date:20041126

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-26 Thread Kay Smoljak

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:57:29 +0800, Vicki Berry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I rarely even mention web standards to clients anymore unless they are
snip

Amen!

-- 
Kay Smoljak
http://kay.smoljak.com/
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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-26 Thread Andy Budd

Regarding charging - like anything, the more experienced you get the
faster you get so it's a bit silly to charge across a project on the
basis of time spent.
I agree with pretty much everything you've said apart from this.
Firstly I don't necessarily think that the more experienced you are the 
*faster* the project goes. In fact I'd say that the more experienced 
you are the longer certain things can take because you want to do them 
right. For instance your beginner web designer will probably do 
everything in Drewamweaver whereas I'll hand code pretty much 
everything.

Secondly, the better you get, the higher your daily rate. Sure you can 
do things faster but this is reflected in what you charge. I honestly 
wouldn't know where to start pricing a job if it wasn't based on time 
and materials. The whole trying to guess what the client is willing to 
spend approach just smacks of unprofessionalism to me, and makes 
clients wary of web designers in general.

Apart from that I totally agree that you don't need to sell web 
standards and accessibility. They should be part of your workflow, not 
an added service. What you should do is sell your clients on the 
business benefits you provide.

Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-26 Thread Vicki Berry

Oh I'm with you there, Andy!  I realised after I sent that email that
I could have put that better.  I agree that the rate you charge is in
many ways a reflection of your knowledge and experience, and that
knowledge and experience can lead you to put in more effort in some
ways.

I still think, though, that your knowledge and experience adds to the
value your client gets out of your web development service and whether
you work it out by a higher hourly rate or by perceived total value,
it's not important really.  But think of it like this - just say you
wrote a web application for a client.  Then another client comes along
and wants something similar.  Do you start from scratch?  Of course
not.  You'll adapt the previous app you built.  It might take you 5
hours instead of the 50 it took to develop the first app.  Do you only
charge for 5 hours?  No way.  You charge for value to the client...
that's the kind of thing I was thinking of.  I'm not a programmer but
that would equate to me spending half a lifetime(!) researching web
standards and charging my first customer for all that time, then
charging subsequent customers by the hour (thus a pittance) because it
took me less time

Before I tie myself into too many more knots - I think we're both
saying the same thing in different ways.  (I'm still trying to think
of a way to put it better. LOL.)

:-)

Vicki.  :-)


Andy Budd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Regarding charging - like anything, the more experienced you get the
  faster you get so it's a bit silly to charge across a project on the
  basis of time spent.
 
 I agree with pretty much everything you've said apart from this.
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[WSG] Mobile and Browser Emulators

2004-11-26 Thread Genau Junior




Hello Everybody

Can anyone, tell me where i can emulate my xhtml 
interface in a plenty of differents browsers, like pda´s, opera, konqueror, 
etc...?

I would appreciate, some links.


thanks.




Genau Lopes 
JúniorWebDesigner

Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors

2004-11-26 Thread Marilyn Langfeld

Hi folks,

As I said when I sent the first post, I thought it would be good to hear what an Adobe employee had to say about implementing CSS in their visual editor. especially in light of the discussion of searching to hire CSS-capable employees (especially designers).

I would think that most designers (as opposed to programmers) begin web work in a visual editor like Dreamweaver or GoLive. It's critical for those programs to not only support CSS, but to have at least a CSS track, so that you can easily design in CSS. I've left feedback at the GoLive forum saying just that. On the other hand, the newest version of GoLive has a reworked and very usable CSS editor and preview. The only thing I've found it doesn't like is CSS shorthand.

I've been a print designer for many years and only became interested in web design when CSS became really usable (I use styles extensively in print design, so CSS made sense to me immediately). And, like many folks, I got GoLive as a free extra in the Creative Suite.

I was interested in John's (Adobe guy) comment because I never heard that there might be any problems implementing css in a visual editor. I don't have any answers, but I thought it might stimulate someone here to think on it.

PS, my site needs help, but I'm too busy finishing up a 120 page print project at the moment to work on it. I know I need to work on font size (in pixels now), and class declarations, content on the homepage, table for main navigation, etc. I'll be asking for your help after I give it another go in December (in case you take a look and figure I'm pretty bad). And it's my first website.

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