the bare minimum just keeping up, not putting in any real work, 
  and then wow you have the degree but not an awful lot of experience. 3D might 
  help you out later on, or can you ask to take different subjects 
  perhaps?
   
  
  Tim 
  HillComputer 
  AssociatesGraphic Artisttel: +612 9937 
  0792fax: +612 9937 0546[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   
   
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Universal 
  HeadSent: Thursday, 13 May 2004 5:01 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] Is a degree 
  necessary?
  
  Maybe you should look into design education. It sounds like the course 
  you are doing is very technology based. Of course if you want to code, that's 
  fine. But if you want to communicate visually, and understand how to present 
  information using space, type, colour, relationships etc, then that's a whole 
  different ballgame. 
  It was a long time ago, but I did four years of design education before 
  computers were used in design, and I learnt things that seemed very general at 
  the time, but I realise now were a perfect grounding for a design career. It 
  seems that courses now are so eager to get people into using Maya or learning 
  _javascript_ or whatever that they don't actually teach the basics. 
  Man, I really sound like an old fogey don't I? 
  Peter 
  On 13/05/2004, at 4:38 PM, Gabriel Vasquez wrote: 
  
Hi Everyone, I apologize if this is off topic but this is one of the 
few 
places that I would be able to talk to web designers and get their 
opinions 
on this. 
I've been attending school to get an Associates degree in Digital 
Media. The 
program is 18 months and ranges from html to 3d graphics. I'm already 
more 
than halfway through my courses, but I find that I hit a road block; 
I'm not 
really learning anything. We are just now getting into *basic* css, and 

_javascript_ in dreamweaver (which I already know how to do, even though 
I 
prefer to hand-code). The program is now focusing on 3D animation but 
that's 
really not what I'm into at all. I just want to do web design: xhtml, 
css, 
ECMAScript/DOM, etc. -- no more, no less. I don't feel I should spend 
the 
money for something I'm not getting anything out of. 
My question to you is this: Do you think it would be wise for me to 
finish 
the program and get the degree even though I'm not learning what I want 
to 
be learning, or should I just call it off and focus on web design? 

TIA in advanced for your feedback! 
Gabriel 
* 
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ 
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm 
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help 
* 
  
  
  Universal 
  Head  
  Design That Works. 
  7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore 
  NSW 2048 Australia 
  T (+612) 9517 1466 
  F (+612) 9565 4747 
  E [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  W www.universalhead.com 
  

Re: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[scott parsons]

a degree might not be essential to start out...
but in 5 to ten years when you are trying to get senior positions you 
will be MUCH better for it

Gabriel Vasquez wrote:

Hi Everyone, I apologize if this is off topic but this is one of the few
places that I would be able to talk to web designers and get their opinions
on this.
I've been attending school to get an Associates degree in Digital Media. The
program is 18 months and ranges from html to 3d graphics. I'm already more
than halfway through my courses, but I find that I hit a road block; I'm not
really learning anything. We are just now getting into *basic* css, and
javascript in dreamweaver (which I already know how to do, even though I
prefer to hand-code). The program is now focusing on 3D animation but that's
really not what I'm into at all. I just want to do web design: xhtml, css,
ECMAScript/DOM, etc. -- no more, no less. I don't feel I should spend the
money for something I'm not getting anything out of.
My question to you is this: Do you think it would be wise for me to finish
the program and get the degree even though I'm not learning what I want to
be learning, or should I just call it off and focus on web design?
TIA in advanced for your feedback!

Gabriel

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 



 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Is a degree necessary? - ADMIN

[russ - maxdesign]

For this thread, answers would be better directed to Gabriel offlist.

Russ


>> My question to you is this: Do you think it would be wise for me to finish
>> the program and get the degree even though I'm not learning what I want to
>> be learning, or should I just call it off and focus on web design?
>> 
>> TIA in advanced for your feedback!
>> 
>> Gabriel 

The Australian Museum.
Australia's first - and leading - natural sciences and anthropology
museum. Visit www.amonline.net.au

The views in this email are those of the user and do not necessarily
reflect the views of the Australian Museum. The information contained in
this email message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential
and is for the intended recipient only. If you are not the intended
recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or
copying of this email or any attached files is unauthorised. If you are
not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify the sender.The
Australian Museum does not guarantee the accuracy of any information
contained in this e-mail or attached files. As Internet communications
are not secure, the Australian Museum does not accept legal
responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files.

RE: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[Miles Tillinger]

My short answer:

A uni degree is more than just a piece of paper, its a statement that you were 
determined and dedicated enought to finish what you'd started.  I dropped out in 3rd 
of 4 years and even though it hasn't affected me yet, I worry that I'll be wishing I 
had finished it when I apply for higher paid positions in future.

My long answer:

If you have 3 hours free to read my rant below you might make some sense of it.  After 
reading it myself I'm thinking that I just really needed to VENT!

RANT ALERT!

I don't think anyone would argue that you'll get a better 'education' working in the 
real world, compared to learning in University.  Well, maybe some would argue?  When I 
was still Uni about 5 years ago they were just starting to create courses that catered 
for the emergence ecommerce.  The course I was already in was a CS/Multimedia degree 
with little to no real web stuff at all.  We did do some flash and shockwave stuff but 
I was more interested in data driven applications.

I was already playing around designing websites and basic database driven PHP 
applications and I was pretty sure that I was never going to be taught about Apache, 
PHP, HTML or advanced CSS at uni.  So far (in 3rd year) we'd spent about 2 weeks on 
web site development, and that involved building a basic page in Netscape Composer of 
all things!  That said, i think the CS subjects gave me invaluable knowledge about the 
basics of programming and I'd probably be a much worse coder than I am if not for that 
basic training.  It just got to a point where I wanted to go in a direction that uni 
just wasn't gonna cater for...

Like many of my friends I got a part-time IT job to compliment my full-time uni.  
After about 3 months into 2nd year it swapped to full-time IT job (VB Programmer, 
YUCK) and part-time uni.  So 5 years later and I've got a year of full-time study left 
to finish the degree, but I definitely think that real-world IT experience is of 
greater value to employers.  I've now got about 7 years of experience plus a 66% 
completed CS degree and plenty of respect from my peers.  A lot of my uni friends who 
opted to stick out uni and get the degree are still looking for a good IT job (tech 
support for an ISP is not what I would consider a positive outcome after 4 years of 
uni).

That said, I think its a different decision for everyone.  I think the thing I have 
going for me in the real-world of IT is that I didn't just do a CS degree coz I 
couldn't decide what to do.  I did it coz I was a fricken website making, 
game-playing, warez leeching, IRC chatting NERD and I thought i'd need a degree to get 
my foot in the door.  Turns out that my enthusiasm was my most powerful weapon!

I continue to keep up with all the latest internet technologies in my own personal 
time because that's what I love.  I'm probably nothing compared to some of the guys on 
this list who are constantly pushing the boundaries and trying to invent a better 
wheel.  Basically I think if you love the internet and everything IT in general then 
ppl will notice.  You'll also be 'studying' on a daily basis, however for you it will 
be disguised as FUN!  Geez, I don't even know if I made a point here but perhaps 
something I said will help you with your decision.  Just get a job in IT first and see 
if you cut it...

Probably a little more than my $0.02...  I'm now very interested to see other members 
replies!

Mt.

> -Original Message-
> From: Gabriel Vasquez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 4:09 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?
> 
> 
> Hi Everyone, I apologize if this is off topic but this is one 
> of the few
> places that I would be able to talk to web designers and get 
> their opinions
> on this.
> 
> I've been attending school to get an Associates degree in 
> Digital Media. The
> program is 18 months and ranges from html to 3d graphics. I'm 
> already more
> than halfway through my courses, but I find that I hit a road 
> block; I'm not
> really learning anything. We are just now getting into 
> *basic* css, and
> javascript in dreamweaver (which I already know how to do, 
> even though I
> prefer to hand-code). The program is now focusing on 3D 
> animation but that's
> really not what I'm into at all. I just want to do web 
> design: xhtml, css,
> ECMAScript/DOM, etc. -- no more, no less. I don't feel I 
> should spend the
> money for something I'm not getting anything out of.
> 
> My question to you is this: Do you think it would be wise for 
> me to finish
> the program and get the degree even though I'm not learning 
> what I want to
> be learning, or should I just call it off and focus on web design?
> 
> TIA in advanced for your feedback!
> 
> Gabriel
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the li

RE: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[Hill, Tim]

eheheh 'before 
computers were used in design' sounds really old sorry 
=)
 
I 
think having a degree is alot better than just having a portfolio. I guess its 
really what you put in, is what you get out. Like you could still do a degree 
and just do the bare minimum just keeping up, not putting in any real work, and 
then wow you have the degree but not an awful lot of experience. 3D might help 
you out later on, or can you ask to take different subjects 
perhaps?
 

Tim 
HillComputer 
AssociatesGraphic Artisttel: +612 9937 
0792fax: +612 9937 0546[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Universal 
HeadSent: Thursday, 13 May 2004 5:01 PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] Is a degree 
necessary?

Maybe you should look into design education. It sounds like the course you 
are doing is very technology based. Of course if you want to code, that's fine. 
But if you want to communicate visually, and understand how to present 
information using space, type, colour, relationships etc, then that's a whole 
different ballgame. 
It was a long time ago, but I did four years of design education before 
computers were used in design, and I learnt things that seemed very general at 
the time, but I realise now were a perfect grounding for a design career. It 
seems that courses now are so eager to get people into using Maya or learning 
_javascript_ or whatever that they don't actually teach the basics. 
Man, I really sound like an old fogey don't I? 
Peter 
On 13/05/2004, at 4:38 PM, Gabriel Vasquez wrote: 

  Hi Everyone, I apologize if this is off topic but this is one of the few 
  
  places that I would be able to talk to web designers and get their 
  opinions 
  on this. 
  I've been attending school to get an Associates degree in Digital Media. 
  The 
  program is 18 months and ranges from html to 3d graphics. I'm already 
  more 
  than halfway through my courses, but I find that I hit a road block; I'm 
  not 
  really learning anything. We are just now getting into *basic* css, and 
  
  _javascript_ in dreamweaver (which I already know how to do, even though I 
  
  prefer to hand-code). The program is now focusing on 3D animation but 
  that's 
  really not what I'm into at all. I just want to do web design: xhtml, 
  css, 
  ECMAScript/DOM, etc. -- no more, no less. I don't feel I should spend the 
  
  money for something I'm not getting anything out of. 
  My question to you is this: Do you think it would be wise for me to 
  finish 
  the program and get the degree even though I'm not learning what I want 
  to 
  be learning, or should I just call it off and focus on web design? 
  
  TIA in advanced for your feedback! 
  Gabriel 
  * 
  The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ 
  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm 
  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help 
  * 


Universal 
Head  
Design That Works. 
7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore 
NSW 2048 Australia 
T (+612) 9517 1466 
F (+612) 9565 4747 
E [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
W www.universalhead.com 

Re: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[Universal Head]

Maybe you should look into design education. It sounds like the course you are doing is very technology based. Of course if you want to code, that's fine. But if you want to communicate visually, and understand how to present information using space, type, colour, relationships etc, then that's a whole different ballgame.

It was a long time ago, but I did four years of design education before computers were used in design, and I learnt things that seemed very general at the time, but I realise now were a perfect grounding for a design career. It seems that courses now are so eager to get people into using Maya or learning Javascript or whatever that they don't actually teach the basics.

Man, I really sound like an old fogey don't I?

Peter


On 13/05/2004, at 4:38 PM, Gabriel Vasquez wrote:

Hi Everyone, I apologize if this is off topic but this is one of the few
places that I would be able to talk to web designers and get their opinions
on this.

I've been attending school to get an Associates degree in Digital Media. The
program is 18 months and ranges from html to 3d graphics. I'm already more
than halfway through my courses, but I find that I hit a road block; I'm not
really learning anything. We are just now getting into *basic* css, and
javascript in dreamweaver (which I already know how to do, even though I
prefer to hand-code). The program is now focusing on 3D animation but that's
really not what I'm into at all. I just want to do web design: xhtml, css,
ECMAScript/DOM, etc. -- no more, no less. I don't feel I should spend the
money for something I'm not getting anything out of.

My question to you is this: Do you think it would be wise for me to finish
the program and get the degree even though I'm not learning what I want to
be learning, or should I just call it off and focus on web design?

TIA in advanced for your feedback!

Gabriel

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 



Universal Head 
Design That Works.

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T	(+612) 9517 1466
F	(+612) 9565 4747
E	[EMAIL PROTECTED]
W	www.universalhead.com

Re: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[Lachlan Hardy]

Gabriel,

You're over halfway through an 18 month course. Finish it.

You may no longer learn anything of any technical benefit for your plans for
future, but a qualification is invaluable in life due to the absurd rules by
which society judges your worth. I have a few qualifications that I figure
aren't worth the paper they were printed on, but you can bet that I know
where to find those pieces of paper if someone asks me. Do the work
necessary to pass (who knows, that information may come in useful later) and
spend the rest of your time focusing on what you care about. Which,
hopefully, is web standards compliant stuff!

Cheers,
Lachlan

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*