[WSG] Sydney WSG meeting 5th August
Hi Sydney members, The next Sydney WSG meeting will be held on 5th August - Thursday week. Agenda: 7.00pm - 7.15pm John Allsopp WE04 - things are hotting up! 7.15pm - 7.45pm Russ Weakley A web standards checklist How do you know your site is web standards compliant - with a detailed checklist that covers quality of code, separation of content and presentation and accessibility for users and devices. 7.45pm - 8.00pm Break 8.00pm - 8.30pm Ben Bishop Desperately Seeking Validation: More than just a pretty button An explanation of validation, its importance and how to go about achieving a valid site. Where: Australian Museum Search Discover Meeting Rooms 6 College Street, Sydney RSVP [EMAIL PROTECTED] Further info: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event12.cfm Look forward to seeing you all there! Russ and Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] access keys and tab index
I just had an appointment reminder pop-up on my outlook. Today is the day that I'm supposed to put together a list of access keys to use on our web site and the tab index on our forms. For those of you that have put together a chart of access keys for your sitewide navigation, do you have any good suggestions? Has anyone written a good story on the approach and maybe even listed a set of default access keys to keep the web fairly universal? Thanks for the help to this plaintive cry for help. By the way, I just finished combining sliding doors with a big ol' sprite that includes all of my site's navigation and background elements. I haven't fine-tuned it but will post it when it's done. The sticking point is the right side of the tab when I can't use 100% as the right side. If you've done sliding doors ala alistapart, this ramble may make some sense. Ted www.superiorpixelw.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS Drop down menu - Bugfix IE
Hi Bent, ...The menu is tested in Opera, Firefox and Netscape and in these browsers the menu seems to work as expected. IE, however, give me an unwanted gap when accessing sublevels. How do I solve that problem? Hope some of you wizards out there can help me out :-) IE has a thing about whitespace around list items. Try removing it. eg, ulli.../liul Taa-daa. What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on? -Gandalf * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS Drop down menu - Bugfix IE
Hi Bent, ...The menu is tested in Opera, Firefox and Netscape and in these browsers the menu seems to work as expected. IE, however, give me an unwanted gap when accessing sublevels. How do I solve that problem? Hope some of you wizards out there can help me out :-) IE has a thing about whitespace around list items. Try removing it. eg, ulli.../liul Taa-daa. What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on? -Gandalf * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS Drop down menu - Bugfix IE
Hi Bent, ...The menu is tested in Opera, Firefox and Netscape and in these browsers the menu seems to work as expected. IE, however, give me an unwanted gap when accessing sublevels. How do I solve that problem? Hope some of you wizards out there can help me out :-) IE has a thing about whitespace around list items. Try removing it. eg, ulli.../liul Taa-daa. What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on? -Gandalf * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index
Ted Drake wrote: For those of you that have put together a chart of access keys for your sitewide navigation, do you have any good suggestions? Has anyone written a good story on the approach and maybe even listed a set of default access keys to keep the web fairly universal? Hi Ted You can find what Joe Clark has to say on the subject here: http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter08.html#h2-3090 I design within the public sector and so use the UK government guidelines: http://e-government.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/Resources/WebGuidelinesArticle/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=419chk=C7zlV4. Somewhere in there is a list of suggested accesskeys. As an example, here's the URL to the Equal Web site I'm responsible for: http://www.equal.ecotec.co.uk/access/ Hope that's a start. Owen This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information contained in this communication is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and others authorised to receive it. If you are not the intended recipient you should not disclose, copy, distribute or take action on the contents of this information, except for the purpose of delivery to the addressee. Any unauthorised use is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by email immediately and delete the message from your computer. ECOTEC Research Consulting Limited Registered in England No. 1650169 Registered Office: Priestley House, 28-34 Albert Street, Birmingham, B4 7UD, UK Tel: +44 (0)121 616 3600 http://www.ecotec.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] access keys and tab index
Hi Ted, After looking at numerous articles about accesskeys I came to the conclusion that accesskeys are more bad than good. The only accesskey I use on my site is s for skip navigation (pretty much universal). Anyway this article explains it pretty good http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/12/29/i_do_not_use/ Kim Ted Drake wrote: I just had an appointment reminder pop-up on my outlook. Today is the day that I'm supposed to put together a list of access keys to use on our web site and the tab index on our forms. For those of you that have put together a chart of access keys for your sitewide navigation, do you have any good suggestions? Has anyone written a good story on the approach and maybe even listed a set of default access keys to keep the web fairly universal? Thanks for the help to this plaintive cry for help. By the way, I just finished combining sliding doors with a big ol' sprite that includes all of my site's navigation and background elements. I haven't fine-tuned it but will post it when it's done. The sticking point is the right side of the tab when I can't use 100% as the right side. If you've done sliding doors ala alistapart, this ramble may make some sense. Ted www.superiorpixelw.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * -- Med venlig hilsen Mouseriders.dk Kim K Jonsson * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS Drop down menu - Bugfix IE
Hi again, Ben! I'm aware of the problem with list items, and it sucks... But the markup (http://www.regnskapsbyraet.no/sider/designmal.php) can't be changed in order for the menu to work. So the changes has to be made in the stylesheet (http://www.regnskapsbyraet.no/sider/global.css) So - is there some way of tricking IE for this excact type of listmenu? Thank you for your time :-) Best regards, Bent Inge Høiås - Original Message - From: Ben Bishop [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS Drop down menu - Bugfix IE Hi Bent, ...The menu is tested in Opera, Firefox and Netscape and in these browsers the menu seems to work as expected. IE, however, give me an unwanted gap when accessing sublevels. How do I solve that problem? Hope some of you wizards out there can help me out :-) IE has a thing about whitespace around list items. Try removing it. eg, ulli.../liul Taa-daa. What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on? -Gandalf * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] access keys and tab index
Hi Ted I've steered clear of access keys as they cause some problems on Safari etc. After seeing a screen reader in action at a previous WSG meeting in Sydney there are some much better ways it has to directly access content on a page (e.g list links, list headings etc). Cheers James Ted Drake wrote: Here is that list. Listed below is the recommended UK Government accesskeys standard: S - Skip navigation 1 - Home page 2 - What's new 3 - Site map 4 - Search 5 - Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) 6 - Help 7 - Complaints procedure 8 - Terms and conditions 9 - Feedback form 0 - Access key details I think it's rather ironic that the access keys don't work on the page that lists them. Ted -Original Message- From: Owen Gregory [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 8:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index Ted Drake wrote: For those of you that have put together a chart of access keys for your sitewide navigation, do you have any good suggestions? Has anyone written a good story on the approach and maybe even listed a set of default access keys to keep the web fairly universal? Hi Ted You can find what Joe Clark has to say on the subject here: http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter08.html#h2-3090 I design within the public sector and so use the UK government guidelines: http://e-government.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/Resources/WebGuidelinesArticle/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=419chk=C7zlV4. Somewhere in there is a list of suggested accesskeys. As an example, here's the URL to the Equal Web site I'm responsible for: http://www.equal.ecotec.co.uk/access/ Hope that's a start. Owen This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information contained in this communication is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and others authorised to receive it. If you are not the intended recipient you should not disclose, copy, distribute or take action on the contents of this information, except for the purpose of delivery to the addressee. Any unauthorised use is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by email immediately and delete the message from your computer. ECOTEC Research Consulting Limited Registered in England No. 1650169 Registered Office: Priestley House, 28-34 Albert Street, Birmingham, B4 7UD, UK Tel: +44 (0)121 616 3600 http://www.ecotec.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] access keys and tab index
Hi ted, recommend you read (if you haven't already) this article More reasons why we don't use accesskeys: http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37 with regards Steven Faulkner Web Accessibility Consultant National Information Library Service (NILS) 454 Glenferrie Road Kooyong Victoria 3144 Phone: (613) 9864 9281 Fax: (613) 9864 9210 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] National Information Library Service A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS Drop down menu - Bugfix IE
On Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004, at 02:04 Australia/Sydney, Siteman DA -
Bent Inge wrote:
I'm aware of the problem with list items, and it sucks... But the
markup
(http://www.regnskapsbyraet.no/sider/designmal.php) can't be changed in
order for the menu to work. So the changes has to be made in the
stylesheet
(http://www.regnskapsbyraet.no/sider/global.css)
So - is there some way of tricking IE for this excact type of listmenu?
Have you tried {whitespace: nowrap;} on the offending ul?
Nick
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
Re: [WSG] CSS Drop down menu - Bugfix IE
On Jul 28, 2004, at 1:04 am, Siteman DA - Bent Inge wrote:
I'm aware of the problem with list items, and it sucks... But the
markup
(http://www.regnskapsbyraet.no/sider/designmal.php) can't be changed in
order for the menu to work. So the changes has to be made in the
stylesheet
(http://www.regnskapsbyraet.no/sider/global.css)
So - is there some way of tricking IE for this excact type of listmenu?
li {float:left; width:100%; clear:both}. But this is better hidden from
other browsers than IE win.
Philippe
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/
code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index
I agree with what Derek says, and he sums it up nicely. I have been using accesskeys since WCAG1 came out mid 99, and can cause more usability problems that provides ease of accessibility. I even use span to underline the key letter to indicate the access key, which is the standard way to show an access key, and the feedback I got was that most people think there is some sort of browser display problem when they see it. They are used to seeing this type of thing in application software, but not on the web. In cases like this, when I get this type of feedback, I think users are right, because it ends up being too foreign an interface for them when deployed rarely, then on top of that, you have the erratic behaviour. If they associate erratic behaviour with your web site, then what impression are you giving (... those crazy accessibility people:-)). It also seems that users require accesskeys and use them in different ways on the web than are used by applications software. In applications software it is mainly used for hotkeys and navigation, whereas it seems that most users requiring them for accessibility would prefer that they be designated for prime operations, ie form navigation rather than site navigation. I'm not saying there is anything bad about accesskeys or the idea behind them, but the way they have been implemented by user agents ... (and also us designers) has created a bit of a mess. It's a pity. I still use them, but more and more sparingly. Mainly for forms. But I think this is a good idea that has to evolve somehow before it becomes reasonably usable. But maybe the implementation is just not suited to the web. Geoff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2004 9:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] access keys and tab index Hi ted, recommend you read (if you haven't already) this article More reasons why we don't use accesskeys: http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index
They are used to seeing this type of thing in application software, but not on the web. Geoff, from where I sit, I'd have to disagree. people are wanting more out of the web. clients are demanding more functionality in web development than just stuff to read and look pretty. F'instance we're currently re-writing a legacy client/server app for the web (in ColdFusion but we all wish we could afford Flex 'cos this would be so much easier). because of this, we have key listeners and tab indexes everywhere. Almost all of the app is made up of forms and reports. Because they are familiar to a windows environment, this has become a defacto standard. the apps' user base starts from office workers (with some computer skills) thru to teachers, students (as young as 8yo) and parents (with diminishing computing skills). it's a pain in the backside but it has to be done just my 2c worth barry.b -Original Message- From: Geoff Deering [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2004 12:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index I agree with what Derek says, and he sums it up nicely. I have been using accesskeys since WCAG1 came out mid 99, and can cause more usability problems that provides ease of accessibility. I even use span to underline the key letter to indicate the access key, which is the standard way to show an access key, and the feedback I got was that most people think there is some sort of browser display problem when they see it. They are used to seeing this type of thing in application software, but not on the web. In cases like this, when I get this type of feedback, I think users are right, because it ends up being too foreign an interface for them when deployed rarely, then on top of that, you have the erratic behaviour. If they associate erratic behaviour with your web site, then what impression are you giving (... those crazy accessibility people:-)). It also seems that users require accesskeys and use them in different ways on the web than are used by applications software. In applications software it is mainly used for hotkeys and navigation, whereas it seems that most users requiring them for accessibility would prefer that they be designated for prime operations, ie form navigation rather than site navigation. I'm not saying there is anything bad about accesskeys or the idea behind them, but the way they have been implemented by user agents ... (and also us designers) has created a bit of a mess. It's a pity. I still use them, but more and more sparingly. Mainly for forms. But I think this is a good idea that has to evolve somehow before it becomes reasonably usable. But maybe the implementation is just not suited to the web. Geoff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2004 9:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] access keys and tab index Hi ted, recommend you read (if you haven't already) this article More reasons why we don't use accesskeys: http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index
Hi Barrie, I agree with what you are saying, but the problems accesskeys cause is too much of a headache for the time invested. How have you assigned your keys? Do they clash with default hot keys of the major screen reading user agents? Have you gone through all this carefully? What about the problems users have distinguishing between when the browser toolbar or the canvas has the focus? This can lead to triggering tool events rather than onscreen events when common keys are used? Have you run a thorough testing suite on these designs, or is your design based on best of intention? I'm not being critical, but a lot of us have built great stuff, standard compliant, only to find out it screws up something terrible in the real world. One of the big problems is that the WCAG-GL never researched this properly and recommended a set of standard keys (to my knowledge), thus everyone went their own way. I'm not condemning the people that developed WCAG, they did a great job, but this particular area did not evolve into the fantastic feature it was meant to be. They tried to work with user agents in this area, but everyone had their own agenda. If you are using key listeners that is different, but it opens up a different set of areas that need to be addressed. Tab indexes are something different, and that pretty much has a standard set of behaviours across application software and the web. If your usability testing has confirmed your design, then you have a successful implementation, and I hope you can share that with us, because we all need to see ways to implement these things that aid users and don't hinder them. Geoff -Original Message- From: Of Barry Beattie They are used to seeing this type of thing in application software, but not on the web. Geoff, from where I sit, I'd have to disagree. people are wanting more out of the web. clients are demanding more functionality in web development than just stuff to read and look pretty. F'instance we're currently re-writing a legacy client/server app for the web (in ColdFusion but we all wish we could afford Flex 'cos this would be so much easier). because of this, we have key listeners and tab indexes everywhere. Almost all of the app is made up of forms and reports. Because they are familiar to a windows environment, this has become a defacto standard. the apps' user base starts from office workers (with some computer skills) thru to teachers, students (as young as 8yo) and parents (with diminishing computing skills). it's a pain in the backside but it has to be done just my 2c worth barry.b -Original Message- From: Geoff Deering [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2004 12:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index I agree with what Derek says, and he sums it up nicely. I have been using accesskeys since WCAG1 came out mid 99, and can cause more usability problems that provides ease of accessibility. I even use span to underline the key letter to indicate the access key, which is the standard way to show an access key, and the feedback I got was that most people think there is some sort of browser display problem when they see it. They are used to seeing this type of thing in application software, but not on the web. In cases like this, when I get this type of feedback, I think users are right, because it ends up being too foreign an interface for them when deployed rarely, then on top of that, you have the erratic behaviour. If they associate erratic behaviour with your web site, then what impression are you giving (... those crazy accessibility people:-)). It also seems that users require accesskeys and use them in different ways on the web than are used by applications software. In applications software it is mainly used for hotkeys and navigation, whereas it seems that most users requiring them for accessibility would prefer that they be designated for prime operations, ie form navigation rather than site navigation. I'm not saying there is anything bad about accesskeys or the idea behind them, but the way they have been implemented by user agents ... (and also us designers) has created a bit of a mess. It's a pity. I still use them, but more and more sparingly. Mainly for forms. But I think this is a good idea that has to evolve somehow before it becomes reasonably usable. But maybe the implementation is just not suited to the web. Geoff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2004 9:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] access keys and tab index Hi ted, recommend you read (if you haven't already) this article More reasons why we don't use accesskeys: http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37 * The
